I'm finally feeling the sting of the Nightblade at VR2

jambam817_ESO

I tried to stick with it, I got to VR2, out of Auridon and into the next Daggerfall vet zone, and if one sneak attack messes up, or i get detected, im usually as good as dead now. This really wasn't the case in VR1, now its a rule.

It'd be great if my sneak attack didn't fail for no reason some times. It'd be nice if dots didn't pull me out of Invis. it'd be nice if Player healing scaled enough to deal with VR damage when solo.

I'm even using a STICK and LIGHT ARMOR.... yup i must be really bad

I really really wanted to keep up with my Nightblade and check out the VR content, but I've since rerolled a Orc Sorc (14) 2handed, 5 heavy/2 light, lots and lots of targeted and PBAOE and just love him. I see his build holding up a lot better in VR content then the sneaky, fragile NB caster.

Frinkles

Well you could have asked for help... I am Dual Wielding VR content pretty easily, VR4 now. My first toon was a sorc got him VR1 and then realized how much I utterly hated being a sorc.

Rolled a NB never looked back, except for 1001 broken abilities, but I pull through anyways. You are using light armor so I have no idea what you're doing wrong...

To give you an example, today I my sneak attack fails to open on a necromancer which is bad in and of itself, the pack was of 3 prob being the skeleton the necro summoned pulled another pack of 3. So 6 VR4 mobs+ Skellys, and I still got them all Out of curiosity have you being using the assy ulti? Cause soul tether really did save me in the above situation.

ozgod22_eso

I should probably have posted my post here...I didn't see this one before I posted mine.

So I bit the bullet and converted my vet 1 melee DW medium armor nightblade into a destro/resto warlock type to see what all the fuss is about. My NB was always squishy but at least with my melee build I could burst down two mobs in a group of three before I started to take damage. But after going caster taking on 3 mobs is extremely difficult, even in the starting vet zone (Glenumbra for me). I just can't take as many hits and I can't outheal any of the damage I'm taking and my CC sucks. I'm starting to feel that the NB destro/resto is really an endgame trials/group build where there is a tank to soak most of the direct damage and a healer to bail you out to supplement your passive heals?

My melee nightblade bar was:

Ambush (opener)
Concealed Weapon (main magicka dump until <20% health)
Impale (finisher)
Rapid Strikes (main stam dump)
Flying Blade (ranged snare)

ULT: Devouring Swarm (vamp)

I switched to destro/resto with 5 pcs light 2 medium with inferno staff and my bars look like this:

Bar 1 - destro
Crippling Grasp
Funnel Health
Impale
Destructive Clench/Crushing Shock
Siphoning Attacks

Ult: Devouring Swarm

Bar 2 - resto
Crippling Grasp
Funnel Health
Impale
Restoration
Siphoning Attacks

Ult: Devouring Swarm

On either of these I take so much damage especially against mobs of 3 or more. I can't heal through it with Funnel Health and Restoration. Would remorphing Siphoning Attacks into Leeching Strikes help?

And I feel like I need to have some kind of defensive on my bar but the only one that seems to be available is Blur. Is Blur worth taking?

This could very well be a L2P issue but I felt much less squishy as melee medium and could handle mobs better. Any suggestions?

Most_Awesome

Ult should be veil of blades

Frinkles

ozgod22_eso wrote: »

Bar 1 - destro
Crippling Grasp
Funnel Health
Impale
Destructive Clench/Crushing Shock
Siphoning Attacks

Ult: Devouring Swarm

try replacing drestructive clench with Fear, Mass Hysteria specifically. = Profit

I personally use entropy the mages guild spell, instead of siphoning attacks, it costs soo little the heal is very nice and damage isnt bad.

jambam817_ESO

see, i went away from the "caster build" and my main bar is (with resto staff for +10% damage):
Resto Staff
1. Surprise Attack
2. Impale
3. Funnel Health
4. Reaper's Mark
5. Shadowy Disguise
6. Ult: Consuming Darkness or Soul Strike

Resto Staff
AOE/Heals bar:
1. Refreshing Path
2. Drain Power
3. volcanic rune
4. Mutagen
5. Immovable
6. Ult: Soul Siphon

It worked fine in Vr1, its not working so good in VR2 the failed sneak attacks really put me at a disadvantage. I used to use a setup similar to @ozgod22_eso‌ before the VR levels and found it just wasn't enough DPS in Vet.

kirnmalidus

I play a DW/Bow spec NB and while it isn't easy I've managed to make it to the Vet10 content.

