Money Back Request.

yodased

I can't think of any software in recent history that was systematically returned for refund, so I don't know about "happens daily".

I didn't pass judgement or say anything was "incorrect" by the way. Not understanding is not the same thing as not approving.

SBR_QuorTek

People bought a license to play the game for X amount of time... that is about it.. it is all up to the customer if he want to use his license or not... if having a problem, just cancel your subscription or remove your credit card.

Edit:
And if returning a game, which you can get refunded under one circumstance.. and that is if your key has not been used and the packing is still in mint condition, for digital purchasers same thing, if you used your software key.

You use the key to the piece of software, unable to refund it due to that is how it work mostly because when the key is used, it can't be sold to someone else.

For subscription.. you buy a timed license of let us say 90 days... then you bought the rights to use the product you acquired for 90 days... lets say the server messes up so you lose 6 days... then they will probably add 6 additional days or free days to your sub.

Grim13

Yesterday, during 5 hours of attempted play time I had:

-5 random drop outs to the character selection screen.
-4 relogs to reset my fps in Cyrodiil
-3 small rollbacks
-1 fatal memory error ctd

Patches are supposed to fix these things. Not continually make them worse.


(This should also show just how much I want this game to succeed! I'm exhibiting near Buddha-like levels of patience, here, just to try and play it!)

SBR_QuorTek

To be honest they should give people a couple of free play days as some kind of compensation, that would be the smart move, then fix whichever messed the stuff up meanwhile.

phtony06b14_ESO

I have 40ish days left & am losing steam. If they offered a pause on sub I would definitely take it & come back in 4-6 months when they had ironed out at least the technical issues & hopefully added better 50+ content. I know that's never been done so that means to most of you it's stupid to ask for it, but I'm not afraid to think outside of the box.

This game needs retooling; not quite on the scale FFXIV did, but if they can't get a quick grasp on the technical problems plaguing the game most people will leave with bitter feelings & never come back.

DeLindsay

yodased wrote: »

When did this become a thing?
Can someone explain this to me without involving my mother or my fanboi status?

Thanks.

Entitlement Nation, it's not unique to the USA but we're darn good at it. I spent the better part of my adult life managing Cinemas from little bitty 2 screens up to 85K sqft 24 screen megaplexes. Over the past decade or so I saw a massive increase in people "expecting" free everything. We could make the popcorn right in front of them, have them watch us fill the bag from the kettle itself, watch them walk away seemingly satisfied, have them come back 5 minutes later with almost the entire bag empty asking for a refund because the popcorn was stale.

I could make analogies about anything the same. It's a stupid trend that people seem to think just because they don't like something that the company who made it should automatically give them a new one, or their money back, or w/e. Sadly I don't see that trend ending anytime soon, only getting worse tbh.

Grim13

DeLindsay wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

When did this become a thing?
Can someone explain this to me without involving my mother or my fanboi status?

Thanks.

Entitlement Nation, it's not unique to the USA but we're darn good at it. I spent the better part of my adult life managing Cinemas from little bitty 2 screens up to 85K sqft 24 screen megaplexes. Over the past decade or so I saw a massive increase in people "expecting" free everything. We could make the popcorn right in front of them, have them watch us fill the bag from the kettle itself, watch them walk away seemingly satisfied, have them come back 5 minutes later with almost the entire bag empty asking for a refund because the popcorn was stale.

I could make analogies about anything the same. It's a stupid trend that people seem to think just because they don't like something that the company who made it should automatically give them a new one, or their money back, or w/e. Sadly I don't see that trend ending anytime soon, only getting worse tbh.

It's not a matter of wanting money back because they don't like ESO.

It's a matter of the game not functioning to a reasonable standard.

Sure, a lot of games come out with bugs these days, more and more it seems... but when the @#$%! did accepting that become the norm!? ..and expecting relatively bug free software become "entitlement!?

Are you so downtrodden and abused as a consumer that you're experiencing some form of Stockholm Syndrome!?

