Templar stealth nerf #2, the pattern continues

Axer

Yet another templar stealth nerf:

Remembrance Duration on Live now:
8.5 seconds. (Half healing, half damage reduction) - Both enough to keep you alive through the most powerful raid boss assaults.

Remembrance on PTS:
4 seconds.

Over a 50% nerf to the weakest class most useful ultimate.

Here is a recent quote from our friendly producer/lead designer:

recent road ahead wrote:

Also, I sincerely apologize for not having the Biting Jabs change documented in a patch note when Update 1 went live. This was an oversight, not a nefarious omission by design. We have clearly documented many other ability nerfs in the past—we just missed this one in the massive Update 1 patch.

Oh so sincere. Yet you do it again the very next update.

Thanks ZO.

Here is the note they put in about remembrance, essentially a wrong/very unclear note:
Remembrance (Rite of Passage morph): The damage reduction buff now perists for the duration of the channel. The tooltip has been updated to reflect this.

Previous duration was 8.5 seconds. It hardly was updated to match the duration, the duration was severely nerfed.

ZO if you want to "clearly document" changes, it should read:

Remembrance (Rite of Passage morph): The total duration of this ability has been reduced from 8.5 seconds to 4 seconds. The damage reduction buff now persists for the duration of the channel instead of being applied afterwards. The tooltip has been updated to reflect this. All players with this ability please be sure to respec since it's now inferior to the other morph.

dragnier

They are just moving the effect (actually, you do lose 0.5 sec of damage reduction). Instead of being applied after the heal ends, it is in effect during the heal, similar to other Ultimates like your Solar Prison which does damage and damage reduction at the same time.

However, combining damage reduction and healing is still better than simple healing for an extra 2 seconds, IMHO.

Although I can see where you are coming from, too. They needed to change the overall duration for both abilities to bring them more in line. This one should probably be 6 sec like the other one is now and increase the other one further to 8 sec.

Mystborn

This may actually be a bug fix rather than a nerf.

The current tooltip of Remembrance says:

Heals nearby allies for X every 0.5 seconds for 4 seconds. When effect ends, allies take 20% less damage for 4 seconds. You cannot move while channeling this ability.

The 20% less damage was only ever supposed to apply for 4 seconds, the 4 seconds immediately following the 4 seconds of healing.

Yes you're right it was bugged so that we got the 20% reduced damage taken effect throughout the 4s channel and for the additional 4 seconds (8s total) but I think this was clearly a bug as it does not match the tooltip.

Again the patchnotes could have been clearer and more explicit - something along the lines of the OP's suggestion (without that last facetious sentence) would have been great and much more informative.

I'm honestly not sure which morph is better now (which isn't a bad thing, per se) but the bigger concern is whether after this nerf/change either Morph beats out Replenishing Barrier from the AvA support line.

There is no point giving Templars dedicated healing abilities if the generic abilities open to everyone are not only better for Templars, but better utilised by the other classes because they have abilities (active/passive) that synergise with the generic options rather than our Templar specific options.

Example:

If Replenishing Barrier is better than the Rite of Passage Morphs then we lose the benefit of Focused Healing, Mending, and Light Weaver - but a Sorc still gets the benefit of Power Stone.

If Healing Springs is better than Lingering Ritual then we lose out on the benefit of Focused Healing, Mending, and Light Weaver - but a Sorc still gets the benefit of Power Surge.

ARtChi

Whereas I can understand this change from a PvP point of view (where remembrance sucks hard), I totally don't understand it from a PvE one.

On long burst phases, remembrance rotation is the key to kill most bosses in trials.
Nerfing our ultimate duration seems a huge nerf to PvE...

With my casual guild, we just managed to reach last boss of AA trial (we are not all Min/maxers). We didn't even kill it yet. Nerfing remembrance duration will just kill the strategy we made one month to set up...

What do you think will happen, when our guild won't be able to reach 4th boss anymore because of this nerf ?
People will just stop coming to raids... We are not all PGM stuffed in light armor and destro staff. For us trial is really hard. Yet with our un-optimised guild we manage to go through this.

