To the people who defend the game

Johnnydangerous75

Bethesda's first MMO, am I correct? I say Kudos to them, they are doing a great job so far. I only have lag issues due to my laptop on wifi :P.

Ser Lobo

Blackwidow wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

While an insightful post, Op, I will say one thing:

I come to the forums to discuss features and design decisions. When I actually have an issue, or something I directly want to feedback, I do not do so on the forums. When I have a complaint, I do not do so on the forums.

Great. That is your choice.

I use recommended in-game /feedback and /bug reports first. At the most, I may go to the Customer Service section of the forums. I honestly don't expect any type of oversight here on the forums from development teams, and to see that it DOES happen (as community manager Jessica is constantly sending our stuff up the chain) is a blessing, but not the standard.

You even admit, it does happen.

If the information is important, there are appropriate ways to handle it. If a player can not or will not use appropriate channels for their problem, then they are someone who is not truly looking for a fix, but instead are looking to create drama and generate hateful feelings. That negative player becomes a 'troll'.

You are being so close minded, you will contradict yourself, to justify the way you think.

The forums are here for conversation about the game. All aspects of the game.

These forums are appropriate channels, like it or not.

And yes, I'm saying any complaint post on these General Discussion forums is, by it's very nature, a troll thread.

You can have that opinion, but you might want to keep it to yourself.

To call others trolls is in fact against forum rules. Which makes your post the one thing you are fighting against, which are troll posts.

Just FYI.

Have a nice day.

I see you took offense.

My overall point was clear, at least I had hoped. Posting problems on the forums specifically to bend the ear for developers, no matter what game you are in (that includes EvE, where devs are much more outspoken on their forums than anywhere else I know), is a exercise in futility.

There are too many posts.

By too many posters.

With too many differing experiences.

And too many different opinions.

The fact that every now and then something we say here makes it into the game, is probably more related to players actually using the proper tools, and I would bet has absolutely nothing to do with these here forums at all. Or a community manager forwarded that idea up ... which she could have gotten off of facebook, reddit, personal messages, email, or any other means of communication.


And wait, did you call my post a troll post? Is the cycle of irony never complete?

Malpherian

Cogo wrote: »

Shiroro wrote: »

ZOS seems to have pretty terrible mid/upper management. I'm guessing they're just winging everything. I don't mind longer than scheduled maintenances (it happens) but I absolutely can't stand that there are dozens of changes in every patch that AREN'T IN THE PATCH NOTES!

I would say they need to focus on attacking the lag problem right now, then move on to improving quality of life for vet rank players.

Cut and paste from patch notes:

The Elder Scrolls Online v1.2.4 is an incremental patch featuring fixes to gameplay and quests, including a fix for Silver Bolts, the sudden drop in FPS that you’re seeing in Cyrodiil, and weapon swapping breaking stealth.

I highlighted what very common in every patch in every MMO, is that they dont list all the million fixes they do. Just the important ones.

Instead of showing you directly in how many ways they ONLY working for Vet players (there are more players in game then vets), then I ask you kindly to look at what they are working on right now. What they have planed for next patch and what they have planned after that. The majority is Vet content. Ask PvPer what they think of that. They want the justice system, both new guilds and the pvp city now!

Vet content comes first. Not sure what you going for.....

Actually no, Vet Content does not come first, because if the game is broken while your leveling (IE so many quests that are broken and do not work), Then the player will quit un-sub and never make it to veteran. And tell their friends or anyone they meet interested in buying the game:

"Man yo, don't buy that POS, I couldn't even make it to max level it's so bugged!"

Rather then:

"Man Yo, The games great but the end game kinda blows right now."

Obviously the latter is the desired goal, and is a better selling point then the former.

In any case, Around 60% of ESO's Current population are New players, Not veterans. And while retaining Veteran Subs is important, ensuring that new players can actually make it to the veteran ranks without un-subing and leaving a horrible review of the game is probably more important.

circilion

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

What makes me LOL are the lengthy hater posts. As frustrating as bugs are, it's just a game. Yeah, I spent $60 + subs for it. But that is a tiny amount of money. Not enough to get all hell bent about it. I know on occasion I've posted my frustrations, but I just gotta laugh at the extent to which some of them go to.