"...it's ok to be *** by this game publisher because, afterall, all publishers *** their customers these days"!

WHAT!?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with expecting some form of remuneration for a product that HAS NOT met a reasonable standard of functionality after 3 months of patching.

Grim13

You know, no wonder the release date functionality of games has dropped so significantly over the past several years... there are an army, lining up to defend the plummeting standards, and eager to hand over their money for the next consumer abuse!


[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Phinix1

"Aw $^%# I ran outa Marios! Damn machine better give my quarter back!" XD

ZOS_CatK

Hello everyone! We have moved this thread into the General Discussions section as it will find a more suitable home there.

Thank you.

Volkodav

The problems wouldnt be so bad to live with if it wsnt for the rather large chunk of money you plop down just to DL the thing months before you even can play it. I paid $59.00 just for the privilege to put this game into my PC.I didnt get the free 5 days,and now I pay every month.With WoW you DO NOT pay an initial fee just to DL it.You just pay for each months usage.And dont flame me for mentioning WoW,but since we're talking about MMOs it fits. Asking for the initial fee back isnt wrong if you feel you have been played a fool.And many people feel this way,even if others of you do not.

vanillexhope

I will premise this with a warning: I am not trying to troll or flame. I am genuinely curious - why do so many people think this is a broken game? I've heard about lag in PVP. I get that. From what little I've read, this does in fact seem to be an issue that they are working on. But what else is actually broken? I don't mean something that people don't like - but actually keeps you from being able to play?

Even if VR is like smashing your head against a wall (an example I've heard), you still made it to "the end." To me, this is like playing any regular game and making it to the end. Whether or not we like the ending doesn't mean they owe you money. I'd never ask for my money back because I couldn't beat the final boss in a game.

I've run into very few issues. Most of them were fixed with a /reload ui. Sometimes that doesn't fix it. If it's a quest, I move on to the rest of my quests assuming that the quest is bugged and I can come back to it later.

Are most of these issues that people are calling gamebreaking actually Zen's fault or is it possible that a lot of these issues are on the customer's hardware side? I didn't read the system requirements before I bought it and I assume many don't. But to those who DO have issues, have you checked them out? I upgrade old parts every year or so. This year I got a SSD and a new graphics card. I can run this game on full graphics, no lag. And I'm not talking about expensive upgrades. The card was less than $200 on Amazon and the SSD was around the same price on Amazon. I'm not even sure an SSD is necessary.

I feel really bad for the folks that are struggling to log in, have lag, keep getting logged out, get crashes and errors. But I think a lot of people are playing the game with no issues, like myself. If it was me, (and I mean no rudeness in this) I would first check my end. If I've done everything I can possibly do on my end, then yes, it's time to contact customer service.

DeLindsay

WhiskeyRiver.AZub17_ESO wrote: »

The problems wouldnt be so bad to live with if it wsnt for the rather large chunk of money you plop down just to DL the thing months before you even can play it. I paid $59.00 just for the privilege to put this game into my PC.I didnt get the free 5 days,and now I pay every month.With WoW you DO NOT pay an initial fee just to DL it.You just pay for each months usage.And dont flame me for mentioning WoW,but since we're talking about MMOs it fits. Asking for the initial fee back isnt wrong if you feel you have been played a fool.And many people feel this way,even if others of you do not.

You cannot PLAY WoW before paying for it except that lol F2P to level 20 with so many restrictions you might as well go play Warcraft instead. There is NEVER any promise or guarantee that anyone who spends money on a thing will enjoy said thing. So what that you can DL WoW before buying it and subbing to it to actually play, that's not a valid comparison. There is NO WAY you would be able to properly determine that you would like WoW with it's awful F2P option before paying for it, then deciding you want your money back.

