What happened to the Addon community?

Fuzzylumpkins

Mablung wrote: »

tuckerpb2 wrote: »

FrauPerchta wrote: »

Most addon writers stop updating their addon when they leave a game so they can make addons for what ever game they move to.

yep they are all going to wildstar.

If a large portion of the modding community leaves this game.....

Modders do not simply write addons for games because they enjoy the game. There is money in it. Advertisers and hubs like Curse are where it comes from. I cannot speak for all of the writers but I still update and rewrite a few for WoW and rift still even though they are games I do not play and have never played Rift. Wildstar will simply be the newest title out currently that is fresh pasture for the writers. And ESO proved to be more of a pain to write for with much less benefit than a triple A title would normally have afforded.

I have never played EvE, SW:tor or wildstar but have helped write gathering/quest mods for all 3. All you need are files to dive.


There has never been a more pain in the A** game to write for that has gone out of it's way to break your mods within months of release.

AlexDougherty

SystemiK wrote: »

You should spend an hour or two over in the Addons / UI subforum. There are some EXTREMELY unhappy addon developers over there...I'd say the mood is just shy of riot.

I imagine there are unhappy addon developers there, they spend weeks/months getting the addons to work, then an UNDOCUMENTED api change renders them moot.

Changes happen all the time, and they need to redo them all the time, but no warning, and no documentation are an insult to them.

So I can imagine exactly how furious they are.

EQBallzz

Cogo wrote: »

WoW have the exact same concept. And WoW really do require addons to be playable. ESO do not.

I really do not understand WHY Zenimax would have anything at all to do with how addons works or not? They are nice enough to allow them. "Alien" software into their application.

If zenimax made the addons, sure, but that would make 10 addons instead of...what 1000?

The whole idea is to give players a way to customize the game without changing any game mechanics such at infinite gold or whatever.
What type of addon is up to everyone, where the sky is the limit.

Anyone with the slightest experience from business or software would understand this without even played any MMO.

I do understand difference in opinions, but I fail to understand why Zenimax would support a software they do not create, control, manage, develop or even have a clue what players wants.

Do you complain at the football stadium if the soda machine isn't working?

I try to avoid saying people are wrong when they have an opinion but when they make statements of fact that are blatantly false I have to correct you. I'm sorry but you are just wrong.

You may not feel the need to use addons and we are all real proud of you. The fact that you (or others) are oblivious to (or don't care about) standard MMO features doesn't mean they don't exist. There are many lacking, broken or missing features in this game that addons are clearly propping up to make the game bearable for some people. Here are just a few of the issues as I see them (some have addons to remedy them and others don't)..

Guild tools:
- no way to send a mass mail to your guild
- severely lacking rank/permission options for the guild and the guild bank
- lacking options for guild bank that force you into an "all or nothing" type of access for the bank (this is laughably bad design)
- no options for guild notifications like MOTD, people leveling or logging in/out or leaving the guild
- lacking slash commands
- seriously lacking member roster options for sorting/filtering/notes
- guild bank has no auto stacking at all (absolutely required to have a stacking addon to maintain sanity..especially if you are a guild leader)

Basic Quality of Life:
- ability to save and export keybinding configuration to alts
- some way to view recipe/research information outside of the crafting window
- some way to see the stats of equipped items when crafting
- some way to see what item was sold in a guild store sale instead of just getting gold and having no clue what sold
- numerous chat window options (fully resizing window, timestamps etc..)
- being able to actually access the guild bank without getting "Retrieving items..." 60% of the time
- robust guild store options (somewhat improved filters in last patch but still woefully lacking)

I'm sure there are a number of others. Everything I listed above changes nothing about your UI or the basic look/feel of the game but has everything to do with basic, fundamental MMO features that many feel are not really optional. Notice I didn't even list anything like health bar options or options to view more buff/stat info. I wouldn't want to play without some of those, either but for the sake of argument I didn't even list those because *some* might consider those optional/cosmetic in nature or contrary to ESO's "vision" of the game.

SystemiK

Cogo wrote: »

Do you complain at the football stadium if the soda machine isn't working?

Lol, I don't need to. With the armies of complainers which are EVERYWHERE these days, before I can even get to the stadium the soda machine vendor will have already been told that:

- The soda machine is too far from the seating.
- does not have a large enough selection.
- does not have the right selection.
- should also vend food items.
- is the wrong color.
- is too expensive.
- must be called a beverage dispenser.
- needs more warning labels
- has a facebook page with over 3000 people demanding immediate repairs and free soda for a month.

Zabalah

Mortosk wrote: »

Luminary trade history doesn't work anymore. You must not sell anything if you didn't notice. My sales tab is broken.

This is true and accurate. Of all the addons that I use, this is the one and only addon that I miss. The feature of this addon should be a GAME FEATURE and not left to addon authors... it is that much needed.

bg22

Bc the majority of players that possess the knowledge of how to create an addon, also possess the knowledge of how broken this game is.

