Please Zenimax, open your PTS for the next updates

driosketch

SirAndy wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

In fact, we were locked into Craglorn and couldn't even leave the zone (except with a hack of sorts).

If by hack you mean taking the wagon back to your faction, and then walking places to activate way shrines. I'm actually surprised how many didn't know that.

True, you couldn't way shrine back by default as none of the other way shrines were active. And you couldn't get a template into the PvP campaign it seemed. And to get to the vet zones you would have needed to do all the main quests from the first one. But technically we weren't locked there, and that's before you consider our previous characters that were still saved.

Well, it wasn't at all obvious how to get back to your alliance zone and even if you did, as you mentioned, none of the wayshrines were discovered so one would have to run through all the zones again and to get to any of the VR zones you would have to complete the main quest again.
For all practical purposes, we were locked into Craglorn.

Yes, my old characters were still there, with the exception of my main which was in Cyrodiil when the PTS went offline (remember that farewell party at the imperial city? ) and somehow wouldn't load after Craglorn was copied to the PTS.

Instant crash every time i tried to load that character.

Okay, well I feel bad for you on that last part then. I left two characters in Cyrodiil, one in DC and the other AD, and was able to load into them both. ( I was testing the new NPC V5 boost versus the higher player stat boost.)

vicNBitis

Open the private forum as well.

Thanks.

dolmen

@NordJitsu - thanks, you saved me the trouble of responding. Another agree to you.

LonePirate

@DewiMorgan‌

I never said the bug reports were ignored. I said the issues (the bugs themselves) were ignored. I logged several issues during the Beta tests in November and January and those bugs were still present in the game when it launched on March 30 and re-launched on April 3 here is the US (April. 4 elsewhere). ZOS definitely ignored those issues. I cannot speak to whether they ignored the bug reports themselves.

NordJitsu

vicNBitis wrote: »

Open the private forum as well.

Thanks.

Now this is something that would be a horrible idea.

vicNBitis

NordJitsu wrote: »

Now this is something that would be a horrible idea.

Why? Because then we'd be able to see which is the incompetent party? Don't worry. My money's on "Not the PTS testers".

SirAndy

NordJitsu wrote: »

vicNBitis wrote: »

Open the private forum as well.

Now this is something that would be a horrible idea.

The Psijic Order forums are the last bastion of "normalness" on this site.

Please leave the "lolz, n00b u canz nevuh beat meh, i noz lolz, n00b" to the main forums.

NordJitsu

@vicNBitis‌

They could start a Public Test Server forum. That'd be fine.

But the Psijic Order forum should be reserved for the Psijic Order.

driosketch

SirAndy wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

vicNBitis wrote: »

Open the private forum as well.

Now this is something that would be a horrible idea.

The Psijic Order forums are the last bastion of "normalness" on this site.

Please leave the "lolz, n00b u canz nevuh beat meh, i noz lolz, n00b" to the main forums.

Double agree. It's like the other tester group forums that never opened to everyone.

Beside, all the bug discussions have ended up on the main forum anyways.

vicNBitis

True. They could. But I(and I'm sure others not in PO) would like the curtain pulled back. I want to see all the plaintive posts begging Zenimax to focus on class balance. They exist, right?

DewiMorgan

LonePirate wrote: »

@DewiMorgan‌
I never said the bug reports were ignored. I said the issues (the bugs themselves) were ignored.

You might say "Ignored", I would say "not fixed by release".

To me, there's a very extreme difference in meaning here.

Edit: that said, I can understand the incorrect interpretation. And that's why I think an open quest tracker would help resolve that feeling of being ignored.

SirAndy

vicNBitis wrote: »

They exist, right?

Yes, they do. Lots of 'em, ever after the great purge when the forums where consolidated for launch.

That whole idea that all of the PTS was only there to find exploits for themselves is really quite insulting ...

Skirmish840

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We will be, @Angelyne.

YAY....

DewiMorgan

SirAndy wrote: »

That whole idea that all of the PTS was only there to find exploits for themselves is really quite insulting

But hidden behind a curtain, people will think the worst. So openness is best to stop these feelings from arising, whether it's open bug trackers, open PTS server, open bug testing forums...

vicNBitis

SirAndy wrote: »

vicNBitis wrote: »

They exist, right?

Yes, they do. Lots of 'em, ever after the great purge when the forums where consolidated for launch.

That whole idea that all of the PTS was only there to find exploits for themselves is really quite insulting ...

Then there should be no problem opening the private forum. The loons are already going wild with the conspiracy theories about what PTSers do exactly. Regardless of what's there I think it would engender some positive feelings for Zenimax. Which would be a pleasant change.

kevlarto_ESO

yea lack of testing is coming back to bite you in the rear, I know some people love to live on a test server if they can.. I hope you do get it opened up for everyone, in house and small groups never really gets the job done, they have a place for getting it ready for the masses, but the only good testing is testing by the masses, reveals so much more..

Korah_Eaglecry

Noobie wrote: »

the thing with PTS i believe is that they have a small number of people in it. If you open it too the public lots of people will test it and you will actually see game performance issues before patching to the live, and also 1000 emails a day from players on bugs would be annoying if you worked at ZoS.

