Introducing the Polearm

Lynx7386

I updated the original post with some suggestions that have been posted and discussed in pages 1-4 of this thread. Most notably, I altered a couple actives/passives to be a little more straightforward, reduced the weapon types from Spears/Longhammers/Poleaxes to just Polearms and Spears, added an integrated 20% accuracy penalty with light and heavy attacks when attacking targets at less than 5 meter range, and added a passive that increases damage by 20% when attacking targets at greater than 8 meter range.

Here's the new writeup (also edited into the first post of the thread):

The Polearm Skill Line
(NOTE: This is an updated/edited version based on replies)

Polearm Weapon Types (Crafted via Woodworking):

Spears:
-Includes all weapons with a spike or straight blade affixed to the pole.

Polearms:
-Includes all weapons with a hammer, axe, or curved blade affixed to the pole.

Note: Spears and Polearms are akin to swords/maces/axes being used in the 2h or dual wield weapon lines. They share identical stats, but have different appearances and effects based on passives in the polearm skill tree.



Combat Mechanics:
-Light and Heavy attacks with polearms have a base attack range of 10, which gives them slightly longer range than attacks with 2handed weapons currently.
-Light and Heavy attacks with polearms suffer a base 20% miss chance when attacking opponents at 5 range or less (5 range is what 1handed and dual wield skills/attacks are set at).

Active Skills

1. Spinning Slash

Spoiler

Cast Time: 1 second
Range: 10
Target Style: Point Blank Area of Effect

Description:
Strike at all nearby targets, dealing moderate damage.

Morph 1: Sweep
New Effect: Knocks down all damaged targets for 1 second.

Morph 2: Reap
New Effect: Causes all damaged targets to bleed for additional damage over 6 seconds. Targets that are already bleeding instead take additional damage when struck by Reap.

2. Thrust

Spoiler

Cast Time: Instant
Range: 10
Target Style: Single Target

Description:
Stab your target, dealing moderate damage. Thrust ignores 50% of your target's armor rating.

Morph 1: Gore
New Effect: Target bleeds for additional damage over 6 seconds. If the target is already bleeding, the target will instead take additional damage when struck by Gore.

Morph 2: Skewer
New Effect: Ability now ignores 100% of target's armor rating.

3. Overhead Strike

Spoiler

Cast Time: 1 second
Range: 10
Target Style: Single Target

Description:
Bring your weapon down on your target, dealing heavy damage.

Morph 1: Pulverize
New Effect: Gains up to 100% increased critical strike damage, based on your target's health loss.

Morph 2: Smash
New Effect: Deals 50% splash damage to all enemies within 5 range of your target.

4. Overpower

Spoiler

Cast Time: Instant
Range: 10
Target Style: Frontal Cone Area of Effect

Description:
A quick slash that deals light damage to enemies in front of you. All damaged targets are kncoked back 5 range.

Morph 1: Overwhelm
New Effect: For 4 seconds after using Overwhelm, your weapon damage and critical strike chance are increased by 15%.

Morph 2: Zeal
New Effect: Activating zeal a second time allows a follow up attack that knocks down all enemies in front of you.

5. Fend

Spoiler

Cast Time: Instant
Range: N/A
Target: Self Buff

Description:
While Slotted - you may equip a shield in your off hand while wielding a spear or polearm.
When Activated - For 15 seconds, reduce blocking cost by 50% and increase blocking mitigation by 50%.

Morph 1: Counterattack
New Effect: While blocking, return 30% damage to melee attackers.

Morph 2: Ward
New Effect: While blocking, take 50% less damage from projectiles and spells.

Passive Skills

1. Deadly Reach:
(With a Polearm or Spear equipped)
Polearm abilities, light attacks, and heavy attacks deal 10% / 20% additional damage to enemies further than 8 range.

2. Polearm Mastery:
(With a Polearm or Spear equipped)
Reduces the stamina cost of polearm abilities by 10% / 20%.

3. Close Combat Training:
(With a Polearm or Spear equipped)
Reduces the accuracy penalty when using Light and Heavy attacks on targets closer than 5 range by 25% / 50%.
Additionally, provides a benefit based on the type of polearm you are wielding:
Spears gain 3% / 6% increased weapon critical strike chance.
Polearms gain 5% / 10% increased critical strike damage bonus.

