Zerg Balling and Forward Camps...We've seen this before *grin*

Xsorus
Xsorus
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For those who don't know what Zerg Balling is



I'm sure most people have seen this in ESO at some point, Its becoming more and more common, and no its not Bots. This is basically the result of AOE caps... This happened in Guild Wars 2 and was again.. because of AOE caps.

However unlike Guild Wars 2, You have zero way to counter this type of thing in ESO. in GW2 you had Arrow Carts, which put pretty much every single Siege in this game to shame in dealing with zerg balls like this. However at the same time, If you added Arrow Carts to this game, They would completely break the game for anyone not doing this.....They're basically ranged oil as best i can describe it.

You also had other ways to counter zergs like this, Namely things like the Guardian Classes Staff abilities (Basically you'd throw down a line in the middle of these groups, this would split the group. Didn't always work, cause while the group in the video above seems large, some of the GW2 version of this were 80 people large, and splitting 40 people off didn't always help)

Either way, There were some reasonable counters this zerg balls of death. This game however doesn't have anything like that. So what you have in this game is only going to get worse... and its not going to improve unless ZOS specifically does something about it.

Now you might wondering...Where have we seen Forward Camps before? You've seen in before in Guild Wars 2, only it was called the Downed System. Thankfully its less of a problem in small mans like it was in GW2, but in large scale pvp..Forward Camps are just another form of the Downed System and the terrible res system that was in Guild Wars 2.

Just like GW2, There is no Res penalty in this game....In fact the only thing dying will do is give the other side its Mana back. This is a fairly huge departure from a game like DAOC, that had a fairly nasty res penalty, if you don't consider you wouldn't be instantly buffed as well upon res. This fuels some of the problems of the Zerg Balling as well, If you do manage to kill someone from the Zerg ball, If there is a forward camp nearby (and there usually is) they'll be back in seconds. If you managed to actually wipe the Zerg Ball, they will all spawn right next to one another with full mana and stamina and be ready to go in seconds again. This has completely removed any penalty for dying in this game.

How the two worst gameplay features of Guild Wars 2, a game a lot of people left because of these 2 features, managed to make it into this game i'll never guess...But they're here now... and ZOS needs to fix it.
  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    I agree, the over reliance on stacking up or zerg balling is what drove me away from gw2 and made me sub to ESO PvP, because ESO advertized itself as a more DAOC-like alternative (which I never played, but I had several guildmates who were still praising DAOC as the best open-world-pvp game ever created).

    Reasons for stacking up in gw2 was not only the AE Caps but the way classes, boons and gear was setup, imo. It lead to a defensive stat favouring pain train meta (guards, warriors, necros) which was never broken during two years of me playing that game. Even most smallscale teams were adapting and running a very defense & boon focused setup (2 guards, 1 warri, 1 ele, 1 necro in pvt i.e.).

    Forward camps in particular, AOE caps not coming far behind are making this game feel more like playing gw2 all over again. Without the option to venture into structured tpvp (arena-like 5vs5 conquest mode), and while paying a sub.

    Dear ZOS, please go your own way and leave the path gw2 went, because that`s what drove many pvpers away from the game.

    Best regards
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy
  • rich_nicholsonb16_ESO
    Why they never took more out of Daoc is beyond me, the best pvp system and by far the best pvp progressive system which keeps you hooked for years.
    Patch 1.2.3 nerfed the game....
    Zergballing wrecked pvp......

    Now waiting for Camelot Unchained!!
  • bugulu
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    There is a counter to trains and that is not to stand in their way.
    A train like that has no maneuvering ability at all (Atleast not the ones I have seen on DC side on Bloodthorn) and splitting up the raid by killing off their stragglers is fairly simple. You can just look at them panicking trying to get back to their zerg.
    I am not to fond of the train tactic though which obligatory have impulse spammers and invisible bat swarms together with banner stacking.

    Remove the aoe cap on abilities and this issue will dissapear.
  • Domander
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    so.... if one group like that runs at another group like that..... what happens?

    It makes me think of Braveheart, heh.

    I think another reason to stay close like that is for buffs/heals
    Edited by Domander on July 14, 2014 8:45AM
  • quakedawg_ESO
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    I fully support removing the AOE cap but I seriously doubt this will eliminate these coordinated guilds as shown in the vid. There are currently ways to easily counter them and some guilds have already adapted (mad props btw). The tools are there.

