Forcing group in Craglorn makes the content inaccessible, ZoS, please consider.
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reggielee✭✭✭✭grouping for content just doesnt work. In every game after the initial throng of players go thru the content the others new to the area are left without easily found groups, having to wait hours to get a group or skipping the content entirely.
THATS why I hate forced grouping. It sucks. When I get some time to play games, I'll be damned if i have to wait on strangers or on game friends or even family to sign on, be on the same quest line, or want to do the same area I want to do and all the other annoyances with gaming restrictions group content add to the mix. Add in ESO lousy group tool and rude elitist pugs and the annoyance factor just leapt even higher.
im only doing the pre vr content, will do one alt in each faction, then im done. Which should take me the full 6mths that I paid for, already unsubbed for continuance after that. hopefully things will be added or changed prior to that
i just dont get why people cant play without other players ..... and yes... I socialize all the time while playing eso, we use vent and skype to chat and hang out while we each do our own thing in the game with the odd dungeon or hard boss grouping.
to me.. THATS what mmos stand for.Mama always said the fastest way to a man's heart is through his chest.3 -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭i just dont get why people cant play without other players ...
If you want to play solo, then you should be allowed to do so. Scaling instances would go a long way in making that happen.
Conversely, the only reason I've ever played MMOs was so that my wife and I could play cooperatively. Forced-solo instances prevent that, and seeing them in this MMO is simply asinine.
If we wanted the solo-only experience, we've got a great many games in our library from which to pick, all without the butt-pain of a monthly subscription.Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"3 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭ozgod22_eso wrote: »
I believe eso is serving two masters. Problem is it should not exclude one master from a brand new zone.
My suggestion above can solve this problem quite well. People loving mmo can team up for greater challenge and more reward, people loving solo can at least finish the zone and explore the area.
This is exactly what the problem is. Because of the history of Elder Scrolls games, people feel like they should be able to explore all the content, including all the zones, by themselves if needed. The "grouping" part is something that should be something available as an option if players want to group.
The unfortunate reality of most MMOs its that players who play solo rarely get to experience ALL the content. In WoW and many other MMOs, end game content has always been gated behind the requirement to be in a raid group to experience it. If you were a player in vanilla WoW or even Burning Crusade, the only way to see Onyxia's Lair or Molten Core or Mount Hyjal or Black Temple was to get into a 40 man raid group. The majority of casual WoW players never ever got to see the inside of those instances unless they were in a raiding guild and were prepared to invest the time those guilds needed. Some of the attunement you had to go through in WoW vanilla to get into the instances took weeks, if not months.
As time went on, Blizzard decided they wanted more casual and/or solo players (solo players are not necessarily casual, some are very hardcore but choose to play solo) to experience their end game content. First what they did was nerf the previous progression content when new xpacs came out, to let players complete them in smaller groups (or even solo if they got nerfed enough, like most WoW players can complete vanilla end game content solo now.
Then they came up with something called Looking for Raid, a matchmaking service for solo players to form a PUG raid of CURRENT end game content with other solo players. They detuned that content so that high levels of gear and coordination were not required, so that you didn't have to be a hardcore to at least see the end game and participate in that content.
And how did the majority of the player base react? They HATED it! They hated the fact that Blizzard was trying to make end game content more accessible to single players. The hardcore raiders hated the fact that "bads can kill Garrosh by facerolling now qqqqqq". The elitists hated the fact that "ppl develop bad habits by facerolling now qqqqq". LFR became a synonym for "catering to single players and casuals".
The reason I bring it up is because without LFR, most of these single players, who may be great players but lack the time to raid or get into groups, would ever see Blizzard's end game content until much, much later. End game content in an MMO is usually gated behind the need to get into raiding groups and guilds. You can level up to a certain point, but to continue progressing you need to get into a group. Otherwise you're doing dailies and pvp.
Where I think ESO has fallen between two stools is because Craglorn was released as an adventure ZONE. So the implication is that anyone should be able to explore the zone, whether they be in groups or not. The way I saw it, its more like ESO's version of end game content. That's why they said it is tuned for high vet levels. It will be very difficult to complete solo. But because it was released as a zone, people feel like it's the next zone after Coldharbour.
