The problem with modern MMOs...

Doctoruniverse

Megaserver they did in Neverwinter MMO. They didnt call it megaserver but it worked the exact same way with phasing. You also had to travel to other players even though you stood right beside them.

Ser Lobo

Mablung wrote: »

Doctoruniverse wrote: »

Maybe I missed something but what was the new gimmick in ESO ?

Megaserver, non traditional class roles just to name a couple.

Megaserver, done by EvE online, Guild Wars, and more recently, Neverwinter Online.

And we've all seen the gambit of character roles being altered from the holy trinity, in pre-NGE SWG, EvE Online (yet again), Ultima Online, Matrix Online, and maybe one or two others.

Doctoruniverse

I know what the pvp in ESO isnt new either there was also something like that in DAoC and warhammer online.

To be honest I havent seen 1 new innovation where I went WOW!

Maybe the massive amount of bookcases. I never seen so many bookcases, but really who wants to stand around reading in a game.

Ser Lobo

Doctoruniverse wrote: »

I know what the pvp in ESO isnt new either there was also something like that in DAoC and warhammer online.

To be honest I havent seen 1 new innovation where I went WOW!

Maybe the massive amount of bookcases. I never seen so many bookcases, but really who wants to stand around reading in a game.

Me.

GreySix

Doctoruniverse wrote: »

Maybe I missed something but what was the new gimmick in ESO ?

Solo-only play in the main quest.

Doctoruniverse

Yeah its settled then the new innovation in ESO is :
The ability to "not" party during the mainquest.

Trademark owned by zenimax.

Ser Lobo

Sad, but that is my biggest beef with this game. The grouping mechanics are perfectly fine (if a little buggy) for world content and whatnot.

But questing is absolutely horrid to do between friends and guildies. I know they say they are working on it, but I think it's the second biggest failing of the game as a whole.

The first being the lack of housing, in an Elder Scrolls game.

Doctoruniverse

Hear if you like the housing thing you should try Archage

Mablung

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Sad, but that is my biggest beef with this game. The grouping mechanics are perfectly fine (if a little buggy) for world content and whatnot.

But questing is absolutely horrid to do between friends and guildies. I know they say they are working on it, but I think it's the second biggest failing of the game as a whole.

The first being the lack of housing, in an Elder Scrolls game.

I believe had grouping been allowed no matter where you are grouped members were in a specific quest line and avoided the phasing that went along with it, VR content gripes would be virtually non existent.

Ser Lobo

Doctoruniverse wrote: »

Hear if you like the housing thing you should try Archage

I don't like the graphics or what I've seen of the lore, which is exactly what I've got against Wildstar, World of Warcraft, or SWTOR.

Very important things to me. Right above housing.

Sakiri

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

The problem with modern MMOs isn't the MMOs themselves. Its todays gamer, MOST of todays MMOer couldn't last 1 month in old school EQLive as they would be level 20 and level 65 is just a dream seeing that player walk by with the glowing sword.

No, I did it. Im out of college and have more important things to do than play a game like old school EQ.

Fleymark

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

ShADoW0s wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

The problem with modern MMOs is that "modern" encompasses the same time frame as "post 2004," the year the game that destroyed the genre released.

Since that festering turd dumbed everything down, attracted the masses, and put up the numbers that it did every game since has either tried to be like it and sucked or been infested by people who liked it and sucked. We now have an entire playerbase of people who think they are MMO players yet expect everything to be soloable and easy. They expect MMOs to be interactive movies where it's all about story and questing and you get everything handed to you just for showing up with the only required interaction with other players being chat. MMOs originated around the premise of people being able to do things together that they could not accomplish on their own. To these idiots that, the very point of MMOs, is called "forced grouping." LOL

And there hasn't been a truly good, much less great, MMO since as a result.

Mate how is any supposed to complete group content, which you so eagerly desire in this game, or any game of that matter, in 6 months time when all/most of the player base is at max level?

Questing is not supposed to be difficult or time consuming, its a story, its to develop your character and show the players the ropes and make them try new things along the way. Sure have some hard bosses, but it should NOT require grouping.

You can have hard group content, I really love that too, but that should only be end game stuff where there is a bunch of player to always run the content and keep it alive. Also if you are a true MMO player you would quickly work out that fighting trash mobs that do abnormal damgae and only know 2 attacks is no skill, which you seem to have alot of.

LOL See?