4. Defensive Fighting:
(with a Polearm or Spear equipped)
Increases your armor and spell resistance by 5% / 10%.

5. Phalanx:
(with a Polearm or Spear equipped)
You gain 10% / 20% increased weapon damage when attacking mounted or large enemies.
Note: Large enemies include, but may not be limited to:

Spoiler

-Frost atronachs
-Storm atronachs
-Daedroth
-Spider Daedra
-Watchers
-Gargoyles
-Giants
-Bears
-Ogrim
-Dwemer Centurions

List of Changes from the original post:

-Base range of polearms adjusted to 10 for all attacks
-Reduced weapon types to Polearms and Spears (from Spears, Longhamers, and Poleaxes)
-Added 20% accuracy penalty to heavy attacks when opponent is at 5 range or less
-This accuracy penalty can be reduced to 10% with passives

Active Ability Changes:

-Thrust range increased to 10 (from 7)
-Thrust damage changed from 'heavy' to 'moderate'
-Thrust now ignores 50% of target's armor rating
-Impale (thrust morph) changed to Skewer: Now increases armor ignore to 100%

-Fend changed to Overpower
-Zeal (fend/overpower morph) changed from a double-attack to a followup style attack

-Parry changed to Fend
-Parry/Fend now allows the use of a shield in the offhand slot while using a polearm or spear (while slotted)
-Counterattack (parry/fend morph) now returns 30% damage to melee attackers while blocking with ability active
-Ward (parry/fend morph) now reduces damage taken from projectiles and spells by 50% while blocking with ability active

Passive Skill Changes:

-Removed Polearms to Plowshares
-Replaced Polearms to Plowshares with Deadly Reach
-Deadly reach increases light, heavy, and ability damage by 10/20% against targets further than 8 meters from you.

-Removed Martial Prowess
-Moved Polearm Mastery passive to slot 2, in place of martial prowess

-Added 'Close combat training'
-close combat training reduces the accuracy penalty against close targets
-close combat training provides 3/6% extra critical strike chance for spears, and 5/10% extra critical strike damage for polearms

-Removed Formation fighting
-Phalanx to fifth slot
-Added Defensive fighting to fourth slot
-Defensive fighting increases armor and spell resistance by 5/10% with a spear or polearm equipped

-Changed phalanx: now gives 10/20% increased weapon damage when attacking mounted targets or large targets



Old Post, with original abilities:

Spoiler

Welcome to this week's polearm post, including a host of new ideas scoured from the depths of these forums (and a few from zone chat, too!). As always, the preface:

Zenimax, we're tired of modern game developers having no idea what polearms are. They've been conveniently left out of just about every modern MMO or RPG for no apparent reason (other than the arguably apparent worldwide conspiracy against polearms, backed by the descendants of people who were killed by polearms and, thus, really really hate them. Boy some people can hold a grudge).

And, as always, the reasoning:

Polearms have been the most commonly used weapon in the history of warfare, ranging from the simplest sharpened stick wielded by an angry caveman to the intricate and ornate lances and glaives held by equally angry medieval nobles. Yes, that's right, even nobles and knights were known to, occasionally, favor a good pole weapon over a sword. Why, you ask? Because it's a more effective implement of death.

Swords have been romanticized heavily since the late medieval period and the advent of the arthurian mythos. Excalibur was the first of many infamous swords thrust into the minds of american viewers by holywood. Still, your typical sword is an officer's weapon: useful in close combat, but, aside from some specialized swords, they're really not designed for battlefield action. Take a trip back in time to any medieval or pre-medieval battlefield and you'll find all manner of longweapons, hammers, picks, axes, and crude farming implements turned into head-splattering weapons of mass mutilation, but you're unlikely to find a proper sword outside of the generals or kings directing the battle, and the chances of those swords ever being used to kill were incredibly low.

