Are we learning yet?

Kililin

@dubah the damage part was meant for anomalies, because the biggest mistake when scaling mobs is scaling damage linearly. if this crosses the point where it is EHP onehit for maxed tanks, fights become ridiculous with graveyardwaypoint zerging and what not.

For the rest of Craglorn, and even anomalies in their current incarnation you are right. Especially with the trash mob abilities if the only deaths in a delve are because some *** archer mobs decides to go postal on the healer and practically one hits it, but bosses are a pushover...

Dubah

@bean19‌ Well, veteran content and craglorn is 2 completely different things, craglorn should be difficult and designed not necessarily for an optimal build but a build that can sustain and put out damage. veteran content for me was a joke, i played a templar with light armor and 2 resto staff's because i didn't like any weapon abilities and their really isn't many to go with a light armor build, but i had no problem, currently the veteran content is much more difficult than craglorn which is sad, i dont mind running into a group of 6-8 mobs in craglorn but i would never run through a group of 3 mobs in veteran content. which is really sad, but ZOS doesn't want to listen for some reason or at least communicate that they are listening.

I've had many posts where a forum person came down and said oh yeah we got a problem here, but nothing ever happens to it. And nobody comes out and says hey yeah we know they are broken here is a glimpse at what we are doing. The game is already out, there is no reason to be secretive about stuff anymore so i don't know why they are doing it. The real problem that exists is people aren't getting all hyped up about these patches which they should be, they are just saying oh another patch and nothing is being done thats important.

Also realistically this wasn't off topic, the class imbalance is part of the problem in craglorn and the reason why people are going in with like 6 sorcs 4 dk's and 2 temps and stomping it in 11 minutes. The only reason i used that as an example was because i play a templar and thats a problem that i see

Makkir

Have any of the devs actually tried playing Wildstar? It's like a Sonic the Hedgehog MMO...I wouldn't be worried.

Dubah

Kililin wrote: »

@dubah the damage part was meant for anomalies, because the biggest mistake when scaling mobs is scaling damage linearly. if this crosses the point where it is EHP onehit for maxed tanks, fights become ridiculous with graveyardwaypoint zerging and what not.

For the rest of Craglorn, and even anomalies in their current incarnation you are right. Especially with the trash mob abilities if the only deaths in a delve are because some *** archer mobs decides to go postal on the healer and practically one hits it, but bosses are a pushover...

You're right, the damage shouldn't be a 1 shot, but when it takes 20 hits to kill a tank already there is a problem, realistically the least amount of damage even a well geared tank should take is about 10% of his health in endgame content which craglorn is supposed to be. This stuff shouldn't be a cake walk and zergs really shouldn't even exist. People are going into craglorn at VR1 unafraid and taking stuff down like it is VR1 as well. I'm not saying tank needs to be 1 shotted, but the damage does need to be increased, and im saying that as a healer.

terence.caroneb17_ESO

If you wanna make Craglorn a zone with worthwhile content, you need to increase the difficulty of all the anomalies, the hostels, mini-bosses, and mainly, the trials.
It's just inacceptable that your PvE endgame content can be done in 10-15 min (granted for the best teams or the teams using exploits maybe, but still).

Also, make this zone impossible to go to if you're less than VR5 at least (or even VR10). People are leaving VR Zones and grinding to VR12 in Craglorn, for what ? So that they can be competitive in PvP.

So the other problem is: why not make level-based campaigns ? At least divide between 1-50, VR1-VR5 and VR5-VR12.

But it's not all, the loot in Craglorn is uninteresting and doesn't make you want to do stuff again outside of pure xp farming. Why not have some really really rare loot that is better than the crafted one ? Crafting became so easy with the blues and violet items you get in Craglorn that anyone in VR levels can pump up his blacksmithing/hireling/woodworking to lvl 50 in 2, 3 days.

