Charge&Talon Combo

Honfold

So I have not seen much discussion of this on the forums or at least not enough of it. I am not sure if this is a bug or an intentional feature so any clarification would be great. Like many of you have experienced, the DK charge then talon combo creates a stun that you cannot break. You are forced to sit through the duration of the charge stun unable to break out of it. I have also experienced this with other CC combos like charge and crystal shards. So are some CCs just broken, is it a design feature, and has ZOS said anything about it?

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO

I think is a bug, I have tested with friends and this only happened sometimes.

Rylana

its not just invasion + talons

Its any combination of stun/knockdown then immobile/root

Perphection

I sincerely hope this is a bug, and not intentional. CC definitely needs to be looked at again at some point.

dcincali

It's broken. I love when the same garbage DK does this to me repeatedly like its the only two skills they have on their bar.. So bad.. So bad..

apostate9

dcincali wrote: »

It's broken. I love when the same garbage DK does this to me repeatedly like its the only two skills they have on their bar.. So bad.. So bad..

In other words, you hate getting roflstomped because you suck at PVP. You wish opponents would show how elite they are, and use a broader spectrum of inefficient skill combos, thus giving you more time to spam your broken crystal shards or whatnot. So to recap, *garbage players* are the ones that crush you repeatedly like an insect, and *good* player are the ones who accommodate you, and die.

Understood.

Try an easier game. Here's a hanky.

Mojomonkeyman

apostate9 wrote: »

show previous quotes

dcincali wrote: »

It's broken. I love when the same garbage DK does this to me repeatedly like its the only two skills they have on their bar.. So bad.. So bad..

In other words, you hate getting roflstomped because you suck at PVP. You wish opponents would show how elite they are, and use a broader spectrum of inefficient skill combos, thus giving you more time to spam your broken crystal shards or whatnot. So to recap, *garbage players* are the ones that crush you repeatedly like an insect, and *good* player are the ones who accommodate you, and die.

Understood.

Try an easier game. Here's a hanky.

Uhm, he was talking about players mainly using two skills that, in combination, reportedly cause cc break to not work. Sorry, that it is your class that can reproduce this abuse with 100% certainty, but your analysis is pretty much crap.

According to your logic, any exploit would be legit and "good", just because it is efficient?

I played serious PvP games for 10 years (starcraft) and I can guarantee you, repeatedly pressing two buttons that you know bugging out cc break is not the definition of good play...

I smell someone`s afraid he`s not as good of a player he might think he is and is afraid of losing his only way of getting kills.

Understood.

Try a serious pvp game. Here`s a hanky.

SilentThunder

first off LOL at Starcraft being a "serious" pvp game.

I have to agree that its seriously annoying that the combination of knockdown + any other CC is unbreakable. Its a bug and needs to be fixed. Any one who claims that the exploitation of a bug has any relation to actual skill is just wrong.

Tintinabula

Uhm if that's the ONLY thing you die to..charge and talon?..there's a problem..and not just with the "garbage DK"

Its a basic opener. Stun your enemy. Lock them in place. dps. dps. dps. Im not gonna stop using it cause it bugs out occasionally..sorry

naturn

This is such a frustrating bug and it is exploited constantly not just once in a while.

Tintinabula

as I have stated before. Its a basic move. What if shards bugged out to keep ppl on the ground unable to get up? Tell sorcs not to use shards? What if Nova stunned ppl indefinitely til death..tell Templars not to use their ultimate? What if ambush perma stunned ppl?Tell NBs not to use ambush?..of course not.

It probably is bugged. But expecting DKs not to use that combo is basically asking us to run at you while flapping our dragon scale wings hoping you wont notice so we can "just reflect you"...aint gonna happen.;)

Dekkameron

Hmm.. i use invasion/burning talons all the time... I wasn't aware it was bugged. Oops.

But i like those skills Ok i'll try not to use it.

SBR_QuorTek

There is a difference... a root just roots you there.. a CC (knock down/stun/mezmerized etc) make you temporarely not able to do anything other than a CC break where as rooted you can still shoot back.

A counter to it would be having a skill that pushes enemies away, eg. the one with bow.. that way you might be rooted but you can still fight back... getting knocked down in general has doomed you anyway. putting the root after just makes you stand still but still able to attack back.

So CC + Root, most classes can do something alike that easy enough, so since it is there, one just have to have defenses up for it as well.

Maybe if it is an issue persons should put on a push back or knockdown skill onto the skill bar and use it, one has two bars to play around with as it is.

Honfold

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

There is a difference... a root just roots you there.. a CC (knock down/stun/mezmerized etc) make you temporarely not able to do anything other than a CC break where as rooted you can still shoot back.