Yes, I see.

I see that you are passive aggressively insulting a man with a legitimate point because you feel compelled to defend something which failed to deliver many of those aspects that most people have come to expect and enjoy, which is why this game is hemorrhaging subscriptions only 3 months in.

Perhaps there is some tight-knit hardcore contingent that LOVE grindy, overly tuned games that punish you rather than entertain you. These are the "rush-to-cap" mashers that click through content and can't be bothered to actually READ anything, and then sit at level cap complaining about how there is no content and how much other people suck compared to their amazing elitist grind-leveling skills.

What this person you insult says is absolutely true. Questing is to develop your character and to develop the STORY behind your character. Leaving out the story for the sake of tedious grinding is unrealistic, not very entertaining, and makes your character feel like a pushover who got his lunch money stolen every day. You don't have to make a cheese-ball WoW clone with no challenge to have a complex story and a balanced end-game with meaningful rewards. They are NOT mutually exclusive.

The group content in a GOOD MMO should take the form of organized PVP (which this game completely fails at due to the lack of open world PVP phasing, for massive raids with powerful and unique loot that give you some sense of reward, which this game has none of whatsoever, and for other end-game content that is designed to be a challenge, which the tedious and over-tuned veteran 4-mans fail to deliver in a fun way.

It sounds like you just want to mash to level cap skipping all the text and play a hollow, forced-grouping whack-a-mole that makes you feel "elite" but everyone else thinks is empty, tedious, and unrewarding. No thanks. I'm not that masochistic.

Also, as far as "forced grouping" is concerned. Do you really look back on the days of people getting fired from their job because they were on crack to stay up until 4am with their "hardcore" EQ guilds to "beat the asians" with some sort of nostalgic fondness? Who wants to be limited in a PAID SUBSCRIPTION GAME to only be able to do content when all their tight-knit friends are online?

Honestly, who remembers people they randomly group up with in a game the next day, even if they ENJOY grouping with them? Especially with this stupid @AccountName system, all you end up with is unrecognizable account name spam logged in and out over and over as people dump all their junk to their banker alts until you finally empty your friends list because you never really play with these people anyway?

I do like a lot of ESO that is done right. Dolmens are fun, 1-50 was fun, the non-veteran dungeons were fun, even veteran leveling up to Veteran 5 has been fun. There is simply a lot missing and it is showing in peoples frustration on the forums.

But it is an industry problem as much as a problem with this game. Too many companies are trolling the forums of other games, trying to crank out an entire MMO based on the complaints of the last one, or some gimmick of the moment without investing in the core SUBSTANCE that makes these titles last.

That is what happens when money becomes your ONLY motivation.

Whatever you might think about WoW, it had deep, consistent, and compelling lore, which carried the faults of that game all the way through to Wrath, after which it fell apart due to forced multiculturalism and ridiculous gimmicks that made no sense to the genre like freaking Kung-Fu Panda and content built for 2-year-olds.

I'm not going to address all of this blather, save to say this...

Your characterization of group centric games is a grossly exaggerated and oversimplified, as is typical of the WoW apologists who expect every game since to cater to their need for boring soloable pablum. Those games were great with friends, they were great for making new friends and they were great going it alone and meeting people in pickup groups. Some are better than others, of course but that's what makes interacting in a populated world interesting, exciting and fun. The ONLY players who have ever had problems with this are those who either really ought to be playing single player games because it's better suited to their playtime/style or they have the social skills of drywall spackle or both. Yet, for some reason you people seem bent on making sure that those who do enjoy real MMOs can't have them as an option.

I don't have a problem with there being games available for people who want the kind of multiplayer-ish EZ-mode tripe you like. Choices are great and not every game needs to be for every player. I do have a problem with people like you infesting every game and expecting every game to be like that. You and those like you have destroyed a genre that was once the sum total, indeed the jewel, of decades of gaming before it.

The reason people lost their jobs, families, neglected their lives, etc playing the older titles wasn't because there was something wrong with the games, but because there was something wrong with those people and they didn't know when to say when. Because the games were THAT good. It was sad to hear these stories and nothing to celebrate, but the reason people don't lose themselves in MMOs anymore is they aren't worth losing oneself in anymore. Because they are all the dull, repetitive. completely uninspiring CRAP that you like, now. It would be like ruining ones life over a trip to McDonald's.