Also WoW didn't have any form of F2P option for something like the first 6 years, nor did it offer digital DL until iirc WotlK. Once again invalidating your main argument.

vanillexhope

WhiskeyRiver.AZub17_ESO wrote: »

With WoW you DO NOT pay an initial fee just to DL it.You just pay for each months usage.

I've played WoW since opening day. Unless they've changed something recently, most players bought the original game for around $60 I believe. There are five expansions that (originally) cost around $60 a piece as well if I'm not mistaken, and I might be off on those. Perhaps now you can buy these games cheaper, but millions of people bought the games separate from the subscription.

Rainsage

yodased wrote: »

When did this become a thing? I've never in my life thought to request my money back from any sort of entertainment purchase.

Its like the people that go to a movie and demand their money back because they didn't like the movie.

I'm not trying to flame or call out anyone, I'm genuinely curious as to when this became the excepted response to not liking an entertainment purchase.

When I was growing up, if I bought a game from Toys-R-Us for my Atari or NES and didn't like it, welp you are screwed thanks for your cash.

I'm not saying its not feasible, nor expected; to be taken care of as a consumer if you feel you were cheated or mislead somehow, but blatantly asking for a refund of an entertainment purchase because you are unhappy is foreign to me.

Can someone explain this to me without involving my mother or my fanboi status?

Thanks.

I'm still a new ESO player as I'm on my first month of play, but I've also been playing video games since Atari and NES, and I started on MMOs during the text-based MUD days. Here are my thoughts on this issue:

When we purchased a game for Atari or NES, it worked. The risk we took was of liking or not liking the game. The risk was not on whether the game worked. If Donkey Kong or Zelda did not work out of the box, the product was considered broken, and an exchange for a Donkey Kong or a Zelda that worked, or a return of the money, was reasonable and expected.

Increasingly, the MMO industry has been releasing broken games with the understanding that the broken game will be patched and fixed in time. They earn money from the up-front purchase price of the game at the risk of alienating and frustrating their player-base with a broken product. Of course they want long-term subscribers, but they seem to treat long-term subscribers as secondary to getting that up-front software purchase.

Is the MMO industry taking advantage of the software license agreement and the game key system by claiming that no one has a right to a refund for a broken game? Is it equitable that the player shoulder the financial burden of the development of an MMO with no guarantee that the game they purchased will work out of the box or in the future? This is a question for the individual to decide.

Singular

yodased wrote: »

When did this become a thing? I've never in my life thought to request my money back from any sort of entertainment purchase.

Its like the people that go to a movie and demand their money back because they didn't like the movie.

I'm not trying to flame or call out anyone, I'm genuinely curious as to when this became the excepted response to not liking an entertainment purchase.

When I was growing up, if I bought a game from Toys-R-Us for my Atari or NES and didn't like it, welp you are screwed thanks for your cash.

I'm not saying its not feasible, nor expected; to be taken care of as a consumer if you feel you were cheated or mislead somehow, but blatantly asking for a refund of an entertainment purchase because you are unhappy is foreign to me.

Can someone explain this to me without involving my mother or my fanboi status?

Thanks.

I took my family - father, mother, brothers, girlfriend - to a contemporary music showing. It was so very, very awful. Easily the worst performance I've ever seen or ever will see. Musicians in a circle coughing, tuning, randomly playing out of tune, clearing their throats - clearly unscripted, clearing not music, not musical instruments being played in a non-traditional fashion, just bsing. They locked us in - it was that terrible, they didn't want you to leave.

My father was incensed and demanded his money back (even though it was I who paid). We couldn't get it back - that's the reaction these miserable basta--ds wanted.

Singular

yodased wrote: »

When did this become a thing? I've never in my life thought to request my money back from any sort of entertainment purchase.

Its like the people that go to a movie and demand their money back because they didn't like the movie.

I'm not trying to flame or call out anyone, I'm genuinely curious as to when this became the excepted response to not liking an entertainment purchase.

When I was growing up, if I bought a game from Toys-R-Us for my Atari or NES and didn't like it, welp you are screwed thanks for your cash.

