Elder Wars 2 Volume 3 (The Perfect AOE cap video)

Trayyacakes

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Take away AOE caps and you force these groups to spread out. The larger force will still win most of the time. Most of us, I won't say all because there is always a few, aren't asking for the removal of AOE caps, so we can defeat 50+ with 8 people. We want more diverse gameplay. Make the zerg spread out. Make people actually fear choke points. Give small stealth groups a chance to chip away at the zerg.

Ok so how would make sure that 7 people that clever enough just the right composition... sneak in... and murder a group of 80 people who are rallying up for a big battle... eg. with using spies.. or being there at the right time.

You know it would be possible to do such, though probably 'rare' (certainly would not mind to wipe 80 people or the most of them myself could be fun lol)

Surely someone in that group of 80 is running magelight yes? Surely they are also stealthed while they group to buff as well.

Also you put diminishing returns on the AOE. See this thread. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/121403/suggestion-ways-to-balance-aoe-abilities-without-an-arbitrary-target-caphttp://

It was written by @frosth.darkomenb16_ESO‌ not me, but he has gone through the trouble of listing a few ways have no caps, and still balance AOE.

Mage light is like 12 meters? and add the spy to the scenario... all the person has to do is to 'accidently' pop out of stealth as a beacon.... with 80 people around no one would probably notice that either... could pop stealth potions per 30 seconds though for being able to see more far out.. but eventually one will run out of pots as well.

I think the solution remain in other things, fix a bunch of small things which people probably would refere to nerfs, which it is not, for an instance all other weapon types and armor other than light armor having a severe buff up to it could do wonders for diversity.

Lower the cap of groups instead to 8 or 12 people only could be another actually better solution.

None of that changes the fact that blobbing will still be the best response to AOE.

At this point I'm not sure if you are A) trolling B ) clueless or C) someone who blobs.

If you buff the other armor types the only thing you could possibly change in the meta is there may be whirlwind spam along with pulsar spam in the blob.

If you ever have that many people stacking up they should always be at risk of AOEs. Why would that be a bad thing? besides if you have 80 people, that are blobbed, and there are diminishing returns on AOE as long as the 80 people are somewhat aware they will kill the bomb group before they lose everyone, unless the bomb group is like 20 people in which case sorry for you.

Krinaman

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Krinaman wrote: »

This video was taken during a complete and total lag fest where you couldn't hurt each other.

I left this spot to chase a scroll and literally ran through AD entire group from the back all the way to the front where the scroll carrier was completely solo and none of them could touch me.

All this video shows is that they need to fix their broken lag fest game.

And what was causing that lag.....

Go on..I'll wait for those hamsters to get to work.

What was causing the lag was more players in an area than the server can handle. This occurs when players are in a "zerg ball" like EP was on the flag. Or when there are many players spread out like AD running the scroll back.

Teargrants

@SBR_QuorTek
Your scenario is complete bunk. 80 people aren't going to be standing in one spot 'preparing' for anything, except for the multiraid TS guilds that are currently dominating the blob stack meta. If they still do that with no aoe cap, and take no precautions such as having scouts to keep a perimeter around them, then they deserve to get bombed and wiped by a smaller group.

Why? Because those stack groups have the coordination to set up scouts in stealth around their blob. That they don't have any reason to currently is yet another indictment against the dumbing down of PvP tactics that the aoe cap causes.

And please, lowering group caps would accomplish 0. Everyone is still in TS, and if say everyone wore the golden saint costume, it wouldn't be difficult to keep the blob going. Not to mention, lower group cap just hurts the pug groups that aren't in TS and have to coordinate through chat.

Xsorus

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Take away AOE caps and you force these groups to spread out. The larger force will still win most of the time. Most of us, I won't say all because there is always a few, aren't asking for the removal of AOE caps, so we can defeat 50+ with 8 people. We want more diverse gameplay. Make the zerg spread out. Make people actually fear choke points. Give small stealth groups a chance to chip away at the zerg.

Ok so how would make sure that 7 people that clever enough just the right composition... sneak in... and murder a group of 80 people who are rallying up for a big battle... eg. with using spies.. or being there at the right time.

You know it would be possible to do such, though probably 'rare' (certainly would not mind to wipe 80 people or the most of them myself could be fun lol)

First of all, if 7 people jump 80 people and kill them, They should be able to if those 80 people were stupid enough to clump in one spot.

Why that is such a travesty to some of you in terms of gameplay I will never guess, cept maybe you've been apart of the 80 that have no situational awareness.

Pretty much the entire timeline of DAOC's life worked that way, If you were stupid, and didn't spread, you died to AOE....

Bloody christ i'm surprised some of you aren't demanding Bosses in PVE not AOE you since ya seem to fear it from players so much.

SBR_QuorTek

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Take away AOE caps and you force these groups to spread out. The larger force will still win most of the time. Most of us, I won't say all because there is always a few, aren't asking for the removal of AOE caps, so we can defeat 50+ with 8 people. We want more diverse gameplay. Make the zerg spread out. Make people actually fear choke points. Give small stealth groups a chance to chip away at the zerg.

Ok so how would make sure that 7 people that clever enough just the right composition... sneak in... and murder a group of 80 people who are rallying up for a big battle... eg. with using spies.. or being there at the right time.