Spare me the sanctimonious BS. Just because you either don't like or can't hack it in games with real social interaction or challenge doesn't mean that every single game should be required to cater to your need for EZ-mode solo play.

I say again...LOL See?

Sakiri

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

Shanna wrote: »

The problem is, imo....people are drawn to the same classic elements over and over and over again. Take those elements away, and you lose people's interest. All of the classics involve a hero's struggle, which includes: a short stage of bliss, followed by iffy times (bliss ended too soon,) followed by near-death-experience, followed by redemption. In some form, an rpg needs to follow this formula.

The only way that I see this formula happening is if I transpose my short stage of bliss over my anticipation of the game, the iffy times as my 1-50, and my Vet stages as near-death.

As far as MMOs go, one of the best I've played was EVE. No "hero's struggle" at all in that one. You're character isn't made out to be a hero by the 'story' because there really is no set story. The content of the game is player/player interaction. The story is when one alliance loses half their systems to another alliance or when all the assets of a corp get stolen by a member that went rogue. Just for those who don't know, actual players make up those alliances.

Eve is a business simulator. Niche game. Hated it.

EvE has added to it's playerbase every year for over a decade now, growing from a few thousand players to half a million or more. While I agree it's a niche game, no other game on the market can claim that (that I know of).

Plus, it's only gotten better and better, expanding even more content and options. It's hardcore, though. Not for the soft-of-heart, or those of us with lives (like myself, who only plays it every few months or so).

I can only hope that ESO becomes that successful of a niche game. It would be amazing to play this 10 years from now as it's grown and progressed, but still held to it's roots as a AvAvA-focused, story-driven roleplaying game.

Raid tank from EQ2 played EvE.

All of his group had several accounts, and most of the "growth" was multiple accounts by a few.

That said, theyre happy with being a niche game and theyve been one since day 1. ESO has never been advertised as a niche game. It was supposed to be a mainstream game since day 1.

Comparing the two is foolish.

Sakiri

Doctoruniverse wrote: »

I know what the pvp in ESO isnt new either there was also something like that in DAoC and warhammer online.

To be honest I havent seen 1 new innovation where I went WOW!

Maybe the massive amount of bookcases. I never seen so many bookcases, but really who wants to stand around reading in a game.

I should show you my EQ2 house, with its meticulously placed books on shelves..

Sakiri

Fleymark wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

ShADoW0s wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

The problem with modern MMOs is that "modern" encompasses the same time frame as "post 2004," the year the game that destroyed the genre released.

Since that festering turd dumbed everything down, attracted the masses, and put up the numbers that it did every game since has either tried to be like it and sucked or been infested by people who liked it and sucked. We now have an entire playerbase of people who think they are MMO players yet expect everything to be soloable and easy. They expect MMOs to be interactive movies where it's all about story and questing and you get everything handed to you just for showing up with the only required interaction with other players being chat. MMOs originated around the premise of people being able to do things together that they could not accomplish on their own. To these idiots that, the very point of MMOs, is called "forced grouping." LOL

And there hasn't been a truly good, much less great, MMO since as a result.

Mate how is any supposed to complete group content, which you so eagerly desire in this game, or any game of that matter, in 6 months time when all/most of the player base is at max level?

Questing is not supposed to be difficult or time consuming, its a story, its to develop your character and show the players the ropes and make them try new things along the way. Sure have some hard bosses, but it should NOT require grouping.

You can have hard group content, I really love that too, but that should only be end game stuff where there is a bunch of player to always run the content and keep it alive. Also if you are a true MMO player you would quickly work out that fighting trash mobs that do abnormal damgae and only know 2 attacks is no skill, which you seem to have alot of.

LOL See?

Yes, I see.

I see that you are passive aggressively insulting a man with a legitimate point because you feel compelled to defend something which failed to deliver many of those aspects that most people have come to expect and enjoy, which is why this game is hemorrhaging subscriptions only 3 months in.

Perhaps there is some tight-knit hardcore contingent that LOVE grindy, overly tuned games that punish you rather than entertain you. These are the "rush-to-cap" mashers that click through content and can't be bothered to actually READ anything, and then sit at level cap complaining about how there is no content and how much other people suck compared to their amazing elitist grind-leveling skills.