The energy that is spent hating on this game would be better spent on raising awareness to (and this is for US readers; insert your own country's issues here) the continual erosion of our Consititutional rights, our fiat monetary system, the 1% vs the 99%, our general kleptocracy and crony capitalist system. Just to name a few.

Pfft, you and your "Real Issues" I prefer to get so Immersed in this game that everything that happens in it is more important than anything in real life. This includes *Mortgage,*Wife,*Kids, ext.

Get your priorities strait man. Are you a TES gamer or not!!

Malpherian

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

What makes me LOL are the lengthy hater posts. As frustrating as bugs are, it's just a game. Yeah, I spent $60 + subs for it. But that is a tiny amount of money. Not enough to get all hell bent about it. I know on occasion I've posted my frustrations, but I just gotta laugh at the extent to which some of them go to.

The energy that is spent hating on this game would be better spent on raising awareness to (and this is for US readers; insert your own country's issues here) the continual erosion of our Consititutional rights, our fiat monetary system, the 1% vs the 99%, our general kleptocracy and crony capitalist system. Just to name a few.

So, your saying only rich people should play MMO's? I think if that was the case Most MMO companies would be out of business. Especially in the US.

Blackwidow

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

I see you took offense.

Not offended. Just teaching you some facts.

My overall point was clear, at least I had hoped. Posting problems on the forums specifically to bend the ear for developers, no matter what game you are in (that includes EvE, where devs are much more outspoken on their forums than anywhere else I know), is a exercise in futility.

History has already proven you wrong. I have already given you examples on other threads on this topic, like how we got true first person view because of thread posts.

You choose to ignore facts. Why?

There are too many posts.

By too many posters

With too many differing experiences.

And too many different opinions.

ROFLMAO!

If the forums bothers you this much, why come here?


Edit: I have a question for you.

You keep claiming that posting about the game will end in no results, or rarely no results.

Do you think all your posts telling players to stop complaining about the game will really get players to stop posting issues about the game?

Ser Lobo

Blackwidow wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

I see you took offense.

Not offended. Just teaching you some facts.

My overall point was clear, at least I had hoped. Posting problems on the forums specifically to bend the ear for developers, no matter what game you are in (that includes EvE, where devs are much more outspoken on their forums than anywhere else I know), is a exercise in futility.

History has already proven you wrong. I have already given you examples on other threads on this topic, like how we got true first person view because of thread posts.

You choose to ignore facts. Why?

There are too many posts.

By too many posters

With too many differing experiences.

And too many different opinions.

ROFLMAO!

If the forums bothers you this much, why come here?


Edit: I have a question for you.

You keep claiming that posting about the game will end in no results, or rarely no results.

Do you think all your posts telling players to stop complaining about the game will really get players to stop posting issues about the game?

We've disagreed more than once on these forums, but it's not usually my stick to tell others to stop doing anything. Doesn't do any good. No better than someone telling me what to do.

Saying that complaining is pointless if your end goal is to help the game? Even that's too general. Offering feedback and review is an entirely different matter than a post intended entirely to complain.

I will admit that beta forums are a very different environment than live forums, and as most beta testers will admit, it's almost a different game. But live forums, for the simple sake of practical application, are for the players to communicate with each other, not a tool for the developers. Even on ESO here, the simple task of writing patch notes is an afterthought to their prime focus, which is developing for the game.



I'm a forum warrior, myself. I love forums. I love making idea posts and discussing pros and cons of mechanics. I really do enjoy talking about the games I play (my poor, poor wife).

But the same way I'll talk up and down with someone about a football team I prefer, or even go on that teams website and visit their chat, I don't expect that team to change it's roster because I make 'great points'.

The difference, between forums being an appropriate channel of grievance or complement to developers, and being a community tool for players to duscuss amongst themselves, is important. Because if you approach it as the former, many will find themselves uniquely upset that there isn't any real communication back. If you approach it as the latter, you never expect the devs to respond to your great idea thread, because it's not really for THEM, it's for you.