The other thing is the way they introduced Vet levels, which implies that players should be able to keep levelling solo all the way to Vet 12, just like they did from 1-50. You can, but it's very, very difficult and/or time consuming to do so.
It's just expectation management really.
Great post ozgod, though I see this from another point of view.
"End game content in an MMO is usually gated behind the need to get into raiding groups and guilds. You can level up to a certain point, but to continue progressing you need to get into a group. Otherwise you're doing dailies and pvp...Where I think ESO has fallen between two stools is because Craglorn was released as an adventure ZONE."
***Yes. And the release talked about an Adventure Zone for exploration to find cool things here and there AS A GROUP and grouping for the other challenges as well. The Adventure Zones were heralded as cool new content for vet players to enjoy GROUPING in.
Though I understand your point, I do not think their message was unclear or led to some people having a different expectation. I think some people just want what they want, and what they want is to have this changed now.
I am not against solo play. I checked before buying this game to see what the general elements were, and what I learned is that there would be a decent amount of soloing viable in the game, and that towards endgame, grouping was going to be at the very least 'encouraged.' I learned that from a few fansites, online interviews and advance release promo material directly from Zenimax. It was not muddy or unclear.
There is in fact a good amount of solo play and it is easily viable up to 50+ content. After that, it is not impossible to solo, but less success is likely and/or more frustration. So the part of your post where you mentioned "You can level up to a certain point, but to continue progressing you need to get into a group." Well, that part is both true and applicable for TESO in what is its current endgame.
The people who want to change what they do not like about the way Vet content has been designed are obviously frustrated. But Zeni doesn't need to manage expectation in any different way. They need to decide if they will be making sweeping, wide swaths of changes that will change the original design focus for endgame content (*slim-to-no chance) or, if they will proceed exactly as most businesses would regardless of industry. That is, listening to customer suggestions and making some changes and adjustments where it is beneficial to their operation and fiscal goals, while maintaining adherence to the original gameplan and target market that their product was directed toward, and their financial backing was based on.
Edited by Anastasia on June 9, 2014 11:22PM1 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭
That wasn't my statement, I was concurring with and extending a quote from Catches_the_Sun which is why the applicable part of his post is above mine within my post and that part of his I put into italics.
The fact is that they do have both solo and small-group- (duo/trio) through full group viable content in this MMO. Its just that they do not offer ALL of it in ALL zones and ALL content through the entire game.
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GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭
That wasn't my statement, I was concurring with and extending a quote from Catches_the_Sun which is why the applicable part of his post is above mine within my post and that part of his I put into italics.
The fact is that they do have both solo and small-group- (duo/trio) through full group viable content in this MMO. Its just that they do not offer ALL of it in ALL zones and ALL content through the entire game.
Roger that. My contention is that at no point in this MMO should either solo or group play be forced onto the player, especially in the main story quest.
Leave such choices to the player.Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"2 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭
That wasn't my statement, I was concurring with and extending a quote from Catches_the_Sun which is why the applicable part of his post is above mine within my post and that part of his I put into italics.
The fact is that they do have both solo and small-group- (duo/trio) through full group viable content in this MMO. Its just that they do not offer ALL of it in ALL zones and ALL content through the entire game.
Roger that. My contention is that at no point in this MMO should either solo or group play be forced onto the player, especially in the main story quest.
Leave such choices to the player.
I would agree with you here GreySix about selectively making either solo or group play mandatory, but its definitely not rare in mmo's.
It is one of the many things that made me disgusted with FFXIV-ARR. Gated leveling behind 'must-have-or-cannot-progress' solo quests, and then a weekly cap/limit on the number of grouping/dungeon/small raid content and a required number of points to be earned from those capped weeklies.
I empathize with the difficulty and the irregularity of said difficulty among vet content mobs, however I feel certain this game is very close to exactly what they advertised as I'm a research-monger and I am not a former ES player. I came into this game specifically because of the advanced promo's I gathered info about what this game as an MMO proposed to be.
Contrast that with my friends who've played ES single player games for years, and they are pretty happy also aside from the glitches and bugs. I think there is solidarity on the request for more exp and/or better coin/loot perhaps in some content along with a look at least toward the mob difficulty.
I think you are generous though and I just do not agree that people somehow unfairly didn't realize what this game was about before buying it as far as there being some viable single player fun, in some zones and some grouping expectation in some zones, with neither being promised or guaranteed in ALL zones or content. Nor that they are being logical or reasonable in demanding the original design focus be changed now.