Please ZOS, try to think of the consequences of your changes

NerfEverything

Jesus *** you Zen. The 9 templars that are still playing this game are outraged!

Axer

Drag and myst:
You're both wrong.

I'm betting a ton neither of you play templars with it leveled up. So please stop spreading false information. The duration I listed is 100% correct for it maxed out. Maybe you have a level 10 templar or something, it scales up.

It lasts 8.5 seconds on live.
It's being nerfed to 4 seconds. It's not complicated like myst constantly tries to make things. It's a pretty simple and clear cut nerf that was not clearly explained.

There is no pve situation in the game where the massive healing it provides is not enough tho survive. So adding DR ontop of that is in no way a buff, it's fluff. Maybe in pvp you can manage to take that kind of damage sure, but if your taking that kind of damage, your either screwed by superior numbers, or just bad at pvp. And there are a of better alternatives in pvp, most notably barrier.

And no morph of this ability is overpowered. If anything it's very underpowered, as it's much weaker then every other classes defensive ultimate.

EG:
NBs:
30% DR for entire group for 17 seconds. Not to mention 70% for hte NB himselve and the highest DPS ult in the game. 17 freaking seconds and we can't have 20% for 8.5?

DK:
20% DR, +20% dmg for self, -50% healing for enemies, MASSIVE DoT, Snares, cookes french fries, does your laundry, etc. Something this insanely powerful must last shorter then remembrance ? Nope. 17 seconds.

Sorc:
Negate magic/Supression field is straight up the strongest CC in the game, and also servers strong utlity with a dispel ability (extremely useful in trials), massive boost to everyones spell resistance.. And yea you guessed it: Lasts longer then remembrance: 9.5 seconds.

driosketch

You should probably /bug that before freaking out. Especially if the effect and the tooltip on the PTS don't match up.

Axer

driosketch wrote: »

You should probably /bug that before freaking out. Especially if the effect and the tooltip on the PTS don't match up.

They do match up.

And why don't you /bug it. I don't use such garbage tools personally. Forums are superior for bug reports. Zero communication 1 way, zero transparency ingame tools are nonesense that should not exist.

NerfEverything

@Axer is 100% correct.
And this is a huge nerf. The only ultimate in the templar class that was worth slotting (sometimes), gets cut in half. Not a slight tweak, but a crippling nerf, making the skill completely useless.

I don't know what the [snip] is going on over there at Zen, but these guys keep [snip] up massively when it comes to templars.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Mystborn

Axer wrote: »

Drag and myst:
You're both wrong.

I'm betting a ton neither of you play templars with it leveled up. So please stop spreading false information. The duration I listed is 100% correct for it maxed out. Maybe you have a level 10 templar or something, it scales up.

It lasts 8.5 seconds on live.
It's being nerfed to 4 seconds. It's not complicated like myst constantly tries to make things. It's a pretty simple and clear cut nerf that was not clearly explained.

There is no pve situation in the game where the massive healing it provides is not enough tho survive. So adding DR ontop of that is in no way a buff, it's fluff. Maybe in pvp you can manage to take that kind of damage sure, but if your taking that kind of damage, your either screwed by superior numbers, or just bad at pvp. And there are a of better alternatives in pvp, most notably barrier.

And no morph of this ability is overpowered. If anything it's very underpowered, as it's much weaker then every other classes defensive ultimate.

Actually Axer, I am a Templar - and yes I have the Remembrance Morph leveled all the way up to Rank 4. What part of my post did you feel was wrong?

Were you not aware that currently on Live the ability is bugged and gives you the 20% damage reduction for the entire duration of the channel *plus* the following 4 seconds? Perhaps you don't play a Templar with it leveled all the way up?

dragnier

Axer wrote: »

Drag and myst:
You're both wrong.

I'm betting a ton neither of you play templars with it leveled up. So please stop spreading false information. The duration I listed is 100% correct for it maxed out. Maybe you have a level 10 templar or something, it scales up.

It lasts 8.5 seconds on live.
It's being nerfed to 4 seconds. It's not complicated like myst constantly tries to make things. It's a pretty simple and clear cut nerf that was not clearly explained.