And a last note: I love forums. Am addicted to them. Will often focus more on them than the game itself. But in the end, the acidic environment they create with negative reviews (because there aren't really a lot of players who show up to say 'great job, thanks!') and hateful feelings, can really ruin a game.

Most of us would never be aware our class is imbalanced, until we are faced with it directly through PvP or side-by-side comparison in PvE. But one trip to the forums can convince you that it's not even playable.

Soothy

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

There are too many posts.

By too many posters.

With too many differing experiences.

And too many different opinions.

I'd disagree with this, in part. I read the forum every day and whilst I do see a recycle of some topics, in most there is are same cycle of posters disagreeing or arguing with each other.

There will always be different experiences and opinions, but if you're a regular to this forum, it could be possible to draw some conclusions from topics posted.

(Was that ambiguous enough for you @Hilgara ?)

Blackwidow

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

But in the end, the acidic environment they create with negative reviews (because there aren't really a lot of players who show up to say 'great job, thanks!') and hateful feelings, can really ruin a game.

Do you think attacking others for posting can drive players away? Because that is what you were doing. Negative posts about other posters is pretty acidic.

How can people who come here to make the game better ruin the game?

Please explain this to me.

You claim our issues posted on the forums will not change the minds of the Devs, right?

So, how can we ruin the game?

Most of us would never be aware our class is imbalanced, until we are faced with it directly through PvP or side-by-side comparison in PvE. But one trip to the forums can convince you that it's not even playable.

So, better to hide the truth? Each person posts what they believe to be true. It is up to you to know what is right for you.

Personally, I don't blindly believe what other posters say. I guess you do, but that is on you.

Ser Lobo

Blackwidow wrote: »

Do you think attacking others for posting can drive players away?

How can people who come here to make the game better ruin the game?

You claim our issues posted on the forums will not change the minds of the Devs, right?

So, how can we ruin the game?

So, better to hide the truth?

I'm going to skip the insults, and get to the questions.

Yes, it can drive players away, if you attack them for posting. Posting negative or hateful comments in an attempt to gather 'support' against a company, I believe, do so much more. Or posting insults against 'fanbois' for defending the game.

I've had this debate in other posts, about other players ruining your game. It's an experience thing. Walk into a restaurant, buy a dinner, and then stand up and yell at and berate the owner, and the cook, for serving such a poor meal. Instead of leaving afterward, stick around for a few more hours and continue to insult the food and service. At no point do you need to attack the other customers, but you do create a hostile and negative environment, and many will simply leave to avoid that kind of atmosphere. At which point, the original customers complaints can be seen as intending to cause harm to the company.

I do claim forum posts will almost assuredly (almost, leaving leeway for rare exception) not change the game. Posting in appropriate channels are more likely to get changes made, like customer service, /feedback, /bug, etc. I believe any organized corporate development team would pay more attention to metrics and service reports than any long winded drivel by players such as myself.

As far as hiding from the truth, I believe it has more to do with shining light on things that are relatively small, and making larger issues out of them. People do this all the time, in their regular lives. Make big deals out of the smallest issues. It's only common on the forums. Like players telling me (since beta) that my Nightblade was broken and useless, while I was wearing medium armor with a bow doing just fine by just playing. Skills weren't working properly, for sure, but the class itself was still valid and capable.

Blackwidow

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Yes, it can drive players away, if you attack them for posting.

That was my point.

Posting negative or hateful comments in an attempt to gather 'support' against a company, I believe, do so much more.

See, when one is just trying to show what is wrong with the game, some call hateful comments.

You get that right?

Or posting insults against 'fanbois' for defending the game.

Attacking fanbois is also wrong.

However, most of the time you have one person saying there is a problem with the game and then you have fanbois attack the poster, instead of defending the game.

Sadly that is the pattern.

