AEcaps, zergballs and you

Xsorus

dietlime wrote: »

krim wrote: »

On a side note i think there are AE caps because if there wasnt ulti gen would be ridiculous, and then it would really be an AE ulti spam fest.

ZOS clearly has the talent to cap only ulti gain while still allowing AOE to damage everything entering it.

There is already a cap on ulti game person skill use in this game.

SBR_QuorTek

Simple other solution got to target player to use aoe... further more you got to be in range to apply it.

Xsorus

AOE Caps also cause lag, and you might be wondering how.

Go watch any large clump fight at a keep, and watch the server buckle..Do you know why this is? Because people aren't dying in those clumps very fast, and they're all sitting in one area spamming Impulse over and over again along with Heals.

If AOE caps weren't in place, Most of those people would die very quickly, stopping them from spamming impulse and heals over and over again lessening server load.

krim

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

AOE Caps also cause lag, and you might be wondering how.

Go watch any large clump fight at a keep, and watch the server buckle..Do you know why this is? Because people aren't dying in those clumps very fast, and they're all sitting in one area spamming Impulse over and over again along with Heals.

If AOE caps weren't in place, Most of those people would die very quickly, stopping them from spamming impulse and heals over and over again lessening server load.

A+

Mojomonkeyman

krim wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8Is9SVgy_M&list=UUXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw

This is not good for the game.

I see 24 people running around smashing a handful of enemies all scattered around and then being gobbled up. This is what is supposed to happen. Something thats in the realm of possibility is you recruit some players around there. The only thing stopping everyone is the willingness to group up and work together.

Because what you see there is the most easy way to play the game, it is not even pvp. Everyone in this group is mainly focused on running in close proximity to the leader while spamming the button he`s assigned to, purge, heal or damage. A single button. Maximum two. More is not necessary.

I refuse to call that pvp. Nobody who`s into PvP wants to play like that.

So, as soon as the the majority adapts, everyone, even the good players who are used to press multiple buttons a second, will have no other choice but doing the same. It ends in groups like shown in the video running circles around each other, every player in each group smashing his one button. The sad thing is, there is absolutely no need to press more buttons in such a group. No dodging, no blocking, no interrupting, no focus targeting - all the good stuff that makes pvp what it is becomes obsolete.

PvP players will get bored and leave, simple as that. I`m no supernatural being able to look in the future, it`s just that there`s multiple games out there, where it went exactly into the same direction.

Best regards

Columba

agree that the impulse spam is pathetic. I question whether full removal of aoe caps is the best idea.

Trayyacakes

Columba wrote: »

agree that the impulse spam is pathetic. I question whether full removal of aoe caps is the best idea.

Then what would you recommend?

I am for the removal of the aoe cap, but I am also for a diminishing returns system on aoe's.

I would like to see aoe's do more damage at the center, and the damage gets lower the farther away from that you are. I also believe some aoe abilities need the cap: talons,volcanic rune, and the life steal AOEs as well. No ultimate ability should have a cap.(Devouring swarms life drain should have a cap for the heal portion not the damage) I would also rather see Impulse, ring of elements, and pulsar have a cast time since they hit harder than all the stamina AOEs.

Something also needs to be done with Immovable, but that isn't what this thread is about.

Columba

I would increase the cap, slowly, and measure results. No AOE caps would allow a crap load of trolling play by one player.

synnerman

It will be very interesting to see how pulsar grps will spoil ZOS's new enclosed areas of the imperial sewers and city.
It needs fixing and it needs addressing quickly I noticed quite a few new players around yesterday as I started a new alt and Im sure they will be eager to enter cyrodiil. I'm not sure they will be impressed when they die in seconds to this spam. Sort it out pls and keep this momentum built up going forward to improve the game .

krim

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

krim wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8Is9SVgy_M&list=UUXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw

This is not good for the game.

I see 24 people running around smashing a handful of enemies all scattered around and then being gobbled up. This is what is supposed to happen. Something thats in the realm of possibility is you recruit some players around there. The only thing stopping everyone is the willingness to group up and work together.

Because what you see there is the most easy way to play the game, it is not even pvp. Everyone in this group is mainly focused on running in close proximity to the leader while spamming the button he`s assigned to, purge, heal or damage. A single button. Maximum two. More is not necessary.