So the whole concept of Craglorn is to get people to VR12 real easy, and have nothing to do after that apart from PvPing, when Cyrodiil becomes boring because of lack of variety in the PvP system (take the keeps around the imperial city, lose the keeps, take them back, take a scroll, lose a scroll, etc ...).

Don't get me wrong the game has a lot to offer, but it's mostly solo content, cause group content is short and doesn't give any incentive to play it again.

Darzil

Rantolo wrote: »

When Craglorn launched I went in with a group of 4 (Levels V1, 2, 3, 4) and we were able to start the quest and complete the first delves no problem. This content is supposed to be V9+, should be no way our group should have been able to complete without a lot of deaths... I don't think we died 1 time.

It's by design, though. We get most of our power by level 50, improvements during veteran levels are marginal, and are mainly broadening what we can do (or filling in core passives, if you're a craftaholic like me), so people can compete in pvp at 50. The actual difficulty of content is a lot less gated by level, particularly veteran level, than in other games. And that, in my view, is a very good thing!

Rantolo

@Darzil‌

As I stated in what you quoted, Craglorn content is supposed to be V9+. It was advertised as such, discussed as such, and sold as such. VR+ and VR++ content has become no longer needed because you can get VR1 and just head to Craglorn.

The question that Gina asked was how is Craglorn to easy. Well if you say that the content is intended for groups of V9 (GROUPS OF V9) then V1 shouldn't be able to do it....

Maybe they need to retract the idea that it is V9 and just admit that it is V1+

Jade_Knightblazerb14_ESO

Rantolo wrote: »

@Darzil‌

As I stated in what you quoted, Craglorn content is supposed to be V9+. It was advertised as such, discussed as such, and sold as such. VR+ and VR++ content has become no longer needed because you can get VR1 and just head to Craglorn.

The question that Gina asked was how is Craglorn to easy. Well if you say that the content is intended for groups of V9 (GROUPS OF V9) then V1 shouldn't be able to do it....

Maybe they need to retract the idea that it is V9 and just admit that it is V1+

And if this is done, then ZOS can try again to make content for V9-12 XD

Kraven

Class balance is a huge issue, ask a NB...Oh wait that's me.

A bigger concern however that is relevant to Craglorn specifically and not just the entire game in general. 50++ vet content is more difficult than Craglorn and it shouldn't be. Any minor difficulty is negated by zerg tactics and farm groups, xp grinding to VR12 negates the time many put in to reach VR10 before Crag came out. Isn't grinding to max an issue ZOS has been fighting since launch? Why promote it now?

Solo content exists, PvP exists (even if it is ridiculous atm) but we need more Vet dungeons for real group content and we need Raids. Don't want to call them raids that's fine call them Katmandu for all I care but there is a large portion of your fan base that needs, craves, thirsts, longs, demands and requires that content.

Want an example? Think of a cave system dungeon instanced for 20 players, 4 have to take a left fork and fight tooth and nail to reach a side gate, 4 take a right fork and claw their way through wave after wave to reach a right gate, all while 12 members stand in front of the main gate as waves of enemies cascade into them until the other 2 groups are in place. Once in place all 3 groups face a mini boss of appropriate difficulty for their numbers, mini-boss dies gates open and everyone stops because you're faced with one of those "Oh my god! Holy ****" moments when you see what waits inside.

Hell some of this content could take advantage of the siege weapons that already exist in the game. A tower with several floors could use water pots instead of the pvp flame pots to pour water below putting out fires so the people fighting below don't roast. Enemies could reflect/absorb spells so mages have to stop dps (skill exists in DK and S&B lines), or have the Templar Blazing Shield ability so all DPS needs to stop. Mechanics where if your group spreads out the boss teleports around the room but if you stack he does a massive AoE.

No more DPS race bosses, a DPS race is not a worthy mechanic it is just a check that actually promotes and requires DPS parsers. Give us one or the other. Want a DPS race then we need a group wide parse to say "Okay Jimmy your DPS is low we're going to replace you with Alice hers is better."