    Do you guys really feel NOT having an AOE cap would all but make these coordinated trains vanish?

    Daoc didn't have a cap but they had so much CC in that game 3 players could take out 200. Daoc was famous for trains be it melee or the pbaoe bomb variety. If I recall, Warhammer had no cap at launch and I can still hear the screams from those forums. Players raged they couldn't take a keep from only 2 Bright Wizards defending. They added in a cap later. In comparison, many feel the cap ruined GW2 PvP and I totally agree.

    Removing the cap in ESO will not magically give players standing around holding hands situational awareness that a train is coming. You will still have coordinated guilds running on a dime wiping large groups of players albeit much quicker. AP would roll much faster that is for sure.

    Just my .02. Good discussion. I need coffee ...


    Pro Tip: Form a group of 4 and hang out with the zerg. Now you can claim you only run with 4. I'm l33t

    'I've never died in AvA. Undefeated!'
    'My group of 4 will often take on 100+ with no problem. I have videos to prove it'
    'All the abilities on my keyboard require real skill to spam'
  • Xsorus
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    I fully support removing the AOE cap but I seriously doubt this will eliminate these coordinated guilds as shown in the vid. There are currently ways to easily counter them and some guilds have already adapted (mad props btw). The tools are there.

    Do you guys really feel NOT having an AOE cap would all but make these coordinated trains vanish?

    Daoc didn't have a cap but they had so much CC in that game 3 players could take out 200. Daoc was famous for trains be it melee or the pbaoe bomb variety. If I recall, Warhammer had no cap at launch and I can still hear the screams from those forums. Players raged they couldn't take a keep from only 2 Bright Wizards defending. They added in a cap later. In comparison, many feel the cap ruined GW2 PvP and I totally agree.

    Removing the cap in ESO will not magically give players standing around holding hands situational awareness that a train is coming. You will still have coordinated guilds running on a dime wiping large groups of players albeit much quicker. AP would roll much faster that is for sure.

    Just my .02. Good discussion. I need coffee ...


    It wouldn't eliminate coordinated groups, It would however force them to spread out more, and probably rely on surprise attacks more.

    I'll go through a few things, DAOC for example had a lot of CC, however what you also have to remember is you needed it in that game because you needed time to get on top of the targets to initiate the bomb...Esp with SpeedWarps coming into the game later on it made the opening hits a lot harder to pull off. The initial CC was also usually only in the first second of the bomb (unless it Midgard, but even then most purged instantly once hit by that stun). Now usually you didn't actually kill everyone in the initial bomb...All you did was thin the numbers, and afterwards single target spells were used to kill off the people left.


    ESO doesn't have the CC that DAOC has for the opening hits, But what it does have is stealth, on every toon..My group was utilizing this to take out larger zergs before they fixed some of the abilities, Generally what we'd do (now we only had 6 players, not this large group) was take an objective, like the Lumbermill/Mine/Farm, then we'd go sit near the flag stealthed, The Farm for example was perfect for this because we could stealth in the barn, When the opposing zerg came to take it back, and stacked on the flag, we'd stealth up close enough then dive bomb into the group and blow it up. It basically did the same thing as Speed 6 and AOE CC in DAOC did.

    Warhammer is also a funny subject.....Because they added a cap later on in that game because of complaints about AOE, however that was incredibly poor judgement on Mythics part....Because AOE wasn't overpowered in Warhammer Online. You yourself said players raged because 2 bright wizards were defending...And that's true..They did Rage, But that wasn't because AOE was overpowered..it was because Bright Wizard was the most overpowered class ever introduced into any game to date. You never see anyone ever whining about how an Engineer and a Shadow Warrior totally wrecked their zerg..nope, Its always Bright Wizard, Because it had a mechanic that was just atrocious in terms of Balance, For the small price of taking damage when you casted a spell, Which would be instantly healed by your groups Warrior Priest, You'd gain 35% chance to critical hit and a 100% critical damage bonus. There is no mechanic in any game that comes close to that level of a DPS increase.

    So in Warhammer, When they got around to nerfing AOE's and adding the cap, They didn't really fix the problem, Because Bright Wizards still could kill people quite easily, Instead the only thing they managed to do is make the Engineer and Shadow Warrior worse.


