AEcaps, zergballs and you

Columba

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

no, its really not, and i have been dominating large zergs with smallmans since 2002, so your statement of "only zergs can beat zergs" is quite invalid. you are obviously a zerger and hate the idea of losing to a smallman, but it happens.

Yet you said this...."With AE caps, the biggest zerg always wins..." lol you don't get it, I suppose. your own statements are going way over your own head!

Maybe he doesn`t consider his smallscale group a zerg?

I think people would take this thread (which is very well thought out and spot on) more serious, if you guys would do the flirting part via PM?! Please?

so a small group can wipe a large group but somehow a smaller zerg can't beat a larger zerg? logic check please. no, he wants the ability to troll larger groups with impunity. he is myopically focused on aoe caps as the only way to make pvp better. here's a thought. if you loved it in daoc so much, go back to daoc! it's still operating.

Trayyacakes

All of you talking about stricter aoe caps have no idea what you are asking for.
There is no collision detection in this game, and there is an ability called immovable. That being said, how do you expect to kill the blob that you can't single target down because targeting mechanics in this game don't allow for it.

adam_ascottb16_ESO2 wrote: »

It is WAR, more WAR then PvP, the intended design is that, 24-60 players group up into a warband and take keeps and win skirmishes, gaining momentum, then seige a keep, overwhelm it and take it. That is the point. The side with higher numbers should always win. Reinforce and ambush them as they are setting up their seige equipment, and counterattack/retake it. One person spamming devouring swarm and AoEs killing everyone defending an entire keep against people solo is ***. I am glad its gone and you should be to.

I personally would like AoE cap to be lowered even more, single target/up to 4.
Multi CC/Snare and AoE spell spamming for partial kill credit sucks, encourage players to fight one on one. In large group battles. Make seige weapons do more damage then player abilities to groups of players.IMO they should be the major AoE to worry about in PvP. Make catapult projectiles slower (easier to avoid) but make it so that if you get off a hit its a one shot. To multiple players. Lower damage on all player AoE abilities based on effected targets up to the cap(reduce the effectiveness overall) this with buff to seige weapon damage IMO is the best route.

It is war yes. Are you saying there aren't instances in history where larger forces where destroyed by smaller ones? I'm pretty sure things like that happened.

Also Devouring swarm was wiping zergs because it stacked... that is all. It is possible for programmers to limit the ultimate gained on an ability. It is also possible for them to limit the amount of heals an ability can do, so swarm doesn't have to heal for every person it hits.

Ifthir_ESO

Lowbei wrote: »

i have been dominating large zergs with smallmans since 2002

Yeah and I was world #1 monk on diablo 3 which means jack crap other than for me to humblebrag.

Please try and comment on topic. Show evidence like you did with your other videos, they were great at demonstrating your point.

Ifthir_ESO

Columba wrote: »

lowbei just doesn't get it. way over his head. contemplate emp groups with no aoe cap, lol. removal of aoe caps will do more harm than good.

I think if you remove AOE cap but add an ultimate generation AOE cap it could work.

Hard to say, I only have my personal experience as data.

philip.ploegerb16_ESO

This thread getting so much hate is laughable.

I need to repeat this once again:

50 players standing on one spot.
Other side having 6 players.
50 players can hit every single of the enemies players, while most of themselves are invulnerable due to mechanics.

Are those people who hate so much in this thread still afraid with their 50 people, that those 6 people could gain in power?

Seriously:

AoE caps need to either go, or be adjusted to a number of players that's so large, that Zergballers lose their invulnerability .

And yes, Ultimate-generation would need to be nerfed too probably. Personally, I think it's over the top now already with the Warrior's guild passive and the Level 8-10 PvP-passive.

Columba

we disagree with your solution. that's not hate.

Columba

philip.ploegerb16_ESO wrote: »

This thread getting so much hate is laughable.