Rantolo

What we were told/sold on:
http://youtu.be/f4PddwLiYQs

- 0:36 - Content starts at V10 and exploration content is built for groups of 4.. It has new and DANGEROUS veteran rank group dungeons.
- 2:13 - They have a high level of difficulty and these should challenge even the best of our 4 person groups.

So much potential.... I so want it to be what is said in this video.... sadly it doesn't live up to the hype

Lets take this article on trials:
http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/04/23/creating-eso-trials

-One of the first things you’ll notice about Trials is that they bring a new experience to ESO designed to test even the toughest veterans.
-Trials also feature the most complex and difficult encounters we’ve designed so far.
-In Trials, all 12 players have to be flexible and agile.
-Trials expect you to be prepared to face a number of situations. You’ll need to know what skills to bring for each encounter and be able to adjust your strategy and loadout to react to boss abilities.
-OK, so Trials are tough. Really tough.

Response: 15minutes

Dubah

Kraven wrote: »

Class balance is a huge issue, ask a NB...Oh wait that's me.

A bigger concern however that is relevant to Craglorn specifically and not just the entire game in general. 50++ vet content is more difficult than Craglorn and it shouldn't be. Any minor difficulty is negated by zerg tactics and farm groups, xp grinding to VR12 negates the time many put in to reach VR10 before Crag came out. Isn't grinding to max an issue ZOS has been fighting since launch? Why promote it now?

Solo content exists, PvP exists (even if it is ridiculous atm) but we need more Vet dungeons for real group content and we need Raids. Don't want to call them raids that's fine call them Katmandu for all I care but there is a large portion of your fan base that needs, craves, thirsts, longs, demands and requires that content.

Want an example? Think of a cave system dungeon instanced for 20 players, 4 have to take a left fork and fight tooth and nail to reach a side gate, 4 take a right fork and claw their way through wave after wave to reach a right gate, all while 12 members stand in front of the main gate as waves of enemies cascade into them until the other 2 groups are in place. Once in place all 3 groups face a mini boss of appropriate difficulty for their numbers, mini-boss dies gates open and everyone stops because you're faced with one of those "Oh my god! Holy ****" moments when you see what waits inside.

Hell some of this content could take advantage of the siege weapons that already exist in the game. A tower with several floors could use water pots instead of the pvp flame pots to pour water below putting out fires so the people fighting below don't roast. Enemies could reflect/absorb spells so mages have to stop dps (skill exists in DK and S&B lines), or have the Templar Blazing Shield ability so all DPS needs to stop. Mechanics where if your group spreads out the boss teleports around the room but if you stack he does a massive AoE.

No more DPS race bosses, a DPS race is not a worthy mechanic it is just a check that actually promotes and requires DPS parsers. Give us one or the other. Want a DPS race then we need a group wide parse to say "Okay Jimmy your DPS is low we're going to replace you with Alice hers is better."

True however, explain this class imbalance that you speak of, as there are videos of NB's soloing vet dungeons AND craglorn bosses. The only issue with NB's is that their DPS is not up to par and their survivability is strung out to high hell. This is rediculous, everyone has found a way to survive a craglorn boss and vet dungeons solo, the problem is the DPS for the most part. Templars and Nightblades could not last a minute compared to the DPS a sorceror and a dragon knight can do. The balance needs to exist cause at the moment it does not

Kililin

Dubah wrote: »

Kraven wrote: »

Class balance is a huge issue, ask a NB...Oh wait that's me.

A bigger concern however that is relevant to Craglorn specifically and not just the entire game in general. 50++ vet content is more difficult than Craglorn and it shouldn't be. Any minor difficulty is negated by zerg tactics and farm groups, xp grinding to VR12 negates the time many put in to reach VR10 before Crag came out. Isn't grinding to max an issue ZOS has been fighting since launch? Why promote it now?