What this person you insult says is absolutely true. Questing is to develop your character and to develop the STORY behind your character. Leaving out the story for the sake of tedious grinding is unrealistic, not very entertaining, and makes your character feel like a pushover who got his lunch money stolen every day. You don't have to make a cheese-ball WoW clone with no challenge to have a complex story and a balanced end-game with meaningful rewards. They are NOT mutually exclusive.

The group content in a GOOD MMO should take the form of organized PVP (which this game completely fails at due to the lack of open world PVP phasing, for massive raids with powerful and unique loot that give you some sense of reward, which this game has none of whatsoever, and for other end-game content that is designed to be a challenge, which the tedious and over-tuned veteran 4-mans fail to deliver in a fun way.

It sounds like you just want to mash to level cap skipping all the text and play a hollow, forced-grouping whack-a-mole that makes you feel "elite" but everyone else thinks is empty, tedious, and unrewarding. No thanks. I'm not that masochistic.

Also, as far as "forced grouping" is concerned. Do you really look back on the days of people getting fired from their job because they were on crack to stay up until 4am with their "hardcore" EQ guilds to "beat the asians" with some sort of nostalgic fondness? Who wants to be limited in a PAID SUBSCRIPTION GAME to only be able to do content when all their tight-knit friends are online?

Honestly, who remembers people they randomly group up with in a game the next day, even if they ENJOY grouping with them? Especially with this stupid @AccountName system, all you end up with is unrecognizable account name spam logged in and out over and over as people dump all their junk to their banker alts until you finally empty your friends list because you never really play with these people anyway?

I do like a lot of ESO that is done right. Dolmens are fun, 1-50 was fun, the non-veteran dungeons were fun, even veteran leveling up to Veteran 5 has been fun. There is simply a lot missing and it is showing in peoples frustration on the forums.

But it is an industry problem as much as a problem with this game. Too many companies are trolling the forums of other games, trying to crank out an entire MMO based on the complaints of the last one, or some gimmick of the moment without investing in the core SUBSTANCE that makes these titles last.

That is what happens when money becomes your ONLY motivation.

Whatever you might think about WoW, it had deep, consistent, and compelling lore, which carried the faults of that game all the way through to Wrath, after which it fell apart due to forced multiculturalism and ridiculous gimmicks that made no sense to the genre like freaking Kung-Fu Panda and content built for 2-year-olds.

I'm not going to address all of this blather, save to say this...

Your characterization of group centric games is a grossly exaggerated and oversimplified, as is typical of the WoW apologists who expect every game since to cater to their need for boring soloable pablum. Those games were great with friends, they were great for making new friends and they were great going it alone and meeting people in pickup groups. Some are better than others, of course but that's what makes interacting in a populated world interesting, exciting and fun. The ONLY players who have ever had problems with this are those who either really ought to be playing single player games because it's better suited to their playtime/style or they have the social skills of drywall spackle or both.

I don't have a problem with there being games available for people who want the kind of multiplayer-ish EZ-mode tripe you like. Choices are great and not every game needs to be for every player. I do have a problem with people like you infesting every game and expecting every game to be like that. You and those like you have destroyed a genre that was once the sum total, indeed the jewel, of decades of gaming before it.

The reason people lost their jobs, families, neglected their lives, etc playing the older titles wasn't because there was something wrong with the games, but because there was something wrong with those people and they didn't know when to say when. Because the games were THAT good. It was sad to hear these stories and nothing to celebrate, but the reason people don't lose themselves in MMOs anymore is they aren't worth losing oneself in anymore. Because they are all the dull, repetitive. completely uninspiring CRAP that you like, now. It would be like ruining ones life over a trip to McDonald's.

Spare me the sanctimonious BS.

I say again...LOL See?

Except ESO was never supposed to be a group centric game either.

Youre coming across as sanctimonious yourself.

Those group centric games are still made btw. They thrive in Asia.

Fleymark

Sakiri wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

Shanna wrote: »

The problem is, imo....people are drawn to the same classic elements over and over and over again. Take those elements away, and you lose people's interest. All of the classics involve a hero's struggle, which includes: a short stage of bliss, followed by iffy times (bliss ended too soon,) followed by near-death-experience, followed by redemption. In some form, an rpg needs to follow this formula.

The only way that I see this formula happening is if I transpose my short stage of bliss over my anticipation of the game, the iffy times as my 1-50, and my Vet stages as near-death.

