What happened to the Addon community?

Cogo

Mablung wrote: »

@Cogo do you play the game? Serious question not trying to troll you or anything, but I am genuinely curious.

Every day my friend. I am so freaking hooked! "Played" sais 31 days. Sad huh.
And to any moderator, he did not call me troll!!

To be fair about my played time. I did spend a lot of time building a guild.
A guild that does not shout tell me for invite. It take time to get a good guild.

Also, since I do not have any addons, and my attention spam is pathetic at best. When I am on a quest in an area, I see something interesting over there....and there... ooops, mobs. Kill em. Then look at quest. BUT, hmm. I look in the journal for the skyshards tips, and doesnt that building over there look like it could have the skyshard there? Nope.....but I did find a sidequest! So going on with that.

At this point, I am halfway across the map from my starting point with the quest I had, now following another quest.

So its fully understandable how much time I played. :-)

I told you before. I have yet, to experience a single second of boredom. Never farmed or grinded. I do read from the in game help manual. But figure stuff out myself. And doing a lot of errors while doing so!

My only irritation with the game, is Cyro. And it is growing. I liked it a lot around lvl 30. I am CRAP at pvp. Always hated it. But cyro gives me so much to do in a battle, other then 1v1. ESO is the first game since Anarchy Online, where I enjoy PvP!

I am a GREAT catapulter! I have stayed out of Cyro until they fix it so I can be in large groups. 40 man. I only really want big battles. And tactics!

We got 2 americans in our guild!

Feel free to pop over. Would be kinda cool to group with you. Unless you are vet 12.

Why do you ask?

Blackwidow

Cogo wrote: »

Why do you ask?

Because you come across as a ZOS employee in every thread.

khele23eb17_ESO

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Things like seeing procs, buffs, debuffs, how much damage your attacks are doing, how much damage you are taking are pretty superfluous in my opinion.

Yes, because who the hell needs to know that half their skills arent doing what the tooltips say. Hey! Thats an idea. Remove the tooltips. Theyre superfluous, really.

Mablung

@Cogo I ask simply because you post so much on the forums that its a wonder you have time to play the game you love.

Cogo

Blackwidow wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

Why do you ask?

Because you come across as a ZOS employee in every thread.

Why do people keep saying that!?

I do have the same concerns and want fixes as everyone else.
But since I gone through so many MMO from their launch, I know what to expect and see through bugs, since they can be fixed.

Maybe my positive additude does this? I don't know.

And IF I would be a ZOS employee.....why would I be concerned when you got a ban?

I am a positive person by nature, patient, and have a passion for MMOs that offers a lot and requires skill. Could be because I am EQ damaged. Not much since EQ been a real challenge :-p

Fuzzylumpkins

Mablung wrote: »

@Cogo I ask simply because you post so much on the forums that its a wonder you have time to play the game you love.

Blackwidow wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

Why do you ask?

Because you come across as a ZOS employee in every thread.

He actually comes across a larp'er type that is so involved in his role play life that anything else does not exist. Which if life somehow is able to afford that and still be productive in human society, it is fine but back to topic:

Add ons make them game a bit more able to be stomached. Players writing add ons for games is a great way to measure the health of the game as it shows there is a community that cares and interested. Not just blindly says everything is fine and moves on. Great you play without add ons, that is how you get your moneys worth. For the rest of us that work, the time needed to invest in searching out sky shards without an add on is not a luxury or what we feel is "fun" or a good use of time we do have to play.

circilion

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I have no idea where the add-on authors are going, but have you tried playing without addons?

I haven't used an addon since day 1, and my main is VR12. Never had an issue.

Not even the sky shard Addon..... ... .... .. . . . . . .. . . . . .. . . .. .... :'(

Your amazing!

Cogo

Mablung wrote: »

@Cogo I ask simply because you post so much on the forums that its a wonder you have time to play the game you love.

Ah.

Well, when I don't play, I have access to a computer and quite often browse forums while working.

I have tried to restrain myself a little, but when someone posts something about ESO which I have a passion for, that is untrue and not a fact. I get a bit testy.

I could choose to post less, but its the EQ in me. Forums, for me is community and if you want to get heard, you try. I want to be part of the community.

My first lots of posts where in confusion how many players who stated so many things that was plain wrong. Where if you only "read the label" on ESO. They might not even play the game.

I dont have any jesus complex to correct people and be right.
I just dont like false info. Not to be confused with my discussions about ESO.