I need to repeat this once again:

50 players standing on one spot.
Other side having 6 players.
50 players can hit every single of the enemies players, while most of themselves are invulnerable due to mechanics.

Are those people who hate so much in this thread still afraid with their 50 people, that those 6 people could gain in power?

Seriously:

AoE caps need to either go, or be adjusted to a number of players that's so large, that Zergballers lose their invulnerability .

And yes, Ultimate-generation would need to be nerfed too probably. Personally, I think it's over the top now already with the Warrior's guild passive and the Level 8-10 PvP-passive.

so 2 emp groups, already hard to kill, can pin everyone down in a 50 man zerg and wipe them more easily than they already do today? think through the consequences of your recommendations. removal of aoe caps will create other problems.

philip.ploegerb16_ESO

Columba wrote: »

so 2 emp groups, already hard to kill, can pin everyone down in a 50 man zerg and wipe them more easily than they already do today? think through the consequences of your recommendations. removal of aoe caps will create other problems.

Again, laughable.

We kill emperor groups many times we meet them, they're not even remotely in the category, that AoE caps are. Emperors are single persons, that are a little bit harder than others, AoE caps have mutated PvP however in Zergball and "Steering-Wheel-PvP" , which is no PvP to me.

Even other problems would be better than AoE-caps currently are, funnily enough though, DAoC didn't experience those problems, but people simply learned to spread out, and by that, pvp again got more interesting.

Columba

Allow me to retort.... I find impulse zergs far easier to defeat than I do emp groups. so there.

Galrukh

Then nerf emperor groups. The fact that the game has more than 1 thing that doesnt work as it should, shouldnt stop ZOS from fixing any of them.
It simply should never be a defense against AOE attacks to group up, especially since the game doesnt have collision detection, it simply makes no sense.

Teargrants

Bad logic is bad. The reason emperor groups are hard to kill is

1. Because of aoe caps
2. Because they are a well coordinated/setup group, how do you think they got emp + bunch of former emps in the first place? (Yes, even the emp farmers, farming makes them coordinated)
3. Because they have a DK emp that can keep dropping standards left and right for them.

Removing aoe caps would make the emp groups much more killable.

krim

Kirsika wrote: »

Bad logic is bad. The reason emperor groups are hard to kill is

1. Because of aoe caps
2. Because they are a well coordinated/setup group, how do you think they got emp + bunch of former emps in the first place? (Yes, even the emp farmers, farming makes them coordinated)
3. Because they have a DK emp that can keep dropping standards left and right for them.

Removing aoe caps would make the emp groups much more killable.

great logic....... More like QQ logic.

1. Former emp buff doesnt make you god. I do just fine without it.
2. Just because they coordinated to farm emp doesnt make them any good at the game.
3. what do you think removing AE caps would do to the groups that are full of good people?

br-shield current emp but no where near as strong as perm or luvboard when they have emp. I cant imagine them with emp and no AE cap it would be hilarious.

timidobserver

I played a lot of WvW in GW2. It is kind of hilarious how AvA is having almost exactly the same evolution as WvW. The exact same AoE caps debate took place once groups figured out how to stack.

Paladin_echo1

Columba wrote: »

There is zero "proof" as to what killed Gw2 or if indeed it was ever killed. It's unknowable and subjective.

There is also zero proof that AOE cap removal will improve the game. It's a feature you want, but don't confuse it as a fact.

I think steps should be taken to discourage zerging and make smaller skirmishes more feasible, but I can get smaller skirmishes today without anything as drastic as an aoe cap removal. I remember 30 people standing motionless in daoc due to one aoe stun, and each getting decimated one by one. No thanks. Playing the game of who can fire the aoe first is no less mindless than spamming impulse.

GW2 is still hitting hard. However their servers are run much better than these. I don't like the impulse spamming, but I would rather have at least 10 people able to be hit by an aoe rather than just 6. The zergballing is getting out of hand. You CANNOT target 6 people specifically. And if that is not enough the siege seems to have a cap on it too. I hope they do take better steps to get rid of the zergball. Most Siege equipment does not even do enough damage to be taken seriously.