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Ysne58✭✭✭✭✭i just dont get why people cant play without other players ...
If you want to play solo, then you should be allowed to do so. Scaling instances would go a long way in making that happen.
Conversely, the only reason I've ever played MMOs was so that my wife and I could play cooperatively. Forced-solo instances prevent that, and seeing them in this MMO is simply asinine.
If we wanted the solo-only experience, we've got a great many games in our library from which to pick, all without the butt-pain of a monthly subscription.
Many of us feel that way about the forced solo being a stupid game mechanic. I finally got through the main quest, at Vet level 1. I still am totally annoyed that I had to do it solo. It would have been a lot more fun with someone else.
That level 30 quest is impossible for many people at any level.
ZOS I strongly urge you to rethink this. I did resub for one more month. You may lose me if you don't fix the harvesters, the companions and the attacks not firing off at the wrong moment. Even if you do fix that, I may still leave if you don't fix all the grouping issues, not just forced solo, but allowing those who want to solo some of the grouped content as well as the phasing issues.
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Blud✭✭✭✭✭pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe they can have both. So solo is locked out of being a vet..why would you lock out a percentage of customers from end game content. Makes no sense to me
what's wrong with a choice difficulty slider/scaling content?
Honestly, I don't think they are capable of coding it.
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Blud✭✭✭✭✭Phantorang wrote: »
Soloable only when you have certain level of equipment and skills, group of 6 v11 mobs is not something most players can solo.Phantorang wrote: »I'm leveling one character in each alliance. Once I reach VR1 on all three, I'm going to unsub and move on. If I wanted group play I'd be playing CoD.
Unless something changes in the next month or so, that'll be it for me. Sorry, Zeni, but it just doesn't look like you want to retain someone like me as a customer.
Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but I'm definitely starting to slow down to make the last 15 levels take as long as possible, savoring those sunsets.
So you havent reached vet level yet, and you are saving the last 15 levels? I really dont think you need to save anything, cuz the 12 vet levels can be leveled so slow that you can spend months doing it, provided you do the quests and listen to the NPCs in the other factions, from vet1 through to vet12 and craglorn
Craglorn is soloable, or parts of it at least, when you are vet 8-9.
True, but still, after you reach level 50 and have done all the quests in your alliance, you got 2 alliances left worth of questing, there is absolutely no need to save quests and single player content for later
And isnt it nice to have something to do when you got a certain level of equipment and skills?
Its 3 alliances worth of solo questing, every new zone from now on should be mostly group zones..
I don't think the third alliance is solo friendly, unless you are 1337 or have a DK.2 -
OMFG HOW can u dare to force me to Play with other people in a MMORPG
.... you people are seriously asking why ?
yo are just kidding, right ?
Edited by andreas.rudroffb16_ESO on June 10, 2014 1:06AM1 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭andreas.rudroffb16_ESO wrote: »OMFG HOW can u dare to force me to Play with other people in a MMORPG
.... you people are seriously asking why ?
read discussion before puking things out, or just enjoy yourself somewhere else.Edited by crislevin on June 10, 2014 1:06AM2 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm leveling one character in each alliance. Once I reach VR1 on all three, I'm going to unsub and move on. If I wanted group play I'd be playing CoD.
Unless something changes in the next month or so, that'll be it for me. Sorry, Zeni, but it just doesn't look like you want to retain someone like me as a customer.
Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but I'm definitely starting to slow down to make the last 15 levels take as long as possible, savoring those sunsets.
I'm sorry but you do know this is an MMO right?
MMO doesn't mean you have to group or even be social with others if you choose not to.
Since you want to play this card, here is a little bit of education for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game
A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet.[1] MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ. These games can be found for most network-capable platforms, including the personal computer, video game console, or smartphones and other mobile devices.
MMOGs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world. They include a variety of gameplay types, representing many video game genres.
On the one hand: A "Wikipedia" definition.
On the right hand: Most generally accepted definition by those who frequent and/or have played MMO's for many years.
Would you prefer a ZOS quote on it? Because I can go look for the interview where it was stated that "MMO" just means many players sharing worldspace and that you wouldn't need to group up with them.