I've found as a nightblade your better off NOT trying to fight everything you meet. If you do, you will die a lot. In vet ranks groups of 3+ are death if you can't burn the first one down with a crit on your sneak opener. Just steal the quest objective and run like hell.

Frinkles

kirnmalidus wrote: »

I've found as a nightblade your better off NOT trying to fight everything you meet. If you do, you will die a lot. In vet ranks groups of 3+ are death if you can't burn the first one down with a crit on your sneak opener. Just steal the quest objective and run like hell.

Waaaat! I have gone up to VR4 just fine killing absolutely everything I see... I'm confused, am I the only one thats having an easier time as a NB than as a sorc in VR?

jambam817_ESO

Shadowy Disguise for the win @kirnmalidus‌ I use this a lot in vet Public Dungeons

jambam817_ESO

Frinkles wrote: »

Waaaat! I have gone up to VR4 just fine killing absolutely everything I see... I'm confused, am I the only one thats having an easier time as a NB than as a sorc in VR?

Can I ask what your bars look like @Frinkles‌ ?

Gilvoth

nighblades simply do not do alot of damage and we die easily.
sorcerers and draginights have maxed health protection and high damage output. its a fact! and it needs to be fixed.

liquid_wolf

Sting?

Don't you mean the cold grasping fingers of death slowly closing around your throat? This death grip is choking out the final breath of the MMORPG player within you.

Once it has wrung the last bit of life from your gamer corpse, you'll be left soulless and a completely withered husk of your former self.

Playing the nightblade in ESO will ruin video games for the rest of your life, and everything you loved will turn to ash in your hands and mouth.

At least... that is what I'm getting from all the nightblade comments.

kirnmalidus

Frinkles wrote: »

kirnmalidus wrote: »

I've found as a nightblade your better off NOT trying to fight everything you meet. If you do, you will die a lot. In vet ranks groups of 3+ are death if you can't burn the first one down with a crit on your sneak opener. Just steal the quest objective and run like hell.

Waaaat! I have gone up to VR4 just fine killing absolutely everything I see... I'm confused, am I the only one thats having an easier time as a NB than as a sorc in VR?

I'm VR10, in Bangkorai (VR10 AD zone). Let's talk after you complete Cadwell's Silver.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

We're working on improvements and fixes to sneak that should help. The issue where your own DoTs break you out of stealth is not intended. There is also an issue with Evasion breaking prematurely. The Evasion bug is being fixed in 1.2.0 fixed in v.1.2.0, which is on the PTS right now. The DoT bug is one we're still working on, and will be fixed as soon as possible.

Valerien

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on improvements and fixes to sneak that should help. The issue where your own DoTs break you out of stealth is not intended. There is also an issue with Evasion breaking prematurely. The Evasion bug is being fixed in 1.2.0 fixed in v.1.2.0, which is on the PTS right now. The DoT bug is one we're still working on, and will be fixed as soon as possible.

That is the very definition of too little too late.

Seriously (and I hate saying seriously) Nightblades are not up to spec and these lame changes are not improving matters in any way shape or form. You need to stop think micro and adjusting a *** skill so it 30% improvement to potions instead of 20% or DOTs breaking stealth and start making it so NB can hold their own and don't need to hide through the fight.

jambam817_ESO

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on improvements and fixes to sneak that should help. The issue where your own DoTs break you out of stealth is not intended. There is also an issue with Evasion breaking prematurely. The Evasion bug is being fixed in 1.2.0 fixed in v.1.2.0, which is on the PTS right now. The DoT bug is one we're still working on, and will be fixed as soon as possible.

Thanks for the feedback Jessica! this is my first Mod response, woohoo!

I honestly think normalizing the behavior of invis and stealth will aid NBs in their fights. Evasion I'm not too familiar with, this must be the buff derived from Blur, is that correct? I haven't used it in a while, but it might be worth giving a try in one of my rotations.

I use Immovable in most situations where I'd probably use Blur, simply because it uses stamina. Thats it. I feel so weird with no Stam abilities and its the last one of use.

LariahHunding

Frinkles wrote: »

kirnmalidus wrote: »

I've found as a nightblade your better off NOT trying to fight everything you meet. If you do, you will die a lot. In vet ranks groups of 3+ are death if you can't burn the first one down with a crit on your sneak opener. Just steal the quest objective and run like hell.