Trayyacakes

Paladin_echo1 wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

There is zero "proof" as to what killed Gw2 or if indeed it was ever killed. It's unknowable and subjective.

There is also zero proof that AOE cap removal will improve the game. It's a feature you want, but don't confuse it as a fact.

I think steps should be taken to discourage zerging and make smaller skirmishes more feasible, but I can get smaller skirmishes today without anything as drastic as an aoe cap removal. I remember 30 people standing motionless in daoc due to one aoe stun, and each getting decimated one by one. No thanks. Playing the game of who can fire the aoe first is no less mindless than spamming impulse.

GW2 is still hitting hard. However their servers are run much better than these. I don't like the impulse spamming, but I would rather have at least 10 people able to be hit by an aoe rather than just 6. The zergballing is getting out of hand. You CANNOT target 6 people specifically. And if that is not enough the siege seems to have a cap on it too. I hope they do take better steps to get rid of the zergball. Most Siege equipment does not even do enough damage to be taken seriously.

The problem with siege is a combination of 2 abilities. Barrier and Purge. The caps on both of those abilities is way higher than 6. There are 2 damage abilities that don't abide by the cap. one is the synergy for the last skill in undaunted, and the other is Caltrops. Purge and barrier are way more useful than both of those abilities.

Teargrants

krim wrote: »

great logic....... More like QQ logic.

1. Former emp buff doesnt make you god. I do just fine without it.
2. Just because they coordinated to farm emp doesnt make them any good at the game.
3. what do you think removing AE caps would do to the groups that are full of good people?

br-shield current emp but no where near as strong as perm or luvboard when they have emp. I cant imagine them with emp and no AE cap it would be hilarious.

Where am I QQing?

1 - I never said former emp buff makes you godlike, way to put words in my mouth. The emp himself is powerful, and a DK emp acts as the spearhead for their blob - invasion + standards left and right.
2 - I was responding to this,

Columba wrote: »

so 2 emp groups, already hard to kill, can pin everyone down in a 50 man zerg and wipe them more easily than they already do today? think through the consequences of your recommendations. removal of aoe caps will create other problems.

Emp groups, even the farmer ones, have more coordination than a random pulsar zerg. ie, that is the reason they "can pin everyone down in a 50 man zerg". Nothing to do w/ aoe caps.

3 - Are you seriously implying that removing aoe caps will suddenly make groups of good players lose to bunches of bad players? For real? I'm not in the twilight zone or something? Here is exactly what groups of good players would do: spread the hell out and not stand in the red circle.

Without aoe cap, blobs of good players can still cut through the random masses, but they will have to adapt additional tactics to what they do now (ie. stealth approaches rather than stacking up and spamming heals in full view). And when they encounter another coordinated group, they'll have to spread out to mitigate aoe dmg.

Meanwhile opposing groups can split up into stealth bomb groups to hit blobs much more effectively than can be done currently. This meta would make blob formations entail risk by creating stronger counterplay options than we have now.

And on ult generation, of course removing the cap on that would be insane. Removing aoe cap doesn't have to change ult generation cap at all.

Trayyacakes

Kirsika wrote: »

krim wrote: »

great logic....... More like QQ logic.

1. Former emp buff doesnt make you god. I do just fine without it.
2. Just because they coordinated to farm emp doesnt make them any good at the game.
3. what do you think removing AE caps would do to the groups that are full of good people?

br-shield current emp but no where near as strong as perm or luvboard when they have emp. I cant imagine them with emp and no AE cap it would be hilarious.

Where am I QQing?