As far as MMOs go, one of the best I've played was EVE. No "hero's struggle" at all in that one. You're character isn't made out to be a hero by the 'story' because there really is no set story. The content of the game is player/player interaction. The story is when one alliance loses half their systems to another alliance or when all the assets of a corp get stolen by a member that went rogue. Just for those who don't know, actual players make up those alliances.

Eve is a business simulator. Niche game. Hated it.

EvE has added to it's playerbase every year for over a decade now, growing from a few thousand players to half a million or more. While I agree it's a niche game, no other game on the market can claim that (that I know of).

Plus, it's only gotten better and better, expanding even more content and options. It's hardcore, though. Not for the soft-of-heart, or those of us with lives (like myself, who only plays it every few months or so).

I can only hope that ESO becomes that successful of a niche game. It would be amazing to play this 10 years from now as it's grown and progressed, but still held to it's roots as a AvAvA-focused, story-driven roleplaying game.

Raid tank from EQ2 played EvE.

All of his group had several accounts, and most of the "growth" was multiple accounts by a few.

That said, theyre happy with being a niche game and theyve been one since day 1. ESO has never been advertised as a niche game. It was supposed to be a mainstream game since day 1.

Comparing the two is foolish.

Especially considering there is nothing truly great or unique about this game. As there NEVER will be with these modern overglorified solo quest games.

Gameplay trumps all, in every game, in every era of gaming and multiplayer gameplay is what defines an MMO. I love the graphics and look of this game, for example, and the class system could prove to be what makes it a standout eventually, but there is nothing special about the gameplay in the grand scheme of MMOs. How could there be? It's a single player game.

Mablung

Sakiri wrote: »

Doctoruniverse wrote: »

I know what the pvp in ESO isnt new either there was also something like that in DAoC and warhammer online.

To be honest I havent seen 1 new innovation where I went WOW!

Maybe the massive amount of bookcases. I never seen so many bookcases, but really who wants to stand around reading in a game.

I should show you my EQ2 house, with its meticulously placed books on shelves..

EQ2 gets such a bad rap but I really liked the game.

GreySix

Sakiri wrote: »

Except ESO was never supposed to be a group centric game either.

Then the developers would have done better to release the game as a single-player title, vice trying to transmogrify it into an MMO.

mndfreeze

OP lost me at 'we'

DanteYoda

Gimme a game with more *** bag space

Cogo

1. There is no "we" in how any game "should" be like. Only personal expectations. Even if different numbers of people shares the same interests in something, there still are as many different expectations as the total sum of players in the world.

2. I may have misunderstood OPs statement, but if any MMO only should use anything that is known to work, and not ever use any creativity, work on changes/improvements on known mechanics/technology.

Then why are there millions of people, all over the world, who every day enjoy the MMO they are playing?


If any MMO would not come up with new ideas, new visions and evolve any known MMO. There would not exist any MMO. Or, the first MMO would be the right one, so we all would be playing Ultima Online, or even text based MUDs.

The statement that the problem is new ideas, new vision and progression in technology is so fundamentally wrong, that if this was true, there would be no games, internet, no computers......and the list is long what would not exist if it was not for new visions, creativity and basic evolution of current knowledge.


The reason for why there are different business models and always new visions is very well explained by this business person who works with Free-To-Play MMO games.

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/1vsez2/why_im_happy_eso_is_not_f2p_by_someone_who_works/

reggielee

geeze OP, mad much? here's a cookie.

I agree with most of your thoughts however rabid they were put. meh, eso is what it is, I think the glory days of mmos are long over. they are doing whatever they can to survive financially and that means putting content out there to garner the most subs, which is a little bit of everything and master of none

Sakiri

Mablung wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Doctoruniverse wrote: »

I know what the pvp in ESO isnt new either there was also something like that in DAoC and warhammer online.

To be honest I havent seen 1 new innovation where I went WOW!

Maybe the massive amount of bookcases. I never seen so many bookcases, but really who wants to stand around reading in a game.

I should show you my EQ2 house, with its meticulously placed books on shelves..

EQ2 gets such a bad rap but I really liked the game.

I did too until I burnt on raid or die and all the cool questlines relied on raiding to finish. My group/guild all quit because Drunder group zones were too hard to do without raid gear and our healer ended up with renal failure.

Keep thinking of going through the old dungeons for giggles though.

AinGeal

Fleymark wrote: »

I'm not going to address all of this blather, save to say this...