    As for removing the cap not fixing the situation, I think it'd go a long way...You have to remember, The reason they're able to stay up for that long is simple, multiple heals covering any damage someone takes, followed by multiple barriers (that doesn't have a cap)..You simply cannot do enough damage to with AOE's right now with the caps to counter that...Because every extra person they have, They gain a % chance to flat out not be hit by AOE damage.

    Second you remove that cap, The second that damage because impossible to handle, I mean hell..Look at what happens when they run into groups of people in that video, They fall over dead...Because they're being hit by multiple AOE's at once and they're taking 100% of that damage.
    Edited by Xsorus on July 14, 2014 9:25AM
  • Columba
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    At the very least increase the cap. The god mode emp group from AD on wabba gets really old. Btw, I avoid their train. Still gets old.
  • Junipus
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    Ignoring the zergs and AoE caps, Forward camps aren't a huge problem if you're smart.

    Whenever I kill someone and they appear again much sooner than would be reasonable if they keep travelled, I know there's a camp around so I avoid them and go looking for that to burn.

    Burning a camp in the wilderness is more of a pain to someone than being constantly ganked.
    The Legendary Nothing
  • IKilled007
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    Runes, negate magic, oil, meatbags by a coordinated defense = death to the zerg ball.
    The only substitute for victory is overkill.
  • Junipus
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    Having now watched the video, it's annoying yes, but easily counterable with another organised guild. Done it plenty of times with zerg balls.

    Unfortunately it seems like DC were randoms with no coordination on a large scale.
    The Legendary Nothing
  • quakedawg_ESO
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    It wouldn't eliminate coordinated groups, It would however force them to spread out more, and probably rely on surprise attacks more.

    I'll go through a few things, DAOC for example had a lot of CC, however what you also have to remember is you needed it in that game because you needed time to get on top of the targets to initiate the bomb...Esp with SpeedWarps coming into the game later on it made the opening hits a lot harder to pull off. The initial CC was also usually only in the first second of the bomb (unless it Midgard, but even then most purged instantly once hit by that stun). Now usually you didn't actually kill everyone in the initial bomb...All you did was thin the numbers, and afterwards single target spells were used to kill off the people left.


    ESO doesn't have the CC that DAOC has for the opening hits, But what it does have is stealth, on every toon..My group was utilizing this to take out larger zergs before they fixed some of the abilities, Generally what we'd do (now we only had 6 players, not this large group) was take an objective, like the Lumbermill/Mine/Farm, then we'd go sit near the flag stealthed, The Farm for example was perfect for this because we could stealth in the barn, When the opposing zerg came to take it back, and stacked on the flag, we'd stealth up close enough then dive bomb into the group and blow it up. It basically did the same thing as Speed 6 and AOE CC in DAOC did.

    Warhammer is also a funny subject.....Because they added a cap later on in that game because of complaints about AOE, however that was incredibly poor judgement on Mythics part....Because AOE wasn't overpowered in Warhammer Online. You yourself said players raged because 2 bright wizards were defending...And that's true..They did Rage, But that wasn't because AOE was overpowered..it was because Bright Wizard was the most overpowered class ever introduced into any game to date. You never see anyone ever whining about how an Engineer and a Shadow Warrior totally wrecked their zerg..nope, Its always Bright Wizard, Because it had a mechanic that was just atrocious in terms of Balance, For the small price of taking damage when you casted a spell, Which would be instantly healed by your groups Warrior Priest, You'd gain 35% chance to critical hit and a 100% critical damage bonus. There is no mechanic in any game that comes close to that level of a DPS increase.

    So in Warhammer, When they got around to nerfing AOE's and adding the cap, They didn't really fix the problem, Because Bright Wizards still could kill people quite easily, Instead the only thing they managed to do is make the Engineer and Shadow Warrior worse.


    As for removing the cap not fixing the situation, I think it'd go a long way...You have to remember, The reason they're able to stay up for that long is simple, multiple heals covering any damage someone takes, followed by multiple barriers (that doesn't have a cap)..You simply cannot do enough damage to with AOE's right now with the caps to counter that...Because every extra person they have, They gain a % chance to flat out not be hit by AOE damage.

    Second you remove that cap, The second that damage because impossible to handle, I mean hell..Look at what happens when they run into groups of people in that video, They fall over dead...Because they're being hit by multiple AOE's at once and they're taking 100% of that damage.

