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Skill Change Request(s): Heavy Armor skill tree

GTech_1
GTech_1
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It is pretty likely that we have all read the hubbub about the viability, or rather the lack of viability, of the Heavy Armor skill tree.
So let's talk about some (hopefully) sensible changes.

My suggestions:
  • Resolve: Change to: "Reduces all incoming damage by 1% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped." This would improve to 2% and 3% per piece, respectively, for the second and third points in the skill. Max benefit: 21% reduction to all incoming damage.
  • Constitution: Roll-in the benefits of the Rapid Mending passive, below, increasing healing received.
  • Juggernaut: Replace this ability with:
    1. Retaliation: "When you block a single target attack, the attacker suffers damage equal to 0.5% of the damage blocked per piece of Heavy Armor equipped." This would improve to 1% per piece for the second point. Max benefit: 7% of blocked damage returned to the attacker.
  • Bracing: Leave as is, I see no issue here
  • Rapid Mending: The benefits of this ability have been rolled-in to the Constitution passive above. Replace with:
    1. Threatening Presence: "Block-slams and Shield slams taunt the target for 1 second per piece of Heavy Armor equipped." This would improve to 2 seconds per piece for the second point. Max benefit: 14 second taunt.
  • Immovable: Change this ability to require 5 pieces of Heavy Armor, in order to prevent "cherry-picking", and to bring this ability in-line with the weapon abilities. Weapon based abilities require the use of the weapon they are connected with. Armor actives should receive the same treatment. The other two Armor skill line active abilities should be changed to fit this as well.
  • SirknightMMB
    SirknightMMB
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    Resolve: Change to: "Reduces all incoming damage by 1% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped." This would improve to 2% and 3% per piece, respectively, for the second and third points in the skill. Max benefit: 21% reduction to all incoming damage.


    Thats a bit much i think maybe .5 per maxing at 10.5% as 21% + the 10% from pvp set and the armor base brings total DR way to high and would lead to everyone having only heavy
  • Jade_Knightblazerb14_ESO
    Overall good post, however the build in taunt is a bit much. Also you killed the DPs for heavy armor wearers xD. Yes I play that heavy clad knight and as a NB, I need that little weapon damage to counter siph strikes.
  • pinstripesc
    pinstripesc
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    Cool changes, at least makes heavy armour's passives interesting and related rather than not particularly useful.
  • GTech_1
    GTech_1
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    Resolve: Change to: [...] Max benefit: 21% reduction to all incoming damage.


    Thats a bit much i think maybe .5 per maxing at 10.5% as 21% + the 10% from pvp set and the armor base brings total DR way to high and would lead to everyone having only heavy

    That is a good point. I guess I would look towards also changing the PvP set bonus so that it only applied to damage caused by players. Maybe change the PvP set bonus entirely, since I would certainly want 3 skill points to trump a single set bonus.
    Overall good post, however the build in taunt is a bit much. Also you killed the DPs for heavy armor wearers xD. Yes I play that heavy clad knight and as a NB, I need that little weapon damage to counter siph strikes.

    Yeah, the taunt is a pretty stout ability to add. But it is the top of the tree, and there are only 2 taunts currently in the game, so I figured I would go for the "Tank benefit" aspect.
    As for the Heavy Armor DPS, I was figuring the Retaliation damage return would be a DPS increase. If it would not be, then the numbers could definitely go up. Maybe 1% / 2% per piece of Heavy, maxing out at 14%?
    I was intentionally starting out small so it wasn't "over juiced" by boss abilities and packs of adds. I was also going for the "retaliatory threat gain" angle to make tanks a bit more sticky.
    Cool changes, at least makes heavy armour's passives interesting and related rather than not particularly useful.

    Thanks man, I'm just trying to help get things in line, and give the Heavy Armor users (myself included) a few solid options and a few much needed buffs. :)
  • Horrum
    Horrum
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    I really hope to see some heavy armor buffs soon. Nice post!
  • Cogo
    Cogo
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    Even though I am using 5 heavy as tank, I am not sure making heavy armor only tank suited.

    All gear should be able to suits a multitude of mixes of builds.