They've probably became frustrated that ZOS can't even fix the mobile site after 3 months, and that they could've fixed it while eating a sandwich and watching TV, so they've given up.

SkOODaT

API changes breaking addons and no API changelogs or advance notice on what Thier doing ... And bugs potientlly but we can't tell because they don't give information out lol

gladen5rwb17_ESO

The OP posts a question. Where have all the mod developers gone. Instead of answering this question there are a ton of "I never needed Add-on's anyway" replies.

Never fails to amuse me. The fact that some mod developers have left is not the issue but that they have left when the game is still in it's infancy, months old. It is not as if this game has been on the market for two, three, four years and mod developers are thinking of changing games. A few months have gone by and the community posts here are often about the massive problems associated with it or posting reasons for leaving. The constant 'wishful' polls alone are staggering for such a new game.

This is the problem. Even I sit here and wonder is it worth hitting the post button, is this game worth my input. I spend more time out of the game waiting for a fix to another issue than in it these days, no wonder the add on community is absent.

phtony06b14_ESO

SystemiK wrote: »

I'm sure a lot of you who use addons will know who Wykkyd is. If not, he's responsible for some of the most useful and most used addons in the game. Inside the spoiler is a quote from him from a recent thread in the Addons / UI forum. It's easily the best post I have seen on this entire forum. ZOS should definitely sit up and take note before things spiral completely out of control...it's a bit out of context without the rest of the thread but I thought this was worth passing along.

Wykkyd wrote: »

I am not going to read every post in this thread. I'm not going to weigh in on who's more right than anyone else or who worded what poorly. At the end of the day you're all just users of Zenimax Online Studios' product. And that's the crux of it.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌, and the rest of your team, I'm going to give you a bit of advice: Disable Lua addon support entirely. Your API is overly, unreasonably limited and when it comes down to it it's fairly obvious that your company either does not really concern themselves with Lua or the API any further than as an afterthought, or that your company is utterly clueless on how to properly manage it.

API updates must be announced in advance of upcoming patches clearly so that your addon developers (IE: those people who dedicate their free time to improving your product and garnering you additional users and accounts through their voluntary, unpaid support) can adapt to your API changes in advance and possibly even provide feedback before you cross that point of no return.

This kind of update has become standard for ZOS and ESO. 0 warning, just pull the trigger. Leave your addon authors guessing because, well, why not... they'll just figure it all out again anyway, right?

If I handled my day job as poorly as your API team does there jobs I wouldn't have my job. I've been in Information Technology for 22 years. I've been programming in one capacity or another for 28 years. I've been on good teams, bad teams, Waterfall projects, Scrum projects, Agile projects, blended cobbled together horribly managed projects, etc. Whatever excuses anyone wants to bat around for the way things are being handled, trust me... I've heard them. Whatever challenge you think you're facing, trust me... I've faced it (and for a lot more serious industries such as military & healthcare). Rest assured, none of the excuses make up for it.

So... just stop. Turn it off. Be a game with a non-customisable UI like you obviously want to be and just be done with it.

I've clocked almost two thousand hours working on addons, a website and talking to communities for this game since October 2013 pre and post launch and while I enjoy playing it I'm || close to just dumping all of my projects and walking away... mostly from the lack of "care" that I see for the subset of your community that I'm a part of.

Wow.

EQBallzz

That is quite illuminating and disheartening. Thanks for sharing that. I honestly hope this game turns around for the better but there sure are a lot of worrying indicators to the contrary.

NakedSnake

Fuzzylumpkins wrote: »

There has never been a more pain in the A** game to write for that has gone out of it's way to break your mods within months of release.

All in the name of immersion, which is fine an dandy for a single player rpg but this is supposed to be an mmo.

KhajitFurTrader

NakedSnake wrote: »

All in the name of immersion, which is fine an dandy for a single player rpg but this is supposed to be an mmo.

First and foremost, Elder Scrolls Online is supposed to be Elder Scrolls. If it doesn't fit into your "MMO" mold, well, can't really say I'm sorry for that. For me, Immersion > all. But to each its own, I suppose.

GreySix

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I have no idea where the add-on authors are going, but have you tried playing without addons?

Yeah, tried it, but found that ESO sucks without addons.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I haven't used an addon since day 1, and my main is VR12. Never had an issue.

Give yourself a cookie.

Akhratos

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

NakedSnake wrote: »

All in the name of immersion, which is fine an dandy for a single player rpg but this is supposed to be an mmo.

First and foremost, Elder Scrolls Online is supposed to be Elder Scrolls. If it doesn't fit into your "MMO" mold, well, can't really say I'm sorry for that. For me, Immersion > all. But to each its own, I suppose.

So Crash Kart Team Racing, wich was a Crash Bandicoot based game, should have irrefutable been a platform game because all other previous were?

