Was this some sort of, demonstration?

  • Ragnar_Lodbrok
    Ragnar_Lodbrok
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    GrfxGawd wrote: »
    As a graphic designer and UI professional for nearly 20 years I know there's times when underlying code changes break things. Sometimes a little, sometimes everything ends up having to be scrapped. It's part of the business.

    But literally every single addon I run, was broken, by what you did, except one - mine. And that's because my piddling little 32 byte file is outside your environment. You can't touch it, you can't change what it does or how it behaves. It doesn't even need ESO, it can be used for any application to make more resources available while limiting cores so other processes aren't starved.

    What happened today was very, very disruptive to your most ardent supporters. Those who gain nothing by adding significant value to what you profit from. And to those who use those privately developed, personally funded intellectual properties to enrich their gaming experience.

    The licensing agreement forced to accept as TOS, killing settings files. Many things just thrashed, completely and utterly inoperable. I spent hours trying to discover what's even salvageable. Most wasn't. I lost valuable data, and valuable time that could, should have been spent enjoying/playing the game.

    We've already lost some of the Major players in the addon scene. Some of the best third party developers who contributed the most widely used third party additions to TESO. For the betterment of your community, and your paying customers others stepped up and took over most of those projects.

    You have tough choices to make. Every business venture does. But maybe sit yourself in the chair of gamer Joe, or coder Jane - try to sit there and stare at your screen and see everything broken, and feel that. Feel that weight settle in. Feel the disappointment, feel it turn to frustration, to uncertainty - to paint it vivid, distrust.

    It plants the very real seed that your efforts, your investment as a player and/or a developer are jeopardized.

    No one is ever comfortable with a rug being jerked out from underneath them in a business relationship, ever. And as a former professional working for globally top ranked companies at the leading edge of their industries, I know for fact you are all too aware and familiar with that feeling yourselfs. But you get paid. We have to pay for the privilege.

    Sincerely,
    Bryan Montford
    Beta Participant, Imperial Edition Pre Order customer, and (very) minor third party "developer" for TESO gamers.

    Personally Id have been happy they didnt allow add ons. Add ons were the root cause of all the botting issues for months.
    Want to play a dps? Roll light armor and staffs.
    Want to play a tank? Roll light armor and staffs.
    Want to play a healer? Roll light armor and staffs.
    ESO, play your way*

    *As long as its light armor and staff.
  • GrfxGawd
    GrfxGawd
    ✭✭✭
    Cairenn wrote: »
    Addons are legitimately written pieces of code that use the supplied approved UI API.
    Thank you so much for that affirmation, and as the co-founder of ESOUI you'd know as well as any expert. One might employ the term "authoritative" concerning the subject.

    My little .bat file (TESO Turbo) does not utilize anything from Zenimax, it operates at the OS level, using a process that today I found has been suggested and published on the support forums here. Albeit modified to prevent the potential issues they point out.

    Even so, I've lost a full 20 fps, and there's nothing I can do to recover it.

    My point being, they broke it so hard, you can't compensate for it at the OS level. Much less what it's done to the third party addon community.
    Edited by GrfxGawd on June 25, 2014 11:16PM
    You know, I was once an optimistic gamer just like you. Then I took a patch to the game client from Zenimax.
  • Sasky
    Sasky
    ✭✭✭
    Personally Id have been happy they didnt allow add ons. Add ons were the root cause of all the botting issues for months.

    False. You cannot do any sort of movement or combat action under the official API. The botting programs use 3rd party utilities, not the official addon API.


    Personally, I've been very lucky in that only one of my addons I've made has only had one small issue with the API change. However, it is unnerving because even testing on PTS, you don't know for sure.

    Backwards compatible changes (like adding new functions, variables, etc) are one thing to do unannounced. Backwards-incompatible API changes are horrendous for anyone trying to use that API even when it is announced.

    Best practice: never* change existing, defined API functions or interfaces. Always add new functions and deprecate old functions, unless its actively being used as an exploit. When you deprecate a function, you basically say: "I'm going to remove this function. This is your grace period to fix it before its gone." Keep this grace period at 2 weeks or more -- ideally a month minimum.