You know it would be possible to do such, though probably 'rare' (certainly would not mind to wipe 80 people or the most of them myself could be fun lol)

First of all, if 7 people jump 80 people and kill them, They should be able to if those 80 people were stupid enough to clump in one spot.

Why that is such a travesty to some of you in terms of gameplay I will never guess, cept maybe you've been apart of the 80 that have no situational awareness.

Pretty much the entire timeline of DAOC's life worked that way, If you were stupid, and didn't spread, you died to AOE....

Bloody christ i'm surprised some of you aren't demanding Bosses in PVE not AOE you since ya seem to fear it from players so much.

As for people rallying up, usually they are not standing that far apart... think of it like a sheep herd.... if you stand away from the group the wolf will snatch you.

I don't fear aoe I would not mind if it did hit all, but I also know problems it would cause since it is a skill based system... later on people would cry nerf this or that ability... or why can't I hit anything once your miss chance is increased by 30%... or why can't I damage anything when some people constantly keep on putting up group damage shields...

Simple solution to the current system... restrict groups to max 8 or 12 people with current system, please leave DAOC/gw2 out of it.... don't care what they did in that game, want unique ways in TESO rather or different.... am fine with bosses/mobs doing AOE in PvE by the way... but the max limits to groups in that is 4 or12 people.

Morvul

Trayyacakes wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

All this video show is that they need to fix the lag... I find it interesting that no one actually threw aoes into the blob... it is not like it was moving at all and there is a bunch of ranged aoes that could be used for it.

Removing AOE caps would not be the answer though.

Other small fixes would be better, such as rapid maneuver ONLY provide speed buff, to use immoveable only users that has 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped and much much more.

Removing AOE caps would cause a big problem because some classes do not have this or that AOE thing as it is and those people would be the victims, also if something break and become totally OP aoe wise it would just be the same thing as with AOE caps enabled.

As it is we do not live in happy land where everyone will behave.

People were throwing AOE's into the blob, However...When you have the blob standing there, You're not killing it with AOE damage because its randomly hitting 6 people. I mean..We've had entire threads pointing out how completely moronic that notion is, and how throwing AOE's into this clump doesn't work, But you keep repeating it over and over....

Rapid Maneuver and Immoveable also wouldn't do a damn thing there, Because they weren't moving.

But being able to hit all.. all the time no matter amount of People do not seem OP to you? Just asking out of curiousity.

Rather look into the tendency of what people use, so many wear light armor... does it not occur that half the problem rely into that... improving the other types of armor as well as making restrictions to bonusses, meaning one would have to wear at least 5 of the given type to benefit from this and that.

I do not defend the 1 hit button strategy, I think it is *** as well.. but I think the problem should be fixed in other ways and also in ways so it is not like.. 'that is how they did it in daoc' or whichever else game, it should come down to.. 'this is how we do it in teso'

Wishing for more creative ways of playing the game and not like 'I fight guuuut... me use cluuub' ways AOE without caps would not solve any of that other than either quicker fights or severe abuse of AOE still lol.

AOE without a cap is only as OP as your opposition allows it to be. If they ball up you will hit all of them. If they spread out, you know not stand in red like games are suppose to work, than it isn't really that OP is it?

Also with the upcoming changes to CC DKs wouldn't be able to just rush in and drop a standard while spamming talons and win because you can't get rooted during your dodge roll and after 1.3 you will have a short immunity to roots afterwards.

If you leave the caps the stacking will continue. Change immovable to require 5 pcs of heavy and you have only changed 2 things.
1. 6 random people will now be negated because they won't have immovable to stop it, so they will cc break out of it instead. Not a game changer.
2. A dk will be able to chain pull one of those members out of the zerg, and he may die if you have enough coordination to focus him through his barrier and through all the rapid regens flying out that he will still be in range of.

It won't Make Volcanic rune suddenly awesome. They will have enough stam for break free sense they aren't spending it on immovable. The only thing it may change is they may require there templars slot Radiant Aura for more stam regen for more "Break Frees"

Take away AOE caps and you force these groups to spread out. The larger force will still win most of the time. Most of us, I won't say all because there is always a few, aren't asking for the removal of AOE caps, so we can defeat 50+ with 8 people. We want more diverse gameplay. Make the zerg spread out. Make people actually fear choke points. Give small stealth groups a chance to chip away at the zerg.

Zerg balling being the best response to AOE abilities is just dumb. It isn't logical. Why does anyone want a game that has those mechanics?

soooo much truth in that post!

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Take away AOE caps and you force these groups to spread out. The larger force will still win most of the time. Most of us, I won't say all because there is always a few, aren't asking for the removal of AOE caps, so we can defeat 50+ with 8 people. We want more diverse gameplay. Make the zerg spread out. Make people actually fear choke points. Give small stealth groups a chance to chip away at the zerg.

Ok so how would make sure that 7 people that clever enough just the right composition... sneak in... and murder a group of 80 people who are rallying up for a big battle... eg. with using spies.. or being there at the right time.

You know it would be possible to do such, though probably 'rare' (certainly would not mind to wipe 80 people or the most of them myself could be fun lol)

First of all, if 7 people jump 80 people and kill them, They should be able to if those 80 people were stupid enough to clump in one spot.