I've had this debate in other posts, about other players ruining your game. It's an experience thing. Walk into a restaurant, buy a dinner, and then stand up and yell at and berate the owner, and the cook, for serving such a poor meal. Instead of leaving afterward, stick around for a few more hours and continue to insult the food and service. At no point do you need to attack the other customers, but you do create a hostile and negative environment, and many will simply leave to avoid that kind of atmosphere. At which point, the original customers complaints can be seen as intending to cause harm to the company.

First, in your example, the angry person is shouting in the restaurant. So, that is a bad example right off the bat.

It has been said that most players do not even come to the forums. So, your shouting example would have to be in ESO, not on the forums.

Now, if a customer gets a bad meal and then writes a review about the restaurant, that is perfectly fair, yes?

That is the forums. We come here. We give our opinion of the game. It is our right. If it hurts the game, then ZOS needs to do a better job.

If ZOS did not want us to post here, they would shut it down.

As far as hiding from the truth, I believe it has more to do with shining light on things that are relatively small, and making larger issues out of them.

How big an issue is, is directly proportionate to how it affects you.

So, if another person can not log into the game becuase of a game error it is, how did you put it, "Shining light on things that are relatively small, and making larger issues out of them" (to you)

To the person who actually can not get into the game, it is huge to them. You are making their huge problem seem like a frivolous post. Which is so wrong on so many levels.

Let me bottom line this for you. If ZOS did not want to allow us to post bad things about the game, we would not be able to.

They obviously want us here. They override you.

Have a nice day.

Uisi

In my opinion a game do not deserve this level of concern, such seriousness, such drama. As the previous posters showed this is just a form of entertainment and need to be treated as such. Life will reserve a much unpleasant surprises than a unpolished game or a locked developer. I just say, if you don't have fun anymore move on to the next or other form of entertainment and stop fighting for a lost cause.

Audigy

A defense can only be applied where an attack has been committed.

So dear OP, if you want us to stop defending the game then how about you stop attacking it first?

To me ESO is a game and I play it for fun. Its not my RL, nor do I need to accomplish anything in a virtual reality to compensate for stuff that I would miss in RL. If some day ESO stops being fun, then I just stop playing it.

Why should I try to change ESO, just because its not my cup of tea? There is a lot wrong in this world and one thing is the constant "be like me" attitude of governments and people all around the world. Stop trying to save things that don't want to be saved - maybe people actually like things how they are?

Just accept and tolerate that someone or in our case a game is not your cup of tea and represents a different philosophy than your own. Move on and let it be.

There is a saying "clean your own house and not that of your neighbors" - think about it.

Mablung

Audigy wrote: »

A defense can only be applied where an attack has been committed.

So dear OP, if you want us to stop defending the game then how about you stop attacking it first?

To me ESO is a game and I play it for fun. Its not my RL, nor do I need to accomplish anything in a virtual reality to compensate for stuff that I would miss in RL. If some day ESO stops being fun, then I just stop playing it.

Why should I try to change ESO, just because its not my cup of tea? There is a lot wrong in this world and one thing is the constant "be like me" attitude of governments and people all around the world. Stop trying to save things that don't want to be saved - maybe people actually like things how they are?

Just accept and tolerate that someone or in our case a game is not your cup of tea and represents a different philosophy than your own. Move on and let it be.

There is a saying "clean your own house and not that of your neighbors" - think about it.

LOL....what?

Hilgara

Audigy wrote: »

A defense can only be applied where an attack has been committed.

So dear OP, if you want us to stop defending the game then how about you stop attacking it first?

To me ESO is a game and I play it for fun. Its not my RL, nor do I need to accomplish anything in a virtual reality to compensate for stuff that I would miss in RL. If some day ESO stops being fun, then I just stop playing it.

Why should I try to change ESO, just because its not my cup of tea? There is a lot wrong in this world and one thing is the constant "be like me" attitude of governments and people all around the world. Stop trying to save things that don't want to be saved - maybe people actually like things how they are?

Just accept and tolerate that someone or in our case a game is not your cup of tea and represents a different philosophy than your own. Move on and let it be.

There is a saying "clean your own house and not that of your neighbors" - think about it.

Go on admit it. You didn't read the OP did you?