Waaaat! I have gone up to VR4 just fine killing absolutely everything I see... I'm confused, am I the only one thats having an easier time as a NB than as a sorc in VR?

pics or it didn't happen.

Seriously, what is your bar and rotation? I can't usually take three unless I pop a ult.

I am VR6 and have easier time with my melee/siphon bar than my destro bar.

kirnmalidus

jambam817_ESO wrote: »

I honestly think normalizing the behavior of invis and stealth will aid NBs in their fights. Evasion I'm not too familiar with, this must be the buff derived from Blur, is that correct? I haven't used it in a while, but it might be worth giving a try in one of my rotations.

Evasion is the Medium armor active.

Worstluck

Does anyone use evasion? I've actually never even skilled for it. I use the skill Blur morphed into Mirage sometimes. It's not bad when you are aoe'ing large groups, but 15% doesn't seem enough unless you have long fights.

Worstluck

Also, this is what my destro solo questing bar looks like. I mainly aoe stuff down. I use a resto staff on my second for some utility and mana if I need it. I equip Dark Shades and Quick Siphon on my second bar for bosses. The rest can be heals or whatever you want. I usually have volcanic rune on the second bar.

Funnel Health
Sap Essence
Elemental Ring or Impulse
Siphoning Strikes
Inner Light


You can block while casting those three skills. This build works because you will be building ultimate very fast if you spam Sap Essence. You can then spam your ultimate which should be Veil of Blades. If you are vampire, even better as you can use Devouring Swarm more often.

If you want to do with with resto staff, just put Volcanic Rune in place of Elemental Ring.

SootyTX

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

nighblades simply do not do alot of damage and we die easily.
sorcerers and draginights have maxed health protection and high damage output. its a fact! and it needs to be fixed.

/sigh

That's not a class issue. My medium armour, S&B/bow DK has these exact same problems. And frankly I'm getting fed up with players and devs blaming the class, and implicitly asking for nerfs, because of non-class things being horrendously balanced.

It's that stamina builds suck because of the multiple defensive drains on the pool, extremely poor melee weapon skill lines, that weapon damage is less than half as effective as spell damage and that the armour skills are totally imbalanced.

Tai

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on improvements and fixes to sneak that should help. The issue where your own DoTs break you out of stealth is not intended. There is also an issue with Evasion breaking prematurely. The Evasion bug is being fixed in 1.2.0 fixed in v.1.2.0, which is on the PTS right now. The DoT bug is one we're still working on, and will be fixed as soon as possible.

I haven't seen yet a NB using evasion.
I know you guys are trying to fix many things, and it is good to see little improvements to NB pushed live before 1.2, but please focus on core abilities, like stealth or passives, instead of starting with the less useful ones.

Mortosk

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on improvements and fixes to sneak that should help. The issue where your own DoTs break you out of stealth is not intended. There is also an issue with Evasion breaking prematurely. The Evasion bug is being fixed in 1.2.0 fixed in v.1.2.0, which is on the PTS right now. The DoT bug is one we're still working on, and will be fixed as soon as possible.

Are you aware that a melee DPS Templar has trouble with V6 2-pack encounters? I don't even attempt 3-pack encounters anymore. I've tried a half a dozen different builds attempting to overcome this, but there just doesn't seem to be a build that works. The protection afforded by Heavy Armor against these over tuned encounters is a joke. The only thing that keeps us alive is the stun at the end of Biting Jabs, but this only effects 1 mob, you still take damage from the others. Yes, the same Biting Jabs you decided to stealth nerf and add a 1 1/2 second delay between casts, which would have made V6 content completely impossible had that remained in the game. I keep trying other abilities, but none work as well as biting jabs, and I keep coming back to it, there is no substitute.

I really hope you all will get your head out of your arse and do something about melee DPS Templars in the near future, before we all leave your game. I'm not going to switch to a robe/staff build, I refuse to do it. All my skills are melee DPS oriented, and that is the way I want to play.

You seem to be ignoring the masses screaming at you every day on the forums about this. Not one peep about us being under powered. I was able to muddle by up until V6, but now I am having SERIOUS issues, just completing story content to progress in the game.

There's something wrong with the class. Please acknowledge it.

Frinkles

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on improvements and fixes to sneak that should help. The issue where your own DoTs break you out of stealth is not intended. There is also an issue with Evasion breaking prematurely. The Evasion bug is being fixed in 1.2.0 fixed in v.1.2.0, which is on the PTS right now. The DoT bug is one we're still working on, and will be fixed as soon as possible.