Why that is such a travesty to some of you in terms of gameplay I will never guess, cept maybe you've been apart of the 80 that have no situational awareness.

Pretty much the entire timeline of DAOC's life worked that way, If you were stupid, and didn't spread, you died to AOE....

Bloody christ i'm surprised some of you aren't demanding Bosses in PVE not AOE you since ya seem to fear it from players so much.

As for people rallying up, usually they are not standing that far apart... think of it like a sheep herd.... if you stand away from the group the wolf will snatch you.

I don't fear aoe I would not mind if it did hit all, but I also know problems it would cause since it is a skill based system... later on people would cry nerf this or that ability... or why can't I hit anything once your miss chance is increased by 30%... or why can't I damage anything when some people constantly keep on putting up group damage shields...

Simple solution to the current system... restrict groups to max 8 or 12 people with current system, please leave DAOC/gw2 out of it.... don't care what they did in that game, want unique ways in TESO rather or different.... am fine with bosses/mobs doing AOE in PvE by the way... but the max limits to groups in that is 4 or12 people.

It wouldn't be an issue to have balancing complaints after the removal of AoE caps because it would mean that there is at least progression towards a better game. Caps are just preventing evolutions because not all abilities are used properly because of it.

Yes, ESO needs a solution that is custom made, but looking elsewhere for inspiration is important.
gw2 and daoc are interesting examples of ways mechanics impacted player behaviours in the past. It is useful to be aware of this to be able to interpret what is currently happening and what could be done to prevent it.

Even if we didn't know about those games, and operated in a vaccuum, it would still be easy to know why and how Aoe caps are an issue by using simple maths.

Simply put, a group gets a passive damage mitigation as individual characters gain invulnerability at random. If you take a group of 40, 85% of them are invulnerable at any single point in time. And as group size increase, it gets worst. A group of 60 has 90% passive damage mitigation.

This here is the sad example of a dominant strategy, one that just makes every other game style non viable.

Fortunately, there are ways of balancing aoe that do not use caps at all.
PS: Thanks @Trayyacakes to plug the thread in my signature.

hamon

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

All this video show is that they need to fix the lag... I find it interesting that no one actually threw aoes into the blob... it is not like it was moving at all and there is a bunch of ranged aoes that could be used for it.

.

what effective ranged aoes do we have? templar shards is weak, volley is weak. nova is so high in ultimate cost nobody uses it. plus lag makes it difficult to actually fire.

fair enough if we had proper ranged aoes like fireballs and chain lighning. but this game lacks it severely

Samadhi

hamon wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

All this video show is that they need to fix the lag... I find it interesting that no one actually threw aoes into the blob... it is not like it was moving at all and there is a bunch of ranged aoes that could be used for it.

.

what effective ranged aoes do we have? templar shards is weak, volley is weak. nova is so high in ultimate cost nobody uses it. plus lag makes it difficult to actually fire.

fair enough if we had proper ranged aoes like fireballs and chain lighning. but this game lacks it severely

Chain Lighting is supposedly/potentially one of the skills that can be made in Spell Crafting when it is added.
Unfortunately, it would keep chaining through different targets in the zerg.

SBR_QuorTek

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Take away AOE caps and you force these groups to spread out. The larger force will still win most of the time. Most of us, I won't say all because there is always a few, aren't asking for the removal of AOE caps, so we can defeat 50+ with 8 people. We want more diverse gameplay. Make the zerg spread out. Make people actually fear choke points. Give small stealth groups a chance to chip away at the zerg.

Ok so how would make sure that 7 people that clever enough just the right composition... sneak in... and murder a group of 80 people who are rallying up for a big battle... eg. with using spies.. or being there at the right time.

You know it would be possible to do such, though probably 'rare' (certainly would not mind to wipe 80 people or the most of them myself could be fun lol)

First of all, if 7 people jump 80 people and kill them, They should be able to if those 80 people were stupid enough to clump in one spot.

Why that is such a travesty to some of you in terms of gameplay I will never guess, cept maybe you've been apart of the 80 that have no situational awareness.

Pretty much the entire timeline of DAOC's life worked that way, If you were stupid, and didn't spread, you died to AOE....

Bloody christ i'm surprised some of you aren't demanding Bosses in PVE not AOE you since ya seem to fear it from players so much.

As for people rallying up, usually they are not standing that far apart... think of it like a sheep herd.... if you stand away from the group the wolf will snatch you.

I don't fear aoe I would not mind if it did hit all, but I also know problems it would cause since it is a skill based system... later on people would cry nerf this or that ability... or why can't I hit anything once your miss chance is increased by 30%... or why can't I damage anything when some people constantly keep on putting up group damage shields...

Simple solution to the current system... restrict groups to max 8 or 12 people with current system, please leave DAOC/gw2 out of it.... don't care what they did in that game, want unique ways in TESO rather or different.... am fine with bosses/mobs doing AOE in PvE by the way... but the max limits to groups in that is 4 or12 people.

It wouldn't be an issue to have balancing complaints after the removal of AoE caps because it would mean that there is at least progression towards a better game. Caps are just preventing evolutions because not all abilities are used properly because of it.

Yes, ESO needs a solution that is custom made, but looking elsewhere for inspiration is important.
gw2 and daoc are interesting examples of ways mechanics impacted player behaviours in the past. It is useful to be aware of this to be able to interpret what is currently happening and what could be done to prevent it.

