Introducing the Polearm

Baranon

Lynx.. Awesome post and tremendous thoughts and layout of skills for the Polearms! I support this wholeheartedly and can't wait until the day when we can wield such phenomenal weapons in Tamriel!

KingRebz

They should introduce whips as well

Madval

Fabulous ! Now I want polearm right now

Tamanous

StormbrookThunderb wrote: »

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/123068/new-weapons-types#latest.

I think it would work. It's not really a class specific weapon. But it should get huge buffs against horses. I also think lances would be a nice addition because then you could have horse warfare since everyone has horses for 1 g. (most people). Anyway you could also add horseback archery (for some races.) and lances as mentioned to balance that factor.

Horse combat doesn't even need to be complicated. Simply have a Lance skill line (built specifically to be an anti-zerg ball option) and a mounted archer skill line with perhaps only 1 or 2 skills sort of like armor. Players will obviously use a Gaited horse so they can take more damage before being dismounted (or perhaps add a new warhorse to the game) and the skill line passives should include an increase to damage you can take and reduce cc duration before and upon dismounted. This would allow skirmish and charges and when you are dismounted you cannot mount again until out of combat.

I'd love to see Lance mounted combat as an anti-zerg ball option. Have it's charge attack have no AOE cap and increased armor/spell penetration and AOE damage by how many enemies it hits in an area. If players want to stack 20 people on one spot they should pay dearly for it. If they still want a tightly packed group them

I do not see it unbalanced as long as players can still dismount mounted players and force them into infantry combat. Mounted combat could be added at the same time as polearm skill line but add bonus against mounted combat and/or charges in general that adds a bonus to your group increases with how many players are near them. This way the only real defense against mounted charges is to have more stamina based characters with polearm which diversifies the light armor + staff builds making up zerg balls in pvp as it stands. This along with changing aoe caps and other tweaks will help nerf aoe zerg-balls.

One thing that must be stressed is the need to keep a reason for 2h skill line. Make sure they specialize in different areas and one isn't way more powerful than the other.

Lynx7386

One thing that must be stressed is the need to keep a reason for 2h skill line. Make sure they specialize in different areas and one isn't way more powerful than the other.

Agreed there, personally I think that the 2handed line should focus a bit more on the battlemage stuff with arcane fighter. More of the abilities could have magic effects or synchronize better with enchantments. Of course, that may *** off the players wanting to stay away from magic yet use a 2handed weapon.

The 2handed skill line, in general, is very lacking in focus right now. It's a skill line that wants to do everything, but fails heavily at doing anything. It lacks sustained damage, yet also lacks burst because of how easy it is to avoid 2h's main burst damage attack. It tries to be tanky with cleave/brawler, but has no other benefits to damage reduction (and in the case of a templar, you end up being tankier using carve instead so you can spam radial sweep for the damage reduction). It's execute is subpar, and momentum just sucks all around. Right now about all 2h is good for is the charge.

I would really like to see 2handed get more sustainable, non-cast based damage. I think something akin to dual wield's flurry, where you make multiple strikes with your 2h weapon, would be great. Momentum should just be reworked entirely, maybe a berserker rage ability that boosts your damage output, with morphs that heal you each second (instead of just at the end of the effect) or make you immune to CC (instead of just at the cast).

Another option to give 2h more focus is to make -all- of it's attacks (cleave, critical charge, reverse slash, and uppercut) work in a cone aoe, that would make 2handed more of a cone-aoe focused damage set, while the polearm covers 360 aoe control and damage, dual wield covers single target damage, and 1h/shield covers tanking.

Lynx7386

Horse combat doesn't even need to be complicated. Simply have a Lance skill line (built specifically to be an anti-zerg ball option) and a mounted archer skill line with perhaps only 1 or 2 skills sort of like armor. Players will obviously use a Gaited horse so they can take more damage before being dismounted (or perhaps add a new warhorse to the game) and the skill line passives should include an increase to damage you can take and reduce cc duration before and upon dismounted. This would allow skirmish and charges and when you are dismounted you cannot mount again until out of combat.