Ojustaboo

I was looking forward to ESO for ages. I took the time to find a great well established (in other mmos) guild that also loved TES before the game went live and I was eagerly awaiting release.

However, after playing the final beta, it was pretty obvious if they went ahead with the scheduled release date there would be a huge amount of anger and people not subbing. What concerns me more is that the suits at Zenimax didn't see this. I suspect time and time again the devs warned them the likely outcome if they stuck to the date and I suspect the devs are just as annoyed as many of us are that as usual, the people upstairs seem blind.

I also suspect a few devs had the guts to say "I told you so and the same thing will happen to the console versions " to the suits, which is why the console version got put back.

Release came, my guild has about 55 members playing ESO it was a very annoying and frustrating experience. I don't care what other games were like at release, I only care about this one (only other mmo I played on release was Lotro).

We are in the EU so play on the EU server

I started my main, a few quests were bugged just like they were in beta, but for me the most frustrating thing was the bots in all the public dungeons.

Throughout all that my guild remained very very positive, often saying it feels like we're paying to beta test, but positive all the same, we all hoped the issues would soon get ironed out and all had great expectations for the games future.

A few weeks after release I ran an alt through the same areas and it was like playing a completely different game, no bots in the dungeons, all quests working. My main was now around the 30-40 level and while there was the odd bugged quest, nothing gamebreaking and I was extremely positive on this forum, and I thought Zenimax was getting there.

I and some of my guild also really loved PvP, I usually spend a couple of evenings a week there, other guildies are there every night and its their favourite aspect of the game.

And so it continued, jokes about the bugs, but very very positive overall.

Then the PvP players started commenting about the lag, and it got to be a standard joke about how much worse the lag would be after maintenance, which sadly says something.

Whenever Zenimax mentioned a patch that would help the lag in Cyrodiil, again PvP players joked that they had better find something else to do after the patch as it's bound to be unplayable.

Both of those comments were often said before the latest patch with the FPS problem.

And it was the start of mumerings that while initially made in jest, were still made due to peoples frustration.

Then more and more of us hit vet level.

One of the things that I was looking forward to was how Zenimax said ESO was not going in the same direction as other mmos where if you played class xyz then you needed build abc, in ESO this wouldn't be so important, we could play how we liked.

So I had my summoning sorc with flame staff and a bow as my 2nd weapon and I simply couldn't progress through vet levels at all and I was far from being the only one in my guild.

It was no longer fun. I wanted to take part in the vet dungeons but a group of 4 vet 1s stood zero chance of completing any.

In the end at the advice of a guild member trying to help out the other frustrated guildies, I respeced and followed a sorc build posted on reddit.

I now no longer summon (something I wanted to do before I ever got to try beta), I've had to ditch my bow and learn res instead.

Sure I'm still having fun, sure I can now survive a LOT better, but it's the same old "playing a sorc, you need this build"

One guild member has since unsubbed over vet content (and stopped playing before his sub expired), a few others arent happy, Most of the guild still haven't reached it yet but most are very close.

Then we had the latest patch, and I really noticed a change in tone in my guild, a change I started to notice a few weeks ago but has got much worse.

People who were very supportive of the game despite bugs are now starting to get very tired and sick of tne 2 steps forward 3 steps back patches.

People who mainly PvP are getting tired of all the lag and FPS problems and when it does work, are wondering how long it will be before Zenimax breaks it again.

Most are TES fans, most are very forgiving, knowing what mmo launches can be like, BUT most are also getting tired of the mess ESO is still in 3 months after going live and I can see in the tone of their posts that their patience is wearing thin.

Another guildie cancelled their sub and while they still have 3 months left, said things need to Improve dramatically to make them change their mind (a player who thought they would be here for years)

People paying to play, with high spec PCs don't want to have to play with their settings in order to try and get around the FPS problem, I'm not saying we won't alter them if it means we can now play, I'm simply ssying we shouldn't have to 3 months after release and it's another thing that makes many of us wonder about what's happening at Zenimax.