A pole weapon is, at it's simplest, a blade affixed to a long stick. This amazingly simple concept does a few very important things for the wielder:
1. The stick extends the reach of the blade. If you can hit your enemy and he cant hit you, that's a win for you. Gut the other fellow first.
2. The length of the weapon multiplies momentum and velocity when swung in an arc, creating vastly higher impact force than you would achieve with a shorter weapon. Even a fairly lightweight and dull polearm could pierce, smash, and slice open the steel armor of the era because of that force multiplier, whereas a sword or similar weapon would probably bounce off of your assailant and deal little to no real damage.
3. The haft of the weapon allows it to be used in a defensive manner more effectively than a smaller weapon. The balance point of a polearm also allows it to be maneuvered very quickly, despite its size, potentially allowing a skilled user to fend off multiple attackers at once.
4. Polearms, compared to swords or other "weapons of nobility", are simple to use. They're straightforward, dont require a lot of training to be deadly, and they can be easily maintained by troops (whereas swords take quite a lot of care and maintenance).

Even taking into account the vastly overwhelming focus arthurian mythos puts on swords as the "weapons of gods and kings", pre-medieval eras placed far simpler weapons in the hands of their deities. The most common weapons wielded by the greek, roman, and egyptian gods? Scepters, Spears (tridents, pikes, lances, etc.), and Bows. Swords didnt even come into the equation.

All that said, why do we have so many game developers that consider this weapon class an afterthought, something to be put on the back burner indefinitely? Surely it isnt the difficulty of animations for the weapon type, they're hardly more difficult than those used by swords or mauls. Different, perhaps, but not more difficult. Yet here we are, the players who long only to cleave and stab our way to victory with a mighty halberd, playing another game lacking our favorite weapons. I have, on occasion, been called masochistic for that.




Humor and ranting aside, on to the actual topic at hand, the polearm skill line. Introduced as an entirely seperate melee weapon skill line alongside the two handed, one handed and shield, and dual wield lines, polearms focus on doing what polearms do best: Area clearing and control and powerful, crushing, leverage-multiplying strikes.

To start off, the polearm weapon would come in three basic types, similar to the sword/mace/axe setup that the two handed and one handed weapon styles use. Overall these three polearm types are the same, but through passives they gain slightly different benefits.

All three types of polearms would be added under woodworking for crafting purposes, as currently woodworking only crafts 5 weapon types (compared to the 7 weapon types accessible to blacksmithing). I think we can all agree woodworking could use some love there.

The Three types of polearms:

1. The Spear While in the past the elder scrolls series has made spears 1-handed weapons, and I know a lot of us would love to use them in conjunction with our shields, the fact is that all weapons in a skill tree have to use the same animations and the same number of weapon slots. I hope to remedy this through passives, however.
The spear is the most straightforward pole weapon (get it, straight and pointy?). It's a shaft with a sharpened spike or blade at the dangerous end. Aesthetically, the spear weapon type in ESO would also incorporate polearms which use a straight or curved sword blade (i.e. glaives).
As far as spear models for this game, I imagine most would use the 1h sword blade model and affix the pole to it. Swervy blades for dunmer, flat-tipped blades for khajiit, scimitar-like blades for redguards, so on and so forth.

2. The Longhammer Probably the least well known of the polearm types, this was primarily a germanic weapon. A longhammer (also called a streithammer) is a polearm shaft with a hammer or sledge at the end, usually with a spike on top so that the weapon can still be used for stabbing. Longhammers take all the mind-crushing destructiveness of a mace or maul and multiply the impact force a dozen times over to mangle and pulverize armor and bones alike.
Longhammer models in this game would be pretty easy to work in - just take the head off of any two handed maul weapon and put it on a longer shaft.

3. The Poleaxe (or halberd) This type of polearm affixes a single or double axe blade to the end of the weapon, allowing for more powerful slices as opposed to stabbing or crushing attacks. That said, most halberds had a single axe head on one side, a sledge/hammer tip on the opposing side, and a spike on top of the weapon to allow versatility in attacks against opponents with varying armor types.
Poleaxe models in this game would, in most cases, use the blade of a battleaxe affixed to the shaft.