    These changes would suit me, yes, and are needed, yes. BUT, they kinda make heavy tankish only. Shouldnty heavy have more uses then tank?
    Oghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
    Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
    Guildsite: The Nephilim

    "I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
    -Voltaire

    "My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"
  • Rev Rielle
    Rev Rielle
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    I agree, the OP's suggestions make it a little too narrow in its target focus. Especially the Threatening Presence.

    I personally think Heavy armour should be loosely focused on up-close-and-personal style of combat.
    If you can be anything, be kind.
  • GTech_1
    GTech_1
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    Horrum wrote: »
    I really hope to see some heavy armor buffs soon. Nice post!
    Thanks man, I appreciate the support :)
    Cogo wrote: »
    Even though I am using 5 heavy as tank, I am not sure making heavy armor only tank suited.

    All gear should be able to suits a multitude of mixes of builds.

    These changes would suit me, yes, and are needed, yes. BUT, they kinda make heavy tankish only. Shouldnty heavy have more uses then tank?

    I definitely agree that Armor skill lines of all types should give benefits to all builds.
    Survival absolutely benefits all builds, so that part of the Heavy tree comes rather easily, imo.

    I'm trying to follow what I see as the ESO design goals of the Armor skill trees.
    Specifically, each Armor skill line is based upon 1 of the 3 resource bars.
    Light Armor = Magicka bar
    Medium Armor = Stamina bar
    Heavy Armor = Health bar

    The major component of the Tank play style (surviving the incoming damage) is generally based on the health bar as well, so Heavy Armor and Tanking go more hand-in-hand.

    Currently, the Light Armor tree heavily supports Magicka based DPS, Healing, and Tanking styles.
    The Medium Armor tree has seen some love recently, and now does a better job of supporting Stamina based DPS and Tanking styles. (but still could use some work)
    The Heavy Armor tree has not seen many (if any) changes since release, and only does a marginal to mid-line job of supporting the Tank style in general, regardless of build style.
    Healers and DPS of both types would do well to avoid the Heavy Armor tree entirely, or only pick up 2 pieces or so.

    I'd like to include some DPS and Healer support mechanics in here, but there is a problem:
    Heavy Armor is focused on the Health bar, and I don't think it will be likely in the future for ZoS to support Health based DPS and Healing.
    Result: I decided to focus all of these Heavy Armor suggestions towards the Tank style.

    I think the biggest question we need to answer in this is:
    How can we make it more beneficial to Tank in Heavy Armor vs. Light, while still remaining true to the intended design, and without simply gutting the Light armor tree?

    Hopefully interesting side note:
    Health based DPS would have to come from sacrificing health to deal damage, or "reactive" damage based upon damage taken.
    Health based Healing could come from sacrificing Health and funneling it to an ally.
    If the Health regen were high enough on Heavy Armor, I guess I could see it, and it may be cool, but it just doesn't seem likely.
    It would require an entirely new subset of abilities to be created to use Health as a resource. ... but it is interesting :)
  • GTech_1
    GTech_1
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    Rev Rielle wrote: »
    I agree, the OP's suggestions make it a little too narrow in its target focus. Especially the Threatening Presence.

    I personally think Heavy armour should be loosely focused on up-close-and-personal style of combat.
    I agree that it is a bit narrowly focused. Though I would point out two things:
    The Medium Armor tree suffers from a similar focus on Stealth based Crit DPS, and the Light Armor tree has a similar focus on Spell based Crit DPS. I think these are intended, so I just pushed the Tank focus of the Heavy tree into view.

    Regarding DPS related buffs and non-build-specific changes, I did have a couple of ideas for the Heavy Armor tree that I left out.
    Here they are:
    Change one of the passives to reduce down the cost of Magicka AND Stamina based abilities by 0.5% / 1% / 1.5%. (50% of the benefit of each of other two trees)
    Change a second passive to increase both Magicka AND Stamina regen by 1% / 2%. (also 50% of the benefit of each of other two trees)