1 - I never said former emp buff makes you godlike, way to put words in my mouth. The emp himself is powerful, and a DK emp acts as the spearhead for their blob - invasion + standards left and right.
2 - I was responding to this,

Columba wrote: »

so 2 emp groups, already hard to kill, can pin everyone down in a 50 man zerg and wipe them more easily than they already do today? think through the consequences of your recommendations. removal of aoe caps will create other problems.

Emp groups, even the farmer ones, have more coordination than a random pulsar zerg. ie, that is the reason they "can pin everyone down in a 50 man zerg". Nothing to do w/ aoe caps.

3 - Are you seriously implying that removing aoe caps will suddenly make groups of good players lose to bunches of bad players? For real? I'm not in the twilight zone or something? Here is exactly what groups of good players would do: spread the hell out and not stand in the red circle.

Without aoe cap, blobs of good players can still cut through the random masses, but they will have to adapt additional tactics to what they do now (ie. stealth approaches rather than stacking up and spamming heals in full view). And when they encounter another coordinated group, they'll have to spread out to mitigate aoe dmg.

Meanwhile opposing groups can split up into stealth bomb groups to hit blobs much more effectively than can be done currently. This meta would make blob formations entail risk by creating stronger counterplay options than we have now.

And on ult generation, of course removing the cap on that would be insane. Removing aoe cap doesn't have to change ult generation cap at all.

well spoken.

Perphection

Between the AOE cap, and the current state of Forward Camps this games PvP has really gone down hill.

Xsorus

Paladin_echo1 wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

There is zero "proof" as to what killed Gw2 or if indeed it was ever killed. It's unknowable and subjective.

There is also zero proof that AOE cap removal will improve the game. It's a feature you want, but don't confuse it as a fact.

I think steps should be taken to discourage zerging and make smaller skirmishes more feasible, but I can get smaller skirmishes today without anything as drastic as an aoe cap removal. I remember 30 people standing motionless in daoc due to one aoe stun, and each getting decimated one by one. No thanks. Playing the game of who can fire the aoe first is no less mindless than spamming impulse.

GW2 is still hitting hard. However their servers are run much better than these. I don't like the impulse spamming, but I would rather have at least 10 people able to be hit by an aoe rather than just 6. The zergballing is getting out of hand. You CANNOT target 6 people specifically. And if that is not enough the siege seems to have a cap on it too. I hope they do take better steps to get rid of the zergball. Most Siege equipment does not even do enough damage to be taken seriously.

GW2 actually has something similar happen to it during the big fights in terms of lag, Hence why during the massive battles in GW2 you only see people using the 1 Key, because everything else doesn't fire.

You can also counter the Zerg Balls in GW2 a bit better, hence why they're moving zerg balls (and you can see moving ones in another video I posted in this game). You can't stop on a zerg ball in GW2 any more cause people will throw down multiple Superior Arrow Carts and ruin that day quickly.

Xsorus

Perphection wrote: »

Between the AOE cap, and the current state of Forward Camps this games PvP has really gone down hill.

Forward caps are this games Downed System, thank god its not as bad as the downed system in GW2 for small man fights...

Dekkameron

the shouldn't remove AOE caps, but they should increase the amount of targets hit by a few i think. from 6 to 9. then everything is golden.

Dekkameron

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

pitdemon_ESO wrote: »

The day I stop PvPing is the day I cancel my sub, but I've given up objective-based gameplay and grouping in general until this is fixed.

When I want PvP now, going back to War of the Roses.
I will keep my sub in TESO for the time been, playing with friends and help them with quests etc. But until they fix the Vampires and some of their synergies
(eg Bat Swarm -> Standard of might from the same DK Vamp in less than 10 seconds) I will stay away.

As TESO is right now, you cannot fight with weapons at all. Is pointless and useless to go for non magicka build. And no matter how good I am with my magicka build Templar (and indeed I am), is boring and not fun.

Should be called "The Elder Spellcasters Online".

Complete claptrap, i couldn't disagree more!