    *sure, never is ideal but there will be situations. In this case you can make it fail gracefully (do a no-op for functions) and/or notify about it well ahead of time.
    Sasky (Zaniira, Daggerfall Covenant)
    Addons: AutoInvite, CyrHUD, Others
  • GrfxGawd
    GrfxGawd
    ✭✭✭
    Sasky wrote: »
    Best practice: never* change existing, defined API functions or interfaces. Always add new functions and deprecate old functions...
    Even Mr. I Am Not A Programmer knows this. I'm not a programmer, but I had to understand what they were doing so the work I did accomplished the needed task at hand. I was the bridge to fill the void between coder and and end user.
    You know, I was once an optimistic gamer just like you. Then I took a patch to the game client from Zenimax.
  • GnatB
    GnatB
    ✭✭✭✭
    Cairenn wrote: »
    Trust me, botters don't bother using addons. They straight up hack the game and use tools they write themselves that absolutely don't follow any of the rules.

    That isn't *always* true. I've played games where there were bot add-ons you could download if you knew where to look that were simply lua scripts. Some of the functionality I've seen in ESO make me suspect it would have been possible here too.

    That said, yeah. The serious botters would be straightup hacking the game, as it's more efficient. (i.e. teleport/no clip hacks vs the bot blindly walking in the direction of a detected objective and hoping it gets there.) That said, the lua bots are generally easier for the layishman to implement/install.
    Achievements Suck
  • scratchnsniff
    scratchnsniff
    ✭✭✭
    Wykkyd wrote: »
    I am not going to read every post in this thread. I'm not going to weigh in on who's more right than anyone else or who worded what poorly. At the end of the day you're all just users of Zenimax Online Studios' product. And that's the crux of it.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno‌, and the rest of your team, I'm going to give you a bit of advice: Disable Lua addon support entirely. Your API is overly, unreasonably limited and when it comes down to it it's fairly obvious that your company either does not really concern themselves with Lua or the API any further than as an afterthought, or that your company is utterly clueless on how to properly manage it.

    API updates must be announced in advance of upcoming patches clearly so that your addon developers (IE: those people who dedicate their free time to improving your product and garnering you additional users and accounts through their voluntary, unpaid support) can adapt to your API changes in advance and possibly even provide feedback before you cross that point of no return.

    This kind of update has become standard for ZOS and ESO. 0 warning, just pull the trigger. Leave your addon authors guessing because, well, why not... they'll just figure it all out again anyway, right?

    If I handled my day job as poorly as your API team does there jobs I wouldn't have my job. I've been in Information Technology for 22 years. I've been programming in one capacity or another for 28 years. I've been on good teams, bad teams, Waterfall projects, Scrum projects, Agile projects, blended cobbled together horribly managed projects, etc. Whatever excuses anyone wants to bat around for the way things are being handled, trust me... I've heard them. Whatever challenge you think you're facing, trust me... I've faced it (and for a lot more serious industries such as military & healthcare). Rest assured, none of the excuses make up for it.

    So... just stop. Turn it off. Be a game with a non-customisable UI like you obviously want to be and just be done with it.

    I've clocked almost two thousand hours working on addons, a website and talking to communities for this game since October 2013 pre and post launch and while I enjoy playing it I'm || close to just dumping all of my projects and walking away... mostly from the lack of "care" that I see for the subset of your community that I'm a part of.

    This got me all fired up.....YEAH ZOS WHAT HE SAID!

    Excellent post
    They call me the magic man.
    *** Now you see me***
    *** Now you don't ***
  • asonkin
    asonkin
    Soul Shriven
    Something seems not right here - the PTS server announcement about update 2 was up from 5th June (h**p://massively.joystiq.com/2014/06/05/elder-scrolls-online-begins-testing-update-2/):
    - As our PTS community can tell everyone, the server has had its own account system for many months now. I'm very happy to announce that any player with an active ESO account can now patch and play on PTS using the normal ESO launcher.
    I don't want to accuse anybody of anything, but if Zen have PTS environment, why nobody came with the list of things that are broken in update 2 to the dev community before?
    Edited by asonkin on June 26, 2014 9:57AM
  • mumok
    mumok
    ✭✭✭
    Aiiane wrote: »
    I have to agree with Wykkyd here - I'm fairly close to just walking away as well. Not because my particular addons were all that broken in this particular update, but because of the general lack of respect towards addon developers it seems to imply.

    I agree with Aiiane.

    Every time ZOS makes a ridiculous blunder like this my desire to even log on becomes less and less. I usually play for 3-4 hours in the evening...I was on for about an hour last night. Not because of a particular addon being broken(although they do make this game actually playable), but because I see actions like this as a push for me to go elsewhere.