There is no pve situation in the game where the massive healing it provides is not enough tho survive. So adding DR ontop of that is in no way a buff, it's fluff. Maybe in pvp you can manage to take that kind of damage sure, but if your taking that kind of damage, your either screwed by superior numbers, or just bad at pvp. And there are a of better alternatives in pvp, most notably barrier.

And no morph of this ability is overpowered. If anything it's very underpowered, as it's much weaker then every other classes defensive ultimate.

EG:
NBs:
30% DR for entire group for 17 seconds. Not to mention 70% for hte NB himselve and the highest DPS ult in the game. 17 freaking seconds and we can't have 20% for 8.5?

DK:
20% DR, +20% dmg for self, -50% healing for enemies, MASSIVE DoT, Snares, cookes french fries, does your laundry, etc. Something this insanely powerful must last shorter then remembrance ? Nope. 17 seconds.

Sorc:
Negate magic/Supression field is straight up the strongest CC in the game, and also servers strong utlity with a dispel ability (extremely useful in trials), massive boost to everyones spell resistance.. And yea you guessed it: Lasts longer then remembrance: 9.5 seconds.

You forgot your own other Ultimate choice as a Templar:

Nova:

Enemies in the area deal 30% less damage and take damage every sec for 9.6 sec while allowing a synergy to be used causing more damage and stun to enemiew within the area. Morph choices add either a bigger dmg synergy or a 50% snare to enemies within the area.


Also:

The dmg reduction for the NB is 60% not 70%.

Suppression Field/Negate Magic lasts 11.4 sec not 9.5 sec.

Remembrance also grants you immunity to enemy CC effects for the duration because it roots you... meaning they can't knockback or interrupt you either.

Solar Prison (morph of Nova) deals more damage per sec than Banner of Might, just doesn't have as long of a duration.

Are the Templar Ultimate choices on par with the other classes? I don't believe so.

Is this a "stealth nerf"? Maybe, but seems more like a bug fix because:

Mystborn wrote: »

Actually Axer, I am a Templar - and yes I have the Remembrance Morph leveled all the way up to Rank 4. What part of my post did you feel was wrong?

Were you not aware that currently on Live the ability is bugged and gives you the 20% damage reduction for the entire duration of the channel *plus* the following 4 seconds? Perhaps you don't play a Templar with it leveled all the way up?

Mystborn

dragnier wrote: »

You forgot your own other Ultimate choice as a Templar:

Nova:

Enemies in the area deal 30% less damage and take damage every sec for 9.6 sec while allowing a synergy to be used causing more damage and stun to enemiew within the area. Morph choices add either a bigger dmg synergy or a 50% snare to enemies within the area.

Nova is 300 Ultimate though and to be honest the "click to place" functionality makes it awkward to use at times, I wish there was a "smart cast" option that could be turned on for GTAOE abilities.

Axer

Whats wrong:
You agree with my topic overall, yet you argue nonesense for no reason.

If you agree with a topic, maybe press the agree button in the post and post "I agree"

there no need for walls of nonesense text to complicate a simple issue.

EG: Stop trolling.

driosketch

Mystborn wrote: »

dragnier wrote: »

You forgot your own other Ultimate choice as a Templar:

Nova:

Enemies in the area deal 30% less damage and take damage every sec for 9.6 sec while allowing a synergy to be used causing more damage and stun to enemiew within the area. Morph choices add either a bigger dmg synergy or a 50% snare to enemies within the area.

Nova is 300 Ultimate though and to be honest the "click to place" functionality makes it awkward to use at times, I wish there was a "smart cast" option that could be turned on for GTAOE abilities.

I like the ability to be able to select its location at range. It's still my goto ultimate when running quests, and generates fast enough between quest points to still be useful in the big fights. The part that tends to screw me over is the bug that sometimes resets your ultimate during loading screens, but that's a cross class issue.

galiumb16_ESO

Mystborn wrote: »

Nova is 300 Ultimate though and to be honest the "click to place" functionality makes it awkward to use at times, I wish there was a "smart cast" option that could be turned on for GTAOE abilities.

Not to mention some times if feels like it has to drop from orbit before it will land.