Solo content exists, PvP exists (even if it is ridiculous atm) but we need more Vet dungeons for real group content and we need Raids. Don't want to call them raids that's fine call them Katmandu for all I care but there is a large portion of your fan base that needs, craves, thirsts, longs, demands and requires that content.

Want an example? Think of a cave system dungeon instanced for 20 players, 4 have to take a left fork and fight tooth and nail to reach a side gate, 4 take a right fork and claw their way through wave after wave to reach a right gate, all while 12 members stand in front of the main gate as waves of enemies cascade into them until the other 2 groups are in place. Once in place all 3 groups face a mini boss of appropriate difficulty for their numbers, mini-boss dies gates open and everyone stops because you're faced with one of those "Oh my god! Holy ****" moments when you see what waits inside.

Hell some of this content could take advantage of the siege weapons that already exist in the game. A tower with several floors could use water pots instead of the pvp flame pots to pour water below putting out fires so the people fighting below don't roast. Enemies could reflect/absorb spells so mages have to stop dps (skill exists in DK and S&B lines), or have the Templar Blazing Shield ability so all DPS needs to stop. Mechanics where if your group spreads out the boss teleports around the room but if you stack he does a massive AoE.

No more DPS race bosses, a DPS race is not a worthy mechanic it is just a check that actually promotes and requires DPS parsers. Give us one or the other. Want a DPS race then we need a group wide parse to say "Okay Jimmy your DPS is low we're going to replace you with Alice hers is better."

True however, explain this class imbalance that you speak of, as there are videos of NB's soloing vet dungeons AND craglorn bosses. The only issue with NB's is that their DPS is not up to par and their survivability is strung out to high hell. This is rediculous, everyone has found a way to survive a craglorn boss and vet dungeons solo, the problem is the DPS for the most part. Templars and Nightblades could not last a minute compared to the DPS a sorceror and a dragon knight can do. The balance needs to exist cause at the moment it does not

See videos of staff/la nightblades pushing over 1000 Dps

Ragnar_Lodbrok

OP, people. are leaving because one class gets unfairly nerfed over and over, the only viable playstyle is light armor and staff, and the endless lies by ZOS

Voodoo

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

OP, people. are leaving because one class gets unfairly nerfed over and over, the only viable playstyle is light armor and staff, and the endless lies by ZOS

No ppl are not leaving just for your reason...stick to the topic or make another thread about yours ...you got something to say about craglorn?

silent88b14_ESO

Stifling disagreement as off topic instead of arguing your case is a fail.

People are leaving for more than one reason.

What is a 'challenge' for one subset of players is an incredible PITA for another.

Another player subset leaving are the locusts. They, and the over-achievers who apparently have nothing to do all day but train their muscle memory have encouraged Zen to set the bar too high for those who want a game to relax with over a beer after a full day of real challenges.

Class balance is one thing but there is also player balance, and every player counts.

Self-anointed 'Elites' are necessarily in the minority if they are elite.

Other examples of why people are leaving are totally on topic when the thread has proposed a falsehood.

Your belief that the game is not challenging is your subjective evaluation, not fact. There are other reasons, but that the game is not challenging doesn't rank high among them.

Kraven

silent88b14_ESO wrote: »

Stifling disagreement as off topic instead of arguing your case is a fail.

People are leaving for more than one reason.

So stick to the thread. It isn't about why people are leaving it is about the ease at which we find Craglorn. Do you disagree? Do you actually find it challenging? Have you entered Crag yet? Do you enjoy the zerg fest farm that are Anomolies and Burials? Do you agree with and enjoy the XP grind that negates 50+ and ++ content?

silent88b14_ESO

The ease that one kind of player finds in Craglorn will not be found easy by other kinds of players. There are many kinds of players, some of whom just want to enjoy the ride.

I think what we most want is a good game. But what is a good game? Is it only what you prefer or I prefer? Look around on the boards here and notice that many players find serious challenge where others do not. Some find easy what others find hard. In school you remember some guys were better at some things than others, and those others were often better at other things. Its the same here: everyone is different. Your need for a radical challenge isn't going to find the same audience when someone else plays it.