I'm not saying its not feasible, nor expected; to be taken care of as a consumer if you feel you were cheated or mislead somehow, but blatantly asking for a refund of an entertainment purchase because you are unhappy is foreign to me.

Can someone explain this to me without involving my mother or my fanboi status?

Thanks.

OP: you can read the BBB's website about various games, and you can see that customers get refunds for games they're incredibly unhappy with. You have to go to the BBB in whatever municipality the game headquarters is in to find those claims, though.

DeLindsay

Rainsage wrote: »

When we purchased a game for Atari or NES, it worked. The risk we took was of liking or not liking the game. The risk was not on whether the game worked. If Donkey Kong or Zelda did not work out of the box, the product was considered broken, and an exchange for a Donkey Kong or a Zelda that worked, or a return of the money, was reasonable and expected.

Increasingly, the MMO industry has been releasing broken games with the understanding that the broken game will be patched and fixed in time. They earn money from the up-front purchase price of the game at the risk of alienating and frustrating their player-base with a broken product. Of course they want long-term subscribers, but they seem to treat long-term subscribers as secondary to getting that up-front software purchase.

Is the MMO industry taking advantage of the software license agreement and the game key system by claiming that no one has a right to a refund for a broken game? Is it equitable that the player shoulder the financial burden of the development of an MMO with no guarantee that the game they purchased will work out of the box or in the future? This is a question for the individual to decide.

You mean like Automobiles that are sent off the factory line by the tens of thousands with faulty ignition wiring? Or how about Playstations and XBox's that have something like a 5-8% chance to be DOA when they first launch. Maybe you're talking about the single player games that launch for PC and have 5-10 patches in the first few months due to problems they had, at $60/ea. I know, you are referring to all those iPods/iPhones and every other piece of electronics that last 91 days (just out of warranty) and have some breakdown that they make you pay to replace, at least in part.

Simple truth of it is, NOTHING is made like it used to be. You used to be able to purchase a Kenmore Washing machine that lasted 30 years with barely a hiccup. Now you're lucky if you can buy a Washer that makes it more than 2 years or so without something serious going wrong. Everything is becoming more and more complicated which means the volume of potential problems is skyrocketing. The sad part is people want to blame this or that and they literally have zero concept for just how hard it is to build a thing from scratch. And no, MMO's aren't unique or any different than any other product in that most have issues when they debut.

Also, you do understand an MMO could be in Beta testing for 10 years and you can literally NEVER test for every possible problem, yes? It's impossible to catch everything and account for all possible scenarios. If you actually think any MMO could launch with zero problems then you are very sadly mistaken.

SaibotLiu

If someone bought ESO and was genuinely shocked with what they got, they have only themselves to blame. There were weekend long beta tests. Beta tests which offered a window to the issues that would carry over to release. And I can't even fathom why anyone would say ESO is not a functioning product. Not to your preference, obviously, but it's a video game and it plays like a video game. You have to account for industry standards when judging a product, and a little common sense goes a long way too. By all rights, ESO is a functioning game.

I have my issues with the game, but I would never ask for a refund. Then again Im not some crazy basement dwelling bit torrent pirate like a lot of PC gamers either. I gladly and respectfully pay my own way when it comes to entertainment.

And I genuinely believe that anyone who would lower themselves and ask for a refund for a product like ESO is a bonafide nutter. Nobody say's you need to like the game, but maybe if you applied a little more of the standards that you put on everyone and everything else and applied them to yourself as a consumer, you may have made a better personal decision and wouldn't be in that position to start with.

JungleBoot

The ongoing debate here seems to center around the definitions of what is an acceptable end-product and consumer expectation. The end-product is what you purchase no matter what industry you buy from.

Software seems to be one of the few industries where holding the company to the fire is frowned upon. The industry gets a pass on more things than any other industry. Why? It's a product. The unfortunate part is you really don't get to see it until it has been installed. Thus, many companies introduce demo software. Demo software is a good tool. It sparks interest and gives those who need it a first look. It's a win.