Your characterization of group centric games is a grossly exaggerated and oversimplified, as is typical of the WoW apologists who expect every game since to cater to their need for boring soloable pablum. Those games were great with friends, they were great for making new friends and they were great going it alone and meeting people in pickup groups. Some are better than others, of course but that's what makes interacting in a populated world interesting, exciting and fun. The ONLY players who have ever had problems with this are those who either really ought to be playing single player games because it's better suited to their playtime/style or they have the social skills of drywall spackle or both. Yet, for some reason you people seem bent on making sure that those who do enjoy real MMOs can't have them as an option.

I don't have a problem with there being games available for people who want the kind of multiplayer-ish EZ-mode tripe you like. Choices are great and not every game needs to be for every player. I do have a problem with people like you infesting every game and expecting every game to be like that. You and those like you have destroyed a genre that was once the sum total, indeed the jewel, of decades of gaming before it.

The reason people lost their jobs, families, neglected their lives, etc playing the older titles wasn't because there was something wrong with the games, but because there was something wrong with those people and they didn't know when to say when. Because the games were THAT good. It was sad to hear these stories and nothing to celebrate, but the reason people don't lose themselves in MMOs anymore is they aren't worth losing oneself in anymore. Because they are all the dull, repetitive. completely uninspiring CRAP that you like, now. It would be like ruining ones life over a trip to McDonald's.

Spare me the sanctimonious BS. Just because you either don't like or can't hack it in games with real social interaction or challenge doesn't mean that every single game should be required to cater to your need for EZ-mode solo play.

I say again...LOL See?

Putting aside the hypocrisy of your post, consider that developers can gather more intel about their game then just reading forum posts. They have the means and the capability to see what goes on inside their game. Things like population density which can tell them how many prefer pvp or pve, how many prefer grouping or soloing, etc., etc.

They talk with people, not just on fan forums but in person, face to face, on voice programs, in interviews, etc. etc.

Then there is the success of games and taking a comparative picture between success and what the game offers.

This all adds together to prove one thing. That if games are moving toward a certain way (soloable, story driven content instead of demanding a group just for trash mobs), it means that is what the MAJORITY of gamers want. So perhaps you should take a step back and consider that YOU ARE THE MINORITY HERE.

So spare US the "sanctimonious BS". Oh and before you go putting your foot into your mouth, I've played EVE for years and that is one of the most hard-core, unforgiving games out there. I'd be playing it now if I wasn't boycotting CCP for cancelling WoD Online.

Sakiri

AinGeal wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

I'm not going to address all of this blather, save to say this...

Your characterization of group centric games is a grossly exaggerated and oversimplified, as is typical of the WoW apologists who expect every game since to cater to their need for boring soloable pablum. Those games were great with friends, they were great for making new friends and they were great going it alone and meeting people in pickup groups. Some are better than others, of course but that's what makes interacting in a populated world interesting, exciting and fun. The ONLY players who have ever had problems with this are those who either really ought to be playing single player games because it's better suited to their playtime/style or they have the social skills of drywall spackle or both. Yet, for some reason you people seem bent on making sure that those who do enjoy real MMOs can't have them as an option.

I don't have a problem with there being games available for people who want the kind of multiplayer-ish EZ-mode tripe you like. Choices are great and not every game needs to be for every player. I do have a problem with people like you infesting every game and expecting every game to be like that. You and those like you have destroyed a genre that was once the sum total, indeed the jewel, of decades of gaming before it.

The reason people lost their jobs, families, neglected their lives, etc playing the older titles wasn't because there was something wrong with the games, but because there was something wrong with those people and they didn't know when to say when. Because the games were THAT good. It was sad to hear these stories and nothing to celebrate, but the reason people don't lose themselves in MMOs anymore is they aren't worth losing oneself in anymore. Because they are all the dull, repetitive. completely uninspiring CRAP that you like, now. It would be like ruining ones life over a trip to McDonald's.

Spare me the sanctimonious BS. Just because you either don't like or can't hack it in games with real social interaction or challenge doesn't mean that every single game should be required to cater to your need for EZ-mode solo play.

I say again...LOL See?

Putting aside the hypocrisy of your post, consider that developers can gather more intel about their game then just reading forum posts. They have the means and the capability to see what goes on inside their game. Things like population density which can tell them how many prefer pvp or pve, how many prefer grouping or soloing, etc., etc.

They talk with people, not just on fan forums but in person, face to face, on voice programs, in interviews, etc. etc.