Before we get to the skills, there are a few details about polearm weapon types that set them aside from two handed weapons, or other weapon types in this game:

1. Attack Range
Polearms shall have a 7 meter light and heavy attack range, and a 10 meter range on most abilities unless otherwise specified. This capitalizes on one of the polearm's greatest strengths: reach, being able to out-range another melee opponent.

2. Cast Times
Because of their size, polearms inevitably move slower than smaller weapons. To represent this, most active attacks will have a psuedo cast time of about one second (similar to uppercut from the 2handed line). However, this is not an actual cast time - it cannot be bashed to interrupt, or blocked like a heavy attack to stun the user. It's simply a delay for the ability to take effect (and match up with the animation). The real downside here will be that you cannot block while attacking.



Now on to the active skills for the polearm weapon skill line:

1. Spinning Slash
Cast: 1 second
Range: 10 meters
Target Style: Point blank AoE
The most simple attack, and the first one you get your bloody polearm-loving hands on, spinning slash is literally that: A 360 degree spin attack that damages all enemies within a 10 meter circle around your character.
Morph 1: Sweep
New Effect: Knocks down all affected targets for 1 second. This adds some control to the ability, increasing survivability in AoE damage situations.
Morph 2: Reap
New Effect: Applies a bleed damage-over-time effect to all enemies within range. If enemies are already bleeding, deals additional damage instead. That second part is important: you cant spam DoTs in this game, and that's one thing that makes abilities like cleave very sub-par for damage dealing. So, instead of simply overwriting itself constantly, Reap will simply deal additional damage to enemies that are already effected by bleed, making it a little more spam-friendly.

2. Thrust
Cast: Instant
Range: 7 meters
Target Style: Single target
Thrust is your basic one on one go-to damage ability. Stab your target, dealing heavy damage. Simple, yea?
Morph 1: Impale
New Effect: Gains increased damage against low-health targets, up to 300% vs targets at 25% or lower health. This gives you access to an execute, if your class doesnt offer something to use as an alternative.
Morph 2: Gore
New Effect: Causes your target to bleed for additional damage over time. If the target is already bleeding, deals increased damage instead. Similar to reap, this is lets you stick a DoT to your target and then keep using the same ability - but instead of constantly overwriting your own DoT, you'll simply do extra damage as long as the DoT lasts.

3. Overhead Strike
Cast: 1 second
Range: 7 meters
Target Style: Single Target
An arcing overhead slash down onto your opponent's brainpan, dealing massive burst damage.
Morph 1: Smash
New Effect: Deals 50% splash damage to two additional enemies within 5 meters of the target. This gives you a fairly decent bit of splash AoE while you're beating the boss' skull in.
Morph 2: Pulverize
New Effect: Gains up to 100% increased critical strike damage, based on your target's health loss. Essentially if the target is at 90% health, you gain 10% crit damage bonus. If the target is at 10% health, you gain 90% crit damage bonus. Note that this ability still has to crit in order to get that bonus, so you're relying on outside factors there, but this would provide absolutely massive single target damage when attacking a low health target and using high weapon crit gear. Essentially an alternate execute option to impale.

4. Fend
Cast: Instant
Range: 10 meters
Target style: Frontal Cone AoE
Fend off your enemies with a quick, horizontal forward slash. This ability deals light damage but knocks back enemies 5 meters, allowing you to gain some breathing room against close quarters combatants like dual wielders.
Morph 1: Overwhelm
New Effect: Gain increased weapon power and critical chance for 4 seconds after using the ability. Knock your opponents back and then slam into them with something else for high damage.
Morph 2: Zeal
New Effect: Slash twice instead of once, knocking enemies back with the first attack and knocking them down with the second. Deals additional damage due to the extra slash, and provides some extra control with the knockdown.

5. Parry
Cast: Instant
Range: N/A
Target Style: Self, Buff
For 15 seconds, reduces blocking cost by 50% and increases block mitigation by 50%. This incorporates the defensive nature of the polearm, a weapon which can practically be used to block and attack simultaneously due to it's length.
Morph 1: Counterattack
New Effect: Blocking a heavy attack while the ability is active marks the target for a counterattack for 5 seconds, increasing the damage of your next attack against that target.
Morph 2: Ward
New Effect: While the ability is active, you take reduced damage from all attacks.