A counter to it would be having a skill that pushes enemies away, eg. the one with bow.. that way you might be rooted but you can still fight back... getting knocked down in general has doomed you anyway. putting the root after just makes you stand still but still able to attack back.

So CC + Root, most classes can do something alike that easy enough, so since it is there, one just have to have defenses up for it as well.

Maybe if it is an issue persons should put on a push back or knockdown skill onto the skill bar and use it, one has two bars to play around with as it is.

Not attacking what you are saying here, just pointing this post out. What you have said above seems like a design feature rather than just a bug.

Mojomonkeyman

Honfold wrote: »

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SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

There is a difference... a root just roots you there.. a CC (knock down/stun/mezmerized etc) make you temporarely not able to do anything other than a CC break where as rooted you can still shoot back.

A counter to it would be having a skill that pushes enemies away, eg. the one with bow.. that way you might be rooted but you can still fight back... getting knocked down in general has doomed you anyway. putting the root after just makes you stand still but still able to attack back.

So CC + Root, most classes can do something alike that easy enough, so since it is there, one just have to have defenses up for it as well.

Maybe if it is an issue persons should put on a push back or knockdown skill onto the skill bar and use it, one has two bars to play around with as it is.

Not attacking what you are saying here, just pointing this post out. What you have said above seems like a design feature rather than just a bug.

You DK guys seriously happen to think applying an unbreakable cc that is applying DOT and direct damage to your enemy giving you enough time to burst him to 30% as an OPENER is a design feature?

I`m all for balance, actually I think DKs are in a pretty good spot right now and feel with you guys, that i.e. talons with reduced range shouldnt cost the crapload of mana it does if it happens to miss its targets. But that just isn`t fair, period.

And by the way, I get hit by fragments all the time, I never had the issue of not being able to break out of it in due time. If it happens to cause the same issue in combination with roots (stampede, encase) it needs to be looked at as well.

Best regards

Tintinabula

Ill tell you now I have 4 skills that I use between Invasion and talons and over half the time ppl lay there through all 4 dumbfounded they were knocked to the ground.

Mojomonkeyman

So are we talking dumb or buggy mechanics? No balancing in the world can make up for dumb.

I was talking about giving decent players the opportunity to break the friggin stun, give the ones who arnt dumb and slow an option to counter, like cc is supposed to have.

Regards

Tintinabula

Actually..I think its a combination of the two. When I first heard of this bug it had nothing to do with DKs but infact Templars.

The hate for DKs is strong and even though the OP admits this bug can occur with any stun/root combo what is this thread about? DKs and Invasion /Talons.

I think at least half the ppl raging here weren't perma stunned..they're just upset cause they haven't figured out a counter..so..what better place to come complain.

Ive been perma stunned a handful of times but my BF has it happen atleast once daily(and not by DKs) Your entire skill bar just goes gray and there's no getting out of anything.

Mojomonkeyman

Because it is probably the most common situation to experience said combination when encountering a DK (who are not exactly a rare sight in Cyro).

I think you`re taking a valid concern a tad to personal. I`m all against the nerfing cycle that has already started, but that doesn`t make the (ab-)use of a hopefully buggy mechanic less of a concern, right?

Best regards

Tintinabula

I'm in total agreement. I don't want to kill people knowing I have bugged them out. I don't like killing enemies when they're obviously experiencing 2 fps either ...however...when ppl start chiming in and saying that using that specific opener makes you a garbage DK or an exploiter..yea I take it personally..I use it as a regular opener to my rotation simply because I feel it's the best thing to open with..rather than running at an enemy with reflective wings flapping and casting my shields to let the enemy know "hey I'm here and ready to reflect you..shoot now!"

nukeyoo

I didn't see anyone mention this so I figured I would. Blocking when you see a guy with a shield looking in your general direction can prevent that initial knockdown/stun. Dodging when you see them coming at you quickly looking like they're about to fall over can prevent that initial knockdown/stun and possibly avoid the root also.

Mojomonkeyman

Again, we are already over talking over dumb & slow, nukeyoo. I don`t have to explain that this is not viable at all for some classes/speccs to keep up preemptively dodging with a 1h/shield user. I`d prefer being able to break cc when im cc´ed. Dieing while doing stuff can be fun, dieing while lieing on the ground despite having ressources to break it is not.

dcincali

apostate9 wrote: »

show previous quotes

dcincali wrote: »

It's broken. I love when the same garbage DK does this to me repeatedly like its the only two skills they have on their bar.. So bad.. So bad..

In other words, you hate getting roflstomped because you suck at PVP. You wish opponents would show how elite they are, and use a broader spectrum of inefficient skill combos, thus giving you more time to spam your broken crystal shards or whatnot. So to recap, *garbage players* are the ones that crush you repeatedly like an insect, and *good* player are the ones who accommodate you, and die.