Someone dont like quests. Fine. Personal things. I move along.

Someone stating that quests in ESO are boring and nothing new, only kill 10, etc. Is simply not true. There is where my first reactions gone......

I have a thing for the truth. ;-)

Tabbycat

I like my ESO like I like my TES single player games.

With mods.

I honestly think that many of the things that we have mods for should have been made toggleable options in the built in interface. That way if you wanted to play to VR12 without scrolling combat text and mini maps and buff timers you could. But if someone else wanted them, they 'd have the option.

If ZOS is worried about addons, they should just expand the options in the stock UI.

Mablung

Cogo wrote: »

I have a thing for the truth. ;-)

Truth in relation to this game is in the eye of the beholder.

Just because someone states that quests are not fun or repetitive because of kill 10 wolves or whatever does not make it false. Just as your definition of questing is not false.

What is happening is each individual has their own interpretation in regards to what each person finds fun and rewarding. Stating someone elses truth is wrong is part of the big problem here on the forums. There is no correct way or wrong way to enjoy this game. It is only up to the individual.

If you do not agree with someones truth, offer insight as to why you enjoy the game and how you accomplish your fun. I do not believe anyone should be told they are wrong for their version of truth in relation to this game.

Akhratos

I guess everybody saying damage numbers are superfluous would agree to rollback every fix for bugged skills that have been found and reported to the devs through testing thanks to the community.

I am not the one to blame if the developers of an AAA mmorpg released in 2014 do not give me the chance to compare the gear I am about to craft with the piece I have equipped neither the ability to activate something so basic like cinematic subtitles.

babylon

I don't think reasoning is of any use here, people need to have a certain level of consciousness of the other being as seeing the world from different viewpoints to them to understand perspectives and points of view are different for everyone...that usually comes around the age of 7, though some skip this development stage it seems.

Cogo

Mablung wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

I have a thing for the truth. ;-)

Truth in relation to this game is in the eye of the beholder.

Just because someone states that quests are not fun or repetitive because of kill 10 wolves or whatever does not make it false. Just as your definition of questing is not false.

What is happening is each individual has their own interpretation in regards to what each person finds fun and rewarding. Stating someone elses truth is wrong is part of the big problem here on the forums. There is no correct way or wrong way to enjoy this game. It is only up to the individual.

If you do not agree with someones truth, offer insight as to why you enjoy the game and how you accomplish your fun. I do not believe anyone should be told they are wrong for their version of truth in relation to this game.

Sorry, maybe my bad way to explain things.

I mean. If someone states that ESO only have quests that are kill 10, go there. And nothing else. That is not true.

I did not mean that its false if someone have an opinion or interpretation.
Hell, you should know by now, I am SO for free speech!

Maybe to be more clear.

Someone states: ESO have no classes.
That is false. Extreme? But that was what I meant.

And btw, you do spend time here as well, so dont hit me in the head with that one!

Cogo

Mablung wrote: »

What is happening is each individual has their own interpretation in regards to what each person finds fun and rewarding. Stating someone elses truth is wrong is part of the big problem here on the forums. There is no correct way or wrong way to enjoy this game. It is only up to the individual.

I just HAD to highlight this. This is nothing else then a short, awesome, beautiful way of explaining what ESO is.

Why cant I write like that!

Khazaad

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

API changes are continuing to be the bane of the addon community.

Enthusiasm in the game will bottleneck addon development way before API acrobatics will. @Arsenic_Touch‌

Cogo

Fuzzylumpkins wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

@Cogo I ask simply because you post so much on the forums that its a wonder you have time to play the game you love.

Blackwidow wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

Why do you ask?

Because you come across as a ZOS employee in every thread.

He actually comes across a larp'er type that is so involved in his role play life that anything else does not exist. Which if life somehow is able to afford that and still be productive in human society, it is fine but back to topic:

Add ons make them game a bit more able to be stomached. Players writing add ons for games is a great way to measure the health of the game as it shows there is a community that cares and interested. Not just blindly says everything is fine and moves on. Great you play without add ons, that is how you get your moneys worth. For the rest of us that work, the time needed to invest in searching out sky shards without an add on is not a luxury or what we feel is "fun" or a good use of time we do have to play.

I do work sir :-)

And the reason I do not use any addons is simply because I have found no need for any....yet! I will use an addon if I find any that would add anything.