Games are software. Unlike productivity software, it is sold primarily to individual consumers and targeted at the youngest. This is why a lot of money is thrown into trailer production. When you saw the first ESO trailer, did you momentarily think -- Wow, this should be a movie? In some corner of your mind, did you not secretly desire to see a full-fledged film? I did. That trailer was awesome. Now, how many of you that have played in Cyrodill have shot a rope ladder across to a tower and started to run across it before it was secured? I'm curious. If you can't do that, then you were lied to on some level. You were sold on what you saw -- not what was in the game.

Next they provide you with in-game footage and talk about all this freedom you are going to have and more. They talk about how this isn't going to be like other MMOs. You know, they are giving you their sales pitch. Again, we all go cool. We are primed. Our wallets are out and just can't wait to purchase. We are expecting a great experience.

Meanwhile, off in some dark corner the beta-testers are all still clamoring for fixes prior to launch. They are constantly reminding Zenimax/Bethesda of things that should be included or fixed before going live.

I ask you -- what happened?

Zenimax/Bethesda do what they are great at -- releasing products. They excel at releasing unfinished products. Skyrim -- a great game until you start taking a closer look at it. It's still broken and has three DLCs. But, I played it. I enjoyed it. I also feel cheated. I spent $60 and basically bought a faulty product. But, because it is a digital product and I installed it, I can't ask for a refund. It doesn't matter that the animation for dragons flying is extremely sub-par or that the dragons dip into the terrain. It doesn't matter that the eyes of the character models are wonky. It doesn't matter that -- what his name, Lutresh?? -- appeared as multiple copies outside the Whiterun stable. It doesn't matter. What is expected is for me to lower my expectation when I can look at other titles from other companies and know with -- bugs and all -- they cared more about what they released.

They released Elder Scrolls Online with all of its problems under the expected realization gamers accept games are released faulty and a patch is on the way. So, they went live. MMOs are a constant work in-progress. That is accepted. But, your initial release should be as fault free as possible. Spelling errors should have been caught. Quest text that doesn't match the dialog should have been caught. They should have known about the respawning jute. Why? Because all of it went through Quality Assurance. At least, I hope so.

Personally, I never experience any "catastrophic" errors. I did get the Login Error 301 for a bit and received compensation to their credit. But, I can't say that I have enjoyed the game as intended. Why? Because they are constantly tweaking and nerfing and changing core aspects of the game. So, it's still in-development.

This is why people are asking for their money back. The game is sill actively being developed with user input. Some would say that is great. In many ways, it is. But, I didn't pay for an "in-development" title. I paid for a completed work with the understanding that more content was to come.

People use movies as an example. You don't pay to sit and watch the dailies with the director and actors. You pay for the completed product -- flaws an all.

Ohioastro

Rainsage wrote: »

I'm still a new ESO player as I'm on my first month of play, but I've also been playing video games since Atari and NES, and I started on MMOs during the text-based MUD days. Here are my thoughts on this issue:

When we purchased a game for Atari or NES, it worked. The risk we took was of liking or not liking the game. The risk was not on whether the game worked. If Donkey Kong or Zelda did not work out of the box, the product was considered broken, and an exchange for a Donkey Kong or a Zelda that worked, or a return of the money, was reasonable and expected.

Increasingly, the MMO industry has been releasing broken games with the understanding that the broken game will be patched and fixed in time. They earn money from the up-front purchase price of the game at the risk of alienating and frustrating their player-base with a broken product. Of course they want long-term subscribers, but they seem to treat long-term subscribers as secondary to getting that up-front software purchase.

Is the MMO industry taking advantage of the software license agreement and the game key system by claiming that no one has a right to a refund for a broken game? Is it equitable that the player shoulder the financial burden of the development of an MMO with no guarantee that the game they purchased will work out of the box or in the future? This is a question for the individual to decide.