    This would allow the tree to support all builds, but felt out of place, a bit bland, and this would possibly make it the "uber tree of the month".
    I didn't want that, but this is an "Idea thread", so there ya have it. Thoughts?
  • pinstripesc
    pinstripesc
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    "Health based DPS would have to come from sacrificing health to deal damage, or "reactive" damage based upon damage taken.
    Health based Healing could come from sacrificing Health and funneling it to an ally.
    If the Health regen were high enough on Heavy Armor, I guess I could see it, and it may be cool, but it just doesn't seem likely.
    It would require an entirely new subset of abilities to be created to use Health as a resource. ... but it is interesting :)"

    That's also a very cool thought. Anything that offers different approaches to playing I think is going in the right direction. But yes, this would require a lot of reworking, I think.
  • zScars
    zScars
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    resolve-no
    retaliation-no
    immovable-maybe

    rest is fine
    Founder of Incognito Merchants. Join us- head to our thread for more info. forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/121613/official-trading-incognito-merchants#latest
  • GTech_1
    GTech_1
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    "Health based DPS would have to come from sacrificing health to deal damage, or "reactive" damage based upon damage taken.
    Health based Healing could come from sacrificing Health and funneling it to an ally.
    If the Health regen were high enough on Heavy Armor, I guess I could see it, and it may be cool, but it just doesn't seem likely.
    It would require an entirely new subset of abilities to be created to use Health as a resource. ... but it is interesting :)"

    That's also a very cool thought. Anything that offers different approaches to playing I think is going in the right direction. But yes, this would require a lot of reworking, I think.

    Hey, thanks man. It's always good to know my ideas are appreciated.
    When I had this idea, it automatically made me think: Necromancers! (and drain style, or dot-hot healing) ... but that is another thread ;)
  • GTech_1
    GTech_1
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    zScars wrote: »
    resolve-no
    retaliation-no
    immovable-maybe

    rest is fine

    Very short post, so it's a bit hard to tell, but are you saying: You think the Heavy Armor tree is mostly "good as-is" and only needs a few, rather minor, changes?
  • Cogo
    Cogo
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    I think its good as is. The problem wasnt heavy armor, it was cap, so you could wear robe and get same armor as heavy. Cap raced, DKs in robe with staff cries, problem solved.

    They did something with stamina, cause I have more stamina to use atm. Not much, but I can "feel" it.

    Also, tested the simply crit bonus for medium armor. 2% extra crit felt like 10%.
    I might just not understand how the damage is calculated, but my bow now is kicking butt.

    Balance wise, what I seen (And there is a lot I dont know), it seams alrightish.
    Sure, needs more tweaking but nothing hugely OP.

    I have a question tough. Should not my Ultimate go away after 5 mins if I do not use it? I am a dk. Using 2 DK ultimate and world magic ultimate. All 3 stays at full. Even if I stand still for 30 mins (and move a bit to not get logged out.

    I have a set that reduces the cost of ultimate by 15%. If most others looses their ultimate after 5 mins, maybe my set it "bugged" and keeps my ultimate?

    Small thing!
    Oghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
    Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
    Guildsite: The Nephilim

    "I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
    -Voltaire

    "My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"
  • GTech_1
    GTech_1
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    Cogo wrote: »
    I think its good as is. The problem wasnt heavy armor, it was cap, so you could wear robe and get same armor as heavy. Cap raced, DKs in robe with staff cries, problem solved.
    [snip]
    Balance wise, what I seen (And there is a lot I dont know), it seams alrightish.
    Sure, needs more tweaking but nothing hugely OP.[snip]
    Thanks for the feedback. The cap is another issue, and worth digging into, imo. But with this, I'm just trying to bring all of the Armor skill lines into a "near parity" state.

    Glad to hear about the Stamina and Bow improvements. I noticed some as well. The new Stamina cost reduction from the Medium Armor tree is most likely the change to thank for that one. (1.2.3 change to the Wind Walker passive)

    The issue with Ultimate should probably be posted in its own thread in the General Discussion forums. Others may have this issue as well, or it may have been added as a benefit and not properly documented. Throw up a post about it, sounds like a good find. :)

    Edit: Spellin' IZ Guuud!
    Edited by GTech_1 on July 1, 2014 2:31AM
  • jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO
    GTech_1 wrote: »
    It is pretty likely that we have all read the hubbub about the viability, or rather the lack of viability, of the Heavy Armor skill tree.
    So let's talk about some (hopefully) sensible changes.

