The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
@ZoS - Please let the dev team who designed the magicka builds, now to design the stamina builds too
Bashev
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Obviously we can see that the skills and the sets for magicka and stamina are designed by different teams because they are totally different.
I will start that I play DK VR12 S/S 7 light, Magicka furnace set and Akavari Set and I am OP. Most of the people think that DK is very OP and probably it is but let me give you my 2 cents.
I leveled all weapon skills to 50 so I have some knowledge about how they work. I do not have any other class and I played Templar and Sors till lvl 10 in the beta, so some of my information about these classes can be wrong.
Let's start with my proves. I included examples which are available for all classes, not only for certain ones.
Weapon vs Spell critical
Spell critical - if you have 5 pieces of light armors you gain 10 spell critical, inner light 20 spell critical, Twilight's Embrace set 5 spell critical, Willow's Path 3 parts set 5 spell critical, + 7 critical from the weapon trait or 3.5 if we use S/S. Totally 43.5(47) spell critical.
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Weapon critical - if you have 7 pieces of medium armor you gain 21 weapon critical, I do not count Hide of the Werewolf set because it has no VR version, we can use only Night's Silence Set which gives 5 weapon critical, + 7 critical from the weapon trait or 3.5 if we use S/S. Totally 29,5(34) weapon critical.
More critical = more damage and more important faster ultimate gain.
Magicka vs stamina return
Magicka: there is a skill Equilibrium and its morph which can trade health for magicka, there are two sets: Magicka furnace (5 pieces set return 10% of your max magicka with 5 seconds cooldown) - perfect for mele magicka classes, Vestments of the Warlock (3 pieces set composed of accesories) - once per minute, when below 33% Magicka, gain 33% Max Magicka - perfect for casters.
Stamina: none
Magicka vs stamina cost reduce
Magicka - 7 pieces of light armor give 21% magicka reduce of all magicka based skills,
60 magicka reduce from accessories, 3% from Seducer set and 8 % from Worm's Raiment. Totally we can have 32% reduction of magicka based skills + 60 magicka reduction from accessories (there is a cap for this reduction).
Stamina - all weapon skills have passives for reduction with 20% except S/S which has 10% reduction of the cost of the skills and 30% reduction of the block cost (average let's say 20%). These reduction works only for weapon skills not for Alliance war skills or fighter's guild skills. We can have 60 reduction from accesories for stamina skills except block and bash and 84 reduction for block and bash. If we wear 5 pieces of heavy armor we can get 20% block cost reduction No reduction from sets.. Totally we can have 20% reduction for weapon skills + 60 stamina reduction from accessories (there is a cap for this reduction). For block we can have 20% reduction (50% reduction for S/S) + 84 reduction.
Spell penetration vs armor penetration
If you wear 7 pieces of light armor you have 42% spell penetration, which is a passive skill you do not have to waste a precious slot for a skill which debuf your enemy. In the other hand for stamina based skills you need a separate skill to reduce the enemy's armor. If you want to use stamina based AoE skill you should first debuff all your opponents while magicka based AoE directly has the passive bonus.
Other thoughts
Skill as Immovable should not be used unless you wear 5 pieces of heavy armor. Currently is cheaper and safer to use this skill every 8 seconds than breaking the crowd control.
I use my stamina only for blocking and it is so precious so I cannot afford to use any other skills which require stamina usage. Other people use it for sprint or for roll dodge, how do you expect that you will have enough resources to make attacks after that, as we saw that magicka return and reduce is much better that stamina's ones.
As I said I play with 7 light pieces with 900 armor (I do not use any skill to buff it up). Currently if I block a normal attack from a mob and it makes 90 damage, if I play with 2000 armor and I block the same attack I will receive 70 damage. Is it logical to lose all the good passives from the light armor in order to reduce the damage that I receive with 20? I don't think so.
Which weapon skills currently are spamable? Destro and resto staff. Why? Because they do not use the precious stamina and magicka is easily recoverable.
Another stupid thing is ultimate gain while you are not in combat. Several classes have a passive that generates 2 ultimate each time when you use a skill from a given skill line. Also the resto staff has one skill that generate ultimate. We all know what happen when an organized group load their ultimate and rush to the players.