Understood.

Try an easier game. Here's a hanky.

I never said I died, gj reading into my post assuming that all DK's are god mode and can kill everyone with these cheese skills.. I play temp and dk and for your easier game? This game is easy kid.. This aint my first mmo..

dcincali

Tintinabula wrote: »

Actually..I think its a combination of the two. When I first heard of this bug it had nothing to do with DKs but infact Templars.

The hate for DKs is strong and even though the OP admits this bug can occur with any stun/root combo what is this thread about? DKs and Invasion /Talons.

I think at least half the ppl raging here weren't perma stunned..they're just upset cause they haven't figured out a counter..so..what better place to come complain.

Ive been perma stunned a handful of times but my BF has it happen atleast once daily(and not by DKs) Your entire skill bar just goes gray and there's no getting out of anything.

Its more common with DK's as temps dont have a root unless they were using the mage guild skill then dashing into them in mid air which was fixed last patch.

SBR_QuorTek

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Again, we are already over talking over dumb & slow, nukeyoo. I don`t have to explain that this is not viable at all for some classes/speccs to keep up preemptively dodging with a 1h/shield user. I`d prefer being able to break cc when im cc´ed. Dieing while doing stuff can be fun, dieing while lieing on the ground despite having ressources to break it is not.

Every class has a counter or similiar skill thing... it doesn't have to be exactly the same look alike thing or way of doing it.. and can even be looking inversed depending on if ranged or close range.

As a ranged woudl prefere to lock down people at range and as a close range I would like being able to get close on people for locking them down.

You don't need to have to be a 1h+shield to do it either, there is skills that knocks down as well working the same way... there is absolutely no point in just flagging one class just because it may be more plentifull, but it is sort of normal though, people forget to see what they are capable of by them self as well.

When you are rooted you can still attack back.... you can stun and knock down/back as well during that to the same extend.... bet people are not crying when a sorcere or something else stuns/knock downs someone.

Mojomonkeyman

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

show previous quotes

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Again, we are already over talking over dumb & slow, nukeyoo. I don`t have to explain that this is not viable at all for some classes/speccs to keep up preemptively dodging with a 1h/shield user. I`d prefer being able to break cc when im cc´ed. Dieing while doing stuff can be fun, dieing while lieing on the ground despite having ressources to break it is not.

Every class has a counter or similiar skill thing... it doesn't have to be exactly the same look alike thing or way of doing it.. and can even be looking inversed depending on if ranged or close range.

As a ranged woudl prefere to lock down people at range and as a close range I would like being able to get close on people for locking them down.

You don't need to have to be a 1h+shield to do it either, there is skills that knocks down as well working the same way... there is absolutely no point in just flagging one class just because it may be more plentifull, but it is sort of normal though, people forget to see what they are capable of by them self as well.

When you are rooted you can still attack back.... you can stun and knock down/back as well during that to the same extend.... bet people are not crying when a sorcere or something else stuns/knock downs someone.

I think you missed the point, I was solely discussing the unbreakable cc combo of root & knockdown, which is just most commonly experienced when facing a 1h/shield DK (at least by me).

I already stated, I think DK`s are somewhat fine. I just don`t think that such a mechanic (unbreakable cc) should have a place in this game, since it is very burst heavy.

Regards

nukeyoo

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Again, we are already over talking over dumb & slow, nukeyoo. I don`t have to explain that this is not viable at all for some classes/speccs to keep up preemptively dodging with a 1h/shield user. I`d prefer being able to break cc when im cc´ed. Dieing while doing stuff can be fun, dieing while lieing on the ground despite having ressources to break it is not.

If you're going to attempt to insult someone you could you please arrange the insult in a grammatical manner that allows people to understand it? Or was it an insult? I can't tell.

I understand that the bug is frustrating. I've experienced it many of times on my sorc. My suggestion is simply offering away to avoid it altogether with better situational awareness. Knowing your opponents class and weapon sets is a big indicator of what could be possibly coming your way.

If you want to "do stuff" like hard cast spells/abilities in front of a dude with a shield; you should expect to get invaded and most likely talon'd. Expecting DK's to stop using one of their most effective combinations is "dumb and slow". This combination is effective without the bug.

But until ZoS ever figures out whats wrong with their code, folks might want to become better situationally aware and use those resources to avoid being found on the floor unable to use them.

Mojomonkeyman

nukeyoo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Again, we are already over talking over dumb & slow, nukeyoo. I don`t have to explain that this is not viable at all for some classes/speccs to keep up preemptively dodging with a 1h/shield user. I`d prefer being able to break cc when im cc´ed. Dieing while doing stuff can be fun, dieing while lieing on the ground despite having ressources to break it is not.