Should Final Fantasy XIV:ARR make their playerbase unable to create a character, and instead, force them to play a premade one, because its a FF game?

World of Warcraft and Warhammer should have never existed, a rts can not be a mmorpg.

Its been quite long since I dont read such a biased comment.

Shiroro

Poor dev support, lack of decent endgame to create the need for better addons, lack of playerbase to sustain interest in development. I'm surprised some of the addons got to 500k downloads but I'm sure those numbers creep up slower every day.

Tobiz

I dont like addons, but in this game they are required for me.
I like to check what effect I get out of combining two abilities, and without addons it just cant be done.
Id rather see a explicit character sheet with every stat tied down to what your character is actually experiencing.
The character sheet we have doesnt properly provide information that is essential in a character building game. I have to use addons and still use pen and paper and compare one effect to another.
Im not a superstaffmaxmagickaspec, Im a stamina tank, but I still like to compare and see what is good/better or if that passive 1% actually does what it says.
There are alot of passives, armor set bonuses, skill descriptions et.c. that are wrong or broken so testing and checking the numbers is the best way to debug and to learn.

That said I do believe that addon developers are working against the wind with major unannounced updates to an API that doesnt allow much of anything.
Some might come back when things settle down I hope, but feel free to start your own development. I would, but dont have the time unfortunately.

cracker81

Don't care/don't have addons in WoW yes ESO no feels like it will take away some of my experience with the game.

dcincali

cracker81 wrote: »

Don't care/don't have addons in WoW yes ESO no feels like it will take away some of my experience with the game.

I didn't have addons when I was lvl 10 either, but since i now craft and need every skyshard point i can get, i use several. Also, my guild bank doesn't sort/re-stack all 500 slots itself.

wilson0x4d

As the author of X4D ESO AddOns, the primary interest for me was stopping spammers during early launch, I later found interest in creating a MiniMap, but I haven't found enough time to implement the features I want (custom pins that incorporate all of the data tracking done elsewhere in the AddOn, tracking that was only ever done to facilitate creating a solid, slef-learning minimap addon.)

Beyond that, all other AddOn interest was born from my own gameplay. Thus, the only time I spend to update an AddOn tends to be when I play the game. As a gamer there just isn't enough time in a day, and there are too many great games to justify spending my entire life on just one of them.. (and being an active AddOn developer often becomes just that, your life.)

I'm a software engineer by trade, I work 9-5 M-F (or 9a-2a M-Su if you're like me) and so time outside of personal interest is scarce, if Zenimax were to hire me this is *all* I would do for a living (aside from whatever they hired me for, of course.) I just don't see it happening. I've worked at Blizzard, Myspace and other companies and I'm a Lead-level back-end engineer who has put systems into production that handled millions of -concurrent- users. I find AddOn development trivial, and sometimes I despise the APIs we're given to work with (I only wish for better.) When it comes down to earning money and paying bills or finding ways to work around limited APIs, I tend to choose the thing that makes me money.

I also have projects for my other interests, like Multiboxing tools (and associated AddOn) for World of Warcraft, corrections to open-source projects which I use, etc. etc.

Time is limited, there is never enough for everything.

I've always wanted to find others willing to take over/maintain the work I do, not only for ESO but other projects as well.. but over many projects and 30 years of coding I've learned that there are very few capable, and even fewer who are willing.

I will always maintain my work, it's just a question of when I'll find the time again. For ESO I have not played in over a year, I may start playing again soon due to Morrowind. But even so I'll likely update and maintain my AddOn code at that time, and I'll really be doing it for myself. If others find any benefit I think that's great, and all I can do is apologize that I don't have time to update my code for breaking changes to the game APIs.

IMO stabilization of Game APIs and proper forward-thinking on remaining backward-compatible as the game engine/core/UI are improved is the answer to keeping AddOns functional over the course of years. I cannot stress this enough. As a developer I 100% understand sometimes you cannot avoid a breaking change, but I also understand you can maintain compatibility and perform static analysis to determine when breaking compatibility may have a negative impact on customer happiness. The business just needs to understand the value. Paying customers need to express their desire for 'stable' APIs.

Some of you may find that I would be willing to teach you how to maintain my code if you were really interested in learning. Just hit me up on github, facebook, linkedin, steam, ...

Fuz

EQBallzz wrote: »

I can't think of a game more in need of addons than ESO and some of them are almost required to play the game IMO. There are some huge gaps in the base functionality, UI and just general preferences

Mods availability shouldn't be an excuse for this.

This game is HORRIBLE when bare bones, barely playable.

Artemiisia

wow necro a 3 year old thread

AzraelKrieg

Holy crap this is one hell of a necro.

Teridaxus

Before the necromancer screaming group joins, whats the point of closing those threads when the topics are still relevant in many cases and the excuse of spam seems kinda weak, since there will be a locked and one new thread, clogging the search function even more.