So, through active abilities we cover:
-AoE Damage
-Executes
-Single Target Burst damage
-Control/Knockdowns
-Defense

Now we get on to the new and interesting passives that the skill line offers:


Passive 1: Polearms to Plowshares
Representing the fact that a majority of polearms were actually crude weapons converted from farming implements, this ability increases your out of combat health, stamina, and magicka regeneration while wielding a polearm weapon.

Passive 2: Martial Prowess
Provides an effect based on the type of polearm you are using:
--While wielding a Spear, you gain the ability to equip a shield in your off hand. While doing so, your polearm abilities, light attacks, and heavy attacks deal 40/20% less damage. This is to appease those crowds that want to wield a spear and shield.
--While wielding a Longhammer, your polearm abilities bypass 15/30% of the target's armor rating. This follows the armor-crushing nature of hammer weapons.
--While wielding a Poleaxe/Halberd, the bleed effect of gore and reap deal 10/20% additional damage, and the additional damage against already bleeding targets is increased by 10/20%.

With the above passive set, obviously you'd be pushed towards spears if you want to be more tanky/survivable, longhammers if you're fighting heavily armored opponents (and hopefully they get armor ratings fixed for npcs), and poleaxes/halberds for straight damage dealing.

Passive 3: Polearm Mastery
Reduces the stamina cost of polearm abilities by 10/20%. No difference here from the same passives in other melee weapon trees.

Passive 4: Phalanx
You gain 1/2% increased critical strike chance, critical strike damage, and weapon power for each ally within 15 meters that is also wielding a polearm type weapon, up to 10% maximum.

Passive 5: Formation Fighting
You gain 2/4% increased armor and spell resistance for each ally within 15 meters that is also wielding a polearm type weapon, up to 20% maximum.

These last two passives encourage the formation combat that polearms are well known for throughout history by providing stat boosts for each other polearm-wielder within a fair distance. Of course, this might cause groups to start all wielding polearms, but that'd be great yea? For those of us that love polearms, at least =P

Shizashane

Very nice Idea, ever since Morrowind I was let down when the next game didn't have spears. You got the distance and the melee. I also would like to think that if they bring spears in, spear wielders would have an upper hand against mounted foes if mounted combat comes into play. Its good to see so many spear lovers out there!

Malpherian

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The Polearm Skill Line
(NOTE: This is an updated/edited version based on replies)

Stuff

[/spoiler]

The main issue I see with this is that, No one would use any weapon except these, as the abilities of these "polearms" are FAR superior to ANY weapon line currently in game.....

Which is sad. But yea if the other weapon skill lines were brought into line with the above polearms, I'd be all for this.

Lynx7386

Malpherian wrote: »

show previous quotes

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The Polearm Skill Line
(NOTE: This is an updated/edited version based on replies)

Stuff

[/spoiler]

show previous quotes

The main issue I see with this is that, No one would use any weapon except these, as the abilities of these "polearms" are FAR superior to ANY weapon line currently in game.....

Which is sad. But yea if the other weapon skill lines were brought into line with the above polearms, I'd be all for this.

I agree that the other weapon lines still need improving, especially 2handed, but how can you claim what I've suggested is overpowered when no hard numbers were really given?

Itoq

Already in game.

Darn. Post image fail.

Polearm

Dimitrie

just saying that fend ability on a DK tank theres no way to beat it. block that much damage able to carry a shield with the rest of the abilities. NO way

ArRashid

FrenchTickler wrote: »

just saying that fend ability on a DK tank theres no way to beat it. block that much damage able to carry a shield with the rest of the abilities. NO way

I think it's ment that you'll be able to equip a shield, but not actually gain 1h/s abilities and passives - only increased armor and 1 more set item. Having access to both would indeed be too OP.

I have just one thing to add - this weapon will have to suffice for everything, because with that atypic range, you'd have to use ranged class skills (or non-damage skills) with it for them to work, or go into "ineffective" range to use them.