Zen's idea of tailoring content to the group leader is, I think, a really really good idea. I can see how they could do it but I think they need to find a reliable metric to key the challenge from. That way you can enter a Craglorn that is challenging for you and Weaksauce Bob can enter a Craglorn that is challenging, rather than suicide, for him.

What we should be tuning now, before they have their systems perfected, is what should be the middle of the bell curve. Help them get that right and everything else should fall into place. But if we keep ratcheting the intensity so that only 1% of players can actually achieve the content we're screwing up our mission.

Not everyone is exactly the same as you. It is right that they are different. And not only will you migrate to another game sooner or later, but you are arguing for the developer to exclude those other people from some quality content just because, for example, somebody who once had the developers' ear needed challenges to be more extreme.

Voodoo

@silent88b14_ESO

If you haven't been reading the latest news on Craglorn ...by ZOS own standards (of Craglorn) it sounds like the zone is not living up to the description they provided ..you know the " V10-12 level", "You will need a team of atleast 4 to just explore", "Trails will take 1-1.5hrs to complete at first then 30-40 mins for the best players"

You know those standards! ... What I am reading (everywhere actually) is that mobs can be soloed quit easy by a V1, Trails in 11-15mins, Dungeon zergs that are again just another place for xp/loot/bot grind.

Do you have an opinion on this place (any experience)? or are you just going to stick to fence sitting and being as politically correct as possible?

silent88b14_ESO

I'm not trying to say there aren't problems. Difficulty is inconsistent. I'm trying to say that ratcheting up the difficulty so far that the top players are pushed to their limit is using the wrong metric for correct evaluation. That is a good metric for testing the tuning system they are talking about (though I think keying that tuning to level will be inadequate. They need a metric for determining skill.).

The game is unlikely to survive if 90% of the player base is excluded from the veteran content. It is more likely to survive if 90% of the players can win any on-level encounter once in ten solid attempts. If 5% give up for lack of challenge the game can still survive. If the bottom 5% give up because they simply are the 5% worst players the game can survive. But it cannot survive if 90% of the players give up in frustration.

If you are a top flight player then consider that your experience is not the optimal evaluation of difficulty for the good of the game. It isn't that you don't matter but Zen shouldn't commit seppuku just because you aren't finding it a challenge.

I can guarantee you that Zenimax is studying real numbers. They didn't get the money to build the game by being stupid. I'm confident that they know their class skills need adjustment, some nerfs and some buffs, but they have to prioritize what will be worked on first, even though they have multiple teams.

Look at the sub-L50 game and history. We had people zipping through to L50 within days of opening, but I think most players haven't yet progressed beyond 50. That fact (okay I haven't the numbers to properly state it is fact) should inform you that not all players are equally skilled/informed.

We also have indications that most players have to level to 24 to do an L20 main quest or make L34 to get past an L30 boss instance. Yet that practice will not work for the L50 gate quest. They cannot over-level that quest.

Granted, most of those sub-Vet players aren't playing optimally or, like me, are old timers whose cerebral skills are sharp but their muscle coordination isn't what it once was, but the fact remains that if an average player attempts an encounter and fails ten out of ten tries they are going to figure something is wrong, and we really don't want to teach the bulk of the player-base a lesson that they just aren't good enough to play the game at all. Those average players will be incredulous, perhaps suspect scripting and bots in anyone who belittles them for not being good at the game.

Then look at the context. They beat Molag Bal, a world class threat, according to the tale. Yet the are supposed to meet greater difficulty in a fully equipped Vet group versus a mobs in Craglorn? No. They've already proven they are the baddest mofos in the valley of death.

Our biggest challenge should be the other Vet players in Cyrodiil. Vet quests should serve your experience in Cyrodiil rather than be where you seek your challenge. That is going to be a serious challenge for the developers because any tweak they make to class skills will affect many critical outcomes. But it clearly must be done.

