New nerfs to DKs - now featuring cooldowns on abilities.

Baphomet

Global cooldown, internal cooldown, whatever they are called... some of the DK's abilities are much less responsive than what they used to be since patch 1.1.3 (or latency has gotten even worse than it was).

Fiery reach: when you pull someone to you, there is a good 0.5 - 1 second pause before you can activate your next ability now. Think that's a bit annoying when you want to dark talon or lava whip the target to set him off balance afterwards?

Dark talons: When you talon someone, there is also a pause where your character is completely unresponsive. I'd estimate it to be around 0.5 - 1 sec shutdown, too. Don't need to explain why that is annoying.

Dragonknight standard: this can often take several seconds to activate after you've pressed the button.

"But Baphomet, couldn't it be that the latency you experienced was client-side?"

Absolutely, and that why I subsequently took both my nightblade and templar into Cyrodiil and took them into large battles, too... and nothing. No ability lag or unresponsiveness. Tested them over a period of about 20 minutes.

I'll be damned, I thought to myself, so I took my DK back into the fray... and the unresponsiveness was back.

NordJitsu

Wouldn't surprise me at all.

They're all about the cool downs now, even though they sold this game on the premise of "no cool downs."

Baphomet

They also said that damage numbers would always be higher than healing numbers - guess again

Armitas

I definitely noticed the the delay on dropping the banner. I swear it feels like I am summoning the banner from space now.

I have not tried it on the other two.

It seems to me that GCD is a bit problematic here.

On one hand if you don't have a GCD and skills are spamable you don't need to worry about the flow of animations because they can be sped up at will. But without a GCD skills are unrestricted and spammable to often broken levels.

But if you add a GCD without any autoattack system then you have these big and noticeable gaps where your character does nothing. You get more control over skill spam but at the cost of appearance.

Censorious

Dunno about DKs but my Sorc is horribly unresponsive now.

I have to hold down key-presses, it's no good just 'tapping'. Sometimes (often) the first press isn't recognised at all and I have to spam keys several times to be sure of firing off skills.
That's when it actually works. Occasionally I get failures where the animation runs but with no result.

I'm pretty sure there's a hidden GCD on everything, or at least some sort of time-framing system that's running quite slowly. I have to slow myself down all the time, not react too fast, wait for the damn thing to take notice I'm asking for something.

Maverick827

Oh look, the class was over-nerfed with stealth nerfs. Who could possibly have seen that coming?

Evergreen

Baphomet wrote: »

Dark talons: When you talon someone, there is also a pause where your character is completely unresponsive. I'd estimate it to be around 0.5 - 1 sec shutdown, too. Don't need to explain why that is annoying.

Dragonknight standard: this can often take several seconds to activate after you've pressed the button.

From my experience against Dragon Knights in Cyrodiil Talons and standard are still being spammed instantly one after the other.

Surinen

tsk tsk bad developers, bad. false advertising should not be treated lightly. cooldowns are wrong.

Juraigr

Evergreen wrote: »

Baphomet wrote: »

Dark talons: When you talon someone, there is also a pause where your character is completely unresponsive. I'd estimate it to be around 0.5 - 1 sec shutdown, too. Don't need to explain why that is annoying.

Dragonknight standard: this can often take several seconds to activate after you've pressed the button.

From my experience against Dragon Knights in Cyrodiil Talons and standard are still being spammed instantly one after the other.

Lol what else we got

Ragnar_Lodbrok

So a stealth nerf adding cooldowns? I had noticed what I thought was skill lag, but I guess DKs are screwed again.

Sihnfahl

That's not as bad as occasionally the animation occurring on a perfectly valid target and no damage done.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

If you do not like your DKs and you feel they are pathetic, please play Templar.

Baphomet

That's not as bad as occasionally the animation occurring on a perfectly valid target and no damage done.

That is a serious issue, too. I've been getting that a lot with crushing shock lately.

@Evergreen I am not quite sure how interpret that death recap. Did you get caught in a talon+standard rotation without any stamina? Did you deliberately stand in the onslaught for the duration in order to prove a "point" with your death recap, or do you not know to avoid dark talons and standard?

Bear with me but I have to ask because a death recap like that is pretty much an impossibility for any player who knows what he is doing unless he was out of stamina or don't know how to dodge-roll.

vicNBitis

Maybe an attempt by ZOS to finally get clipping under control...?

Still_Mind

I think *all* classes were hit by that "stealth nerf" (aka normalization of ability usage frequency). Noticed pauses between skills on DK, Sorc, Templar (not Jabs), haven't played NB since 1.1.3, but I suspect the situation is similar.

If that's their solution to ability weaving, it's an awfully clumsy implementation. Making combat less responsive is always, always frustrating to the player base.

Evergreen

Baphomet wrote: »

@Evergreen I am not quite sure how interpret that death recap. Did you get caught in a talon+standard rotation without any stamina? Did you deliberately stand in the onslaught for the duration in order to prove a "point" with your death recap, or do you not know to avoid dark talons and standard?

Bear with me but I have to ask because a death recap like that is pretty much an impossibility for any player who knows what he is doing unless he was out of stamina or don't know how to dodge-roll.