I refuse to call that pvp. Nobody who`s into PvP wants to play like that.

So, as soon as the the majority adapts, everyone, even the good players who are used to press multiple buttons a second, will have no other choice but doing the same. It ends in groups like shown in the video running circles around each other, every player in each group smashing his one button. The sad thing is, there is absolutely no need to press more buttons in such a group. No dodging, no blocking, no interrupting, no focus targeting - all the good stuff that makes pvp what it is becomes obsolete.

PvP players will get bored and leave, simple as that. I`m no supernatural being able to look in the future, it`s just that there`s multiple games out there, where it went exactly into the same direction.

Best regards

Keep telling yourself this. Its obvious some people find it fun. We can argue about the whole skill thing but the truth is its the knowledge thats lacking. Its the amount of effort or the willingness of people to put their skills together. Remember this game has zero cooldowns and only five skill slots, you are always going to be spamming something.

You guys secretly want to be heroes. Your the type of pvper who wants it to be easy. You wish vampire still gave a 60% ulti reduction and can stack batswarm. Something that was actually wrong with the game and had to be fixed. Unlike this post about AE caps which is so sorry because small groups can already take on larger groups its not impossible.

All it takes to counter something like in the video posted is a little coordination. Once people realize this is how cyrodiil works im sure people will have a better time. But this is the age we live in full of toxic trolls and people who are to good to party up with a random PUG.

ThyIronFist

krim wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

krim wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8Is9SVgy_M&list=UUXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw

This is not good for the game.

I see 24 people running around smashing a handful of enemies all scattered around and then being gobbled up. This is what is supposed to happen. Something thats in the realm of possibility is you recruit some players around there. The only thing stopping everyone is the willingness to group up and work together.

Because what you see there is the most easy way to play the game, it is not even pvp. Everyone in this group is mainly focused on running in close proximity to the leader while spamming the button he`s assigned to, purge, heal or damage. A single button. Maximum two. More is not necessary.

I refuse to call that pvp. Nobody who`s into PvP wants to play like that.

So, as soon as the the majority adapts, everyone, even the good players who are used to press multiple buttons a second, will have no other choice but doing the same. It ends in groups like shown in the video running circles around each other, every player in each group smashing his one button. The sad thing is, there is absolutely no need to press more buttons in such a group. No dodging, no blocking, no interrupting, no focus targeting - all the good stuff that makes pvp what it is becomes obsolete.

PvP players will get bored and leave, simple as that. I`m no supernatural being able to look in the future, it`s just that there`s multiple games out there, where it went exactly into the same direction.

Best regards

Keep telling yourself this. Its obvious some people find it fun. We can argue about the whole skill thing but the truth is its the knowledge thats lacking. Its the amount of effort or the willingness of people to put their skills together. Remember this game has zero cooldowns and only five skill slots, you are always going to be spamming something.

You guys secretly want to be heroes. Your the type of pvper who wants it to be easy. You wish vampire still gave a 60% ulti reduction and can stack batswarm. Something that was actually wrong with the game and had to be fixed. Unlike this post about AE caps which is so sorry because small groups can already take on larger groups its not impossible.

All it takes to counter something like in the video posted is a little coordination. Once people realize this is how cyrodiil works im sure people will have a better time. But this is the age we live in full of toxic trolls and people who are to good to party up with a random PUG.

Lmao, what? Come on man, nobody takes you even serious here in this thread anymore.

philip.ploegerb16_ESO

I've not read the full thread yet, but only the first post.

Because that post is really good though, and mentions basically all valid points, there is nothing for me to add, but a(nother) :

AoE Caps need to either go.

Large numbers already are favoured by themselves, it's the small numbers that need an opportunity to stay competetive.

Also: In every single game I've played, zerging got punished, in ESO it gets rewarded, this needs to change. Zergball-PvP is no fun, and things like "invulnerable players" should not exist in PvP.

Also: The mechanic of "Smart-Heals" leads the system ad absurdum. 6 players bomb 50 players, randomly, 36 players get damaged. On the next bomb, again, randomly 36 players get chosen for damage, but the Smart-Heals heal always exactly those, who have the lowest HP, while bombs can randomly choose to damage players with high-HP.
In the meanwhile: All 50 players from the other zerg are constantly hitting the same 6 targets, so while the Zerglings are already 8+ times the people, they also don't suffer from AoE-caps, this is unfair and needs to change, so:

1. Remove the AoE-cap completely (aka. "DAoC-style" ) .
2. Change the group-size to 12 players.

Should you not choose the above, programming something like "Smart-Damage" (AoEs targetting the ones with the lowest HP) is the only thing that could make a normally-sized group competetive, but you know yourself, how unfair that would be, how endless the cries would be, and why re-invent the wheel, when DAoC was already near perfect?