A massively multiplayer title is not going to last very long if only the top ten percent of players can tackle trials successfully. I'd say no more than the bottom ten percent should really fail at any step along the way unless they are simply prone to quitting, and you cannot please those types anyway no matter what you try to do.

But I think every system should be tuned for the mean rather than the extreme. The encounters should indeed push them to their limits and always help the player develop their skills rather than keep them in a rut, but we don't want to run them off either.

silent88b14_ESO

Maybe it would work using level as the metric for setting the difficulty of any particular set-piece battle if each time the player/group wipes that difficulty is automatically adjusted down. The first time would be the most challeging. Wipe and the next time it could be eased up a bit, say by increasing the kool-downs of the mobs, reducing the adds, dampening the dps, etc. We don't want players not challenged, but we want players to win before they quit. Frustration is not beneficial for an entertainment title.

silent88b14_ESO

Voodoo wrote: »

Do you have an opinion on this place (any experience)? or are you just going to stick to fence sitting and being as politically correct as possible?

That looks like bait. It suggests that you haven't quite figured out how to attack what I am saying, so you are looking for something about me to attack instead. It is a symptom of weakness to seek out a rhetorical tactic instead of dealing reasonably with the substance of an opposing view.

Do you believe that making any encounter challenging for the top players and suicide for anyone not in that elite cadre is appropriate in a multiplayer game?

silent88b14_ESO

Kraven wrote: »

Do you agree with and enjoy the XP grind that negates 50+ and ++ content?

Do you imagine that this observation only talks about Craglorn, or doesn't it also say something about 50+ and ++ content?

I think the 50+ content was thrown up in place as the most expedient way to give some kind of content to the players who leveled to L50 waaaay ahead of Zen's projected timetable. The difficulty was ramped up to try and slow the advance. If I am right about that, then it suggests 50+ content isn't rightly comparable with planned content like Craglorn which most likely has a challenge level inline with what was origianlly intended.

The challenges that are now commonly frustrating the rest of the playerbase, the ones who are levelling at the rate that was originally expected, may have been desperate attempts to slow down those who rushed to 50 and found Cyrodiil still empty. Those roadblock encounters haven't all been returned yet to their intended gateway difficulty, unless I miss my guess.

And I am a bit worried that those gateway encounters haven't all been readjusted because some few people are proclaiming that there isn't enough challenge. This is why I weighed in on this thread. If you are one of the best, then own that and also the responsibility that comes with it.

If you recommend to Zenimax to increase the difficulty of an encounter to challenge your superior skills then you are recommending what will be overly difficult for the average player.

It helps nobody to just tell less skilled players L2Play because there are natural differences between players that will never be overcome. Normal people don't need more humiliation especially when they are just trying to relax and have fun their own way. You may well have a different view, but what is fun for you is probably a bit different from what is fun for others.

Kraven

silent88b14_ESO wrote: »

I think the 50+ content was thrown up in place as the most expedient way to give some kind of content to the players who leveled to L50 waaaay ahead of Zen's projected timetable. The difficulty was ramped up to try and slow the advance. If I am right about that, then it suggests 50+ content isn't rightly comparable with planned content like Craglorn which most likely has a challenge level inline with what was origianlly intended.

The challenges now too commonly frustrating the rest of the playerbase, the ones who are levelling at the rate that was originally expected, may have been desperate attempts to slow down those who rushed to 50 and found Cyrodiil still empty. Those roadblock encounters haven't all been returned yet to their intended gateway difficulty, unless I miss my guess.

You're wrong and you miss your guess. 50+ and ++ content was in and planned since midway through last year. Long before launch before mass numbers reached max level. Between this and:

silent88b14_ESO wrote: »

Those average players will be incredulous, perhaps suspect scripting and bots in anyone who belittles them for not being good at the game.

Then look at the context. They beat Molag Bal, a world class threat, according to the tale. Yet the are supposed to meet greater difficulty in a fully equipped Vet group versus a mobs in Craglorn? No. They've already proven they are the baddest mofos in the valley of death.