Even if we didn't know about those games, and operated in a vaccuum, it would still be easy to know why and how Aoe caps are an issue by using simple maths.

Simply put, a group gets a passive damage mitigation as individual characters gain invulnerability at random. If you take a group of 40, 85% of them are invulnerable at any single point in time. And as group size increase, it gets worst. A group of 60 has 90% passive damage mitigation.

This here is the sad example of a dominant strategy, one that just makes every other game style non viable.

Fortunately, there are ways of balancing aoe that do not use caps at all.
PS: Thanks @Trayyacakes to plug the thread in my signature.

Honestly not much interest in playing gw2 or daoc, this is supposed to be a TES alike game, that is why we play first of all.. it has a huge legacy to gaming history in general as well, so at this point... so screw those under rated MMOs and let us focus on something that would be more elderscrolls alike instead.

It is like what work in that game may not work in this game... and honestly no interest in another clone... besides from developer side there would be no pride in that either that they failed to come up with something and then just have to copy + paste what someone else did.

Xsorus

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Take away AOE caps and you force these groups to spread out. The larger force will still win most of the time. Most of us, I won't say all because there is always a few, aren't asking for the removal of AOE caps, so we can defeat 50+ with 8 people. We want more diverse gameplay. Make the zerg spread out. Make people actually fear choke points. Give small stealth groups a chance to chip away at the zerg.

Ok so how would make sure that 7 people that clever enough just the right composition... sneak in... and murder a group of 80 people who are rallying up for a big battle... eg. with using spies.. or being there at the right time.

You know it would be possible to do such, though probably 'rare' (certainly would not mind to wipe 80 people or the most of them myself could be fun lol)

First of all, if 7 people jump 80 people and kill them, They should be able to if those 80 people were stupid enough to clump in one spot.

Why that is such a travesty to some of you in terms of gameplay I will never guess, cept maybe you've been apart of the 80 that have no situational awareness.

Pretty much the entire timeline of DAOC's life worked that way, If you were stupid, and didn't spread, you died to AOE....

Bloody christ i'm surprised some of you aren't demanding Bosses in PVE not AOE you since ya seem to fear it from players so much.

As for people rallying up, usually they are not standing that far apart... think of it like a sheep herd.... if you stand away from the group the wolf will snatch you.

I don't fear aoe I would not mind if it did hit all, but I also know problems it would cause since it is a skill based system... later on people would cry nerf this or that ability... or why can't I hit anything once your miss chance is increased by 30%... or why can't I damage anything when some people constantly keep on putting up group damage shields...

Simple solution to the current system... restrict groups to max 8 or 12 people with current system, please leave DAOC/gw2 out of it.... don't care what they did in that game, want unique ways in TESO rather or different.... am fine with bosses/mobs doing AOE in PvE by the way... but the max limits to groups in that is 4 or12 people.

It wouldn't be an issue to have balancing complaints after the removal of AoE caps because it would mean that there is at least progression towards a better game. Caps are just preventing evolutions because not all abilities are used properly because of it.

Yes, ESO needs a solution that is custom made, but looking elsewhere for inspiration is important.
gw2 and daoc are interesting examples of ways mechanics impacted player behaviours in the past. It is useful to be aware of this to be able to interpret what is currently happening and what could be done to prevent it.

Even if we didn't know about those games, and operated in a vaccuum, it would still be easy to know why and how Aoe caps are an issue by using simple maths.

Simply put, a group gets a passive damage mitigation as individual characters gain invulnerability at random. If you take a group of 40, 85% of them are invulnerable at any single point in time. And as group size increase, it gets worst. A group of 60 has 90% passive damage mitigation.

This here is the sad example of a dominant strategy, one that just makes every other game style non viable.

Fortunately, there are ways of balancing aoe that do not use caps at all.
PS: Thanks @Trayyacakes to plug the thread in my signature.

Honestly not much interest in playing gw2 or daoc, this is supposed to be a TES alike game, that is why we play first of all.. it has a huge legacy to gaming history in general as well, so at this point... so screw those under rated MMOs and let us focus on something that would be more elderscrolls alike instead.

It is like what work in that game may not work in this game... and honestly no interest in another clone... besides from developer side there would be no pride in that either that they failed to come up with something and then just have to copy + paste what someone else did.

You do realize this game is copying vast amounts from DAOC right?

Also, did you really just try and claim we must have AOE caps because you must stand right on top of someone because you're worried about getting ganked if you're not butt hugging them while rallying in front of a keep?

Really? You do know we can't design a whole game around someone who lacks basic situational awareness right?

hamon

Samadhi wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

All this video show is that they need to fix the lag... I find it interesting that no one actually threw aoes into the blob... it is not like it was moving at all and there is a bunch of ranged aoes that could be used for it.

.

what effective ranged aoes do we have? templar shards is weak, volley is weak. nova is so high in ultimate cost nobody uses it. plus lag makes it difficult to actually fire.

fair enough if we had proper ranged aoes like fireballs and chain lighning. but this game lacks it severely

Chain Lighting is supposedly/potentially one of the skills that can be made in Spell Crafting when it is added.
Unfortunately, it would keep chaining through different targets in the zerg.

well it would be a step in the right direction. cos with proper spalsh effects pinging around meaning that every time you hit a zerg ball with arrows or anything else ranged it would be splashing or chaining or infecting everyone hugging in it. it would make zerg balling suicide.

the fact ranged aoes in this game are so weak just makes blobbing that much more effective even without aoe caps making them invincible.