    Honestly can't really disagree with any of your points. Again, I'm totally in favor of removing the cap but just not entirely convinced it will have the expected impact. Might fall more along the lines of a careful what you wish for impact.

    Pro Tip: Form a group of 4 and hang out with the zerg. Now you can claim you only run with 4. I'm l33t

    'I've never died in AvA. Undefeated!'
    'My group of 4 will often take on 100+ with no problem. I have videos to prove it'
    'All the abilities on my keyboard require real skill to spam'
  • synnerman
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    One thing is certain , if ZOS don't address this then it will ruin PvP and people just won't bother.
    Its ok saying move out of the way but what about when that "way" is defending the breach, do we just move out of the way whilst they insta-kill the flags and take the keep.
    Its getting very boring at the moment running into these groups and trying to PvP against them.
    I know in my guild people are getting very bored with it happening and starting to not bother.
  • Aprodite
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    synnerman wrote: »
    One thing is certain , if ZOS don't address this then it will ruin PvP and people just won't bother.
    Its ok saying move out of the way but what about when that "way" is defending the breach, do we just move out of the way whilst they insta-kill the flags and take the keep.
    Its getting very boring at the moment running into these groups and trying to PvP against them.
    I know in my guild people are getting very bored with it happening and starting to not bother.

    I have the same feeling this moment. I don't mind to attack or defend a keep or whatever and the enemy makes it you very hard. But if such a train comes a long and killed everybody on his way because players can't get away that quickly. You respawn get back and all you are doing is "try" to destroy this train. 1, 2 times it is fun but now it's getting boring me. I am here for my fun but fighting these trains is not the pvp I I enjoy being in Cyrodiil.

    Rip Aprodite - Sorcerer AD-Eur (it was fun untill patch 1.6, I became a tank. They gave me this strong shield to protect me. It became stronger if I stacked magicka. I never asked for this and now you expect from me to relearn my sorcerer again and spent my hardworking money on a broken game.. what do you think? Never forget 5-29-2016!) What a mess!
  • Nijjion
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    Having now watched the video, it's annoying yes, but easily counterable with another organised guild. Done it plenty of times with zerg balls.

    Unfortunately it seems like DC were randoms with no coordination on a large scale.

    Then you get this....

    NijjijjioN - DK - AR27
    NijjioN - NB -
    Daggerfall Covenant
    The Nice Guys Guild
    EverQuest -> Dark Age of Camelot -> Ragnarok Online -> Cabal Online -> Guild Wars 1 -> Warhammer Online -> Vindictus -> SWTOR -> Tera -> Guild Wars 2 -> Elder Scrolls Online ->

    Eagerly awaiting Camelot Unchained.
  • Ifthir_ESO
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    There is no Res penalty in this game....In fact the only thing dying will do is give the other side its Mana back.


    This to me is one of the biggest issues in PvP. Right now people use suicide as a quick teleport to a forward camp halfway across the map. Entire raids just suiciding so they can use fast travel...

    They need to make forward camps only respawnable inside their range and you should have to be a group member.
  • Raven888
    Raven888
    Soul Shriven
    I am glad you reference GW2, because I think there are direct lessons to be learned there. What I really didn't like about the zerg balls in GW2 is that I felt like they did a great deal to remove or otherwise limit the dynamics of battlefield tactics, making things rather simple, as in "clump versus clump". And by "clump", I mean what you mean, as in about 50 or 60 characters trying to stand and move as one, all in one exact spot, just to capitalize the AOE cap.

    Total limitation was not entirely true, of course, because as you point out, there were obvious anti-zerg-ball tactics. And there was indeed some large-group battlefield maneuver at times, but after a while, it sort of devolved into a matter of simply staying in one big clump, with folks shouting in TS, "ball up, ball up!" Really, it was not so much about positioning, flanking, and so on or anything like skill. My point here is that, yes, countering with another zerg ball can be done, but in this situation, you are kind of forced to do it. Then at some point it is all anybody can do and all anybody ever does, which equals obnoxious monotony.

    In other words, this problem really did "dumb down" a good game.

    GW2 created a situation that put a real limitation on what you could expect to see and run into during WvW matches, in my humble opinion. As the other poster commented, other group buffing/boon factors contributed too. Being forced into a zerg ball was probably more the case if you wanted to take a keep, for example, (i.e. actually play the game to complete its intended objectives) and not so much the case in small-unit exchanges or in roaming. But isn't that the whole point?