Comparing all these things I firmly believe that two different teams worked on the magicka and stamina based builds. Otherwise it means that the devs just hate all stamina builds. Currently any wise usage of stamina is only for defending skills (block, roll dodge, crowd control break, etc).
Possible solution
Devs please give us the same sets also for stamina, give us a skill where we can trade health to stamina, a passive that reduce the armor, so stamina based AoE are viable and create another statistic which will be used for the defending moves (roll dodge, sprint, crouch, break crowd control) except block.
TL, DR
Magicka based builds are way more OP than stamina based builds. But you probably already knew that.
I will start that I play DK VR12 S/S 7 light, Magicka furnace set and Akavari Set and I am OP. Most of the people think that DK is very OP and probably it is but let me give you my 2 cents.
I leveled all weapon skills to 50 so I have some knowledge about how they work. I do not have any other class and I played Templar and Sors till lvl 10 in the beta, so some of my information about these classes can be wrong.
Let's start with my proves. I included examples which are available for all classes, not only for certain ones.
Weapon vs Spell critical
Spell critical - if you have 5 pieces of light armors you gain 10 spell critical, inner light 20 spell critical, Twilight's Embrace set 5 spell critical, Willow's Path 3 parts set 5 spell critical, + 7 critical from the weapon trait or 3.5 if we use S/S. Totally 43.5(47) spell critical.
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Weapon critical - if you have 7 pieces of medium armor you gain 21 weapon critical, I do not count Hide of the Werewolf set because it has no VR version, we can use only Night's Silence Set which gives 5 weapon critical, + 7 critical from the weapon trait or 3.5 if we use S/S. Totally 29,5(34) weapon critical.
More critical = more damage and more important faster ultimate gain.
Magicka vs stamina return
Magicka: there is a skill Equilibrium and its morph which can trade health for magicka, there are two sets: Magicka furnace (5 pieces set return 10% of your max magicka with 5 seconds cooldown) - perfect for mele magicka classes, Vestments of the Warlock (3 pieces set composed of accesories) - once per minute, when below 33% Magicka, gain 33% Max Magicka - perfect for casters.
Stamina: none
Magicka vs stamina cost reduce
Magicka - 7 pieces of light armor give 21% magicka reduce of all magicka based skills,
60 magicka reduce from accessories, 3% from Seducer set and 8 % from Worm's Raiment. Totally we can have 32% reduction of magicka based skills + 60 magicka reduction from accessories (there is a cap for this reduction).
Stamina - all weapon skills have passives for reduction with 20% except S/S which has 10% reduction of the cost of the skills and 30% reduction of the block cost (average let's say 20%). These reduction works only for weapon skills not for Alliance war skills or fighter's guild skills. We can have 60 reduction from accesories for stamina skills except block and bash and 84 reduction for block and bash. If we wear 5 pieces of heavy armor we can get 20% block cost reduction No reduction from sets.. Totally we can have 20% reduction for weapon skills + 60 stamina reduction from accessories (there is a cap for this reduction). For block we can have 20% reduction (50% reduction for S/S) + 84 reduction.
Spell penetration vs armor penetration
If you wear 7 pieces of light armor you have 42% spell penetration, which is a passive skill you do not have to waste a precious slot for a skill which debuf your enemy. In the other hand for stamina based skills you need a separate skill to reduce the enemy's armor. If you want to use stamina based AoE skill you should first debuff all your opponents while magicka based AoE directly has the passive bonus.
Other thoughts
Skill as Immovable should not be used unless you wear 5 pieces of heavy armor. Currently is cheaper and safer to use this skill every 8 seconds than breaking the crowd control.
I use my stamina only for blocking and it is so precious so I cannot afford to use any other skills which require stamina usage. Other people use it for sprint or for roll dodge, how do you expect that you will have enough resources to make attacks after that, as we saw that magicka return and reduce is much better that stamina's ones.
As I said I play with 7 light pieces with 900 armor (I do not use any skill to buff it up). Currently if I block a normal attack from a mob and it makes 90 damage, if I play with 2000 armor and I block the same attack I will receive 70 damage. Is it logical to lose all the good passives from the light armor in order to reduce the damage that I receive with 20? I don't think so.