Then there is the success of games and taking a comparative picture between success and what the game offers.

This all adds together to prove one thing. That if games are moving toward a certain way (soloable, story driven content instead of demanding a group just for trash mobs), it means that is what the MAJORITY of gamers want. So perhaps you should take a step back and consider that YOU ARE THE MINORITY HERE.

So spare US the "sanctimonious BS". Oh and before you go putting your foot into your mouth, I've played EVE for years and that is one of the most hard-core, unforgiving games out there. I'd be playing it now if I wasn't boycotting CCP for cancelling WoD Online.

Ive linked this site before, but I cant stop referencing it or how good it is.

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/

This isnt a small sample poll. This is a 75,000+ respondent survey analysis spanning a decade.

Why we play, how we play, what we want, and what demographic wants and why.

Why we quit, how happy we are. You name it, hes broken it down.

Take the results how you will, but true sandboxes are quite niche and not the big thing some think they should be.

Cogo

Sakiri wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Doctoruniverse wrote: »

I know what the pvp in ESO isnt new either there was also something like that in DAoC and warhammer online.

To be honest I havent seen 1 new innovation where I went WOW!

Maybe the massive amount of bookcases. I never seen so many bookcases, but really who wants to stand around reading in a game.

I should show you my EQ2 house, with its meticulously placed books on shelves..

EQ2 gets such a bad rap but I really liked the game.

I did too until I burnt on raid or die and all the cool questlines relied on raiding to finish. My group/guild all quit because Drunder group zones were too hard to do without raid gear and our healer ended up with renal failure.

Keep thinking of going through the old dungeons for giggles though.

I too played EQ2. I agree fully that it had/have a lot of great things. Your house, trades kills, the raids, classes, all. Even the economy system I liked (Being 100% against any sort of AH in ESO)

My problem and why I didn't play EQ2 for very long, was that I and a lot of us from Everquest. Who played EQ and still today, LOVE it and call it the best MMO made.

Our problem was, we expected Everquest 2. It was not Everquest. No way near even.

Looking back, I see I lost the experience in enjoying EQ2, just because I expected EQ.

If EQ2 was called something different, made by another company, and I did some research about the game first and not just jump in, expecting EQ with upgrades and better graphics......I more then likely would had years in EQ2 on my belt. Sadly, after a few months, I lost interest. Because it was not everquest.


Me and a bunch of others did the exact same mistake with Vanguard. Loved it at first. Played for a few months, but the lack of EQ features and our expectations of them.....made us stop playing that game.

Shaun98ca2

Sakiri wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

The problem with modern MMOs isn't the MMOs themselves. Its todays gamer, MOST of todays MMOer couldn't last 1 month in old school EQLive as they would be level 20 and level 65 is just a dream seeing that player walk by with the glowing sword.

No, I did it. Im out of college and have more important things to do than play a game like old school EQ.

Which is the point todays MMOer NEEDS a new kind of MMO, with more conveniences and quicker jump in and play than what was seen back in EQLives prime.

Jeremy

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Everyone is trying WAY too hard for some new gimmick that ALWAYS ends up failing miserably, and more and more they completely neglect the core formula that makes these games desirable in the process.

Please, for the love of GOD! STOP trying to create the next big PVP gimmick! STOP trying to create the next ridiculously cheeseball PVE gimmick!

We don't give a flying arse about justice or multiculturalism or any of the other half-brained BS you devs are trying to cram down our damn throat.

We want group content that is FUN and rewarding, not POINTLESS TEDIUM that the most hardcore eastern grinders wouldn't stick with.

We want a dungeon finder that groups us with similarly geared and experienced players, not a "lfg" spam channel where you get hooked up with one maddeningly fail-pug after another.

We want core mechanics that make our class choice feel meaningful, and LORE that ties into and reinforces this.

We want agency and a sense of purpose.

We want progression and a sense of our actions having some effect on the world.

We want our efforts to make us feel like we have accomplished something more than a popup that lets us know we've unlocked the "killed 10 skeevers" achievement.

We want to look unique. We want to feel powerful.

We want to be a part of something that is fun and worth doing.

I will pay to visit a carnival. I will NOT pay to be dragged behind a tent and *** by an elitist clown who thinks he's the next big thing to hit the gaming industry.

Pull your head out and follow the formula FIRST gaming industry. You're letting us all down!