What bothers me the most is the utterly fantastic and unrealistic expectations for a MMO. This is software designed to be used by millions of people simultaneously, using an incredible variety of hardware configurations and internet server providers. There is far, far, far less control in such a game than there is in a single player cartridge game. In fact, it is utterly inevitable that there will be glitches in such games - as you cannot anticipate every single combination of things that everyone can do. (e.g. what happens when four people click on the same thing at the same time and one of them gets disconnected?) And yet I see a lot of players with no understanding of software, at all, assuming that it's "shoddy standards" or whatever when something like this breaks - when it is utterly inevitable. And they complain about game after game, not realizing that it's their utterly unrealistic expectations that are the problem.

If these things bother you, play single player games (where the software problem is a lot easier) or wait a few months for the MMO aspects to get tested in the only useful way they can - with millions of people playing them.

And there is a difference between "can't log in" and "doesn't work perfectly"; the former is grounds for a refund. The latter (or, even better, "I thought it was a different game than it was" or "I got bored") is not.

JungleBoot

And the above is why consoles are better than PCs and Macs. Consoles have a standard specification a developer can work with -- even if it is behind. That's why something like The Last of Us was so awesome on the aging PS3.

yodased

An honest thanks to everyone involved in this thread. It could have gone south fast but we are having a great discussion.

If the whole forum was like this it would be nice

Cogo

JungleBoot wrote: »

And the above is why consoles are better than PCs and Macs. Consoles have a standard specification a developer can work with -- even if it is behind. That's why something like The Last of Us was so awesome on the aging PS3.

HOW is consoles better for MMOs then PCs or macs?

Yes, you do not have the problem with low end systems who cant run the client properly. But as long as your rig is somewhat ok....the problems are mostly on the MMOs side. Just because of the complex structure MMOs have. (read above post)

Do consoles upgrade graphic drivers? Can you "patch" a console game?
I do not know. Thats why I ask.

There is a reason why 10 years old MMOs keep patching. Its a never ending job.

I would state the opposite. A PC, you can do a lot more with, easier with text etc, more applications available and upgrading a PC can be done in a lot more ways then a console.

The power of a console, is you have no hassle and it works right away.

But, don't confuse this with MMOs problems. A console, PC and Mac is the same thing. A client, where the local software is.

Jimm_ay

I do it all the time with Cable. When my internet is out for the good part of the day I call and ask for a credit for that day. They do it. But that is a billed service. The game is a pre-pay. You pay ahead of time to play that month.

Riptide

I think some folks remember the Atari through MUD years a little differently than I do. I mean, Missile Command was cool, as was a whole bunch of games....but boot it up on an EMU. Games like that, and later, Zork and such were small time production. Muy simplistico innards, no voice acting to speak of, and on and on.

And MUDs? Maybe the one you played on was always stable, but I was the implementor of mine for a stretch. I remember making the text of attack adverbs show up in color and the whole place was a mess for weeks over that crud. Now true, it was free. But all the ones I played had their issues, same as the MMOs now do.

Remember the CORP POR! CORP POR! days of UO? You don't remember housing exploits, crashes, etc? Good gracious, boat planks alone.

They have ALL been funky, or buggy, or both. The difference really is, in my opinion, that back then, during the BBS/MUD era? Most of us were geeks for real. We tinkered with the hardware for fun, we delighted in going through hell for those moments when it all WORKED. That element of borderline masochism is gone now, from us included.

Static lines and prong memory have been replaced with plug and play snap it in and roll. Weekend long install processes that were arcane arts are now click click done. And we want everything to work, right now, correctly and without fail.

I'm not even saying it is necessarily wrong, but the culture has changed heaps in the last 30 years in gaming, by a very long way.

SystemiK

At the end of the day, I doubt many would argue that refunds from game developers to their customers (for any reason) are EXTREMELY rare. Even in the case of a game being unable to run AT ALL for a particular customer, a refund almost never happens. I doubt there are any reliable statistics for game refunds but I'd be willing to bet that in terms of overall sales, refunds would represent less than a hundredth of a percent.