Which weapon skills currently are spamable? Destro and resto staff. Why? Because they do not use the precious stamina and magicka is easily recoverable.
Another stupid thing is ultimate gain while you are not in combat. Several classes have a passive that generates 2 ultimate each time when you use a skill from a given skill line. Also the resto staff has one skill that generate ultimate. We all know what happen when an organized group load their ultimate and rush to the players.
Comparing all these things I firmly believe that two different teams worked on the magicka and stamina based builds. Otherwise it means that the devs just hate all stamina builds. Currently any wise usage of stamina is only for defending skills (block, roll dodge, crowd control break, etc).
Possible solution
Devs please give us the same sets also for stamina, give us a skill where we can trade health to stamina, a passive that reduce the armor, so stamina based AoE are viable and create another statistic which will be used for the defending moves (roll dodge, sprint, crouch, break crowd control) except block.
TL, DR
Magicka based builds are way more OP than stamina based builds. But you probably already knew that.
Because I can!
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Gern_Verkheart✭✭✭✭I had another thread about this here: forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/105216/stop-messing-with-the-nightblade-class-that-isn-t-the-problem#latest0 -
MrDenimChicken✭✭✭✭✭Yeah I wanted to play a 2h dragonknight with all heavy armor. Unfortunately, most of the styles and passives for stamina builds are just subpar compared to all the light armor passives as well as the magicka styles + passives. I wanted to play a badass armor wearing 2h beast with a few spells to complement that, but I can't help but feel like I'm gimping myself compared to the effectiveness of light armor and DK fire spells.
Also, I wanted to play a nightblade dual wielding daggers that played like a rogue. But...why do ALL the nightblade skills use magicka? That just doesn't even make sense. At least make some of the skills maybe CHANGE to stamina after morphing it, so the abilities will actually synergize with your stamina build.
I thought one of the main pro's of this game was supposed to be the huge build diversity. Well...where the hell is it? I honestly feel like this game has a very limited build diversity if you want to be effective after level 50. Everyone I see in cyrodil uses the same crap. Sorcs just spamming crystal shard. DKs with dark talons.
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Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
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Now I read your topic and I agree that magicka vs stamina is more imbalance than DK vs NB. The imbalance lays on the fact that 90% of DK use light armors with staffs or S/S while 90% of NB use medium armors with DW/Bow/2H. When we add some good passives that DKs have and here we have the big difference between DK and NB.Gern_Verkheart wrote: »I had another thread about this here: forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/105216/stop-messing-with-the-nightblade-class-that-isn-t-the-problem#latest
Because I can!2 -
Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭Please let the dev team who designed the magicka builds, now to design the stamina builds too
You sure, that you want stamina builds that giving you magicka?
Btw. some of the passive changes were already announced like heavy armor generates ulti faster etc.. As well certain weapon and class passives will be
changed. Whatever happenes we will see in the next 6 month.
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nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is a dangerous post, since it reveals the entire fundament of character design is flawed and any attempt at fixing it will basically bring the game back to an early beta state because everything is in the flux.
The devs can either ignore it or try and fix it and risk the entire game goes down the drain.
Maybe they should shut down the game for 6 months like FFXIV and restart it with a new balanced char design?5 -
NoMoreChillies✭✭✭✭✭
✭If this game continues down the magicka highway, my money goes elsewhere
I want balance, not everyone wearing light armor using destro/resto staff.
Beg of the devs, fix stamina before all else.Insulting people on the internet is cowardly.3 -
Baphomet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Main problem with stamina based builds is that that you use your primary resource for both damage + combat maneuvres (dodge, interupt and CC break).
One of the best, and easiest ways, to balance it out better is to start reducing the cost on some of the stamina abilities.
On top of that, mage light (+ morphs) should have its crit % lowered and wearing 5 pieces of heavy should significantly increase your melee damage compared to what it does now.Edited by Baphomet on June 1, 2014 10:50AM- The Psijic Order
- TKO
- Dominant Dominion
- The Noore0 -
Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭I think they do will change the source for certain class lines and adjust passive lines for weapons ...