Lord_Draevan

I see this in comments on each discussion about AoE caps, so let's get one thing straight: no single faction, EP/AD/DC is alone is using the Blob tactic: all 3 do it, all 3 have groups on one campaign or the other dedicated to this blob tactic. Hell, on NA Wabbajack all 3 factions use them sometimes all 3 at the same battlefield. It's not a one-faction issue, it's game-wide. Might be on your campaign it's only one faction, but on another I guarantee your faction is doing it.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Take away AOE caps and you force these groups to spread out. The larger force will still win most of the time. Most of us, I won't say all because there is always a few, aren't asking for the removal of AOE caps, so we can defeat 50+ with 8 people. We want more diverse gameplay. Make the zerg spread out. Make people actually fear choke points. Give small stealth groups a chance to chip away at the zerg.

Ok so how would make sure that 7 people that clever enough just the right composition... sneak in... and murder a group of 80 people who are rallying up for a big battle... eg. with using spies.. or being there at the right time.

You know it would be possible to do such, though probably 'rare' (certainly would not mind to wipe 80 people or the most of them myself could be fun lol)

First of all, if 7 people jump 80 people and kill them, They should be able to if those 80 people were stupid enough to clump in one spot.

Why that is such a travesty to some of you in terms of gameplay I will never guess, cept maybe you've been apart of the 80 that have no situational awareness.

Pretty much the entire timeline of DAOC's life worked that way, If you were stupid, and didn't spread, you died to AOE....

Bloody christ i'm surprised some of you aren't demanding Bosses in PVE not AOE you since ya seem to fear it from players so much.

As for people rallying up, usually they are not standing that far apart... think of it like a sheep herd.... if you stand away from the group the wolf will snatch you.

I don't fear aoe I would not mind if it did hit all, but I also know problems it would cause since it is a skill based system... later on people would cry nerf this or that ability... or why can't I hit anything once your miss chance is increased by 30%... or why can't I damage anything when some people constantly keep on putting up group damage shields...

Simple solution to the current system... restrict groups to max 8 or 12 people with current system, please leave DAOC/gw2 out of it.... don't care what they did in that game, want unique ways in TESO rather or different.... am fine with bosses/mobs doing AOE in PvE by the way... but the max limits to groups in that is 4 or12 people.

It wouldn't be an issue to have balancing complaints after the removal of AoE caps because it would mean that there is at least progression towards a better game. Caps are just preventing evolutions because not all abilities are used properly because of it.

Yes, ESO needs a solution that is custom made, but looking elsewhere for inspiration is important.
gw2 and daoc are interesting examples of ways mechanics impacted player behaviours in the past. It is useful to be aware of this to be able to interpret what is currently happening and what could be done to prevent it.

Even if we didn't know about those games, and operated in a vaccuum, it would still be easy to know why and how Aoe caps are an issue by using simple maths.

Simply put, a group gets a passive damage mitigation as individual characters gain invulnerability at random. If you take a group of 40, 85% of them are invulnerable at any single point in time. And as group size increase, it gets worst. A group of 60 has 90% passive damage mitigation.

This here is the sad example of a dominant strategy, one that just makes every other game style non viable.

Fortunately, there are ways of balancing aoe that do not use caps at all.
PS: Thanks @Trayyacakes to plug the thread in my signature.

Honestly not much interest in playing gw2 or daoc, this is supposed to be a TES alike game, that is why we play first of all.. it has a huge legacy to gaming history in general as well, so at this point... so screw those under rated MMOs and let us focus on something that would be more elderscrolls alike instead.

It is like what work in that game may not work in this game... and honestly no interest in another clone... besides from developer side there would be no pride in that either that they failed to come up with something and then just have to copy + paste what someone else did.

You missed my point entirely.
it isn't copying, it is learning from history.
Implementing aoe caps is like trying to invade Russia in winter.

Even if you were to choose to ignore history, and just look at ESo, you'd notice that aoe caps are destructive: Zerg balling started when the aoe cap was revealed

Common sense and simple maths show that it is a stupid mechanic to have on all aoes. Did you read and understand what I said about the random invulnerability and the group wide passive damage mitigation?

SBR_QuorTek

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Take away AOE caps and you force these groups to spread out. The larger force will still win most of the time. Most of us, I won't say all because there is always a few, aren't asking for the removal of AOE caps, so we can defeat 50+ with 8 people. We want more diverse gameplay. Make the zerg spread out. Make people actually fear choke points. Give small stealth groups a chance to chip away at the zerg.

Ok so how would make sure that 7 people that clever enough just the right composition... sneak in... and murder a group of 80 people who are rallying up for a big battle... eg. with using spies.. or being there at the right time.

You know it would be possible to do such, though probably 'rare' (certainly would not mind to wipe 80 people or the most of them myself could be fun lol)

First of all, if 7 people jump 80 people and kill them, They should be able to if those 80 people were stupid enough to clump in one spot.

Why that is such a travesty to some of you in terms of gameplay I will never guess, cept maybe you've been apart of the 80 that have no situational awareness.