Also, a reason why I refuse to use anything that gives me info, like where skyshards are, is because I am an elitist player. I want to be the BEST. But I did it. Not an addon. Not a google. Not some guide. I EARNED what I am ;-)

I also like ESO outstanding feature to explore! Wierd fact, I found more lorebooks then some of my guildies who do has the addon :-p.

What does Larp'er mean? Sorry, I am swedish and dont know that word.


But to the subject. Addons are fine! Great even! You can customize your game as it will suit you.Those who use addons for enhancing the experience of the game. Visual or whatever. They rarely have problems....

Those who rely soly on addons for combat info....and say they cant play without them. Its sad that they dont enjoy the game......but, still, cant you fight yourself without the help of the computer? Heh, sorry but I do giggle about that.

Nazon_Katts

@Cogo LARP = Live Action Role Play

Mablung

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

@Cogo LARP = Live Action Role Play

The people that dress up and hit each other with foam covered plastic pipe or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_ekugPKqFw

Cogo

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

@Cogo LARP = Live Action Role Play

Oh no way!

In my teems when a group of friends offered me to come along, and this is a long time ago. To a roleplay event. Sure...sounded okish. Wasnt to sure what it meant, but I love RP games even since Dungeons and dragons in the 80ies.

NO WAY! Dressing up and acting....even if its friendly and stuff. ITs AWEFUL!

Some people like that. I do NOT. I get muuuuch better enjoyment from RPG games, with stories and lots of stuff.

RPG games are simply more "real" and tons better "acting" then real live roleplay.....ugh!

I dont "act" RP. I need to "connect" to my char and the game. Its sorta me, through Oghur! I choose choices with honor, as an orc. Stuff like that.

But you wount see me acting anything. Not for me.
Not sure I like the comment of being called that btw.......

JungleBoot

From a programming perspective and a minimal knowledge of coding and software projects, ESO is an ongoing software project. It will always have old content that needs improvement and new content in the works. With that said, anyone with rudimentary coding experience can tell the game is still in beta.

We just received our second major patch -- not update. Craglorn constitutes content held back for release as Veteran Content. Don't be fooled. They had to have this in the works before release to make good on their promise of content delivery. You're right, though. That's my opinion and I don't know it to be factual. But, it's an educated guess. Because Zenimax/Bethesda is all about meeting deadlines instead of quality. They went live knowing they had broken quests and a multitude of problems.

So, you have your Add-on community trying to keep up with an ever changing code base --- "code base". Once they have a stable and reliable "code base", I suspect you will see a surge in add-ons. Until then, you are asking a lot for someone not working for Zenimax to stay on top of something that is essentially a hobby and side project.

Tandor

kitsinni wrote: »

The truth is they should have developed an interface that didn't need addons but they chose the lazy path to have your fans do your work for free and then you can blame any issues with the game on the addons.

No, the truth is that they created a default UI that for many people is entirely adequate, but also built in a modding facility allowing optional enhancements for those who want them - not because they're lazy but because that has always been a key aspect of the Elder Scrolls games and without it people would be here complaining even more bitterly about the omission!

Of course, once you have built in a modding facility there's no point in including every conceivable enhancement in the default UI, you have to take a conscious decision to leave some bits out for the modders to pick up on. The dilemma is finding the right balance and purely from a personal point of view I think ZOS have done a pretty good job on that. I find the default UI perfectly ok, but can also see why some of the addons are appealing to some other players who will benefit from them in a way that I would not.

Cogo

WoW have the exact same concept. And WoW really do require addons to be playable. ESO do not.

I really do not understand WHY Zenimax would have anything at all to do with how addons works or not? They are nice enough to allow them. "Alien" software into their application.

If zenimax made the addons, sure, but that would make 10 addons instead of...what 1000?

The whole idea is to give players a way to customize the game without changing any game mechanics such at infinite gold or whatever.
What type of addon is up to everyone, where the sky is the limit.

Anyone with the slightest experience from business or software would understand this without even played any MMO.

I do understand difference in opinions, but I fail to understand why Zenimax would support a software they do not create, control, manage, develop or even have a clue what players wants.

Do you complain at the football stadium if the soda machine isn't working?

phtony06b14_ESO

They took one look at the disclaimer added after the last patch & said ciao. Kidding, kidding but really I've never seen such a distinct add-on disclaimer in all my days playing MMOs that support add-ons. I quit reading it after a while but I felt like it was a slap to those who create & use add-ons. ZoS may feel like a lot of their support ticket problems are add-on related but ZoS should also look in the mirror b/c a lot of the mechanical issues are NOT add-on related.