Mystborn

driosketch wrote: »

Mystborn wrote: »

dragnier wrote: »

You forgot your own other Ultimate choice as a Templar:

Nova:

Enemies in the area deal 30% less damage and take damage every sec for 9.6 sec while allowing a synergy to be used causing more damage and stun to enemiew within the area. Morph choices add either a bigger dmg synergy or a 50% snare to enemies within the area.

Nova is 300 Ultimate though and to be honest the "click to place" functionality makes it awkward to use at times, I wish there was a "smart cast" option that could be turned on for GTAOE abilities.

I like the ability to be able to select its location at range. It's still my goto ultimate when running quests, and generates fast enough between quest points to still be useful in the big fights. The part that tends to screw me over is the bug that sometimes resets your ultimate during loading screens, but that's a cross class issue.

What I mean is that in some games you could choose to "smart cast" your GTAOE abilities where basically when you pressed your button the template would appear and when you released the button it would cast at that location. It allows for very quick placement of GTAOE effects - if you know where you want them.

galiumb16_ESO

could just do smart cast with a macro

ShedsHisTail

It's not a Stealth Nerf until it goes live without mention.
PTS doesn't count, they shift all kinds of numbers all over the place when testing and don't always mention everything.

If it gets changed in the Live patch and gets no mention in the Live Patch notes, then you can cry "stealth nerf."

NerfEverything

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

It's not a Stealth Nerf until it goes live without mention.
PTS doesn't count, they shift all kinds of numbers all over the place when testing and don't always mention everything.

If it gets changed in the Live patch and gets no mention in the Live Patch notes, then you can cry "stealth nerf."

You'll have to forgive templars for being a little bitter. If you don't remember, the last time this happened, it did go live, with a damn 1.5 second GLOBAL COOLDOWN in a game where there are no global cooldowns.

driosketch

NerfEverything wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

It's not a Stealth Nerf until it goes live without mention.
PTS doesn't count, they shift all kinds of numbers all over the place when testing and don't always mention everything.

If it gets changed in the Live patch and gets no mention in the Live Patch notes, then you can cry "stealth nerf."

You'll have to forgive templars for being a little bitter. If you don't remember, the last time this happened, it did go live, with a damn 1.5 second GLOBAL COOLDOWN in a game where there are no global cooldowns.

Well try not to be so bitter. I actually brought PS back into my skill bar after that nerf went live, even spent a skill point for Bitting Jabs, because of all the noise people were making.

I feel like being a Templar is about spitting in the face of convention.

Who else still plays a Templar and doesn't at least partially have this mindset? Just me? Well alright.

PikkonMG

Templar's suck, plain and simple. It's pretty sad when in PvP my main attack for DPS is Blazing Shield.

Ser Lobo

Axer wrote: »

And why don't you /bug it. I don't use such garbage tools personally. Forums are superior for bug reports. Zero communication 1 way, zero transparency ingame tools are nonesense that should not exist.

I see. No need to pay attention to someone who refuses to use the legitimate tools he's given.

Even if I WOULD have supported your argument, I don't now.

Axer

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

And why don't you /bug it. I don't use such garbage tools personally. Forums are superior for bug reports. Zero communication 1 way, zero transparency ingame tools are nonesense that should not exist.

I see. No need to pay attention to someone who refuses to use the legitimate tools he's given.

Even if I WOULD have supported your argument, I don't now.

For something to be legit, there has to be evidence it actually works.

You have none.

For all I know, all reports sent via that tool go strait into the recycle bin.

Legitimacy on such a topic needs to be earned.

And for it to be earned in my mind, they should be paying people to submit the reports. I'm not being paid.

Custos91

PikkonMG wrote: »

Templar's suck, plain and simple. It's pretty sad when in PvP my main attack for DPS is Blazing Shield.

No, it just proves how stupid other players can be xD

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO

WTF???? Guys you should read before make threads like this........

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Remembrance (Rite of Passage morph): The damage reduction buff now perists for the duration of the channel. The tooltip has been updated to reflect this.

Patch 1.2.0:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/106452/pts-patch-notes-v1-2-0/p1

Axer

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

WTF???? Guys you should read before make threads like this........