Pretty much the entire timeline of DAOC's life worked that way, If you were stupid, and didn't spread, you died to AOE....

Bloody christ i'm surprised some of you aren't demanding Bosses in PVE not AOE you since ya seem to fear it from players so much.

As for people rallying up, usually they are not standing that far apart... think of it like a sheep herd.... if you stand away from the group the wolf will snatch you.

I don't fear aoe I would not mind if it did hit all, but I also know problems it would cause since it is a skill based system... later on people would cry nerf this or that ability... or why can't I hit anything once your miss chance is increased by 30%... or why can't I damage anything when some people constantly keep on putting up group damage shields...

Simple solution to the current system... restrict groups to max 8 or 12 people with current system, please leave DAOC/gw2 out of it.... don't care what they did in that game, want unique ways in TESO rather or different.... am fine with bosses/mobs doing AOE in PvE by the way... but the max limits to groups in that is 4 or12 people.

It wouldn't be an issue to have balancing complaints after the removal of AoE caps because it would mean that there is at least progression towards a better game. Caps are just preventing evolutions because not all abilities are used properly because of it.

Yes, ESO needs a solution that is custom made, but looking elsewhere for inspiration is important.
gw2 and daoc are interesting examples of ways mechanics impacted player behaviours in the past. It is useful to be aware of this to be able to interpret what is currently happening and what could be done to prevent it.

Even if we didn't know about those games, and operated in a vaccuum, it would still be easy to know why and how Aoe caps are an issue by using simple maths.

Simply put, a group gets a passive damage mitigation as individual characters gain invulnerability at random. If you take a group of 40, 85% of them are invulnerable at any single point in time. And as group size increase, it gets worst. A group of 60 has 90% passive damage mitigation.

This here is the sad example of a dominant strategy, one that just makes every other game style non viable.

Fortunately, there are ways of balancing aoe that do not use caps at all.
PS: Thanks @Trayyacakes to plug the thread in my signature.

Honestly not much interest in playing gw2 or daoc, this is supposed to be a TES alike game, that is why we play first of all.. it has a huge legacy to gaming history in general as well, so at this point... so screw those under rated MMOs and let us focus on something that would be more elderscrolls alike instead.

It is like what work in that game may not work in this game... and honestly no interest in another clone... besides from developer side there would be no pride in that either that they failed to come up with something and then just have to copy + paste what someone else did.

You missed my point entirely.
it isn't copying, it is learning from history.
Implementing aoe caps is like trying to invade Russia in winter.

Even if you were to choose to ignore history, and just look at ESo, you'd notice that aoe caps are destructive: Zerg balling started when the aoe cap was revealed

Common sense and simple maths show that it is a stupid mechanic to have on all aoes. Did you read and understand what I said about the random invulnerability and the group wide passive damage mitigation?

I actually agree with you, but personally I think it would be better coming up with other solutions than messing with the current caps.

I do understand how this game work as well, it is not rocket science, but it wont make me go for removing aoe caps as a bunch of small fixes could turn the tide totally around to begin with.. as well as not making anyone vulnerable to when they apply new patches and some skill breaks into pieces and can be massive abused due to one class skill.

I do understand and agree to that there is not many viable options against current setting untill ZOS apply some fixes... but I also do not want DKs to be main target for the next cry outs because they are so heavy based with aoe skills as they are... hence why the small fixes and keeping current caps and for those skill lines as it is.

Proposed putting classes into different armor classes as well and more, think about it in certain ways and not in what is good for one self, but as in a whole.

Sorc: Light only
NB: Medium only
Templar: Heavy or Light
DK: Heavy or medium
Would mean some would have to give up the staff or light armor and work with other weaponry/armor and yet the classes cannot be avoided either due to some strong other benefits.

Make AOE immunity functions rely under class skills only, eg. rapid maneuver grant group immunity to CC, let it be a speed buff only and if want some sort of immunities invite classes that can provide them.

If want to benefit from armor skill, wear 5 pieces of given type.

Undaunted skills would have no effect in PvP contested area, Boneshield is plain mean sort of, but technically and mainly am PvE Dungeon skills.

But it is not a popular approach and honestly not very much TES alike either in some ways, please don't kill the messenger lol.

Lava_Croft

Trayyacakes wrote: »

This isn't on those players. This is all on ZOS. The player base spoke out against the AOE caps months ago when we became aware of them, but our words fell on def ears.

The whole discussion about AoE caps is firmly gimped by repeating this false statement over and over.

Trayyacakes

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

This isn't on those players. This is all on ZOS. The player base spoke out against the AOE caps months ago when we became aware of them, but our words fell on def ears.

The whole discussion about AoE caps is firmly gimped by repeating this false statement over and over.

What is false about that statement? Did forums here and anywhere ESO is a topic not explode when we became aware of AoE caps? A majority of the player base that use the forums and that participate in AvA spoke against caps. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is a fact.

The ones who don't speak against the cap can pretty much be sorted into 3 groups.

1. They don't AvA/don't care and are indefferent.
2. They are clueless and believe AoE is already OP, and they believe uncapped AoE will make the blob stronger.
3. They are part of these blob zergs themselves.

I do not have a problem with zergs. They are part of AvA, but as it stands right now. In the open field and in choke points smaller groups have 0 chance against a well coordinated blob, and that is ridiculous. Incoming AoE group up.