    My suggestions:
    • Resolve: Change to: "Reduces all incoming damage by 1% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped." This would improve to 2% and 3% per piece, respectively, for the second and third points in the skill. Max benefit: 21% reduction to all incoming damage.
    • Constitution: Roll-in the benefits of the Rapid Mending passive, below, increasing healing received.
    • Juggernaut: Replace this ability with:
      1. Retaliation: "When you block a single target attack, the attacker suffers damage equal to 0.5% of the damage blocked per piece of Heavy Armor equipped." This would improve to 1% per piece for the second point. Max benefit: 7% of blocked damage returned to the attacker.
    • Bracing: Leave as is, I see no issue here
    • Rapid Mending: The benefits of this ability have been rolled-in to the Constitution passive above. Replace with:
      1. Threatening Presence: "Block-slams and Shield slams taunt the target for 1 second per piece of Heavy Armor equipped." This would improve to 2 seconds per piece for the second point. Max benefit: 14 second taunt.
    • Immovable: Change this ability to require 5 pieces of Heavy Armor, in order to prevent "cherry-picking", and to bring this ability in-line with the weapon abilities. Weapon based abilities require the use of the weapon they are connected with. Armor actives should receive the same treatment. The other two Armor skill line active abilities should be changed to fit this as well.

    I would hate for heavy armor to become "tank only". There should be a passive that negates some of the mitigation in exchange for raw damage.

    This could allow a heavy armor wearing dps character to work on slow, heavy but consistent dps rather than tanking. Medium armor could still be for the faster, heavy crit based dps.

    Really, a dude caged in a ton of steel is going to have more weight behind a blow than a dude in light chain, he just isn't going to be able swing as fast.
    I can has typing!
  • Ramasee
    Ramasee
    Those are some good ideas. Here are some of mine and what I agree with.

    Resolve being changed to 0.5% damage reduction per piece is very similar to what myself and others have been saying in game.

    Constitution agree with having Rapid Mending's benefit rolled in with it. Brings it in line with the change to medium armor's Wind Walker.

    Juggernaut could be changed to 7% power. Removing the melee and weapon components. That would make it comparable but still less than the other armors.

    Bracing is fine just as you said, and fits in with the scheme of heavy armor.

    Rapid Mending would be better replaced with you Retaliation idea and add that the damage returned generates more threat than equal damage(but does not taunt). And the damage would probably need to be capped by some factor so that you cannot return a significant amount of damage.

    I am also going to add in some ideas for the armor types to go along with that so that they fit the same mold.

    Medium armor given its recent changes is fine as is. (However, the uses of stamina and a lot of the stamina abilities are not. But that's another thread.)

    Evocation (for light armor) should be rolled in with Recovery and by effect reduced. It can be replaced with an effect similar to Magnus's Gift 3 piece set bonus to give them back the efficiency lost. Or perhaps something another kind soul comes up with.
  • CaptainSilverbrow
    CaptainSilverbrow
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    I like the cut of your jib, and most of your ideas, however, the following represents a flaw in reasoning here and amongst the several Heavy Armor idea threads that are thus because they conflict with the developers' Do what thou will" philosophy:
    GTech_1 wrote: »
    1. Threatening Presence: "Block-slams and Shield slams taunt the target for 1 second per piece of Heavy Armor equipped." This would improve to 2 seconds per piece for the second point. Max benefit: 14 second taunt.
    .

    See, most will agree that under the right circumstances, despite the concurrently sore state of the game, there ought to be the capability for each armor type to be engineered in such a manner to enable tanking if a player wishes to fulfill that role, and there are even spells for cloth users that enable this. Why, then, will the players that believe this is acceptable try to shoehorn Heavy Armor wearers into tanking roles, or apply passives that would possibly conflict with an actual Tank's effort in a group with HA DPS players? With the overarching design paradigm in mind, Heavy Armor should offer both optimal tanking conditions and unique, competitive DPS opportunities. Leave the tankiness to Sword'nBoard.