Our biggest challenge should be the other Vet players in Cyrodiil.

Tell me that you have no clue. So thanks for clearing that up. "Oh you beat Molag Bal, game over all easy from here!" PvP IS NOT end game, ask GW2, Warhammer and any number of other titles that tried to exist solely on PvP. If an average player can do it in 4 tries a good player in one go and a poor player just can't do it, so be it. Start simplifying to the lowest denominator and the 'good' players leave because it is boring and easy, the average player leaves because there is no challenge at all then the crap players leave because they're the only ones left in the game.

NONE OF WHICH HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE EASE OF CRAGLORN.

4 posts in a row and you can't answer simple questions like:
Do you actually find it challenging? Have you entered Crag yet? Do you enjoy the zerg fest farm that are Anomolies and Burials? Do you agree with and enjoy the XP grind that negates 50+ and ++ content?

Sirlex

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

@Layenem, can you let us know what you feel is too easy in Craglorn? Everyone else is welcome to chime in as well, if you're feeling the same way.

Trials are too easy, Leveling is too easy, and gearing is too easy.

You did ask...

Kraven

Currently Craglorn promotes farming, grinding, botting, zerging, and exploiting. Kill a boss in a trial the legit way and you're stuck with a time far longer than that those who work around mechanics. Weekly reward is based on time of completion, so why would anyone do it the legit way?

So back on subject Trials do not equal raids or end game PvE content. Players need quality end game.

silent88b14_ESO

Kraven wrote: »

Tell me that you have no clue. So thanks for clearing that up.

Yeah, there's the ad hominem I predicted.

Kraven wrote: »

NONE OF WHICH HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE EASE OF CRAGLORN.

Tell me, Kraven: what is EASE? How can you know what is easy or hard is unless you know the subjective experience of others? Guess what, bright eyes: YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE. Thanks for clearing that up. Most people grow out of thinking they are the sole center of the universe at puberty or earlier.

Kraven wrote: »

4 posts in a row and you can't answer simple questions like: Do you actually find it challenging?

My experience is not everyone's experience and neither is yours, Kraven. Look at the posts in this subforum and count the number of them saying the things you find easy are hard. Answer my question now: Do you believe that making any encounter challenging for the top players and suicide for anyone not in that elite cadre is appropriate in a multiplayer game?

Kraven wrote: »

Have you entered Crag yet?

Take a wild guess next time. I don't think it is good for the game to tailor encounters for scripters, bots, and the elite.

Dubah

silent88b14_ESO wrote: »

Kraven wrote: »

Tell me that you have no clue. So thanks for clearing that up.

Yeah, there's the ad hominem I predicted.

Kraven wrote: »

NONE OF WHICH HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE EASE OF CRAGLORN.

Tell me, Kraven: what is EASE? How can you know what is easy or hard is unless you know the subjective experience of others? Guess what, bright eyes: YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE. Thanks for clearing that up. Most people grow out of thinking they are the sole center of the universe at puberty or earlier.

Kraven wrote: »

4 posts in a row and you can't answer simple questions like: Do you actually find it challenging?

My experience is not everyone's experience and neither is yours, Kraven. Look at the posts in this subforum and count the number of them saying the things you find easy are hard. Answer my question now: Do you believe that making any encounter challenging for the top players and suicide for anyone not in that elite cadre is appropriate in a multiplayer game?

Kraven wrote: »

Have you entered Crag yet?

Take a wild guess next time. I don't think it is good for the game to tailor encounters for scripters, bots, and the elite.