If you are going to argue with me and say siege is the counter then you haven't seen a group with dedicated purgers. They constantly spam heals, so barrier is constantly up. They purge off the dots left from oil, meat catapults, and fire ballistas, but if you participate in AvA you already know this. If you don't you are blind.

Would you at least agree that there is a problem with AvA and zerg blobs, or do you think everything is hunky dory.

If you don't think there is a problem at all than everyone here knows that you are most likely a blob groupy. I don't want to take away your safety in numbers. I want to take away your safety in a 8m radius. You will still be able to zerg with AoE caps you will just have to be slightly aware of wtf is going on around you.

If you do admit there is a problem with how AvA is working right now then please enlighten me on how ZOS should go about fixing if not by uncapping AoE?

Also on a side note. If blobbing is your thing. You can do it on a game without a monthly subscription. I expect more out of sub games, and if this one doesn't want to offer it there is one coming down the pipeline that will. I believe they should start alpha testing soon.

CPT_CAPSLOCK

I cant see a problem with the aoe cap in the vids. Its just a problem how heals works.
While u can not chose which target u wanna hit with ur aoe dmg, u can with heals. If the heals would heal a random char too, or if the dmg would hit always the target with the lowest health, then they would be dead in a few seconds.

SBR_QuorTek

A shot in the wild though here and not sure if it has been tried yet, target someone... throw aoe that direction rinse and repeat for a while and log and watch the tendency.... just speculating and wonder if it would do any difference... honestly never tried that before in PvP other than in 1v1 situations where AOE is not so important.

Columba

If removal of aoe caps would truly eliminate the impulse spam monkeys, I'd be for it. I'm worried it could make these spam chimps even more powerful.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Take away AOE caps and you force these groups to spread out. The larger force will still win most of the time. Most of us, I won't say all because there is always a few, aren't asking for the removal of AOE caps, so we can defeat 50+ with 8 people. We want more diverse gameplay. Make the zerg spread out. Make people actually fear choke points. Give small stealth groups a chance to chip away at the zerg.

Ok so how would make sure that 7 people that clever enough just the right composition... sneak in... and murder a group of 80 people who are rallying up for a big battle... eg. with using spies.. or being there at the right time.

You know it would be possible to do such, though probably 'rare' (certainly would not mind to wipe 80 people or the most of them myself could be fun lol)

First of all, if 7 people jump 80 people and kill them, They should be able to if those 80 people were stupid enough to clump in one spot.

Why that is such a travesty to some of you in terms of gameplay I will never guess, cept maybe you've been apart of the 80 that have no situational awareness.

Pretty much the entire timeline of DAOC's life worked that way, If you were stupid, and didn't spread, you died to AOE....

Bloody christ i'm surprised some of you aren't demanding Bosses in PVE not AOE you since ya seem to fear it from players so much.

As for people rallying up, usually they are not standing that far apart... think of it like a sheep herd.... if you stand away from the group the wolf will snatch you.

I don't fear aoe I would not mind if it did hit all, but I also know problems it would cause since it is a skill based system... later on people would cry nerf this or that ability... or why can't I hit anything once your miss chance is increased by 30%... or why can't I damage anything when some people constantly keep on putting up group damage shields...

Simple solution to the current system... restrict groups to max 8 or 12 people with current system, please leave DAOC/gw2 out of it.... don't care what they did in that game, want unique ways in TESO rather or different.... am fine with bosses/mobs doing AOE in PvE by the way... but the max limits to groups in that is 4 or12 people.

It wouldn't be an issue to have balancing complaints after the removal of AoE caps because it would mean that there is at least progression towards a better game. Caps are just preventing evolutions because not all abilities are used properly because of it.

Yes, ESO needs a solution that is custom made, but looking elsewhere for inspiration is important.
gw2 and daoc are interesting examples of ways mechanics impacted player behaviours in the past. It is useful to be aware of this to be able to interpret what is currently happening and what could be done to prevent it.

Even if we didn't know about those games, and operated in a vaccuum, it would still be easy to know why and how Aoe caps are an issue by using simple maths.

Simply put, a group gets a passive damage mitigation as individual characters gain invulnerability at random. If you take a group of 40, 85% of them are invulnerable at any single point in time. And as group size increase, it gets worst. A group of 60 has 90% passive damage mitigation.

This here is the sad example of a dominant strategy, one that just makes every other game style non viable.

Fortunately, there are ways of balancing aoe that do not use caps at all.
PS: Thanks @Trayyacakes to plug the thread in my signature.

Honestly not much interest in playing gw2 or daoc, this is supposed to be a TES alike game, that is why we play first of all.. it has a huge legacy to gaming history in general as well, so at this point... so screw those under rated MMOs and let us focus on something that would be more elderscrolls alike instead.

It is like what work in that game may not work in this game... and honestly no interest in another clone... besides from developer side there would be no pride in that either that they failed to come up with something and then just have to copy + paste what someone else did.

You missed my point entirely.
it isn't copying, it is learning from history.
Implementing aoe caps is like trying to invade Russia in winter.

Even if you were to choose to ignore history, and just look at ESo, you'd notice that aoe caps are destructive: Zerg balling started when the aoe cap was revealed

Common sense and simple maths show that it is a stupid mechanic to have on all aoes. Did you read and understand what I said about the random invulnerability and the group wide passive damage mitigation?