They were looking to redefine MMORPG here. Not use the same definition that's been used for many many years.
On top of it:
http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/elder-scrolls-online-interview/
This is more a multiplayer Elder Scrolls game than an MMO… you can solo almost the entire game.
- Matt Firor, Game Director
Which is all fine and dandy...until they lock levels behind forced grouping.
Those that already finished everything else either have to join a grind group or beg friends to do the quests to get to vr12 because they already did all the content up to VR10 already.
They basically locked 2 levels behind a group centric zone under the misguided delusion that solo players wouldn't be there yet.
"There is a caveat to the “being able to solo level” things. Firor did say soloing the content is slower than if you grouped. Might seem obvious, but this could be a big deal for those of use who feel like when you play an MMO you should play with other people. The real question is how much slower will it be. If it is substantially slower then it will give people more reasons to group up, which works for a MMO, but it might be an aspect which will *** off the people who really just want another Elder Scrolls game and aren’t so interested in the MMO aspects."1 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭I'm leveling one character in each alliance. Once I reach VR1 on all three, I'm going to unsub and move on. If I wanted group play I'd be playing CoD.
Unless something changes in the next month or so, that'll be it for me. Sorry, Zeni, but it just doesn't look like you want to retain someone like me as a customer.
Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but I'm definitely starting to slow down to make the last 15 levels take as long as possible, savoring those sunsets.
I'm sorry but you do know this is an MMO right?
MMO doesn't mean you have to group or even be social with others if you choose not to.
Since you want to play this card, here is a little bit of education for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game
A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet.[1] MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ. These games can be found for most network-capable platforms, including the personal computer, video game console, or smartphones and other mobile devices.
MMOGs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world. They include a variety of gameplay types, representing many video game genres.
On the one hand: A "Wikipedia" definition.
On the right hand: Most generally accepted definition by those who frequent and/or have played MMO's for many years.
Would you prefer a ZOS quote on it? Because I can go look for the interview where it was stated that "MMO" just means many players sharing worldspace and that you wouldn't need to group up with them.
They were looking to redefine MMORPG here. Not use the same definition that's been used for many many years.
On top of it:
http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/elder-scrolls-online-interview/
This is more a multiplayer Elder Scrolls game than an MMO… you can solo almost the entire game.
- Matt Firor, Game Director
Which is all fine and dandy...until they lock levels behind forced grouping.
Those that already finished everything else either have to join a grind group or beg friends to do the quests to get to vr12 because they already did all the content up to VR10 already.
They basically locked 2 levels behind a group centric zone under the misguided delusion that solo players wouldn't be there yet.
"There is a caveat to the “being able to solo level” things. Firor did say soloing the content is slower than if you grouped. Might seem obvious, but this could be a big deal for those of use who feel like when you play an MMO you should play with other people. The real question is how much slower will it be. If it is substantially slower then it will give people more reasons to group up, which works for a MMO, but it might be an aspect which will *** off the people who really just want another Elder Scrolls game and aren’t so interested in the MMO aspects."
I get your meaning on this and I understand what you are saying Sakiri. I am just continuing to be amazed myself at the fact that forward point advertising, promo's and a whole lot of discussion on fansites and forums mentioned that this game would be quest-centric, have some soloing and in later levels would focus on group/have someone watch yer back gameplay. I knew it would also very clearly include group gameplay for the most part at the higher levels. Difficult content for Vet levels with a focus on grouping; yet many players apparently bought the game and subbed and now are surprised and dismayed somehow that they have found this to be true. In your post:
http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/elder-scrolls-online-interview/
This is more a multiplayer Elder Scrolls game than an MMO… you can solo almost the entire game.
- Matt Firor, Game Director
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We CAN in fact solo 'almost' the entire game (*though the almost or amount of is subjective obviously). We have soloing for a large portion, very viable soloing. In the Vet content we have increased difficulty, possible soloing, but a much higher possibility of success with duo's, trio's or full groups. What we do not have is Solo Viability in ALL zones/content AND Group Necessary Play through ALL zones/capped/behind a wall requirement.
Again, just seems to me some folks did not inform themselves before buying the game, and now are confusing the topic by concentrating on getting Zeni to change an original vision design to encompass BOTH solo viability AND grouping in ALL content/zones through ALL levels.
