Games: Then vs Now

Anrik

Anyone else remember a point in your past where you bought a game, played it part way and decided you didn't like it so you put the controller down. End of story. You didn't send hateful messages to the games developer telling them that aside from the graphics everything about the game, it's design and the dream of the game they had sucks. That they need to change it all, just to make you happy.

Donky Kong Country (SNES) did that for me. I still wish I had picked up Final Fantasy 3 in the store that day instead.

Electus

I loved Donkey Kong Country!

Hilgara

Yes

I can also remember a time when a game had to work out of the box because not everyone had internet. Ok so they weren't as complex but they were still pushing the envelope of what was possible.

Game developers are becoming lazy and relying on our patients to allow them to release half build games. This is happening more and more. People pay a premium price for a game and its in the bargain bin by the time they have fixed it to the point it is playable

Spryt

Only reason people didn't complain was beacuse writing a physical letter to the publisher was too much of a hassle.

And in most cases it would probobly be ignored as there would be nothing they could/wanted do about it if you didnt like the game as it was released as a finsihed product and they already had your money.

With the Internet you can get live feedback and actually make the game better (or worse) depending on that feedback. That is a good thing imo.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Anrik wrote: »

Anyone else remember a point in your past where you bought a game, played it part way and decided you didn't like it so you put the controller down. End of story. You didn't send hateful messages to the games developer telling them that aside from the graphics everything about the game, it's design and the dream of the game they had sucks.

If we took that path with our disatisfaction with ESO it would now be a closed-down game.

Hilgara

Spryt wrote: »

Only reason people didn't complain was beacuse writing a physical letter to the publisher was too much of a hassle.

And in most cases it would probobly be ignored as there would be nothing they could/wanted do about it if you didnt like the game as it was released as a finsihed product and they already had your money.

With the Internet you can get live feedback and actually make the game better (or worse) depending on that feedback. That is a good thing imo.

No believe it or not games DID actually work out of the box back then. I know I almost played them all

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Hilgara wrote: »

I can also remember a time when a game had to work out of the box because not everyone had internet. Ok so they weren't as complex but they were still pushing the envelope of what was possible.

Oh yes, the Internet was the biggest blow to software QA ever, it meant the release broken, patch later maybe attitude now prevails.

ESO was clearly not ready for release for at least 3 months but ZOS took the attitude the players would put up with game-breaking bugs and tolerate umpteen patches being needed to fix it. Had this be in the pre-Internet era .. and yes, of course I realise large-scale on-line games pre-internet were impossible .. and the game was released in the state it was in ZOS would be out of business by now.

Yakidafi

I also remember that reviews of games were important, now you can look at any video on the internet and decide for yourself

Carnagan

Hilgara wrote: »

I can also remember a time when a game had to work out of the box because not everyone had internet. Ok so they weren't as complex but they were still pushing the envelope of what was possible.

Really?

Seriously, when was that? Because I don't ever recall that being the case. Usually if there was a bug you had to write into the company to have them send you the patch physically, otherwise you were SOL.

Frankly, the Elder Scrolls series has NEVER been a stable experience. It's because of the scope that the games try to cover. Even back when games "had to work out of the box". If anything, they were worse then than now.

It isn't laziness, it's complexity. Code today is far more complex then it was back then, and code that works fine in an MMO for 100,000 people might bug out with 200,000 people. It's impossible to tell until the game goes live, and changing something to fix that bug can have an effect in some other system.

Spryt

Hilgara wrote: »

No believe it or not games DID actually work out of the box back then. I know I almost played them all

Never said games didnt work. Usually they did as most games had a lot simpler systems compared to what now days gamers demand. Go forward, eat on mushroom, jump on turtle, game over.

You can still not like a fully functional game and feel you "NEED" to give feedback on it. :P

Spryt

2x post

Anrik

My point was that if people didn't like the game then, they left it alone. Take ESO now, people continuously come on the forums and bash it saying how horrible it is, yet they keep playing it. If you don't like that stamina is weaker then magicka, leave the game. Thats like me complaing that McDonalds makes me fat, while I'm in McDonalds... eating 3 double quarter pounders.

Dayv

OP, do you see any middle ground between being hateful and just abandoning without feedback.

I think the makers of donkey Kong country would have loved to have had the level of feedback that ESO gets. Knowing what your potential customers do and don't like is some of the most precious information a company can have.

steveb16_ESO46

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

ESO was clearly not ready for release for at least 3 months but ZOS took the attitude the players would put up with game-breaking bugs and tolerate umpteen patches being needed to fix it. Had this be in the pre-Internet era .. and yes, of course I realise large-scale on-line games pre-internet were impossible .. and the game was released in the state it was in ZOS would be out of business by now.

If a company does this, which Zen did, then regardless of whether such shoddy practices are par for the industry course, they have to expect to get kicked for it.