Future could be that a class line like Assasin would need Stamina instead magicka.
Or that resto staff 10% damage add would be removed and added to medium armor or into a different weapon line.
There are certain things Zenimax is thinking about as well to adjust a couple things to improve magicka and stamina balancings but there is no reason to share this with us now as long the evaluation and new concept is not implemented.
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Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭duel wield blade is too low in damage and does not do enough damage to allow me to compete equaly with sorcerer and dragonights skills and magicka. zenimax please make it equal.0 -
nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I get the feeling that initially the sb were meant to be a stamia based class but because stamina is used for blocking, dodging, sprinting and stealthing they probably decided to make all class abilities spells and not differentiate between the classes.
The problem is that all the armor passives haven't been fitted to work with this system and many of the nb passives either.
For example a nb (and bosmers) get added weapon damage from stealth passives but ALL stealth attacks are spells.......1 -
NoMoreChillies✭✭✭✭✭
✭nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »
For example a nb (and bosmers) get added weapon damage from stealth passives but ALL stealth attacks are spells.......
you have a good point and it makes no sense to me why the devs made it this way, hopefully the devs fix it soon
Insulting people on the internet is cowardly.0 -
FrauPerchta✭✭✭When playing beta the aspect of ESO that came very close to making me not buy the game was the sporked Magic/Health/Stamina system. I can understand the Devs wanting to be different this system is just being different for the sake of being different and the sad part is it doesn't work well.
ESO is like the ultimate min/max game but in ESO you don't have to decide which Attribute to min/max you just dump everything into Health no matter your class.3 -
subecsanur✭✭✭nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »This is a dangerous post, since it reveals the entire fundament of character design is flawed and any attempt at fixing it will basically bring the game back to an early beta state because everything is in the flux.
The devs can either ignore it or try and fix it and risk the entire game goes down the drain.
Maybe they should shut down the game for 6 months like FFXIV and restart it with a new balanced char design?
Not a bad idea, but aren't we just like an open Beta for the console systems to sort of highlight the bugs? Flawed / unfinished what ever you want to call it.
Amazing how all this got exacerbated when they launched Craglorn and trials and it actually highlighted the flaws even more.1 -
Mortelus✭✭✭Agree, I came to this game with a build in mind, and soon found that with the armour passives and class skills all being magika based I was forced to change my initial build.
Who has time? But if we never take time how can we ever have time?2 -
Melian✭✭✭✭Finally, a specific, well supported post. Your suggestions seem reasonable too. I suspect the reason my NB seems ok is that it's primarily a magicka-using NB.
I have to wonder if they might have intended all damage dealers to be magicka based from the start. Anything else doesn't make sense at all.Edited by Melian on June 2, 2014 12:13AM0 -
Loco_Mofo✭✭✭✭✭nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »This is a dangerous post, since it reveals the entire fundament of character design is flawed and any attempt at fixing it will basically bring the game back to an early beta state because everything is in the flux.
The devs can either ignore it or try and fix it and risk the entire game goes down the drain.
Maybe they should shut down the game for 6 months like FFXIV and restart it with a new balanced char design?
At this point, they should seriously consider it.5 -
flguy147ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Probably agree they almost need to shut it down too and rebuild it. They are not going to be able to just patch in fixes and keep the player base. There are way too many things wrong with the game, not just bugs and broken mechanics but huge core design flaws that need to be fixed or completely redone. That wont happen keeping the game live and just patching stuff in. Right now I believe that maybe the only way to save the game. Also relaunch with more classes, 4 classes is not enough class choices. Yes you have weapon skill lines but that is what should add the competitive advantage over other games but 4 classes is weak for any MMO.1
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Enkshar✭✭Its a really good post, hope zos read this and take some actions. The only thing i would add is the fact that class skills use magicka so most Stamina builds still need magicka to fuel some of their skills, so magicka is still a mayor resource for them.