That game may be out there somewhere, but it isn't TESO. Potential changes and increased viability can be asked for reasonably but complete changes to key design mechanics AND content is...a LOT too much to not only ask for but to really believe would occur.
I appreciate the tone of your response, and it made me try to look at the topic from a different angle, but I still come up with: TESO is what it was advertised to be, and I hope some of those who didn't know what it was and are now frustrated can find ways to enjoy it as much as I and my friends are.
Edited by Anastasia on June 10, 2014 2:04PM1 -
GaldorP✭✭✭✭✭I think the idea of Craglorn (with the exception of trials) was that people make groups of 4 players and do dungeons and quests together.
And that's what many people did. It's just that they would always do only the most efficient dungeon over and over again (now it was Balamath, before the exploit was fixed it was Kardala).
If you want solo content there's 10 huge zones with tons of quests, solo dungeons to explore and places to farm almost any type of monster
If you're talking only about VR10-12, then yes, I agree, there is a lack of solo content and you are kind of forced to group up (or just attack one of the bosses at Seeker's Archive or at an Anomaly and leech exp from there without being in a group). But VR10-12 in general doesn't take very long.
Once you are VR12 the real problems start. Now you are forced to do only timed instances for 12 players that require you to play a certain build... (if you want VR12 items and the VR10+ versions of sets like Warlock and Dragon Scales) Now that sucks
That's why I mostly play in Cyrodiil now, but sometimes I go to Craglorn to farm mats or trade or join a group for a dungeon Edited by GaldorP on June 10, 2014 2:24PM2 -
I'm fine with it, except it doesn't work as designed after the first few weeks. So you get to Craglorn, eager to start on quests, only to notice there's nobody else doing what you need to do. So you sit there for ages announcing in the channel, because the grouping tools aren't very refined, and for some cases, not even used by some players.
So as your spirit of adventure wanes, you finally find yourself people to play with! Only to have the group break up 20 minutes later while you're in the middle of the (long) quest, because someone needs to change their kid's diaper. You're inside the mini-dungeon, can't find a replacement because you're already halfway through the quest. You can't announce in zone chat because you're in a different area. So you basically have just wasted 40 minutes and need to start over and lose all your progress.
So in theory, areas that require grouping sound good. But in reality, you have to rely on that perfect grouping situation where you readily find nice people to play with, that are committed to stick around for at least 2 hours, in order for real progress to be made. Most of the time, it's too much to ask in a PUG environment, when most players would rather sit around farming experience and easy loot.
I feel sorry for those who want to immerse themselves in the lore and actually read the quests and talk to the NPCs, most players will not patiently wait around. And when you depend on them to advance, it's just an exercise in frustration.Edited by Ralph_Damiani on June 10, 2014 2:35PM3 -
JinShepard01✭✭✭Ralph_Damiani wrote: »I'm fine with it, except it doesn't work as designed after the first few weeks. So you get to Craglorn, eager to start on quests, only to notice there's nobody else doing what you need to do. So you sit there for ages announcing in the channel, because the grouping tools aren't very refined, and for some cases, not even used by some players.
So as your spirit of adventure wanes, you finally find yourself people to play with! Only to have the group break up 20 minutes later while you're in the middle of the (long) quest, because someone needs to change their kid's diaper. You're inside the mini-dungeon, can't find a replacement because you're already halfway through the quest. You can't announce in zone chat because you're in a different area. So you basically have just wasted 40 minutes and need to start over and lose all your progress.
So in theory, areas that require grouping sound good. But in reality, you have to rely on that perfect grouping situation where you readily find nice people to play with, that are committed to stick around for at least 2 hours, in order for real progress to be made. Most of the time, it's too much to ask in a PUG environment, when most players would rather sit around farming experience and easy loot.
I feel sorry for those who want to immerse themselves in the lore and actually read the quests and talk to the NPCs, most players will not patiently wait around. And when you depend on them to advance, it's just an exercise in frustration.
The sad thruth of the zone, I have been trying for three days now, got a quest group for 1 hour, but broke up, now I know that its even harder to find people to do quests. I refuse to grind my ass off as a bot, so iam stuck with V11 till they get there heads out there asses and do some smart fixing or content adding.Why do people complain?
''Because players want to provide feedback and help shape a product they still see as having the potential to be great.''0