Especially as they made so much noise about how polished and lag free the launch was going to be. FTP and you could get away with it but a big ticket price and a sub means people expect better.

In The Olden Days customers would swamp magazines with complaints. also in the first few years magazines were much better at calling a spade a spade in the first place.

Games, no matter how big, could get shocking reviews.

steveb16_ESO46

Yakidafi wrote: »

I also remember that reviews of games were important, now you can look at any video on the internet and decide for yourself

Very true. I did that a lot for ESO and even though I won't be extending my sub it has been as much fun as it looked during the main faction story.

Anrik

Dayv wrote: »

OP, do you see any middle ground between being hateful and just abandoning without feedback.

I think the makers of donkey Kong country would have loved to have had the level of feedback that ESO gets. Knowing what your potential customers do and don't like is some of the most precious information a company can have.

Or, or... or. It could be that I just didn't like the game and didn't feel like I should be a special snowflake and make them change the entire thing to suit my needs and wants. Like sports games, I don't like them, but I had to buy a few and try them out to realize that I don't. I didn't keep buying every one that came out and then complained that it wasn't the style of game I liked.

Omnevolus

Anrik wrote: »

Anyone else remember a point in your past where you bought a game, played it part way and decided you didn't like it so you put the controller down. End of story. You didn't send hateful messages to the games developer telling them that aside from the graphics everything about the game, it's design and the dream of the game they had sucks. That they need to change it all, just to make you happy.

Donky Kong Country (SNES) did that for me. I still wish I had picked up Final Fantasy 3 in the store that day instead.

Sure, plenty of memories like that. Thankfully, ESO will always be a game I loved, despite everything, that I played for a very long and thoroughly enjoyable time.

Cybrdroyd

People feel entitled to rage on the forums because they are allowed to and no one stops them. Like if someone said to my face some of the things people say on forums, I'd likely be inclined to smack them one. It's the lack of consequence and anonymity that makes people think they can act like that.

Hiply

Anrik wrote: »

My point was that if people didn't like the game then, they left it alone. Take ESO now, people continuously come on the forums and bash it saying how horrible it is, yet they keep playing it. If you don't like that stamina is weaker then magicka, leave the game. Thats like me complaing that McDonalds makes me fat, while I'm in McDonalds... eating 3 double quarter pounders.

I'm so glad the majority of the gaming community isn't like you in this regard. If they were there would be no MMOs. None. Nada. Zip. If everyone who ran into things they didn't like...class/archetype balance issues, progression issues, broken content, etc...with each MMO that had them subsequently quit then most people would have quit every MMO they ever played.

We like the game, we want to like the game. We don't want it to suck; we want it to be great. We're here spending hours and dollars because we like the game.

That in no way means we like the bugs, that we like the imbalances between builds, that we like some of the design choices, etc...

Since we want to like the game, we want the things we see as flaws and bugs corrected. Since we want the game to be an enjoyable experience, we communicate what we see as issues in the hopes that there are other like-minded gamers who will agree with us...this brings those issues to the company's attention. This means they stand at least a snowball's chance in hell of being addressed.

So no, if you want to like the game but are struggling with its flaws don't go quietly into that good night. Your voice, added to others, is what affects change.


PS. I have taken the liberty of using the editorial 'we'. If you don't like it then just pretend that the 'we' I was referring to are me and the mouse in my pocket.

Dekkameron

Electus wrote: »

I loved Donkey Kong Country!

I remember when that came out in the shops, i was still playing happily on my amiga when i noticed the price tag of £69.99!!!!??!!

Games were stupidly expensive back then.

Dayv

Anrik wrote: »

Dayv wrote: »

OP, do you see any middle ground between being hateful and just abandoning without feedback.

I think the makers of donkey Kong country would have loved to have had the level of feedback that ESO gets. Knowing what your potential customers do and don't like is some of the most precious information a company can have.

Or, or... or. It could be that I just didn't like the game and didn't feel like I should be a special snowflake and make them change the entire thing to suit my needs and wants. Like sports games, I don't like them, but I had to buy a few and try them out to realize that I don't. I didn't keep buying every one that came out and then complained that it wasn't the style of game I liked.

No, it couldn't be that at all. That's a nonsense rant that doesn't address the question being asked.

Theegoliath

ZoS isnt dumb. They know console gamers wouldnt put up with the game in its curent bugged state. Why else push the release back 6 months for the consle platforms. Console gamers want to plug and play. Not mod, and tweek. That stuff takes patience, which I feel is what the ussual pc gamer has more of then the average console gamer. Most of my coworkers are proof of these stereo types between the two.

kimboh

This was a regular occurance back in the cartridge days.

No demos or betas, you shelled out fifty bucks for a game and if you didn't like it TS.

This is why renting games became popular.