As for the cost, I always prefer to sub to whatever game I'm playing, it might not cost very much, but I'm still not subbing to more than one game at a time.

I don't care that my Burger King XL meal I had for lunch yesterday cost slightly more than a months sub, it's not about the amount, its about paying for fun and enjoyment and if I was paying £30 a month for non stop enjoyment, I would be happier than I would be paying just £1 a month for unplayable PvP etc.

I have hopes that ESO will be my long term mmo, I played Lotro for years and I hope to play this for years.

But I only have so much patience, I could sub to Sonys all access plan for the same amount and have access to numerous games for that one price including EQ Next when its finally released.

That's not a threat to leave, thats frustration talking. If in a couple of months time we're still having patches that screw up the world as much as this one did, and they dither about for days or weeks meaning I can't get my PvP fix, then sadly I suspect I will at that point say enough is enough.

What saddens me most is that while obviously in the first month many will try out a game and decide it isnt for then, Zenimax have lost a LOT of players they would probably have had for years all because of things that simply should never have been allowed to happen.

ESO could have been huge, I hope it still will be but sometimes it looks like some people at Zenimax almost want it to fail

Enkil

@Ojustaboo Great post... About sums up my feelings as well. I thought I would be playing for years also. I've unsubbed for now though... I'll come back when this Dev teams has mastered the basics like not breaking more than you fix with a patch.

Shaun98ca2

Ojustaboo wrote: »

However, after playing the final beta, it was pretty obvious if they went ahead with the scheduled release date there would be a huge amount of anger and people not subbing. What concerns me more is that the suits at Zenimax didn't see this. I suspect time and time again the devs warned them the likely outcome if they stuck to the date and I suspect the devs are just as annoyed as many of us are that as usual, the people upstairs seem blind.

Didn't read your whole post....meh doesn't matter.

The game being released too early argument....well apparently you don't understand the business of making games.

It takes money to make a game. Gotta get the money from SOMEWHERE. Most companies go into an "affordable debt" but debt it is never the less.

So when making a game you have a DEADLINE. Period no way around it cause everyday you sink into the game development the further you go into debt.

Video games go through this ALL the time, some even never see the light of day whether they had a good product or not simply due to funding.

The game HAD to be released to the Devs can start making money. You need money to support a business.

The Devs released the game. Myself and MANY others are happily playing the game. Are there issues SURE. But the game is playable and enjoyable.

If they decided to push Development further and further back the game MIGHT have never seen the light of day as Development costs MONEY.

Maybe one day people will understand this.

Ojustaboo

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

However, after playing the final beta, it was pretty obvious if they went ahead with the scheduled release date there would be a huge amount of anger and people not subbing. What concerns me more is that the suits at Zenimax didn't see this. I suspect time and time again the devs warned them the likely outcome if they stuck to the date and I suspect the devs are just as annoyed as many of us are that as usual, the people upstairs seem blind.

Didn't read your whole post....meh doesn't matter.

The game being released too early argument....well apparently you don't understand the business of making games.

It takes money to make a game. Gotta get the money from SOMEWHERE. Most companies go into an "affordable debt" but debt it is never the less.

So when making a game you have a DEADLINE. Period no way around it cause everyday you sink into the game development the further you go into debt.

Video games go through this ALL the time, some even never see the light of day whether they had a good product or not simply due to funding.

The game HAD to be released to the Devs can start making money. You need money to support a business.

The Devs released the game. Myself and MANY others are happily playing the game. Are there issues SURE. But the game is playable and enjoyable.

If they decided to push Development further and further back the game MIGHT have never seen the light of day as Development costs MONEY.

Maybe one day people will understand this.

Sorry I disagree. But At least I read your whole post before I commented, had you read mine, I think you might realise that most of my guild have been happily playing it too, just getting a little concerned now.

I just like you was also constantly telling others on here how myself and my entire guild are happily playing and how most people happy don't bother posting on forums, however, as I said in my above post, while only 2 have left or unsubbed, I have noticed a distinct change in the tone of those players comments in the past few weeks.