I agree with you that this game needs a better group-finding mechanism. But I don't really think that's a fair criticism of modern MMORPGs in general. That's more of a specific failing of this game. And I hope that's on their short list of things to improve.

Far as your other criticisms, I think Elder Scrolls does a good job at giving you the option to make your character unique and powerful. I also think the quests are well written and give plenty of purpose. There is also a lot of meaningful tasks to accomplish in every region I have explored. So I'm having a hard time relating to you on most of your other complaints. Because I think Elder Scrolls does a good job in these areas and breaks significantly from modern trends.

Fleymark

AinGeal wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

I'm not going to address all of this blather, save to say this...

Your characterization of group centric games is a grossly exaggerated and oversimplified, as is typical of the WoW apologists who expect every game since to cater to their need for boring soloable pablum. Those games were great with friends, they were great for making new friends and they were great going it alone and meeting people in pickup groups. Some are better than others, of course but that's what makes interacting in a populated world interesting, exciting and fun. The ONLY players who have ever had problems with this are those who either really ought to be playing single player games because it's better suited to their playtime/style or they have the social skills of drywall spackle or both. Yet, for some reason you people seem bent on making sure that those who do enjoy real MMOs can't have them as an option.

I don't have a problem with there being games available for people who want the kind of multiplayer-ish EZ-mode tripe you like. Choices are great and not every game needs to be for every player. I do have a problem with people like you infesting every game and expecting every game to be like that. You and those like you have destroyed a genre that was once the sum total, indeed the jewel, of decades of gaming before it.

The reason people lost their jobs, families, neglected their lives, etc playing the older titles wasn't because there was something wrong with the games, but because there was something wrong with those people and they didn't know when to say when. Because the games were THAT good. It was sad to hear these stories and nothing to celebrate, but the reason people don't lose themselves in MMOs anymore is they aren't worth losing oneself in anymore. Because they are all the dull, repetitive. completely uninspiring CRAP that you like, now. It would be like ruining ones life over a trip to McDonald's.

Spare me the sanctimonious BS. Just because you either don't like or can't hack it in games with real social interaction or challenge doesn't mean that every single game should be required to cater to your need for EZ-mode solo play.

I say again...LOL See?

Putting aside the hypocrisy of your post, consider that developers can gather more intel about their game then just reading forum posts. They have the means and the capability to see what goes on inside their game. Things like population density which can tell them how many prefer pvp or pve, how many prefer grouping or soloing, etc., etc.

They talk with people, not just on fan forums but in person, face to face, on voice programs, in interviews, etc. etc.

Then there is the success of games and taking a comparative picture between success and what the game offers.

This all adds together to prove one thing. That if games are moving toward a certain way (soloable, story driven content instead of demanding a group just for trash mobs), it means that is what the MAJORITY of gamers want. So perhaps you should take a step back and consider that YOU ARE THE MINORITY HERE.

So spare US the "sanctimonious BS". Oh and before you go putting your foot into your mouth, I've played EVE for years and that is one of the most hard-core, unforgiving games out there. I'd be playing it now if I wasn't boycotting CCP for cancelling WoD Online.

There is exactly nothing hypocritical about anything I've posted in this thread.

And I never said I wasn't in the minority. I know am. Pretty much my entire point, in fact. Appealing to the masses is what has ruined this genre of games. Actually it has ruined a lot about gaming in general.

McDonald's sells a lot of hamburgers. Doesn't mean it's any good.

AinGeal

Fleymark wrote: »

There is exactly nothing hypocritical about anything I've posted in this thread.

And I never said I wasn't in the minority. I know am. Pretty much my entire point, in fact. Appealing to the masses is what has ruined this genre of games. Actually it has ruined a lot about gaming in general.

McDonald's sells a lot of hamburgers. Doesn't mean it's any good.

Calling the person you quoted out by saying "your characterization of group centric games is grossly exaggerated and oversimplified" and yet you did the same thing with regard to solo centric games. Yeah, I'd certainly call that hypocritical. If that wasn't enough, how about your statement "spare me the sanctimonious BS" which is immediately followed by "just because you either don't like or can't hack it in games with real social interaction or challenge".

Appealing to a minority would be considered ruining the genre. As it results in the majority not like/wanting what's available. Appealing to the majority is not ruining anything. It's proper. You can't please everyone so you do your best to please as many as possible. That's not ruining anything.