I actually agree with you, but personally I think it would be better coming up with other solutions than messing with the current caps.

I do understand how this game work as well, it is not rocket science, but it wont make me go for removing aoe caps as a bunch of small fixes could turn the tide totally around to begin with.. as well as not making anyone vulnerable to when they apply new patches and some skill breaks into pieces and can be massive abused due to one class skill.

Here is the thing,the aoe caps themselves are the issue, not a randomly suggested solution.

Target caps have other negative consequences aside from blobbing:
- loss of control and introduction of "luck" in a competitive environment.
- immersion breaking in a game trying to be immersive.
- lowers the skill ceiling of active target selection.
- prevents individualy balancing abilities to be engaging/added variety.

Any change you would do to counter blobbing, one of the symptoms, would not fix the core issue, the disease.

I understand that people are worried about aoe becoming too powerful, or some of the classes with more aoes becoming op. And it is valid concern.

But the most constructive things to do is to embrace the fact that abilities need to be balanced individually and that no sweeping solution will work.

If you'd read the thread linked in my signature, you'd see there are plenty of ways to keep aoe in check while making it engaging for everyone involved.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

CPT_CAPSLOCK wrote: »

I cant see a problem with the aoe cap in the vids. Its just a problem how heals works.
While u can not chose which target u wanna hit with ur aoe dmg, u can with heals. If the heals would heal a random char too, or if the dmg would hit always the target with the lowest health, then they would be dead in a few seconds.

Smart healing wouldn't be an issue without the target caps.
You say it yourself, there is a disparity in controlability between damaging and healing abilities.
The best solution is not to take away control from the player, but give them more.

Without aoe caps, groups would not gain random invulnerability, they would take more damage and healers would have more of a job on their hands.
Not to mention that if they have more to actually heal, they will have more AP gains, making support roles even more interesting.

rich_nicholsonb16_ESO

Columba wrote: »

If removal of aoe caps would truly eliminate the impulse spam monkeys, I'd be for it. I'm worried it could make these spam chimps even more powerful.

For it to work they need to reduce group size and keep healing within the group. Its the size of the group and how healing works is where the problem is as well as impulse is spamable. Put them all together you get this easy mode system.

Sublime

For those worrying about AOE caps here is a little calculation about the healing without AOE caps. If they remove the cap on attack spells they should also remove them from healing spells.

...

Greez,

Sublime aka Letherblaka

Thechemicals

looks like a zerg vs zerg.

hamon

Thechemicals wrote: »

looks like a zerg vs zerg.

or a zerg versus zerg ball (blob) zerging is fine. as in having a huge force attacking something. its blobbing or stacking thats the issue. I wish folk would understand the diffrence.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Samadhi wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

All this video show is that they need to fix the lag... I find it interesting that no one actually threw aoes into the blob... it is not like it was moving at all and there is a bunch of ranged aoes that could be used for it.

.

what effective ranged aoes do we have? templar shards is weak, volley is weak. nova is so high in ultimate cost nobody uses it. plus lag makes it difficult to actually fire.

fair enough if we had proper ranged aoes like fireballs and chain lighning. but this game lacks it severely

Chain Lighting is supposedly/potentially one of the skills that can be made in Spell Crafting when it is added.
Unfortunately, it would keep chaining through different targets in the zerg.

They could limit the number of chains to 5. They will hopefully no llonger have caps with different aoe balancing by then tho.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

All this video show is that they need to fix the lag... I find it interesting that no one actually threw aoes into the blob... it is not like it was moving at all and there is a bunch of ranged aoes that could be used for it.

.

what effective ranged aoes do we have? templar shards is weak, volley is weak. nova is so high in ultimate cost nobody uses it. plus lag makes it difficult to actually fire.

fair enough if we had proper ranged aoes like fireballs and chain lighning. but this game lacks it severely

Chain Lighting is supposedly/potentially one of the skills that can be made in Spell Crafting when it is added.
Unfortunately, it would keep chaining through different targets in the zerg.

They could limit the number of chains to 5. They will hopefully no llonger have caps with different aoe balancing by then tho.

Or instead of having a target cap, it could have a "jumping chances" based on how many targets it already hit: (100 / (1+ prev_targest))

So 100% - 50% - 33% - 25% - 20% - 16.5% and so on.

The probability of having a chain lightning hitting 5 targets would be of:
100 x 0.5 x 0.33 x 0.25 x 0.20: 0.825%
So 100% - 50 % - 16.5% - 4.125%, 0.825%

Or even add a positive modifier if yo uwant the odds to not go down as fast, like:
(100 /( (1+ prev_targest) / positive_modifier))
If that modifier is 3, you're sure to hit at least 2 targets.
hit - hit - 75% - 60% - 50% - 42,9%
Which means chances of hitting 6 targets are around 10%.

Does this leave someone the chance to win the lottery and hit infinitely? Yes.
Is this probable? Heck no

Poxheart

I was there for this "fight." I'm glad somebody recorded it because it was absurd. The lag was so bad none of may abilities would fire, even light/heavy attacks.

c0rp

6:50 lmao.....great video btw... @zos_BrianWheeler @zos_MattFiror