    Tl;dr: I agree with most of these ideas (most here do both in and out of mechsuit do, I imagine) they're creative; stop trying to force those among us not tanking at the moment into tanking situations, kthnx.
    Edited by CaptainSilverbrow on July 7, 2014 10:05PM
  • GTech_1
    GTech_1
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    I must say, this is turning into a very good discussion. Some excellent ideas and some good back and forth. I'm also happy to see that my ideas have been so well received.
    Ramasee wrote: »
    ... Here are some of mine ...
    Juggernaut could be changed to 7% power. Removing the melee and weapon components. That would make it comparable but still less than the other armors.
    Good idea. Maintain the DPS increase AND open it up to all styles. I like it.
    Rapid Mending would be better replaced with you Retaliation idea and add that the damage returned generates more threat than equal damage(but does not taunt). And the damage would probably need to be capped by some factor so that you cannot return a significant amount of damage.
    I could definitely see this instead of my Threatening Presence idea.
    In retrospect, the taunt just feels to potent, as well as too far towards the tank side. Swapping out for Retaliation would be a good option.
    I'm not sure Retaliation would need the artificial threat increase (also pushes a bit too hard towards the tank side), however, I could possibly see a small percentage of the incoming damage being kicked back in the form of Magicka and/or Stamina regain.
    As for a cap to the Retaliate damage, I would probably make it a flat damage value based on a percentage of the character's maximum health, just to limit the on the fly calculations going on.
    I am also going to add in some ideas for the armor types to go along with that so that they fit the same mold.

    Medium armor given its recent changes is fine as is. (However, the uses of stamina and a lot of the stamina abilities are not. But that's another thread.)

    Evocation (for light armor) should be rolled in with Recovery and by effect reduced. It can be replaced with an effect similar to Magnus's Gift 3 piece set bonus to give them back the efficiency lost. Or perhaps something another kind soul comes up with.
    The Evocation idea is a very good one. It would tone down Light Armor by an acceptable amount, without gutting it, and give a new passive to boot. I like it.
    Good stuff @Ramasee thanks for hoping in on this. :)
  • GTech_1
    GTech_1
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    I like the cut of your jib, and most of your ideas
    Hey, thanks man, I appreciate it :)
    ... Why, then, will the players that believe this is acceptable try to shoehorn Heavy Armor wearers into tanking roles, or apply passives that would possibly conflict with an actual Tank's effort in a group with HA DPS players? With the overarching design paradigm in mind, Heavy Armor should offer both optimal tanking conditions and unique, competitive DPS opportunities. Leave the tankiness to Sword'nBoard.
    I see your point, and I agree. Maintaining the non-tank side of Heavy Armor is now one of my priorities as well.
    Tl;dr: I agree with most of these ideas (most here do both in and out of mechsuit do, I imagine) they're creative
    Thanks again :)
    stop trying to force those among us not tanking at the moment into tanking situations, kthnx.
    Will do, and thanks for jumping into the discussion @CaptainSilverbrow‌
  • jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO
    I love you guys right now, keep this thread going :)
    I can has typing!
  • GTech_1
    GTech_1
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    I love you guys right now, keep this thread going :)
    Hey thanks for the support and for jumping into the discussion as well @jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO :)

    What do you think so far? Does this setup fit a bit better with what you were thinking in your comment above?
    Edited by GTech_1 on July 8, 2014 7:30PM
  • CaptainSilverbrow
    CaptainSilverbrow
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    GTech_1 wrote: »
    Will do, and thanks for jumping into the discussion @CaptainSilverbrow‌

    Very much obliged, I hope I didn't come off as churlish in closing. I see a ton of great ideas being proffered in this thread (I'm planning to make a few threads myself, one for this very issue), on this board and others, but I too oft see them attenuated by the inclusion of passives that render them moot in terms of DPS. I like the Retaliation idea (it fits smashingly!), but if anything, the current Juggernaut bonus shouldn't be occluded, it should be increased moderately; buffing Juggernaut from +7% Power to so much as +15% (or higher) couldn't yet render Heavy Armor in any way overpowered because the other variants are in no way lacking mitigation of their own, and it needs something of its own that enables DPS proficiency as LA and MA do uniquely. In regards to armor value itself (mitigation), if the concurrent system is to be left as-is, then other means of buffing survivability in a fashion that suits the legacy and concept of Heavy Armor wearers in a balanced manner should be approached differently, as you solved quite well in the OP, straight mitigation is a great way of reaching that ~65%/70% peak figure that's been tossed about, and without touching Light/Medium Armor's current armor value peaks whatsoever, leaving them with what mitigation they (and we, presently) have already achieved.