I play a nightblade bow user as my primary pvp character and i find that i can easily hold my own against anyone. I mostly play an ambush style game and i kill peeps within a couple of seconds before they even have time to react in 90% of encounters.

Lowbei

the dinosaurs should have zergballed

HazardousNovex

My thoughts earlier in the game were that the caps should have been removed, but I have changed my mind about that, today my group was killing a massive group on the opposing side, there was quite possibly 50+ players in the enemy group. I charged in and hit a synergy, which seemed to have been an ability without an AoE cap and my ultimate instantly went to 388%. We wiped their zerg so easily just because of this boost at the start of the battle.

This subject is a fragile one, with different views and opinions on either side, I just think it is better off with the cap, The removal of the cap would essentially allow people to wipe dozens of players solo, a repeat of the 'bat swarm epidemic'.

Galrukh

HazardousNovex wrote: »

My thoughts earlier in the game were that the caps should have been removed, but I have changed my mind about that, today my group was killing a massive group on the opposing side, there was quite possibly 50+ players in the enemy group. I charged in and hit a synergy, which seemed to have been an ability without an AoE cap and my ultimate instantly went to 388%. We wiped their zerg so easily just because of this boost at the start of the battle.

This subject is a fragile one, with different views and opinions on either side, I just think it is better off with the cap, The removal of the cap would essentially allow people to wipe dozens of players solo, a repeat of the 'bat swarm epidemic'.

While that is a concern, maybe a fix along with the removal of aoe caps, would be to put a cooldown on ultimate abilities. I know ZOS really, really dislike cooldowns (internal or not) but it would help a lot of things.

Teargrants

Your issue is with ult generation then, that's not necessarily tied to the aoe cap. No one here is arguing for an increase in ult gen. That synergy giving so much ult gen sounds like an oversight of the devs considering that everything else seems to have a cap for ult gen.

Lowbei

synergies are meant to have caps. that would fix your issue i think

HazardousNovex

Lowbei wrote: »

synergies are meant to have caps. that would fix your issue i think

It wouldn't fix my issue at all, I gained that much ultimate because my ability hit so many people, what I am trying to point out is that one cast of impulse without a cap could fill your ultimate completely, allowing people to be extremely powerful, increasing in power, the more people there are. This is exactly what people complained about when the OP vampire builds were used.

I agree that a smaller, coordinated group should be able to take out a larger, less disciplined group, but I just don't believe this is the way to do it, a fight should be decided on what tactics you use.


http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/ultimate-gain-from-damage-demystified/

This explains ultimate gain in the game, I have tested and found that I can get about 5 ultimate per person I hit, decided by factors such as critical and damage. My ultimate costs 128, which means I could run into a group of 25, use impulse once and drop my ultimate, rinse and repeat until they're dead.

This is not the kind of gameplay I find fun.

Trayyacakes

HazardousNovex wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

synergies are meant to have caps. that would fix your issue i think

It wouldn't fix my issue at all, I gained that much ultimate because my ability hit so many people, what I am trying to point out is that one cast of impulse without a cap could fill your ultimate completely, allowing people to be extremely powerful, increasing in power, the more people there are. This is exactly what people complained about when the OP vampire builds were used.

I agree that a smaller, coordinated group should be able to take out a larger, less disciplined group, but I just don't believe this is the way to do it, a fight should be decided on what tactics you use.


http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/ultimate-gain-from-damage-demystified/

This explains ultimate gain in the game, I have tested and found that I can get about 5 ultimate per person I hit, decided by factors such as critical and damage. My ultimate costs 128, which means I could run into a group of 25, use impulse once and drop my ultimate, rinse and repeat until they're dead.

This is not the kind of gameplay I find fun.

Please read the whole thread. No one here thinks that ulti gain from abilities shouldn't be capped.

Teargrants

@HazardousNovex‌
Dude

Kirsika wrote: »

And on ult generation, of course removing the cap on that would be insane. Removing aoe cap doesn't have to change ult generation cap at all.