So why is it that people spend so much time and effort demanding them, or even debating them? Are so many people really that naive? It's NOT going to happen. People really need to learn to pick their battles.

If nothing else (at least to me), it's a good indicator of age and intelligence when you see yet another thread pop up with a new demand for a refund or well... pretty much any other "I demand..." for that matter) you kinda know who/what you are dealing with right off the bat...

JungleBoot

HOW is consoles better for MMOs then PCs or macs?

You do realize that consoles and PCs are - for all intents and purposes - the same thing?? For that matter, your phone is the same thing as a console. If you don't understand that, please take a moment and look around you at the number of computing devices you have. The major differences lie in how input is received and functionality.

You call your i-phone, HTC, or Galaxy device a phone. You're wrong. It is a device capable of making cellular phone calls. A tablet can make a phone call given the right software and hardware. A car can make a phone call. Do you call your car a phone? We live in a world of devices. A PC is more correctly called a personal computing device. Newer televisions are not televisions in the traditional sense. They are displays. Phones and televisions are a thing of the past. Those are just hold-over ideas that will phase out over time as the proper terms get adopted like communicator and display.

To answer your question, a console is better for any game development project for its standards and specifications. Even if the drive is updated or graphics is updated, it is still a smaller select set of hardware. You should also recognize that consoles can attach keyboards, mice and other external devices as well.

PC gamers hate the idea of giving up their keyboard and mouse. But, you have no problem attaching an external interface to allow you to play certain games with Flight Control sticks, Racing Wheels, or even a game controller. I get that you want a skill bar of 12 slots stacked 3 high in a row. I get that you want to be able to assign macro commands to all of the function keys and ALT, CTRL, and Shift key combinations. I do understand. I also understand you have this super fast hard drive and optical drive. That you have this fancy power house graphics card and the latest and greatest processor. And by God, you spent the money on it. Now, you want to use it. Take it for a spin and see all the wonderful things it can do. I get it. Tell me how much you spent on your computer again?? $1500 - $2000?? More?? And your computer will be behind the newest and snazzy devices when?? PC owners are always updating hardware to get a minimal advantage over others. Some will go so far as to purchase higher internet speeds than they truly need just so they can own the competition. More power to you. It's your money. Spend it how you like.

I'll take my console that cost $499 plus tax and still be amazed at how far technology has advanced. The graphics I'm seeing on my PS4 are new to me. Maybe, you've been seeing it for more than a year. I don't care. I'm happy. I'll also be happy when the PS4 has reached the end of its life cycle and that last game will look far better than anything that came out during initial release. Why?? Because, like my mother before me who is completely amazed at the plethora of crap available via satellite and cable -- now, the internet; when she started out listening to programs on the radio, i can appreciate the advancements made in processing power, graphics capability, audio engineering , and display devices. I can appreciate it all.

There is one major difference I would like to point out to you. I have played games on a PC way before I played games on a console. But, I got over it pretty quick. Because when something is wrong with a game, the developer has no excuse. Every spec the developer needs is sitting in front of them in a specification document. They can't turn it around and blame it on my PC because it doesn't meet their requirements or uses hardware they didn't expect anyone to have.

R1ckyDaMan

As someone who has returned numerous music cd's to the retailer in past because the music was well... rubbish.. lol

Archie

The other night I logged on to resume the quest "Defend the Hall" only to work upon it for nearly an hour before I discovered it was actually bugged and incompletable. I lost my interest to check another quest and went to Cyrodiil. It didn't take long before I was one-shot for about 5 times by the silver thingie. Naturally, I wanted to join a raid because I thought I would survive longer and revived if fallen at least. And bam, my fps fell under 10 when zerging.

At that moment, "this" crossed my mind... In response to the OP, yes it happens.