I'd love to see Lance mounted combat as an anti-zerg ball option. Have it's charge attack have no AOE cap and increased armor/spell penetration and AOE damage by how many enemies it hits in an area. If players want to stack 20 people on one spot they should pay dearly for it. If they still want a tightly packed group them

I do not see it unbalanced as long as players can still dismount mounted players and force them into infantry combat. Mounted combat could be added at the same time as polearm skill line but add bonus against mounted combat and/or charges in general that adds a bonus to your group increases with how many players are near them. This way the only real defense against mounted charges is to have more stamina based characters with polearm which diversifies the light armor + staff builds making up zerg balls in pvp as it stands. This along with changing aoe caps and other tweaks will help nerf aoe zerg-balls.

Unfortunately I dont think it would work out well as an anti-zergball option, simply because zergballs always have someone using caltrops to dismount enemy players.

The best way, at the moment, to get rid of zergballs is to remove AoE caps so that they can be wiped out quickly by a small group of players. Force people to spread out to avoid AoE damage like they should, rather than encouraging them to cluster together for it. That's simple common sense right there.


As far as mounted combat, I honestly dont think we'll ever see it in this game.

shiva7663

The Spear of Bitter Mercy!

Selique

I am for a polearm skill line. Hell, any new weapon skill lines would be awesome. Keep the variety going strong.

Timsierramist

/signed

Some_Jerk

Introduce polearms or at LEAST spears, (most importantly spears!) as they were in morrowind!

Lynx7386

shiva7663 wrote: »

The Spear of Bitter Mercy!

From morrowind?

Ergele

Nice Idea, I have been thinking of lances/spears. Seriously they are all out of the rpgs/mmos these days.

Melian

It sounds pretty cool - just, as you laid it out, rather OP. Maybe it should have a minimum range for the sake of balance.

Lynx7386

Melian wrote: »

It sounds pretty cool - just, as you laid it out, rather OP. Maybe it should have a minimum range for the sake of balance.

Unfortunately, as stated before, a minimum range on a melee weapon causes a lot of issues, especially when you factor in latency.

Breg_Magol

NorthernFury wrote: »

show previous quotes

Maverick827 wrote: »

You ask why developers always leave out polearms, but you've already answered your own question: they're simple (read: boring) weapons used by common soldiers. Our characters are heroes.

Tell that to Leonidas of Sparta, and his .... Phalanx.

I begs your pardon? This is a G rated forum thank-ee very muchley ... my over-grown rug rats don't need no weirdo conceptuanalities peroculating through their ceberelum contrexts! I consider my comportament to be shocked at this vagrant display of barnality!

PlagueMonk

[quote="Lynx7386;123261
Zenimax, we're tired of modern game developers having no idea what polearms are. They've been conveniently left out of just about every modern MMO or RPG for no apparent reason (other than the arguably apparent worldwide conspiracy against polearms, backed by the descendants of people who were killed by polearms and, thus, really really hate them. Boy some people can hold a grudge).
[/quote]

So are you saying that DAoC doesn't count as a "modern" MMO?

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110526152749/camelotherald/images/6/60/Highlander_Armsman.jpg

In fact that's the Armsman classes preferred weapon.

I also believe WoW has polearms (but maybe they aren't "modern" either :P )

shiva7663

Lynx7386 wrote: »

show previous quotes

shiva7663 wrote: »

The Spear of Bitter Mercy!

From morrowind?

The Spear of Bitter Mercy has been a part of game lore since at least Battlespire.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

This thread seems to show spamming something endlessly, which is against the TOS gets you plaudits from ZOS moderators rather than the lock/warning such posts should get.

cuz_mike200

Why not add spears with a spear throw stamina ability?

rynth

/signed new weapons would be nice

also along with pole arm weapons, katana, crossbow

Lynx7386

So are you saying that DAoC doesn't count as a "modern" MMO?

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110526152749/camelotherald/images/6/60/Highlander_Armsman.jpg

In fact that's the Armsman classes preferred weapon.

I also believe WoW has polearms (but maybe they aren't "modern" either :P )

No, I really wouldnt consider DAOC (or WoW) Modern mmo's. They're a decade old at the least.

This thread seems to show spamming something endlessly, which is against the TOS gets you plaudits from ZOS moderators rather than the lock/warning such posts should get.

I'm sorry, are we taking moderator attention away from your nerf posts?