Hilgara

theegoliathb14_ESO wrote: »

ZoS isnt dumb. They know console gamers wouldnt put up with the game in its curent bugged state. Why else push the release back 6 months for the consle platforms. Console gamers want to plug and play. Not mod, and tweek. That stuff takes patience, which I feel is what the ussual pc gamer has more of then the average console gamer. Most of my coworkers are proof of these stereo types between the two.

Very true, We are all paying to beta test for the consol kids

aldeera_terab16_ESO

Anrik wrote: »

Anyone else remember a point in your past where you bought a game, played it part way and decided you didn't like it so you put the controller down. End of story. You didn't send hateful messages to the games developer telling them that aside from the graphics everything about the game, it's design and the dream of the game they had sucks. That they need to change it all, just to make you happy.

Donky Kong Country (SNES) did that for me. I still wish I had picked up Final Fantasy 3 in the store that day instead.

Hah. "Controller". We didn't have those back in my day! *shakes cane*

I vividly remember one incident where I had ordered a specific game (we didn't have teh interwebs back then, you actually had to order your games at a store) and received a wrong game instead. And the store kept telling me there was no such thing as the game I'd wanted to order, so I played that other game instead. It was horrible. Bug-ridden piece of ... something.
Many years later, I bought a copy of the game I had wanted to buy so badly back then. Didn't even play it for more than 10 minutes. It was horrible, too.

Ahh, the fond memories of waiting on a game's sequel ... Ultima series, does anyone remember that? I remember there was a "voice pack" addon for Ultima VII ... a whoppin' FIVE MEGABYTES of audio that was not included in the "base game" version, and I just HAD to have it. Which meant I had to upgrade my pc, but ... Ultima. Ah. I miss thee.

Dayv

theegoliathb14_ESO wrote: »

ZoS isnt dumb. They know console gamers wouldnt put up with the game in its curent bugged state. Why else push the release back 6 months for the consle platforms. Console gamers want to plug and play. Not mod, and tweek. That stuff takes patience, which I feel is what the ussual pc gamer has more of then the average console gamer. Most of my coworkers are proof of these stereo types between the two.

I really doubt they could get the go-ahead from Sony/MS even if they wanted to.

ers101284b14_ESO

Hilgara wrote: »

Spryt wrote: »

Only reason people didn't complain was beacuse writing a physical letter to the publisher was too much of a hassle.

And in most cases it would probobly be ignored as there would be nothing they could/wanted do about it if you didnt like the game as it was released as a finsihed product and they already had your money.

With the Internet you can get live feedback and actually make the game better (or worse) depending on that feedback. That is a good thing imo.

No believe it or not games DID actually work out of the box back then. I know I almost played them all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfS9M_Bdm0c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbyYPnRJ_AU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeOuvYknno0

Games then had a ton of problems too.
Thats after spending $70-$80 on a game and an hour of blowing into your nintendo to try and get it to even work.

Tannakaobi

Anrik wrote: »

Anyone else remember a point in your past where you bought a game, played it part way and decided you didn't like it so you put the controller down. End of story. You didn't send hateful messages to the games developer telling them that aside from the graphics everything about the game, it's design and the dream of the game they had sucks. That they need to change it all, just to make you happy.

Donky Kong Country (SNES) did that for me. I still wish I had picked up Final Fantasy 3 in the store that day instead.

Nope, the first game I ever played was WoW, you know the first mmo. I was not happy so I tracked down each developer and murdered them and all their family members.
Funny thing really, after that the game rapidly got better when they introduced arena's and Panda's. When I got board of the improvements I upgraded to Treasure Island Dizzy and I have never been happier.

Having played ESO for a while I have decided I need to don the old rubber gloves and get out my meat cleaver. The only thing stopping me is how well the VR are designed.

Hilgara

I think we are talking different generations
Some of my favourite games were CIV1 and Sim City 1. Worked right out of the box with no option to patch

Yes I really am that old

Omnevolus

[/quote]

No believe it or not games DID actually work out of the box back then. I know I almost played them all [/quote]

Lol, uh, no they didn't. And we were always stuck with them the way they were. From Sierra, til the internet.

BBSooner

Hilgara wrote: »

Yes

I can also remember a time when a game had to work out of the box because not everyone had internet. Ok so they weren't as complex but they were still pushing the envelope of what was possible.

Game developers are becoming lazy and relying on our patients to allow them to release half build games. This is happening more and more. People pay a premium price for a game and its in the bargain bin by the time they have fixed it to the point it is playable

I have a ton of old nes/dos games that were buggy. Instead of flipping out we - as the gamer - just learned to ' not do that because weird stuff happens '. Bugs are more prevalent in a living code base, which is essentially what MMOs are. Working (programmatically) parts of code are balanced/adjusted/maintained and are subject to human error because developers are expected to commit to their game instead of finishing world 5-2 in Mario and calling it a day.