    Anyway, I am agreeing with you here and I don't want to see a repeat of this awful syndrome in ESO. I am not certain what the solution is, but I hope the ESO folks will take a close look at this, AOE caps and death-penalty-free tents in particular. Two similar dynamics weighed heavily on GW2 PVP and made the experience much less than it should have been --- even to the point that a lot times PVP was predictable and sometimes either boring or silly, and in the end, mostly just frustrating.

    This is also not just an idle gripe, on my part. I put an absolute mountain of time into GW2 WvW. I had a blast and I did not give up easily. Not at all. In the end, I maybe did not lose my patience --- but I certainly did lose interest, utterly, because it seemed that every WvW was “wash and repeat”.

    P.S.:

    By the way, I enjoyed your various Youtube spec/design videos, especially on the BM bunker build in GW2, which I found useful at the time. Now that I have recently migrated to ESO, I have been checking your Youtube channel one or twice a month for some nuts-and-bolts discussions from you on ESO builds.

    I realize, of course, that the ESO system is multifaceted and allows for a large number of sometimes atypical builds for the genre, as it seems ESO wants to defy the "one best build" or "flavor of the month".

    However, with all that said, I would still like to watch a detailed ESO-builds discussion from you, as in something along the lines of what you did on your BM bunkers.
  • rich_nicholsonb16_ESO
    Such a good game which will be rotting in all those other games that have failed to deliver a good pvp mmo If they don't do something soon.

    Not saying these will kill off this game but next year you have Camelot Unchained, a pvp game which is made by the other guy who made Daoc in which early signs are showing that it will be close to daoc2 as you can get. Another is Archeage, a different game but has something about it that reminds me of Ultima Online which was a very popular game in it's day.
    Players will leave this game if they don't sort it out to newer mmo's who might deliver. Then when that happens you get a huge knock on effect.

    I've seen these zerg balls running everyday from probably the 2nd week into the game, ppl had figured out the game mechanics really quickly and stuck too this easy way of playing. The aoe cap is to blame i don't care what ever anyone else has to say about it, in Daoc there was no area cap and guess what, the server could handle groups of 6-8 blowing up 50+ ppl in an instant. So why do Zos say that they need an aoe cap to reduce the lag if a game 14 years old with older server tech can handle it?

    Then there is the end game pvp...there is none. You gain alliance levels for what reason? to gain a skill point which you don't need cause you already have all your skills and passives that you are going to use by level 50. Least Daoc has a end game system which got you hooked for years.

    The only thing i prefer in this compared to Daoc is cyrodiil, i think it's a lovely zone even though Daoc's old frontiers was probably bigger, cyrodiil looks like a war is happening with all those trenches around certain keeps, broken trees, burnt out houses...it looks great!

    Zos really does need to sort this side of the game out and starting with aoe caps could be a good start.
    Patch 1.2.3 nerfed the game....
    Zergballing wrecked pvp......

    Now waiting for Camelot Unchained!!
  • Brandoid
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    Nijjion wrote: »
    Having now watched the video, it's annoying yes, but easily counterable with another organised guild. Done it plenty of times with zerg balls.

    Unfortunately it seems like DC were randoms with no coordination on a large scale.

    Then you get this....


    A negate or two would've made all the difference.

    Edit: Many negates
    Edited by Brandoid on July 14, 2014 1:30PM
    Brandoid - Templar - Ebonheart Pack
  • Mud_Puppy
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    Why they never took more out of Daoc is beyond me, the best pvp system and by far the best pvp progressive system which keeps you hooked for years.

    THANK YOU
    /kill
  • dennis.schmelzleb16_ESO
    Brandoid wrote: »
    Nijjion wrote: »
    Having now watched the video, it's annoying yes, but easily counterable with another organised guild. Done it plenty of times with zerg balls.

    Unfortunately it seems like DC were randoms with no coordination on a large scale.

    Then you get this....


    A negate or two would've made all the difference.

    Edit: Many negates

    Negate Magic useless with everyone running full magicka (no stamina skills) and so able to have Unstoppable up 24/7.
    Same with CC.

    Only thing to counter this zergballs without getting rid of the cap is having some sort of assist-mechanics which ESO doesn't have. Targeting one player without it is impossible when they ball up.
    An assist-mechanic would allow you to spread out and spike them one by one.