Sera

krim

ThyIronFist wrote: »

krim wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

krim wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8Is9SVgy_M&list=UUXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw

This is not good for the game.

I see 24 people running around smashing a handful of enemies all scattered around and then being gobbled up. This is what is supposed to happen. Something thats in the realm of possibility is you recruit some players around there. The only thing stopping everyone is the willingness to group up and work together.

Because what you see there is the most easy way to play the game, it is not even pvp. Everyone in this group is mainly focused on running in close proximity to the leader while spamming the button he`s assigned to, purge, heal or damage. A single button. Maximum two. More is not necessary.

I refuse to call that pvp. Nobody who`s into PvP wants to play like that.

So, as soon as the the majority adapts, everyone, even the good players who are used to press multiple buttons a second, will have no other choice but doing the same. It ends in groups like shown in the video running circles around each other, every player in each group smashing his one button. The sad thing is, there is absolutely no need to press more buttons in such a group. No dodging, no blocking, no interrupting, no focus targeting - all the good stuff that makes pvp what it is becomes obsolete.

PvP players will get bored and leave, simple as that. I`m no supernatural being able to look in the future, it`s just that there`s multiple games out there, where it went exactly into the same direction.

Best regards

Keep telling yourself this. Its obvious some people find it fun. We can argue about the whole skill thing but the truth is its the knowledge thats lacking. Its the amount of effort or the willingness of people to put their skills together. Remember this game has zero cooldowns and only five skill slots, you are always going to be spamming something.

You guys secretly want to be heroes. Your the type of pvper who wants it to be easy. You wish vampire still gave a 60% ulti reduction and can stack batswarm. Something that was actually wrong with the game and had to be fixed. Unlike this post about AE caps which is so sorry because small groups can already take on larger groups its not impossible.

All it takes to counter something like in the video posted is a little coordination. Once people realize this is how cyrodiil works im sure people will have a better time. But this is the age we live in full of toxic trolls and people who are to good to party up with a random PUG.

Lmao, what? Come on man, nobody takes you even serious here in this thread anymore.

This must be fact too, you speak for everyone. Then its probably because you dont have the mental capacity to understand the bigger picture in all this..

Lowbei

Columba wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

no, it wasnt. you obviously need to reread them until you get it. but its become obvious that you are one of the ones who cannot, so i wont bother.

Hmmm... oh yes, here it was, lol from your OP.

"With AE caps, the biggest zerg always wins, leading to morale loss for outnumbered factions."

I guess you just "don't get it?"

lol so far over your head, so far

and krim, thyironfists statement was fairly accurate. i agreed.

Trayyacakes

krim wrote: »

ThyIronFist wrote: »

krim wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

krim wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8Is9SVgy_M&list=UUXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw

This is not good for the game.

I see 24 people running around smashing a handful of enemies all scattered around and then being gobbled up. This is what is supposed to happen. Something thats in the realm of possibility is you recruit some players around there. The only thing stopping everyone is the willingness to group up and work together.

Because what you see there is the most easy way to play the game, it is not even pvp. Everyone in this group is mainly focused on running in close proximity to the leader while spamming the button he`s assigned to, purge, heal or damage. A single button. Maximum two. More is not necessary.

I refuse to call that pvp. Nobody who`s into PvP wants to play like that.

So, as soon as the the majority adapts, everyone, even the good players who are used to press multiple buttons a second, will have no other choice but doing the same. It ends in groups like shown in the video running circles around each other, every player in each group smashing his one button. The sad thing is, there is absolutely no need to press more buttons in such a group. No dodging, no blocking, no interrupting, no focus targeting - all the good stuff that makes pvp what it is becomes obsolete.

PvP players will get bored and leave, simple as that. I`m no supernatural being able to look in the future, it`s just that there`s multiple games out there, where it went exactly into the same direction.