Lynx7386

ArRashid wrote: »

show previous quotes

FrenchTickler wrote: »

just saying that fend ability on a DK tank theres no way to beat it. block that much damage able to carry a shield with the rest of the abilities. NO way

I think it's ment that you'll be able to equip a shield, but not actually gain 1h/s abilities and passives - only increased armor and 1 more set item. Having access to both would indeed be too OP.

I have just one thing to add - this weapon will have to suffice for everything, because with that atypic range, you'd have to use ranged class skills (or non-damage skills) with it for them to work, or go into "ineffective" range to use them.

Correct, you can equip the shield with the polearm/spear, but you dont actually get any of the 1h+shield passives or active abilities, just an armor boost.

Lynx7386

Wonder what caused the forum page for this thread to go all wonky...

Antirob

Probably having a excellent quality thread caused it to implode on its self.
*Edit* Would be nice to see if a skill like fend or a weapon skill line ult would add the ability for someone using a spear and shield to create a Phalanx. Imagine two groups finding each other in the field and one of the teams decides to initiate the fight. While team A is rushing team B sees them and tells their tanks to form a line 2 people deep. Right as team A is about to hit them Teams b front line activates the ability/ult giving them enemyVSenemy collision stopping them in their tracks. While they're occupied/stunned from the spears being in them/receiving a dot from being in the spears "box of aoe" or something like that Team B tells there second line (the reasoning behind having a line 2 people deep) to go on either sides of the enemy trapping them in a U or a box. While they do this, Team A is being pelted by spear shards, volleys mage ruins, etc and are decimated.

this could also be used in keep defense and the strategy would be similar to the one above but instead they can be countered by a ram. After a ram takes down a door, the first 6 or so players that hit by the ram that happening to be doing the Phalanx would be knocked back.

Mud_Puppy

Please give flail.

ExiledKhallisi

Aeratus wrote: »

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Araflin wrote: »

Downside: Once you get past the business end of the polearm, it's useless.

The shorter and more manoeuvrable hand weapon wins in close / out of formation combat.

That would therefore imply you would have to have a minimum / maximum distance the polearm would be effective against. Great in formations.. rubbish without IF you get in it's range.

We'll if you're talking about realism, then the 2h axe and 2h mace in this game would be completely rubbish in actual combat. Same thing with dual wield.

Most 2h swords in this game are also probably rubbish because they are large and your character doesn't wield them realistically. Historically, the large 2h swords were wielded in a separated grip, with one hand on the grip, and the other hand below the parry hook. In this sense, zweihanders were used like polearms.

The actual 2h axes used in combat look nothing like those you see in fantasy games. The ones in fantasy games have no combat value at all.

If speaking of realism, a fighter with a polearm such as a naginata would beat someone who is armed with a fantasy-style 2h weapon or dual wield.

Wrong.

Naginata was a great weapon against samurai (wearing folded paper armor) and unarmored soldiers. The fact that it had a wood stock made it easily broken. Traditional spear or an armored soldier with a sword would destroy one of these fighters. A much better polearm would be the Halberd which had traditionally steel from the head through the stock. The Naginata was primarily for show as was the Glaive.

back to the axe. Why was the axe such a good weapon? It crush opponents in their armor. Most swords were made with cheap metals and did not fair well against armored targets for any extended use. Axes would cleave shields in half, Shatter soldier's hands while they wielded the shield. Another point... a Steel long axe could be used as a shield in combat and could deflect sword strikes where a sword could not really block the power behind the swing of a long axe. Traditionally, one who fought with an axe use a very cheap shot. They would go for your legs, or an overhead blow. Your sword or shield could not stop its momentum and the armor of those days, would not protect the blow.

Tomahawks (a one handed axe) is still to this day one of the most dangerous thrown weapons. I know this isnt a 2 handed axe..but dont hate on the axe. Weight+Speed=Power.

Dekkameron

Still waiting on those spears/polearms!

As has been said, nearly every game leaves out the number one used weapon for some reason yet includes multiple versions of one-handed weapons.