    I wonder if we will get an official comment from ZOS about this.
  • Sihnfahl
    Sihnfahl
    ✭✭✭✭
    asonkin wrote: »
    if Zen have PTS environment, why nobody came with the list of things that are broken in update 2 to the dev community before?
    The non-public testers were just slated to test what they were told to test. Some changes went through without QAing because they didn't expect it'd need QA.

    It was only recently they put stuff public...

    Not many folks use AddOns on the PTS and... well, not everything is activated on PTS or easily achieved in such a short time.

    Don't forget it'd take several weeks of research to get a 5 piece set of hunding's rage. So there's one thing that can't be tested.

    Cyrodiil is disabled on PTS. So there goes testing AvA set bonuses, changes to Silver Bolts/Shards/Leash... or noticing people wall hopping to get into opposing faction start zones...
  • GrfxGawd
    GrfxGawd
    ✭✭✭
    If this was a "bug", as it has been so generously monikered, ZOS has had a great many hours to announce and make apology for the accidental disruption and deletion of data caused by their programming error, the User Account "" error. Nothing has been said.

    This was no accidental oversight on the part of Zenimax. The "@nothingHereNow"; combined with the borderline draconian additional TOS along with no API being delivered and utter and complete disregard of of basic industry standard of deprecation of functions (and more) - this wasn't an accident. At best, you can call it massive systemic corporate incompetence, but I think that's just playing the part of the naive apologist.

    Now, lest someone says "You should worry about fixing a problem and not waste our space - blah blah blah" - Accurately assessing the origin of a failure is an extremely crucial part of systemically isolating both the chain of events, and where/how errors were induced before you can begin to formulate methodologies to mitigate what's wrong now, and implement solutions to help prevent future failures.
    You know, I was once an optimistic gamer just like you. Then I took a patch to the game client from Zenimax.
  • Gillysan
    Gillysan
    ✭✭✭✭
    Corithna wrote: »
    The idea of bringing the elder scrolls into the MMO space has been a contentious one from the very beginning. With the TES crowd expecting one set of features while the MMO crowd expects differing set.

    The API, at it's best was an attempt to resolve a massive battle between these two groups as to what the game 'should' be visually. What tools 'should' be present or available. I witnessed much of it, participated in more then a few of those discussions prior to this games launch.

    The middle ground, that I think they hoped to find, was a void no mans lands that no one wanted. And so it was decided that they would focus on making this title as true to it's name as they could whilst simultaneously allowing for third party addons to fill the gaps in functionality desired by some portion of the customer base. This basically sums up what we were all told back in October when the PTS first launched and we all got our first glimpse at the wide open API.

    When early access launch arrived and we realized the amount of restriction that the API was then subject, a whole new round of recriminations, accusations, and complaints flew about with wild abandon. For all the abuse, all the name calling, all the cries for this to included or excluded. (And yes I am guilty of contributing to this so please don't think that I'm excluding myself in this.) For all of this, is it any real wonder that the API may have indeed have become little more then an afterthought? A system that is only begrudgingly included. I can't really blame the Zenimax team if this is indeed the case. I know I've personally been disgusted by the whole mess many times.

    Perhaps it would be for the betterment of the game as a whole for the entire API to be shut down. Just as @Wykkyd‌ suggested. Sigh, I don't know. What I do know is that there are works out there that I find convenient. But there is nothing out there that I find I can not live without and be happy with the game. There have been those in this thread who have said that "we wouldn't have known how broken things were with out such a such add on!" A line I heard iterated many times once @Atropos‌ put out FTC. Perhaps after all is said and done we would have all been better off not knowing, and simply allowed ZOS to tinker with the numbers behind the scenes until they hit something that felt right. A point of view I've expressed many times only to earn the scorn of many in our community. The line "ignorance is bliss" quoted by @Attorneyatlawl‌ comes to mind in particular. And despite how it might sound here, he was not in agreement with me on these points.

    Once thing that the OP does illustrate well is the depth of the emotional response these individuals can, have and do put into these forums and their direct feedback. This game is going in one direction. Our add on community, I think, is headed in another. And no that does not included every author but is intended as an observation of the overall trend of the applications as they have been developed. They seek, in general, to as best they can, replicate systems common to the mmo universe. While Zenimax if focused on making this a TES game first and foremost. And despite this, it is expressed here, the desire to be shown deference. That the desires of our authors should take a front seat in the design chair, to in effect direct where this ship is headed. I understand the desire. But I also think it exceedingly foolhardy to expect. Especially this early in the game.