Best regards

Keep telling yourself this. Its obvious some people find it fun. We can argue about the whole skill thing but the truth is its the knowledge thats lacking. Its the amount of effort or the willingness of people to put their skills together. Remember this game has zero cooldowns and only five skill slots, you are always going to be spamming something.

You guys secretly want to be heroes. Your the type of pvper who wants it to be easy. You wish vampire still gave a 60% ulti reduction and can stack batswarm. Something that was actually wrong with the game and had to be fixed. Unlike this post about AE caps which is so sorry because small groups can already take on larger groups its not impossible.

All it takes to counter something like in the video posted is a little coordination. Once people realize this is how cyrodiil works im sure people will have a better time. But this is the age we live in full of toxic trolls and people who are to good to party up with a random PUG.

Lmao, what? Come on man, nobody takes you even serious here in this thread anymore.

This must be fact too, you speak for everyone. Then its probably because you dont have the mental capacity to understand the bigger picture in all this..

What bigger picture is that? Blobs should not be vulnerable to aoe attacks? Nukes shouldn't work against a group in a 8m circle? The bad blobs can be countered. The really good ones can't. The ones who actually keep up immovable the whole time, who purge, and stack barrier. If you run up against a good blob and they outnumber you substantially you stand no chance. You can argue that a group that coordinated will beat a small group without aoe caps, and you are probably right a majority of the time, but it gives the small group a shot.

What is your bigger picture? enlighten me.

Ifthir_ESO

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Then what would you recommend?

The problem, as other posters have said, is ultimate generation via AOE.

You think a batswarming emperor is bad now, but we saw what happens when they can stack ult generation + healing vs 20 targets instead of 6. We had thousands of players quit because it was so OP.

There are so many design and balance issues with PvP right now I don't even know where they need to start.

The fix is arenas, though I know a lot of you dont want to hear that. The minute you have group size limitations and no pugs to feed ultimate to your enemies, these issues dont really exist.

You can't zergball a 6v6 because AOE caps wont take affect.

Columba

Lowbei wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

no, it wasnt. you obviously need to reread them until you get it. but its become obvious that you are one of the ones who cannot, so i wont bother.

Hmmm... oh yes, here it was, lol from your OP.

"With AE caps, the biggest zerg always wins, leading to morale loss for outnumbered factions."

I guess you just "don't get it?"

lol so far over your head, so far

and krim, thyironfists statement was fairly accurate. i agreed.

I guess you don't "get" what you wrote, lol

Lowbei

Columba wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

no, it wasnt. you obviously need to reread them until you get it. but its become obvious that you are one of the ones who cannot, so i wont bother.

Hmmm... oh yes, here it was, lol from your OP.

"With AE caps, the biggest zerg always wins, leading to morale loss for outnumbered factions."

I guess you just "don't get it?"

lol so far over your head, so far

and krim, thyironfists statement was fairly accurate. i agreed.

I guess you don't "get" what you wrote, lol

everyone else "got it" and no offense pal but i dont think anyone here takes you seriously anymore after you claimed that impulse groups were bots

you are obviously not "getting it" so ill ignore you now to spare everyone else from hearing you ramble for 3 more pages

[self edited to adhere to forum regulations about shaming ]

krim

Lowbei wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

no, it wasnt. you obviously need to reread them until you get it. but its become obvious that you are one of the ones who cannot, so i wont bother.

Hmmm... oh yes, here it was, lol from your OP.

"With AE caps, the biggest zerg always wins, leading to morale loss for outnumbered factions."

I guess you just "don't get it?"

lol so far over your head, so far

and krim, thyironfists statement was fairly accurate. i agreed.

I guess people just dont understand the concept of cyrodiil.. Until they add arenas or bgs if they ever do.. Im sorry to say but zerging isnt going anywhere. Not even with the removal of AE caps.

Although with the removal of AE cap my current build would make me into a god in game. If i can ever have more then 6+ people in a 8 meter radius. Its hard for me to keep that many people close to me for an extended period of time.

You want the easy way out man its ok. Like i said theres already methods to combating zerg ballers. But the only way to fight a huge zerg is a huge zerg its thats simple.

Lowbei

no, its really not, and i have been dominating large zergs with smallmans since 2002, so your statement of "only zergs can beat zergs" is quite invalid. you are obviously a zerger and hate the idea of losing to a smallman, but it happens.