    My suggestions:
    1. Heavy death penalty after ressurecting at a forward camp. (2-5 minutes)
    2. Forward camp only usable when dying inside the circle of it.
    3. Assist mechanic so that single target spells are a possible counter for coordinated groups (doesn't affect small scale, as spiking one player is much easer with only 5 enemies, than with 24 standing on one spot)

    With assist mechanic I mean getting the lock of your teammates. You still have to aim by yourself, but at least you can see who your groupleader is aiming at.

    Edited by dennis.schmelzleb16_ESO on July 14, 2014 3:27PM
  • Columba
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    Honestly, increase the cc cap slowly to get the balance about right. daoc had too much effing cc, and it lasted way too long. I definitely don't want that crap either.
  • DontBeAfraid
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    For those who don't know what Zerg Balling is





    how can u NOT morph dragon blood to green dragon blood.
    other morph so incredible bad




    but despites that i totally agree with your post.
    current pvp gameplay and the resoluting tactics are far from fun.
    gj matt ;)
    Edited by DontBeAfraid on July 14, 2014 3:48PM
    Marlic - Dragonknight - VR12 - Aldmeri Dominion - PvP Rank 29 - Ex-Emperor on Dawnbreaker - EU


  • Lowbei
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    ae caps killed my father
  • pitdemon_ESO
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    Hate to say this but the best weapon vs AE zergballs currently are stealthers.

    The amount of times that I've helped to pick off stragglers to the point that my own team's zergball was much larger than the other team's zergball is unreal. Maybe it's just my faction on Wabba (DC), but it seems like that's how we usually prevail vs a larger, and probably much more organized team.
    The Grixxitt of Melek - Alfar Nightblade
    Grixx of the Reach - Crafter/Reachwitch/Sorceror


    Must...downvote...stupidity... (clicks sidebar furiously)
  • Forztr
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    If my understanding of mechanics is right AOE damage hits 6x random players in the area but AOE heals heal the 6 lowest health.

    If AOE damage always hit the lowest health in the area would this fix/improve things since it would allow the balls to be whittled down without reducing the AOE cap?

    Is my thinking above flawed/wrong/stupid?

    Also if AOE caps were removed would the radius of abilities need to be reduced to stop them becoming too OP?
  • Rallick71
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    The Zerg ball like that really isn't accomplishing anything but being a nuisance.

    They aren't taking any Keeps to help their team at all. Just stay away from them. If they actually 'try' to be useful and take a Keep with Siege...hit them then.
  • VagabondAngel
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    Rallick71 wrote: »
    The Zerg ball like that really isn't accomplishing anything but being a nuisance.

    They aren't taking any Keeps to help their team at all. Just stay away from them. If they actually 'try' to be useful and take a Keep with Siege...hit them then.
    It's called AP farming and is popular amongst many of the highest scoring players - taking keeps doesn't give as much AP as repeatedly wiping an attacking group using fire ring and batswarm spam. For that style of player, the PvP experience is of lesser importance than AP. I wonder how long that can last though...? Can their enthusiasm for spamming the same skill over and over, day after day outlast the enthusiasm of other players who want a good battle and talk strategy and yet just get wiped by batswarming zergs?

    Alliance Points are the destination, the fight is the journey. Which is more important in the long run? If you find yourself in one of the AoE spamming zergs who destroy all before them, stop for minute as you leap with glee and smash another 50 players under-foot and think about how much fun it will be when there are no more players to smash... you know, when they're bored of it.

    Long live the Emperor.
    And not forgetting his friends, the Former Emperors... all 50,000 of them.
    Edited by VagabondAngel on July 14, 2014 4:53PM
    ~ Níamh ~
    ~ Ebonheart Pact ~

    ~ SatGNU - PC - EU ~
  • Cody
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    I think they should have just increased the cost of AOEs. and yes, I know it already did get increased, but I think it should get increased even further, and these caps should be removed.
    Edited by Cody on July 14, 2014 4:46PM
  • Durham
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    How about drastically less APs for killing 1 player with a group of 20..... or 16 v 4
    PVP DEADWAIT
    PVE Eternal Destiny
  • Durham
    Durham
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Im not sure how people play like this honestly... they cant be very good they only have to hit 2 maybe 3 buttons .. But I think they are getting to many APs for the amount of skill it takes to do this... Someone with very little skill and ability can make good APs with this tatic ....
    PVP DEADWAIT
    PVE Eternal Destiny
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