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Remembrance (Rite of Passage morph): The damage reduction buff now perists for the duration of the channel. The tooltip has been updated to reflect this.

Quote from the OP:

The first post of the thread wrote:

Remembrance (Rite of Passage morph): The damage reduction buff now perists for the duration of the channel. The tooltip has been updated to reflect this.

And we are the ones who should read?

....

Ethyem

Axer, can you please name duration of Rite of Passage? Well, why do you need it, it's already morphed, right? But what if i tell you it's 4 seconds? Other breaking news are that other morph (i know you don't care about it, but stiil) gives +2 seconds to duration of chanelling. And in result on live Practiced Incantation (special duration morph you see) lasts 6 seconds. On the other hand Rite of Passage (that doesn't have any +duration) lasts 8 seconds. Everything is working as intended for you, i presume?
Almost no one uses it (i mean in trials or in large scale AvA, don't know about small scale though) after amount of its targets was reduced to 6 anyway, so what's the big deal? It's TESO, every class here doesn't have much useful class abilities.

Axer

Ethyem wrote: »

Axer, can you please name duration of Rite of Passage? Well, why do you need it, it's already morphed, right? But what if i tell you it's 4 seconds? Other breaking news are that other morph (i know you don't care about it, but stiil) gives +2 seconds to duration of chanelling. And in result on live Practiced Incantation (special duration morph you see) lasts 6 seconds. On the other hand Rite of Passage (that doesn't have any +duration) lasts 8 seconds. Everything is working as intended for you, i presume?
Almost no one uses it (i mean in trials or in large scale AvA, don't know about small scale though) after amount of its targets was reduced to 6 anyway, so what's the big deal? It's TESO, every class here doesn't have much useful class abilities.

????????????????

None of this makes any sense. Only legible thing I can see is a wrong note about pvp: Support ultimates continue to hit 12+ targets post target nerf. They are ULTRA useful in pvp.

Whats with this thread and so many replies with people who never read a single word of it. Seems to attract a lot.

Axer

And yea guys:
Release note patch notes are up:
The plain wrong/vague note remains.

EG: Another stealth nerf to templars,

And this is in a update that seposedly is meant to buff templars.

Makes zero sense. What is wrong with ZO.. They claim to buff us, yet every update we get stealth nerfs.

Ethyem

Again.

Base duration of unmorphed Remembrance (and it is Rite of passage) is 4 (four) second.

Remembrance morph DOES NOT give more duration compared to basic skill.

Therefore it's duration should be 4 seconds.

Where does this logic flaw? Point it please.

And number of targets affected by templar healing ultimate (regardless of morph) was reduced and is now 6 - you can see it in addons numbers, you can see it by your own eyes in Aetherian Archive at last boss by having one (only one ofc) of your templars to use healing ultimate, without having Veil of blades or Nova on boss at the moment.

Axer

Ethyem wrote: »

Again.

Base duration of unmorphed Remembrance (and it is Rite of passage) is 4 (four) second.

Remembrance morph DOES NOT give more duration compared to basic skill.

Therefore it's duration should be 4 seconds.

Where does this logic flaw? Point it please.

And number of targets affected by templar healing ultimate (regardless of morph) was reduced and is now 6 - you can see it in addons numbers, you can see it by your own eyes in Aetherian Archive at last boss by having one (only one ofc) of your templars to use healing ultimate, without having Veil of blades or Nova on boss at the moment.

Plain and simply wrong.

Why are you even posting such nonesense? What does it gain at this point? You clearly don't play a templar with remembrance since you have no idea how it works, so why bother?

Just a troll I guess. No further replies you to, don't reply to trolls.

Remembrance I lasts 5.5 seconds. 4 seconds of healing of 1.5 seconds of damage reduction.
Remembrance II lasts 6.5 seconds. 4 seconds of healing of 2.5 seconds of damage reduction.
Remembrance III lasts 7.5 seconds. 4 seconds of healing of 3.5 seconds of damage reduction.
Remembrance IV lasts 8.5 seconds. 4 seconds of healing of 4.5 seconds of damage reduction.

These are simple facts any and every templar that has bothered to get the skill recently knows.