    Advanced warning, and complete documentation of upcoming API changes is something that will eventually come about. But for now the waters are far too turbulent. Changes that are directed too abrupt to accommodate such systems. Not to mention the content release schedule that is breakneck by anyone's standards.

    To @GrfxGawd‌ your detractors are right in one thing, for the most part your post was an emotional catharsis. The relevancy of such a response to a patch is not a thing I'm going to get pulled into however. But keep in mind that direct feedback that as you state you intended for Zenimax's eyes, would be better placed in feedback as opposed to here. More appropriate here I think would be an attempt to document the problem and then list what you've found does or does not work as a fix. It has nothing to do with not wishing 'public discussion' but rather that you've misplaced where you've chosen to 'rant'. For my part let me just say that I'm sorry to hear you've had such a rough time of it. I hope a resolution comes your way quickly. With no information on you're batch file aside from the fact that you say it helps better utilize system resources, there is little I can offer you in the way of help. I any case good luck to you.
    I have played some TES but I won't count myself as a fan. Solo games come and go for me. I tend to stick around with online games though.

    I think you are wrong. Ignorance is bliss? No way, we have thousands of games to compare this game to. If the vanilla UI was the only way available to play this game I most likely would have never bought the game. There is a chance I might have bought it, but I would have been bug reporting the hell out of the UI. Once I realized this plain UI was the vision for this game I would have felt ripped off and quit. Plain and simple.
  • SkOODaT
    SkOODaT
    ✭✭
    GrfxGawd wrote: »
    If this was a "bug", as it has been so generously monikered, ZOS has had a great many hours to announce and make apology for the accidental disruption and deletion of data caused by their programming error, the User Account "" error. Nothing has been said.

    it has been confirmed by ZO that it IS a bug
    ....they should of posted information on this the first HOUR the patch was back up... 2 days later is totally unacceptable
  • Mabh
    Mabh
    I have to agree with the sentiments of this thread and also thank the addon community for their work.

    For whatever reason Zenimax decided to go with this ui for ESO, be it laziness, money or trying to keep with Elder Scrolls theme, it does not work well in the mmo setting as it is not practical or very functional. Therefore, due to the poor ui I have had to resort to the greatest number of addons I have had to use in any mmo I have played.

    Can I play with the original ui settings? Yes I can, but those missing functions that a modern or not so new ui have start out as annoying and then compound on each other is what will drive people away from this game. It would be in Zenimax's best interest to support the addon community because they help in the enjoyment of this game. Playing a game with lots of little annoyances eventually pushes them out the door.
  • Corithna
    Corithna
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gillysan wrote: »
    I have played some TES but I won't count myself as a fan. Solo games come and go for me. I tend to stick around with online games though.

    I think you are wrong. Ignorance is bliss? No way, we have thousands of games to compare this game to. If the vanilla UI was the only way available to play this game I most likely would have never bought the game. There is a chance I might have bought it, but I would have been bug reporting the hell out of the UI. Once I realized this plain UI was the vision for this game I would have felt ripped off and quit. Plain and simple.

    Okay, well first off the 'ignorance is bliss' part was a quote from another player who was saying such as a means of mocking, it was not a statement I was advocating. But howsoever, you say that you think I'm wrong. I put a lot of stuff in that post so perhaps you should elaborate a bit.

    Bug reports are not a forum to post your complaints about design decisions but rather a feedback tool to inform the developers when items in the product are not performing as intended designed. Feedback and suggestions are where such opinions on design belong. Just an FYI.

    The default UI is basically the same as that of the last TES title with the exception of the added cast bar. At least during combat. Other features as of similar design. And while you may well have felt ripped off and quit as you say, there were however around 20 million players who purchased that title and played the hell out of it. A pretty good starting point if you ask me.

    All in all I like the overall design. It suits how the game plays out, is great for staying out of way so players get to really see the world Zenimax has crafted. But really lets not start that fight all over again, it's not worth it. So let me just say this, preferences are not right or wrong they are simply each persons opinion. If it was something other then this that you're saying that I'm wrong about then please do clarify yourself. But in either case farewell.
    For all the millions of pages of codified law we have enacted in this nation alone, all of it, every word, sentence, paragraph and nuance, is steeped in the singular idea of this:

    "Be good to one another."
  • Corithna
    Corithna
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    GrfxGawd wrote: »
    If this was a "bug", as it has been so generously monikered, ZOS has had a great many hours to announce and make apology for the accidental disruption and deletion of data caused by their programming error, the User Account "" error. Nothing has been said.