I know a fair amount about how the gaming industry works, sure it's an old game now, but one of my life long best friends (I was his best man) was one of the writers of Populous and have heard enough info over the years of how time and time and time again publishers etc completely wreck games due to not being willing to push a deadline back for a few more weeks.

I could tell you the true tale of a famous game being uncompletable due to serious bugs in the days before the internet was common, but still released against the devs wishes as a certain very well known publishing house said most people probably wont make it that far anyway and we'd rather get money coming in now than worry about the few that bother playing to the end. That's often the attitude of the people in suits.

It's a balance issue.

Yes they need to get money coming in, but releasing now, long term projection dismal, postpone for a few weeks initial reaction bad, long term projection very good. Other games have postponed launches from time to time and I wish more did it. It's almost become the norm to expect us to be paying beta testers whether on single player console games or mmo type games..

It's no good releasing something that's going to drive away a considerable amount of what could be long term customers just for getting money coming in a couple of months earlier if it means when they look back at their figures they see a slope going downhill fast. Better to wait that short while and see a much better return over the year.

Releasing a game with the main quest bugged with bugs that had been pointed out the previous year in beta, well if you think that's the right thing to do, we will have to choose to disagree

They stopped the console release even though they had given a date for that too, they had to as they realised the mistaker they had made with the PC release.

Lodestar

Evergnar wrote: »

ViciousWayz wrote: »

OP: Upgrade your computer. Learn 2 play. You must be new to MMOs.

The trifecta, LoL. I stopped reading after that.

Exactly, I never went much further either. It is clear he never read the post at all. One wonders then why bother responding to a post you never read? Have to be desperate to get you opinion over. Or have really terrible impulse control.

Anyhow, the post was well thought out. And interesting. In short, it was a make your own mind up on the game, which seems fair to me. Some of the defenders of the game, want you to have their opinion, play the game the way they want you to etc.

Heinzy

Decided to wait till this "potential" is attained to return.

This is my impressions of how the dev of this game went.

(Dev project mng) OK we need to work on an auction house system.

-six months later-

(Dev project mng) The bosses want us to move to the combat system. Does the AH work...

(Dev team) well yes but...

(Dev project mng) No time to worry about the "but" let's move on...

Everything seems to be well thought of but simply completed to the point of functionality.

I will wait patiently

Enkil

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

However, after playing the final beta, it was pretty obvious if they went ahead with the scheduled release date there would be a huge amount of anger and people not subbing. What concerns me more is that the suits at Zenimax didn't see this. I suspect time and time again the devs warned them the likely outcome if they stuck to the date and I suspect the devs are just as annoyed as many of us are that as usual, the people upstairs seem blind.

Didn't read your whole post....meh doesn't matter.

Really? Your zealotry is so intense that you will skip reading the content of the very post you are replying to in your rush to defend the dev team.. wow..

AlexDougherty

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

However, after playing the final beta, it was pretty obvious if they went ahead with the scheduled release date there would be a huge amount of anger and people not subbing. What concerns me more is that the suits at Zenimax didn't see this. I suspect time and time again the devs warned them the likely outcome if they stuck to the date and I suspect the devs are just as annoyed as many of us are that as usual, the people upstairs seem blind.

Didn't read your whole post....meh doesn't matter.

The game being released too early argument....well apparently you don't understand the business of making games.

It takes money to make a game. Gotta get the money from SOMEWHERE. Most companies go into an "affordable debt" but debt it is never the less.

So when making a game you have a DEADLINE. Period no way around it cause everyday you sink into the game development the further you go into debt.

Video games go through this ALL the time, some even never see the light of day whether they had a good product or not simply due to funding.

The game HAD to be released to the Devs can start making money. You need money to support a business.

The Devs released the game. Myself and MANY others are happily playing the game. Are there issues SURE. But the game is playable and enjoyable.

If they decided to push Development further and further back the game MIGHT have never seen the light of day as Development costs MONEY.

Maybe one day people will understand this.

This old chestnut. Yes, the business of making games is a business, very few would argue otherwise. But the problem is you can't release a faulty product onto the market and expect it to perform properly.