When you are in medium/large battles with Dragon Knights spamming Talons and Standard stamina runs out very quickly even with stam potions on my rotation. This is why I argued that the CC immunity skill Immovable should counter the snare effect of Talons during its duration but I've conceded (though I still disagree) with Nord and others that dodge rolling, if you have the stamina left for it, is the only effective counter to Talons CC hence the nerf from 8m to 6m.

Of course I've read fancy semantics and threorycraft about retreating maneuvers but in reality it only seems to work against the first instance of Talons.

The point of my death recap is to show that I've seen no evidence of a cooldown and Talons is still spammed cast after cast as it has always been. You were concerned that there was a cooldown and you couldn't do this tactic anymore or that it was latency right? You must be experience latency issues.

Juraigr

The gcd is real

demonlkojipub19_ESO

The cake is real

There has actually always been a .5s gcd on activating one skill ofter another. It doesn't include adding a light or heavy attack before or after tho. Some mods show it. Ive never had a time where I can button mass a bunch of skills in less than a second, not even before 1.1.3

pecheckler

Cooldowns like this ARE A VERY BAD IDEA when you only have 5 skills to use. Combined with the weapon swap delay and you have utter stupidity.

Bashev

I have the same issues and totally agree with

Armitas wrote: »

I definitely noticed the the delay on dropping the banner. I swear it feels like I am summoning the banner from space now.

I am afraid from these ninja nerfs. First reflective scale, now these delays of the skills...

davidetombab16_ESO

I m up for cooldowns for every skills but not in a bar with 5 skills.... I like Gw2 combat system and i think this is the road to ahead.

Surinen

Bashev wrote: »

I am afraid from these ninja nerfs. First reflective scale, now these delays of the skills...

yes, there is an unhealthy dose of issues with patch/fix transparency. personally, I find it hard to believe in [for an example] talons and other aoe lack of cap as being 'unintended'. it happens everywhere in this game, from motifs drop rate to classes.

davidetombab16_ESO wrote: »

I m up for cooldowns for every skills but not in a bar with 5 skills.... I like Gw2 combat system and i think this is the road to ahead.

one of the selling points of this game was lack of cooldowns. cooldowns are evil.

Kililin

They have 63 days to get their *** together. They do not need to fix everything, but they really should change their modus operandi
I think cancelling is the only vote they hear.
And i dont even play DK.

blutstein

funny how all the DKs are whining now because they get nerfed down to the level of every other class.

flames inc.!

Kililin

blutstein wrote: »

funny how all the DKs are whining now because they get nerfed down to the level of every other class.

I do not play DK.
This is as much about stealth changes, and broken promises as it is about DK nerfs.
For me it is also about nerfs in general before fixing obvious broken things and imbalances to world/guild/weapon/armor skill lines.

If they would like to employ circle nerf mode like class based mmorpgs, they better had made this class based instead of skill based...
Would be easier to balance, since they dont get what is wrong at the moment.
Nerfing DK's wont fix this game.

davidetombab16_ESO

I m sorry but cooldowns are essential in a pvp game.

Kililin

davidetombab16_ESO wrote: »

I m sorry but cooldowns are essential in a pvp game.

Arguably, but if you want to use them, you should design your combat system with them in mind. Not add them 2 month's later, here and there but not there, without explaining what the heck you are doing.
Animations would be like cooldowns, if they would have thought about implications of animation cancelling.

davidetombab16_ESO

because this game is still a beta?

altrego9920_ESO

Its not just DK, my NB (yes i cry whenever i log it in) is unresponsive as hell... if DK (the gods of the game) are complaining about it just imagine what it is for everyone else.

Baphomet

After some more testing ('bout 6 hours of PvP) yesterday, I must be fair and say that lava whip felt a bit more responsive than it did the other day when I made this thread.

However, fiery reach is such a mess right now that I don't even use it. If I pull people they can always break the 0.5 sec stun and dodge roll away before I can follow up with searing strike or lava whip - and this is during zero lag conditions and when I am spamming the next ability in the rotation even while the target is in the process of being pulled towards me. Also, if the target sprints, there is no pull (this is an old issue though).

Searing strike I often have to press 2-4 times before it triggers. And this is after a shield assault where the target lies on the ground right in front of me.

Standard is still the most slow ultimate to trigger of them all. As someone stated, it feels like you have to reach for the skies and wait for it to descend - apparently in a parachute.

Did some testing in Craglorn yesterday, too, and sure enough, I could be standing right in front of enemies and my talons wouldn't trigger on them - face to face. It seems even worse in Cyrodiil where people are moving.

Another thing that blew my mind in Cyrodiil was that players jumping can actually avoid ranged-instant hit abilities like forceful shock. Yes, I use spell weaving with crushing shock and light attack and this guy I had targeted seemed to panic so he jumped back and forth. I could see that my fire bolt flew and hit their target but some of the forceful shock abilities did not (according to the damage numbers) even though it depleted my magicka. Further, crushing shock will also trigger and deplete magicka if a target breaks the line of sight, but it will do no damage. Okay, not DK related by I wanted to share it anyways.

Still_Mind

^
Do you use tab softlocking?