I am happy with this and looking forward to 1.2!

As for my bars this is what I have:
http://esohead.com/calculator/skills#mcRz9Mk9o8w2ld8GFlT8GFtc8IryZ8IrgV8IPwB8IPbk8A4rK8injt8IPQe8Ifm38jKEL8t7mLsgW8g7MrsXy8C7mrzqa6Lzqq8D7xLzdM6rzdm6dbMz8F7GLzrJ6LzrO6Lbuy8O7mrdeB8Y7VLfJN857zzx3TH8zf7zzNbo8zu7zzHfYE6zHfZd8zG7zzHQ3F8zI7zzJIoX6zJIkL8zN7zzJZcY8zA7zzKpUN8zL7zzK4EX

I build my char initially as warlock but then I tried dual wield+concealed weapon and its been my main bar ever since. Bar1 all normal mob packs, Bar2 sustain for soloing VR World bosses and/or really tough mobs in general.

gougefub17_ESO wrote: »

pics or it didn't happen.

Seriously, what is your bar and rotation? I can't usually take three unless I pop a ult.

I could try a video but my laptop is now pretty old barely capable of frapsing WoW >.<

Hypertionb14_ESO

I like Putting on Elude and Evasion and then topping it with Ember Explosion.

Most mobs just miss me then and i can light attack them to death.

or after casting Elude and Evasion i just turn into WW and go around as a evasive WW for 16 seconds or so.

ShedsHisTail

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

I like Putting on Elude and Evasion and then topping it with Ember Explosion.

Most mobs just miss me then and i can light attack them to death.

or after casting Elude and Evasion i just turn into WW and go around as a evasive WW for 16 seconds or so.

Been there. lol
What a terrible way to bring down baddies.

Lyall84

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on improvements and fixes to sneak that should help. The issue where your own DoTs break you out of stealth is not intended. There is also an issue with Evasion breaking prematurely. The Evasion bug is being fixed in 1.2.0 fixed in v.1.2.0, which is on the PTS right now. The DoT bug is one we're still working on, and will be fixed as soon as possible.

Your own DoTs are not the only thing that break you out of stealth. For example, whenever I am fighting a NPC that dual wields, and they use the sparks or w/e the debuff is that gives me a 15% chance to miss, that debuff does not do any damage, but causes me to break out of invisibility when I use Shadowy Disguise after a half second. So with the debuff on me, I can spam through my magicka bar until it is dry and not go invisible for long enough to avoid a single hit.

There are several other issues with the Shadowy Disguise and its counterpart morph, in PvP for example. If I am in melee range, players just have to swing in my general direction or AoE or whatever, and it knocks us out of invisibility. This ability is the only thing close to a "OH SH**!" button that night blades have sole access to. Templars and Sorcerers have a 30% damage shield they can throw up that lasts for 8 seconds I believe, and Dragon Knights have a 30% heal. Those are huge sources of relief when they are about to die. Night Blades get a 2.5 (2.9 with passives) second invisibility that can be prematurely ended.

My suggestion, make the invisibility last for the full 2.9 seconds unless another ability is triggered. Not saying make us immune to the damage of DoTs or AoE or anything overpowered. I am saying that for the whopping 420 magicka we have to spend each time we cast that, we should stay invisible for the full 2.9 seconds unless we cast another ability. Make it so the only thing that can negate that invisibly is another Night Blade with Piercing Mark.

Mentioning the Marks, be it Mark Target, Piercing Mark, or Reaper's Mark...this ability should only be visible to the caster, not the target or anyone else. Nothing throws up a bigger flag of "YOU ARE ABOUT TO BE ASSASSINATED" than a huge black and red beam of death sprouting from your feet. Every time I try and mark someone to kill them, first thing they do is sit there and hold down block. Making any surprise attack I may try useless. The only real use I get out of this ability is against NPCs or from ranged during mass PvP battles when people are too busy dodging siege to notice the mark.

One last stone I would like to throw before I stop ranting. Siphoning Strikes/Attacks and Leeching Strikes. There was a note about fixing the tool tip on Siphoning Attacks, that is good and all, but that was not what the entire thread that was responded to was complaining about. The complaint is that Leeching strikes only restores 2.4% per attack instead of the 4% that is advertised. Another more personal issue I have with that entire ability and it's morphs is that it is based on attack, vs rate. What I mean, is that anyone that does anything other than dual wield with this ability is gimped. Someone that is dual wield with daggers can probably get 3 hits off in 2 seconds, while some one that is using a two handed weapon is only getting off maybe 2 hits in that same 2 seconds.