At launch this game was several months away from completetion, we are only just getting to the point were they could have started to think about launching it (a lot of the current problems would only been apparent after full capacity so couldn't have been predicted).

The problem is that the games industry has gotten used to launching far too early and patching it up, this wouldn't work with any other product. Would we buy a washing machine that stopped halfway through the cycle, or a car without second gear, or a word processing program that lacked punctuation (commas, full stops and the like).

The bad PR from launching this game has probably outweighed any profit from launching it. Now I don't know ZOS's finances, or if they had any contractual obligations to the launch window, so I won't comment on them. I simply don't know if they had a pressing reason to launch before the game was ready.

That said I am enjoying the game, and I am seeing progress, so I'm personally very happy with the game.

GreySix

Ojustaboo wrote: »

What saddens me most is that while obviously in the first month many will try out a game and decide it isnt for then, Zenimax have lost a LOT of players they would probably have had for years all because of things that simply should never have been allowed to happen.

And then the few who came to the forums early on were met with derisive comments like "L2P" or "If you don't like it, leave."

So they took their money elsewhere, and warned their friends and cohorts away from ESO.

Ironically the very rabid defenders of this game who don't want to see it go F2P are driving ESO in just that direction, by driving away disenchanted players with toxic commentary and preaching hard against any fixes to obviously-broken mechanics.

kewl

@Aeradon‌ Thanks for taking the time to craft a thoughtful post.

williamburr2001b14_ESO

Ojustaboo wrote: »

I know a fair amount about how the gaming industry works, sure it's an old game now, but one of my life long best friends (I was his best man) was one of the writers of Populous and have heard enough info over the years of how time and time and time again publishers etc completely wreck games due to not being willing to push a deadline back for a few more weeks.

Populous! Populous was a great game.

Blackwidow

kewl wrote: »

@Aeradon‌ Thanks for taking the time to craft a thoughtful post.

You spelled my name wrong, but you are welcome.

Aeradon

Blackwidow wrote: »

kewl wrote: »

@Aeradon‌ Thanks for taking the time to craft a thoughtful post.

You spelled my name wrong, but you are welcome.

LOL!!

Mablung

Bah wrong thread.

Lodestar

AlexDougherty wrote: »

This old chestnut. Yes, the business of making games is a business, very few would argue otherwise. But the problem is you can't release a faulty product onto the market and expect it to perform properly.

At launch this game was several months away from completetion, we are only just getting to the point were they could have started to think about launching it (a lot of the current problems would only been apparent after full capacity so couldn't have been predicted).

The problem is that the games industry has gotten used to launching far too early and patching it up, this wouldn't work with any other product. Would we buy a washing machine that stopped halfway through the cycle, or a car without second gear, or a word processing program that lacked punctuation (commas, full stops and the like).

The bad PR from launching this game has probably outweighed any profit from launching it. Now I don't know ZOS's finances, or if they had any contractual obligations to the launch window, so I won't comment on them. I simply don't know if they had a pressing reason to launch before the game was ready.

That said I am enjoying the game, and I am seeing progress, so I'm personally very happy with the game.

This is exactly my standpoint. And it is also compounded by the fact, MMO veterans are noticing this gap in quality, and starting to become more despondent and agitated by it. And many people will try this as their first MMO, given it's IP this is significant.

If I had an important day at work, and was running late. I may just shower, skip breakfast and make sure I had everything I needed ready to take with me, and have enough time to make the journey as I could.

What I would not do, is get up, have something to eat, forget everything I needed, yet somehow still be late, even though I never showered, or bothered to dress, and showed up to the meeting in yesterdays underwear, unshaven, with nothing I needed for the day. That is close to what ZOS has done, and said "oh traffic is always terrible" as an excuse. You would have been better off calling in sick, and make up for it next day, by an early night, and have everything ready the next day.

It is a strange way of doing things when you think about it. Launch is usually when you have your biggest playerbase. Yet that means, if your not in an acceptable state of release, you are going to see a large number of people, who will only ever experience that early buggy mess, and go away with that first impression. Surely you would limit that mess?