Lol, ZOS built your crummy little casual stuff, its called 50+ and 50++ I want difficult stuff which is what we were promised out of craglorn, so go back to 50+ complete that, then go back to 50++ complete that and make my craglorn hard. This is what was promised and no one is delivering, and you are right, challenging for one player may not be the same as challenging for another, but im pretty sure if you take a look around there isn't just 3 people complaining about the lack of difficulty so tell me, with at least 40-50% of the population actually in craglorn and minus the tards that want it easier so they can get gear without really doing anything, how can you sit here and say there is no proof of craglorn not being hard? Go do your research then come back with some real answers or wait a minute, how about this, instead of trolling and arguing with everyone here HOW ABOUT A SUGGESTION OF YOUR OWN!?

Also you can stop with the big words trying to make yourself look smart, you are only using them wrong, ad hominem is attacking someone's traits of an argument with an intent at destroying it, and traits meaning you have not been somewhere so you can't argue it, and as far as i am seeing there is no attacks on your traits. now if he said you've never been to craglorn so you have no idea what you are talking about then you would be correct, but in this case he is asking you to tell us that you have no clue and pre emptived the thanks for clearing that up, so thanks for clearing that up

silent88b14_ESO

You would have flunked your rhetoric course with that understanding of ad hominem, Dubuh. Ad hominem is attempting to destroy the credibility of anyone who presents an argument you can't defeat on its own merits. In otherwords if I say a true thing that disproves your position you try to discredit it by trying to make everyone doubt me and divert their attention from the problem with your own argument.

As for a suggestion of my own try this one on for size: You go back to your Craglorn and enjoy the hell out of it because in Craglorn, like Cyrodiil now, all PvE content is compulsory codependence. Go to PTS and see for yourself little fella. You want difficult? Solo it. If it is still too easy do it without armor. If that's too easy go without pots and limit your skills to three.

silent88b14_ESO

It will be much less expensive for everyone if those who want greater challenge than already is present simply self-limit. Reduce their armor. Allow themselves handicaps. They will improve their skills, the danger will be greater, and it will be a fine example of 'sandboxyness' where players make do for themselves instead of expecting the developer to build everything for them. Better yet instead of using finely tuned groups choose odd groups, sub-optimal groups.

For the rest of us I urge you to go make a VR9 character on the Public Test Server (you get a full array of decent (blue) weaponry and armor) and assign your own attributes and skills. Try it. See whether it is without challenge. Decide for yourselves whether these people demanding the developers make Craglorn more challenging are blowhards or are they right. As I pointed out above I cannot know whether it is easy for you or hard, but neither can anyone else.

Then speak your mind fairly and convincingly.

smokes

Kraven wrote: »

You're wrong and you miss your guess. 50+ and ++ content was in and planned since midway through last year. Long before launch before mass numbers reached max level.

i dispute this.

cyrodiil was intended as endgame until craglorn launched - if it was planned to add the other factions storylines as VR+ and VR++ content:

why were the mobs in cyrodiil all level 50
why were all the cyrodiil delves level 50
why were all the node spawns in cyrodiil ebony and not VR crafting materials
why were all the provisoning materials in crates and barrels in VR+ and VR++ areas, the level of their respective low level counterparts.

players asked for the additional areas as sideways character development in beta, for all the skyshards, lore, loot and world to explore - zenimax obliged. even the explanation given by cadwell is a bit shaky as it was never originally planned, it was a late implementation.

honestly, i think they need to remove VR experience from VR+ and VR++ content, roll back VR12 to VR2, make level 50 an actual level and then set craglorn as level 50-VR2. i'd also like to see a UI toggle for VR+ and VR++ difficulty, which scales up the quest rewards depending on difficulty, green for easy, blue for medium, purple for hard and make the mob level scale to player level (if possible)

the current VR+ and VR++ level grind is what is making farming anomalies so appealing, it's done a grand job of killing off the playerbase so far and needs changing asap. which is also why craglorn was available from VR1 as a lifeline to those close to quitting from the VR grind. which from the number of low VR players i've seen at the anomalies, is many.

get that sorted, then we can really start talking about craglorn difficulty (as many more players will have trials available)- but from the sounds of this thread, we're gonna need a variety of instance difficulty levels and loot representative of that difficulty.