Columba

Lowbei wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

no, it wasnt. you obviously need to reread them until you get it. but its become obvious that you are one of the ones who cannot, so i wont bother.

Hmmm... oh yes, here it was, lol from your OP.

"With AE caps, the biggest zerg always wins, leading to morale loss for outnumbered factions."

I guess you just "don't get it?"

lol so far over your head, so far

and krim, thyironfists statement was fairly accurate. i agreed.

I guess you don't "get" what you wrote, lol

everyone else "got it" and no offense pal but i dont think anyone here takes you seriously anymore after you claimed that impulse groups were bots

you are obviously not "getting it" so ill ignore you now to spare everyone else from hearing you ramble for 3 more pages

[self edited to adhere to forum regulations about shaming ]

i think you need to go back and read what you wrote. "With AE caps, the biggest zerg always wins..." then you contradicted that statement. I guess you are too far over your own head, lol. so cry more for your no aoe caps.

Columba

Lowbei wrote: »

no, its really not, and i have been dominating large zergs with smallmans since 2002, so your statement of "only zergs can beat zergs" is quite invalid. you are obviously a zerger and hate the idea of losing to a smallman, but it happens.

Yet you said this...."With AE caps, the biggest zerg always wins..." lol you don't get it, I suppose. your own statements are going way over your own head!

Lowbei

lol just because my group is epic enough to dominate zergs even with the ae caps, doesnt change any of the 15 points. there are always exceptions to the rule. as far as the general population goes, the points are accurate.

this isnt rocket science, and sorry but i simply cant take you seriously anymore lol

Columba

what part of ALWAYS do you fail to grasp? and last i checked, not everyone agrees with you.

If you are able to defeat larger groups, then what are you crying about? You proved it possible. working as intended. Elitists whining that they cannot defeat all zergs, every time, priceless.

Lowbei

lol SO far over his head

Mojomonkeyman

Columba wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

no, its really not, and i have been dominating large zergs with smallmans since 2002, so your statement of "only zergs can beat zergs" is quite invalid. you are obviously a zerger and hate the idea of losing to a smallman, but it happens.

Yet you said this...."With AE caps, the biggest zerg always wins..." lol you don't get it, I suppose. your own statements are going way over your own head!

Maybe he doesn`t consider his smallscale group a zerg?

I think people would take this thread (which is very well thought out and spot on) more serious, if you guys would do the flirting part via PM?! Please?

LtAscott

AoE caps are good, i want more of them, or ON TOP of the AoE caps, i want distance to target to effect the damage, so people on the fringe of AoE take reduced damage. Without it everyone will just go cloth/destro and AoE spam in pvp, it will always only ever be that way. Thats not what i want from PvP. the OP seems to be upset he cant spam AoEs and devouring swarm and wipe a zerg solo anymore. boohoo.

krim

Lowbei wrote: »

no, its really not, and i have been dominating large zergs with smallmans since 2002, so your statement of "only zergs can beat zergs" is quite invalid. you are obviously a zerger and hate the idea of losing to a smallman, but it happens.

This is why i said huge zerg... im not counting 24 man group a zerg.

ps. my guild never at least for the past month hasnt had a full 24 man group once.

but you see me rollin

LtAscott

It is WAR, more WAR then PvP, the intended design is that, 24-60 players group up into a warband and take keeps and win skirmishes, gaining momentum, then seige a keep, overwhelm it and take it. That is the point. The side with higher numbers should always win. Reinforce and ambush them as they are setting up their seige equipment, and counterattack/retake it. One person spamming devouring swarm and AoEs killing everyone defending an entire keep against people solo is ***. I am glad its gone and you should be to.

I personally would like AoE cap to be lowered even more, single target/up to 4.
Multi CC/Snare and AoE spell spamming for partial kill credit sucks, encourage players to fight one on one. In large group battles. Make seige weapons do more damage then player abilities to groups of players.IMO they should be the major AoE to worry about in PvP. Make catapult projectiles slower (easier to avoid) but make it so that if you get off a hit its a one shot. To multiple players. Lower damage on all player AoE abilities based on effected targets up to the cap(reduce the effectiveness overall) this with buff to seige weapon damage IMO is the best route.

Columba

lowbei just doesn't get it. way over his head. contemplate emp groups with no aoe cap, lol. removal of aoe caps will do more harm than good.