    Basically, Heavy Armor needs to bypass the rigid soft caps and Armor mitigation hard cap-- requiring more Armor for mitigation and Power for DPS entirely than should be necessary-- by stacking on more straight Power/damage potential (Damage%) and Damage Mitigation through passives. The only other elements that need be addressed are resource management and neat, nifty niche boons (like your Retaliation). If regeneration were better espoused to armor, then Medium and Light Armor would focus on exponential Stamina regen. (crit'/attack speed or penetration for DPS) and Magicka regen. (Spell Power and Spell Penetration/Crit') respectively, then what if Heavy Armor had much slower regen. of each (because the armor wouldn't carry it beyond Mag./Stam. enchants), but a ton of each resource? Arbitrary value, say 45% increased Magicka and Stamina, attach it to Bracing so it requires 5/5 in HA, rename the passive "Vitality" or "Constitution" (implying supreme fitness, healthiness). That sort of paradigm (balance the numbers) would open the door to an entirely unique style of play for both Tanks and HA DPS in an attractive way, and one others not into the HA playstyle might agree or better reconcile with; the focus is having a lot of a resource, and not how quickly it is regenerated.

    I just realized I'm not leaving much for my own thread, lol. But that's okay, I still plan to cover ideas for Templar, Two-Handed, Dual Wield, and maybe a review of Medium Armor.
    Edited by CaptainSilverbrow on July 8, 2014 3:14AM
  • Wifeaggro13
    Wifeaggro13
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    zScars wrote: »
    resolve-no
    retaliation-no
    immovable-maybe

    rest is fine

    You like it the way its designed? No need for armor you can tank naked? only reason people wear light is for magica regen and reduction,crit and resist.
    Do you actually play the game in VR content? its completely busted Heavy armor does absloutely nothing . there are no benefits to damage reduction , and a 3.5 % healing bonus is negligent.
  • pinstripesc
    pinstripesc
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    I don't have much to add, but a great discussion here. It's so nice to get away from the General Discussion forums and read something perceptive.
  • GTech_1
    GTech_1
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    I don't have much to add, but a great discussion here. It's so nice to get away from the General Discussion forums and read something perceptive.

    Hey thanks @pinstripesc‌ , I appreciate the support :)
  • mousekime111rwb17_ESO
    Idk, I like the idea of threatening presence and i think every agrees that the first passive need's that change, but this game is damage oriented, heavy armor REALLY needs some kind of damage passive added in that's better than juggernaut currently is.
  • CaptainSilverbrow
    CaptainSilverbrow
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    Idk, I like the idea of threatening presence

    I do too, but not to the Heavy Armor tree. I'd love to see it added to Sword and Shield, for certain.
  • Balorah
    Balorah
    Being an idiot, I just found this thread and this forum..... I am heavy armor, using dual wield and splitting armor between two forges. Level 45 and I have to say, I can deal with npc's at my level, up to 3 non daedra beasts, but cannot deal with a mob plus boss beyond about 5 levels below. I have no area denial weapons other than twirling. I need to find these trees being spoken of, or make some up, or somehow get a comparison going that isn't full of acronyms, which I have a serious problem decrypting. Thanks
    Balorah
  • pinstripesc
    pinstripesc
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    I'd really like to see an AoE in 1H/shield. It doesn't even have to be a taunt or 180 degrees, maybe just an arc, but one that pulls from stamina instead of magicka. As a NB I have 1 AoE, 2 if I want to morph Volcanic Rune the other way and have no AoECC whatsoever.

    Kinda offtopic, but it's hard to talk about heavy armour and not relate 1H+shield.
    Edited by pinstripesc on July 12, 2014 1:40AM
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