If you're going to attempt to insult someone you could you please arrange the insult in a grammatical manner that allows people to understand it? Or was it an insult? I can't tell.

I understand that the bug is frustrating. I've experienced it many of times on my sorc. My suggestion is simply offering away to avoid it altogether with better situational awareness. Knowing your opponents class and weapon sets is a big indicator of what could be possibly coming your way.

If you want to "do stuff" like hard cast spells/abilities in front of a dude with a shield; you should expect to get invaded and most likely talon'd. Expecting DK's to stop using one of their most effective combinations is "dumb and slow". This combination is effective without the bug.

But until ZoS ever figures out whats wrong with their code, folks might want to become better situationally aware and use those resources to avoid being found on the floor unable to use them.

English is not my native english, these are international forums, get over it. It seems you are the only one who didn`t get my message.

If you would`ve bothered checking the posts of this thread you`d quickly realize what I was saying with my first sentence. No insult at all. Since you obviously haven`t I will waste a bit more of my time with explanations to someone who`s just trying to look clever:

Don`t bother explaining basic pvp mechanics. People here were discussing a specific combination of skills that cause cc break to bug out. Assuming both players (the one suffering from unbreakable cc and the one applying it) are not "dumb and/or slow".

Please quote me saying DKs should stop using invasion & talons! Please quote me complaining, that my chain casted shards cause me to die to DKs! Learn to read posts before answering to them. You make yourself look like a fool throwing wild accusations into an otherwise totally objective discussion (well, aside of a few comments which were not made by me).

It was never up to discussion for me whether people have to find solutions around the issue (thats the most natural process), nor that I have problems dealing with it (which I don`t), I was just highlighting that there is indeed an issue with cc mechanics very well displayed and experienced by the example of the DK class.

Yeah, now keep on writing passive-aggressive paragraphs trying to convince the world that you`re a great forum warrior with ingenius ideas on how to work around issues.

So much love.

SBR_QuorTek

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

show previous quotes

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Again, we are already over talking over dumb & slow, nukeyoo. I don`t have to explain that this is not viable at all for some classes/speccs to keep up preemptively dodging with a 1h/shield user. I`d prefer being able to break cc when im cc´ed. Dieing while doing stuff can be fun, dieing while lieing on the ground despite having ressources to break it is not.

Every class has a counter or similiar skill thing... it doesn't have to be exactly the same look alike thing or way of doing it.. and can even be looking inversed depending on if ranged or close range.

As a ranged woudl prefere to lock down people at range and as a close range I would like being able to get close on people for locking them down.

You don't need to have to be a 1h+shield to do it either, there is skills that knocks down as well working the same way... there is absolutely no point in just flagging one class just because it may be more plentifull, but it is sort of normal though, people forget to see what they are capable of by them self as well.

When you are rooted you can still attack back.... you can stun and knock down/back as well during that to the same extend.... bet people are not crying when a sorcere or something else stuns/knock downs someone.

I think you missed the point, I was solely discussing the unbreakable cc combo of root & knockdown, which is just most commonly experienced when facing a 1h/shield DK (at least by me).

I already stated, I think DK`s are somewhat fine. I just don`t think that such a mechanic (unbreakable cc) should have a place in this game, since it is very burst heavy.

Regards

The knockdown you can get out of, but the root you cannot just as easely, believe it can be dodge rolled out from though, never noticed or tested that thing though.

The thing is though mechanic wise along side with something similiar rooted in one place but still able to fend for your life one way or another, my entire idealogy is using what one can to counter it, it is not impossible to do so either.. pvp wise it is good to have something of this and that for odd situations.

But also it is not possible to have every little defence offense at hand, so have to go by some of what works and can be usefull... meaning you would or could be more vulnerable to one kind of attack but more effective against something else, it is all up to people to ward against this or that situation which actually make PvP more fun as you do not always know what you can expect to be up from and if the usual player go like this the first couple of hours.. then spend one or some of his other skills to go the other way around later on is not an unseen thing either.

Dunno have spend aroudn 220 skill points on my NB for an instance to be more versaitile depending on what the situations bid... but prefere going same old same old for the most part... (still have 42 unused skill points) to mention an example.

Edit:

If want to kill a DK.. do it ranged, it is the most annoying thing as a DK.. a couple of ranged people usually am the doom for a DK.

Kevinmon

99% of players in pvp use the charge and talon combo

100% of the time it is impossible to cc break to get out of it, and I just die every time instantly.

Tintinabula

...and 30-35% of the time it bugs