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Emperor✭✭✭✭@Bashev
I agree with most of what you said, but I just wanted to point out one thing. I am pretty sure even skills that use stamina are still effected by the spell crit % chance. The only thing that is effected by the weapon crit % chance is when you use light/heavy attacks with any weapon.If you like small group PvP (2-4 players) and solo PvP check out my videohttps://youtube.com/watch?v=jechGImtFio
SPOILER: The first 40 seconds of the video contains a scene from the final Molag Bal boss fight!
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Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I gave up. I couldn't find any working stamina build in PvP (probably in PvE too). I spent 60k for different items and respects but no way to be competitive in PvP using any single stamina skill more than 2 times. Probably the only useful build is with bow because you hit from range and you do not need your stamina for block, roll dodge, etc.
Another stupid fact is that whirlwind can be blocked, while impulse cannot be blocked. We all know the bomb groups who use impulse and when 15 people use that skill twice for a 1-1.5 seconds that means 30 * (150-200 average damage) so you are instantly dead.Because I can!2 -
vokage89✭✭✭lol or they could seriously lower the cost of everything ... kinda lame always running out of magica or stam... so you are just forced to swing away and die.. soon as you cannot dodge or block anymore as a melee.. your dead.... but i feel like they should do this for all of it tho... spam away .. by all means.. but make the classes better at what they do.... i am also one of those melee guys that wants to charge in and swing away.. but what happens... you get face rolled... i think they should throw buffs on classes that are true melee(or caster) .. give em a class % from dmg while wearing heavy or something .. casters dont seem to need much more dmg at this point...but im sure zeni could think of something...range of spells.. who knows... med armor also another % on overall dmg reduct... it could rly use a sneak speed buff too... could be nb class only .. pretty much what i think i am trying to say here.. is that if you are going to put classes in the game...that lead to a certain style of gameplay. let them be good at that.. ppl playing nbs want to be a sneaky fast cull the weak backstabbers.. most dks and temps want to charge in and have a good fight... sorcs want to throw fireballs and and see explosions... nbs want to sneak up on the the fireball throwing sorcs and kill em.. dks and temps want to walk through it..and the sorc hopes he kills everyone who tries...
make a PTR test it out.. i bet.. this would be some real pvp.. not a bunch of ranged fights while melee cower in the back being able to do 4-6 skills b4 you are pretty much useless .. need some action
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There's also a 5% chance to negate spell cost on the Magnus 3 piece set.Magicka vs stamina return
Magicka: there is a skill Equilibrium and its morph which can trade health for magicka, there are two sets: Magicka furnace (5 pieces set return 10% of your max magicka with 5 seconds cooldown) - perfect for mele magicka classes, Vestments of the Warlock (3 pieces set composed of accesories) - once per minute, when below 33% Magicka, gain 33% Max Magicka - perfect for casters.
Magicka vs stamina cost reduce
Magicka - 7 pieces of light armor give 21% magicka reduce of all magicka based skills,
60 magicka reduce from accessories, 3% from Seducer set and 8 % from Worm's Raiment. Totally we can have 32% reduction of magicka based skills + 60 magicka reduction from accessories (there is a cap for this reduction).0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭lol or they could seriously lower the cost of everything ... kinda lame always running out of magica or stam... so you are just forced to swing away and die.. soon as you cannot dodge or block anymore as a melee.. your dead.... but i feel like they should do this for all of it tho... spam away .. by all means.. but make the classes better at what they do.... i am also one of those melee guys that wants to charge in and swing away.. but what happens... you get face rolled... i think they should throw buffs on classes that are true melee(or caster) .. give em a class % from dmg while wearing heavy or something .. casters dont seem to need much more dmg at this point...but im sure zeni could think of something...range of spells.. who knows... med armor also another % on overall dmg reduct... it could rly use a sneak speed buff too... could be nb class only .. pretty much what i think i am trying to say here.. is that if you are going to put classes in the game...that lead to a certain style of gameplay. let them be good at that.. ppl playing nbs want to be a sneaky fast cull the weak backstabbers.. most dks and temps want to charge in and have a good fight... sorcs want to throw fireballs and and see explosions... nbs want to sneak up on the the fireball throwing sorcs and kill em.. dks and temps want to walk through it..and the sorc hopes he kills everyone who tries...
make a PTR test it out.. i bet.. this would be some real pvp.. not a bunch of ranged fights while melee cower in the back being able to do 4-6 skills b4 you are pretty much useless .. need some action
well said, and insightfull.