Pele

david271749 wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

API changes are continuing to be the bane of the addon community.

+people who actually play tend to be the ones who work on addons. Drive people away, and some of them will end up being part of the addon community. I've seen a couple authors post why they stopped working on addons. It's usually because of bugs.

Indeed. When an add-on dev stops developing their add-on(s), chances are great that they've stopped playing the game.

It takes a lot of time to code and maintain add-ons. They aren't being paid, so why should they bother if they no longer play?

SystemiK

I'm sure a lot of you who use addons will know who Wykkyd is. If not, he's responsible for some of the most useful and most used addons in the game. Inside the spoiler is a quote from him from a recent thread in the Addons / UI forum. It's easily the best post I have seen on this entire forum. ZOS should definitely sit up and take note before things spiral completely out of control...it's a bit out of context without the rest of the thread but I thought this was worth passing along.

Wykkyd wrote: »

I am not going to read every post in this thread. I'm not going to weigh in on who's more right than anyone else or who worded what poorly. At the end of the day you're all just users of Zenimax Online Studios' product. And that's the crux of it.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌, and the rest of your team, I'm going to give you a bit of advice: Disable Lua addon support entirely. Your API is overly, unreasonably limited and when it comes down to it it's fairly obvious that your company either does not really concern themselves with Lua or the API any further than as an afterthought, or that your company is utterly clueless on how to properly manage it.

API updates must be announced in advance of upcoming patches clearly so that your addon developers (IE: those people who dedicate their free time to improving your product and garnering you additional users and accounts through their voluntary, unpaid support) can adapt to your API changes in advance and possibly even provide feedback before you cross that point of no return.

This kind of update has become standard for ZOS and ESO. 0 warning, just pull the trigger. Leave your addon authors guessing because, well, why not... they'll just figure it all out again anyway, right?

If I handled my day job as poorly as your API team does there jobs I wouldn't have my job. I've been in Information Technology for 22 years. I've been programming in one capacity or another for 28 years. I've been on good teams, bad teams, Waterfall projects, Scrum projects, Agile projects, blended cobbled together horribly managed projects, etc. Whatever excuses anyone wants to bat around for the way things are being handled, trust me... I've heard them. Whatever challenge you think you're facing, trust me... I've faced it (and for a lot more serious industries such as military & healthcare). Rest assured, none of the excuses make up for it.

So... just stop. Turn it off. Be a game with a non-customisable UI like you obviously want to be and just be done with it.

I've clocked almost two thousand hours working on addons, a website and talking to communities for this game since October 2013 pre and post launch and while I enjoy playing it I'm || close to just dumping all of my projects and walking away... mostly from the lack of "care" that I see for the subset of your community that I'm a part of.

tuckerpb2

FrauPerchta wrote: »

Most addon writers stop updating their addon when they leave a game so they can make addons for what ever game they move to.

yep they are all going to wildstar.

Mablung

tuckerpb2 wrote: »

FrauPerchta wrote: »

Most addon writers stop updating their addon when they leave a game so they can make addons for what ever game they move to.

yep they are all going to wildstar.

If a large portion of the modding community leaves this game.....

twev

Mablung wrote: »

tuckerpb2 wrote: »

FrauPerchta wrote: »

Most addon writers stop updating their addon when they leave a game so they can make addons for what ever game they move to.

yep they are all going to wildstar.

If a large portion of the modding community leaves this game.....

It's such an obvious conclusion, right?
There are a fair number of people who stick with the game through some of the frustrating tedium of the inv/bank system, or grinding, or whatever irks them - because add-ons remove some of the tedium or annoyance from other tasks, or just return value of information for time invested.

When that population of add-on community lessens, a lot of the new players without the benefit of having add-ons to opt for, will get fed up sooner, and leave earlier.

It stands to reason.

Nox_Aeterna

Mate , i would not play this game without some of the addons i have right now , apparently i need to go home and test them today.

I hope they are working , if they are not ...

Well , like i said , without them , there is no point in even playing.

SystemiK

You should spend an hour or two over in the Addons / UI subforum. There are some EXTREMELY unhappy addon developers over there...I'd say the mood is just shy of riot.