    This was no accidental oversight on the part of Zenimax. The "@nothingHereNow"; combined with the borderline draconian additional TOS along with no API being delivered and utter and complete disregard of of basic industry standard of deprecation of functions (and more) - this wasn't an accident. At best, you can call it massive systemic corporate incompetence, but I think that's just playing the part of the naive apologist.

    Now, lest someone says "You should worry about fixing a problem and not waste our space - blah blah blah" - Accurately assessing the origin of a failure is an extremely crucial part of systemically isolating both the chain of events, and where/how errors were induced before you can begin to formulate methodologies to mitigate what's wrong now, and implement solutions to help prevent future failures.

    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/114325/patch-v1-2-3-known-issues#latest

    @GrfxGawd‌
    Perhaps you should check out the above link. And um perhaps a bit more research might be in order prior to such posts. The link was originally posted at 3:20PM yesterday.

    P.S. Per you last bolded section. You are not a part of that process. Nor am I. Neither of us have access to the appropriate data to make any such assessment. To assume that such assessments are not routinely done is naive at best vindictive at worst.
    Edited by Corithna on June 26, 2014 9:15PM
    For all the millions of pages of codified law we have enacted in this nation alone, all of it, every word, sentence, paragraph and nuance, is steeped in the singular idea of this:

    "Be good to one another."
  • GrfxGawd
    GrfxGawd
    ✭✭✭
    SkOODaT wrote: »
    it has been confirmed by ZO that it IS a bug
    ....they should of posted information on this the first HOUR the patch was back up... 2 days later is totally unacceptable
    To reiterate what Wykkyd has already stated, if I as a designer had done my job as they are doing theirs, I wouldn't have had a job.

    If we rolled an update to the server and so much as a single image file, or form element, anything didn't work it was address immediately. I don't mean two days later acknowledged, not two hours - we'd better darn well as a team have identified the issue and be placing a fix in two minutes or less. If you didn't perform on that sort of level you wouldn't have even been hired, second you'd face immediate dismissal. Cardboard box at your desk, slide in the pictures of your family and walked out the door. We watched it happen more than once. And at that company, all we were doing was booking hotel rooms, flights, and car rentals.

    We didn't have days to look into something. We had minutes to deliver unfailing function. And we didn't leave and we didn't stop until any task that was delivered to us was complete, and completely addressed.
    You know, I was once an optimistic gamer just like you. Then I took a patch to the game client from Zenimax.
  • GrfxGawd
    GrfxGawd
    ✭✭✭
    Corithna wrote: »
    The idea of bringing the elder scrolls into the MMO space has been a contentious one from the very beginning... And so it was decided that they would focus on making this title as true to it's name as they could whilst simultaneously allowing for third party addons to fill the gaps in functionality desired by some portion of the customer base. ... While Zenimax if focused on making this a TES game first and foremost.
    @Corithna
    This brings us to a place and a standard I had never attempted to apply to TESO. If this is the standard by which I am to judge the efforts of Zenimax and TESO, they have failed on a level I literally have no scale to compare against.

    Other than art, you show me any single aspect of this game that is even a fractional shadow of the content, depth, or extensibility of any of Bethesda's previously released single player TES titles. It couldn't pass muster as a tech demo for a new single player addition to the TES franchise.

    I walked into this as a beta tester with the concept to judge it as it's own work, upon it's own merits as a TES themed experience and immediately accepted that to do anything else was to deny myself and the developer the chance to fairly judge what was offered. And that is the only standard I have held it to. On that level, I feel it has merit and value.

    But to even suggest that this title is in any way even a minor and crippled subset of the previous single player titles isn't laughable, it's a travesty.


    As for my tiny little .bat file, it's completely unaffected by any of this. Doing some research yesterday I discovered that what I do with that file is only a better implementation of the process published by and released by ZOS tech support for individuals who had serious difficulty running the game. It is an OS level change to how the game client is allocated system resources, very simple. 32 bytes simple.
    Edited by GrfxGawd on June 26, 2014 10:08PM
    You know, I was once an optimistic gamer just like you. Then I took a patch to the game client from Zenimax.
Sign In or Register to comment.