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Ser Lobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm happy you took the time to do the math and put it down in a form even someone as mathematically challenged as myself can understand.
Many players make outrageous claims in their posts which do little to support their argument for those more inclined to disbelieve them. But hard numbers are much harder to argue against.
Thanks again!Ruze Aulus. Mayor of Dhalmora. Archer, hunter, assassin. Nightblade.
Gral. Mountain Terror. Barbarian, marauder, murderer. Nightblade.
Na'Djin. Knight-Blade. Knight, vanguard, defender. Nightblade.
XBOX NARuze is a veteran of the PC Beta, lived through the year one drought, survived the buy-to-play conversion, and has stepped foot in the hells known as Craglorn. He mained a nightlbade when nightblades weren't good, and has never worn a robe. He converted from PC during the console betas, and hasn't regretted it a moment since.
He'd rank ESO:TU (in it's current state) a 4.8 out of 5, loving the game almost entirely.
This is an multiplayer game. I should be able to log in, join a dungeon, join a battleground, queue for a dolmen or world boss or delve, teleport in, play for 20 minutes, and not worry about getting kicked, failing to join, having perfect voice coms, or being unable to complete content because someone's lagging behind. Group Finder and matchmaking is broken. Take a note from Destiny and build a system that allows from drop-in/drop-out functionality and quick play.0 -
OkieDokie✭✭✭Maybe you missed the changes in stamina builds.
Medium armor will include a 2% cost reduction per piece for stamina abilities as well. Check the developer discussion section.
Someone gave the idea of getting rid of spell and weapon crit and putting them together. It would solve this as well.People keep saying they heard of a friend of friend of friend of their neighbors that plays a NB and can catch up with dks and sorcs and this guy just never shows up. He would be a rock star if he existed.1 -
Ser Lobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Maybe you missed the changes in stamina builds.
Medium armor will include a 2% cost reduction per piece for stamina abilities as well. Check the developer discussion section.
Someone gave the idea of getting rid of spell and weapon crit and putting them together. It would solve this as well.
Just turning it into a basic 'crit' percentage, skipping the separate lines and their confusing ties between class skills, staves, melee weapons, etc?
That might be a really good change.Ruze Aulus. Mayor of Dhalmora. Archer, hunter, assassin. Nightblade.
Gral. Mountain Terror. Barbarian, marauder, murderer. Nightblade.
Na'Djin. Knight-Blade. Knight, vanguard, defender. Nightblade.
XBOX NARuze is a veteran of the PC Beta, lived through the year one drought, survived the buy-to-play conversion, and has stepped foot in the hells known as Craglorn. He mained a nightlbade when nightblades weren't good, and has never worn a robe. He converted from PC during the console betas, and hasn't regretted it a moment since.
He'd rank ESO:TU (in it's current state) a 4.8 out of 5, loving the game almost entirely.
This is an multiplayer game. I should be able to log in, join a dungeon, join a battleground, queue for a dolmen or world boss or delve, teleport in, play for 20 minutes, and not worry about getting kicked, failing to join, having perfect voice coms, or being unable to complete content because someone's lagging behind. Group Finder and matchmaking is broken. Take a note from Destiny and build a system that allows from drop-in/drop-out functionality and quick play.0 -
Gern_Verkheart✭✭✭✭ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »Maybe you missed the changes in stamina builds.
Medium armor will include a 2% cost reduction per piece for stamina abilities as well. Check the developer discussion section.
Someone gave the idea of getting rid of spell and weapon crit and putting them together. It would solve this as well.
Just turning it into a basic 'crit' percentage, skipping the separate lines and their confusing ties between class skills, staves, melee weapons, etc?
That might be a really good change.
As with everything: it depends on how they do it.
Would your crit chance be brought as low as it currently is for spell crit? Which would hurt melee. Or would it be as high as it currently is for weapon crit? Giving magicka users another significant buff.
Really, no matter how this would be implemented: it would hurt stamina builds.1