GnatB

Lynx7386 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sure, the whole angular momentum/length thing means it'll hit hard once you get it going, but on the same hand, it means it's harder to get going, harder to stop, and harder to change direction.

Realistically you'd have exactly the same issues using a two handed sword, mace, or battleaxe, yet we dont have those penalties applied to those weapons in this game.



Another common use of the polearm in history was to stick into an enemy's shield, causing the shield to be weighed down and useless to the opponent - he would be forced to drop his shield (the spear/javelin/polearm lodged in it) and proceed without that shield's protection, while the polearm wielder would typically swap to a shortsword or similar weapon at that point. So, does this mean we should give the polearm a huge bonus against targets with shields? No.

It's a game, some exceptions need to be made to keep things fun.

1. 2h sword, axe, maul aren't *nearly* as long as a typical polearm, so no, they wouldn't have the same issue. (particularly sword, where most of the weight *isn't* at the end) And if we're giving the polearm a gameplay dps advantage over them (and that's what I'm definitely suggesting) reduced accuracy in suboptimal conditions is the cost.
2. AFAIK only the Pilum was designed for that purpose. And, as you said, that would also deprive the wielder of the weapon. Not sure the combat mechanics of ESO would support a skill where once you attack you can't use the weapon you used for the next "X" minutes, other than to make pilum use a skill with a cooldown, and not an actual equipped weapon. Maybe something in the templar Aedric Spear line (gee, already named well) that would do -armor effect but have a long cooldown.
3. You don't think a weapon that specializing in anti-big monster (in a game with many of that) and anti-horse (if/when mounted combat comes out) would be fun/useful?

FlyingPenguin

Dark souls o_O

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

In case you didn't already know, there are a couple of soldiers sparring with polearms in the castle courtyard in Skywatch, Auridon. The animations look OK, and the weapons are a sort of curved-blade-on-a-stick implement - not a throwing spear, but not quite a halberd either.

Aeratus

Funny thing with the weapon swapping graphical glitch in 1.3 is that you can get your character to use a staff in melee (with either 1h or 2h animation) as if it is a polearm. I though it was pretty neat.

Nox_Aeterna

Aeratus wrote: »

Funny thing with the weapon swapping graphical glitch in 1.3 is that you can get your character to use a staff in melee (with either 1h or 2h animation) as if it is a polearm. I though it was pretty neat.

I got mine to use a staff , while it appeared i was actually dual wielding .

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

@Lynx7386‌ I personally love the idea of introducing a pole-arm weapon tree to the game. However having read your ideas I just feel as though they're falling short on a unique mechanical feel for them.

Firstly - pole arms have something of a 'sweet spot' for range - being dozens of times more powerful when hitting someone close to the end of the weapon's reach.

An overhead swing with a 10Kg poleaxe for example will exert close to a tonne of force in this sweet spot, down to maybe only 200 kg half way in. An example skill set to go with this sweetspot mechanic might look like this

1: Spinning slash - yep a clone of what you suggested (40% more damage in the sweetspot of 7-10 meters)

Morph one: Reap: Enemies in the sweet spot take 1 additional damage per 6/5/4/3 health they are missing.

Morph 2: Sweep all enemies are knocked back 4 meters- enemies in the sweetspot are instead knocked over.

2: Fend and lunge: 1 second cast time. A two part attack, one each of swinging and thrusting. Normally will swing with arm of weapon as a low damage blunt attack to push the enemy into the 7-10 meter sweet spot and then stick em with the pointy end. If already in the sweetspot will lunge first and then follow it up with a devastating overhead swing that always crits.

Morph one: Fending stance: The knock back effect now grants 100% dodge rating for the cast time.
Morph two: Tactical fighter: The overhead swing now does even more damage and if the target is not in sweetspot there is a 5/10/15/20% chance that you will leap back to use the sweetspot buffed ability.

3: Spikewall: toggle - when toggled on assume a defensive stance that grants a 50% effective as active blocking damage reduction and drastically reduces the stamina cost of abilities - sweet spot bonuses are reduced in effectiveness by 20%, sweet spot range is now 3-5 meters and cannot move whilst active. Attacks received from the new sweetspot have a 10% chance to be countered with a small amount of damage and a bleed.
Morph one: Stonewall: Immune to cc while active
Morph two: Phalanx of respite: Regenerate stamina as though out of combat while active.