Instead of basic attacks restoring 4% Magicka/Stamina every strike, it should increase Magicka/Stamina regeneration by 100% or whatever for 3 seconds (I am guessing 100% because at VR10, and no magicka points, I have 1200 or so magicka. With dual wield at 3 strikes every 2 seconds that is 12% of my base magicka, or roughly 140 magicka regeneration every 2 seconds. My magicka regeneration is 84 with 3 set warlock, so doubling that would actually be a nerf for dual wield, but an increase for two handed). For part two of the ability, instead of 10% chance on light/heavy attacks to restore 15% Magicka/Stamina, it should be once very X seconds light/heavy attacks restore 15% Magicka/Stamina. Tweak the X seconds as required to make the ability balanced. Then Siphoning Attacks morph, adds all attacks to the regeneration and restoration proc. Leeching Strikes morph, adds health regeneration (it should also had health restoration to the once every X seconds but currently does not). That would make the ability useful to fast attackers, and slower two handed attackers, not to mention the morph choices a harder choice to make.

My 2 cents. Sorry for the ranting wall of text.

ozgod22_eso

Are you guys all using light armor? Or mix of light/med? Any heavy at all? Using light is what is stuffing up my survivability.

And the only mitigation/avoidance skills I can really use are Blur, Annulment or Evasion or Immovable (and their morphs).

If you compare class defensives:

Sorcerer
- Lightning Form (+ armor and spell resist)
- Bound Armor (constant + armor at cost of magicka)

Dragonknight
- Spiked Armor (+ armor)
- Reflective Scale (spell reflect)
- Dragon Scale (self-heal)
- Obsidian Shield (damage absorb)

Templar
- Sun Shield (damage absorb)
- many self heals

Nightblade
- Blur (increase avoidance)
- Summon shade (reduce inc damage)

Obviously not every class is the same. I'm more familiar with the other mitigation abilities for other classes as I levelled my NB as a stealth melee and tried to burst down mobs before they could damage me. But even while levelling 1-50 I found whenever I got into a new zone I had to swap out my medium armor for heavy and then replace it again as I levelled up and got more powerful. For the other classes I've levelled (templar 40, dk 42, sorc 32) I've just used one of those mitigation abilities and I haven't had a problem.

What am I missing in terms of damage/mitigation? Frinzee above mentioned using CC with the Fear which I will try. But for specific damage mitigation what have I missed, other than the armor skills?

ozgod22_eso

Frinkles wrote: »

ozgod22_eso wrote: »

Bar 1 - destro
Crippling Grasp
Funnel Health
Impale
Destructive Clench/Crushing Shock
Siphoning Attacks

Ult: Devouring Swarm

try replacing drestructive clench with Fear, Mass Hysteria specifically. = Profit

I personally use entropy the mages guild spell, instead of siphoning attacks, it costs soo little the heal is very nice and damage isnt bad.

See the thing is I'm so reluctant to try new morphs now because if I get them wrong it's 12k for me to change that morph >< I already paid out 12k to do the caster rebuild

Samadhi

Lyall84 wrote: »

...
My suggestion, make the invisibility last for the full 2.9 seconds unless another ability is triggered. Not saying make us immune to the damage of DoTs or AoE or anything overpowered. I am saying that for the whopping 420 magicka we have to spend each time we cast that, we should stay invisible for the full 2.9 seconds unless we cast another ability. Make it so the only thing that can negate that invisibly is another Night Blade with Piercing Mark.
...

Magelight and Detection potions should still serve as invisibility counters.
Also, the spellcrafting system when it is added should have a Detect Life skill available in line with previous Elder Scrolls games.

I make this statement as a V4 Magicka build Nightblade with Shadowy Disguise on both of my bars.

I'd like to see Shadowy Disguise give 100% weapon and spell crit for its duration.

Pmarsico9

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on improvements and fixes to sneak that should help. The issue where your own DoTs break you out of stealth is not intended. There is also an issue with Evasion breaking prematurely. The Evasion bug is being fixed in 1.2.0 fixed in v.1.2.0, which is on the PTS right now. The DoT bug is one we're still working on, and will be fixed as soon as possible.

This isn't really sufficient. The difference between the Nightblade and Templar compared to the Sorc/DK is massive and little bug fixes aren't going to change that. The class needs actual buffs.