4: Counter attack: For a large stamina cost can in a much shorter time frame than standard means interrupt / block appropriate channeled abilities and heavy attack the now off balance target. Sweet spot bonus: always crits.

Morph one: Efficient counter attack: Reduced stamina cost
Morph two: My turn! +100% to critical damage bonus.

5: Hemorrhaging strikes: Self buff - for 10 seconds all attacks and abilities apply a bleed effect on the enemy - the duration can not be refreshed however sweet spot attacks can apply bleed stacks indefinitely.

Deep wounds: Sweet spot strikes now apply two stacks.
Rending strikes: Sweet spot strikes now also refresh the duration of the bleed.

Chubbaz

I'm on the fence about this one.

I like the concept and all but how will this stop you getting Bat Swarmed spam in PvP?

Lynx7386

Chubbaz wrote: »

I'm on the fence about this one.

I like the concept and all but how will this stop you getting Bat Swarmed spam in PvP?

Why does a new weapon line have to have anything to do with batswarm?

Lynx7386

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

@Lynx7386‌ I personally love the idea of introducing a pole-arm weapon tree to the game. However having read your ideas I just feel as though they're falling short on a unique mechanical feel for them.

Firstly - pole arms have something of a 'sweet spot' for range - being dozens of times more powerful when hitting someone close to the end of the weapon's reach.

An overhead swing with a 10Kg poleaxe for example will exert close to a tonne of force in this sweet spot, down to maybe only 200 kg half way in. An example skill set to go with this sweetspot mechanic might look like this

1: Spinning slash - yep a clone of what you suggested (40% more damage in the sweetspot of 7-10 meters)

Morph one: Reap: Enemies in the sweet spot take 1 additional damage per 6/5/4/3 health they are missing.

Morph 2: Sweep all enemies are knocked back 4 meters- enemies in the sweetspot are instead knocked over.

2: Fend and lunge: 1 second cast time. A two part attack, one each of swinging and thrusting. Normally will swing with arm of weapon as a low damage blunt attack to push the enemy into the 7-10 meter sweet spot and then stick em with the pointy end. If already in the sweetspot will lunge first and then follow it up with a devastating overhead swing that always crits.

Morph one: Fending stance: The knock back effect now grants 100% dodge rating for the cast time.
Morph two: Tactical fighter: The overhead swing now does even more damage and if the target is not in sweetspot there is a 5/10/15/20% chance that you will leap back to use the sweetspot buffed ability.

3: Spikewall: toggle - when toggled on assume a defensive stance that grants a 50% effective as active blocking damage reduction and drastically reduces the stamina cost of abilities - sweet spot bonuses are reduced in effectiveness by 20%, sweet spot range is now 3-5 meters and cannot move whilst active. Attacks received from the new sweetspot have a 10% chance to be countered with a small amount of damage and a bleed.
Morph one: Stonewall: Immune to cc while active
Morph two: Phalanx of respite: Regenerate stamina as though out of combat while active.

4: Counter attack: For a large stamina cost can in a much shorter time frame than standard means interrupt / block appropriate channeled abilities and heavy attack the now off balance target. Sweet spot bonus: always crits.

Morph one: Efficient counter attack: Reduced stamina cost
Morph two: My turn! +100% to critical damage bonus.

5: Hemorrhaging strikes: Self buff - for 10 seconds all attacks and abilities apply a bleed effect on the enemy - the duration can not be refreshed however sweet spot attacks can apply bleed stacks indefinitely.

Deep wounds: Sweet spot strikes now apply two stacks.
Rending strikes: Sweet spot strikes now also refresh the duration of the bleed.

Interesting concept, instead of a penalty at close range or a dead zone in which you cannot attack, you just get a bonus when hitting enemies further away. There's already a precedent for that as a passive in the bow skill line (you deal more damage to distant targets).

Would probably work better as a passive rather than an effect on each and every skill. Could just change one of the passives to "increases light and heavy attack damage and polearm ability damage by up to 40%, based on the distance of the target".

So, at 10m, you would do 40% more damage. At 5m or closer, you get no damage bonus. 6m = +10%, 7m = +20%, 8m = +30%, 9-10m = +40%