Sometimes annoying can be of significant use. Especially when you want something done that needs to get done.

driosketch

vicNBitis wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

vicNBitis wrote: »

They exist, right?

Yes, they do. Lots of 'em, ever after the great purge when the forums where consolidated for launch.

That whole idea that all of the PTS was only there to find exploits for themselves is really quite insulting ...

Then there should be no problem opening the private forum. The loons are already going wild with the conspiracy theories about what PTSers do exactly. Regardless of what's there I think it would engender some positive feelings for Zenimax. Which would be a pleasant change.

The problem is that this forum isn't purely test discussion. It's also a place of bonding for the Psijic Order. It's like some asking, are you cheating on your taxes? No? Then you should have no problem inviting us into your home to look around.

Also many of the test discussions rely on a shared experience that those on the outside wouldn't get and yet would be second guessing. If you see a post asking to nerf bolt escape or hidden blade, what's your frame of reference on how those skills work on live versus in the beta? Do you assume those skills were untouched?

We've had some heated discussions, but for the most part could remain civil and constructive. On the main forums I see a lot of negativity for the sake of negativity. People soo caught up in their own confirmation bias, they can't see reason. Oh, and the name calling.

Frankly, people are going to choose to believe what they want to believe. I don't even care anymore. It's not worth the cost when it won't change any minds.

vicNBitis

Ahh, I see. The PO are special. Well, the population of the PO is about to explode. Figuratively and literally. The special-ness dies when the PTS is public.

If I see a post with zero evidence it'd have the same impact it has now. Zero. But if I see a post with evidence(combat logs) that is pretty damned similar to what I see with my own eyes today then, yeah, I'm perfectly content with my frame of reference.

But I don't care if Zenimax hides the forum for whatever reason. I just think that mindset has worked out pretty horribly for them so far so a change might be in order. If they disagree so be it.

Arsenic_Touch

NerfEverything wrote: »

About time! The current PTS players are not doing their job. How do you accidentally add a 1.5sec GLOBAL cooldown to a class skill by accident?

Just fyi, that wasn't an accident. They said it was intended due to how the skill was being used but due to complaints on the forum, they're reverting the change and instead adding a higher cost.

SirAndy

vicNBitis wrote: »

Ahh, I see. The PO are special. Well, the population of the PO is about to explode. Figuratively and literally. The special-ness dies when the PTS is public.

@vicNBitis
The Psijic Order is special in a way since it's a small group of players (started out as 0.016% of the beta testers) that has spent months of their time testing ESO on the PTS server.
It is a tight knit group that has transitioned into the live game as the Psijic Order guild.

@driosketch point is simple, for us, the Psijic forum is much more than just a PTS feedback forum.
I don't know if you were part of the beta weekends, but back then each tester group had their own private forum. The Psijic forum worked (and still works) very much the same way.

This isn't some sort of "elite" complex i'm displaying here, a lot of us simply enjoy the camaraderie there in contrast to the mostly negative vibe on the main forums.

NordJitsu

vicNBitis wrote: »

True. They could. But I(and I'm sure others not in PO) would like the curtain pulled back. I want to see all the plaintive posts begging Zenimax to focus on class balance. They exist, right?

@vicNBitis‌

If you want I could quote a bunch of posts from myself warning ZOS that this is going to become "Dragon Knights Online" and that they desperately need to bring the other classes into balance. Or I could post pages of posts from Isarii about how the Restoring Spirit nerf was going to ruin Templars. Or an even greater number of posts warning that Nigh Blades are broken. Or about 5 full threads about how awful Daedric Summoning is.

In fact, class balance was one of the things I focused on the most in my testing time because its something I'm always very concerned with.

They listened on some things for sure. They listened to my feedback about Flying Blade, though they didn't nerf it hard enough so its getting nerfed again. They listened to people's complaints about a ridiculously over powered Werewolf DK build that got nerfed.

There's plenty of things that got ignored though. They didn't listen to complaints that Impulse was literally the only good skill in the Destruction Staff line; that many stamina based abilities need to be buffed (in fact several, like Cleave, were nerfed when they used to be good); they didn't listen to me about Talons (though they thankfully fixed it now); they've still done nothing about Templar magicka management; they've done nothing about Daedric pets being laughably horrible; they've done nothing about many of the other crazy DK abilities or buffed the other classes enough to bring them in line.

Its all there and I'm happy to talk about it since I'm allowed to now.

All in all I'd say ZOS listened to about 10% of the feedback on balance. And its actually probably lower than that since in some cases they did the opposite of what was recommended to them (like increasing the cost of Destructive Touch.)

vicNBitis

I don't doubt anything you've said but I'd prefer to see it for myself. I don't care quite as much about what the PTSers said as what was said by ZOS in response. But I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the PTSers dealt with the same non-dev, CSR people that everyone else does. So the usual vetted, non-committal, vague, indefinite drek we've all come to know and love.

zaria

LonePirate wrote: »

I have heard from a few PTS testers that ZOS often ignores issues reported by them unless the issue is a massive one. Apparently ZOS pays as much attention to the bugs logged by the PTS crew as it pays to the bugs we all log within the game.

I have learned that if you want a problem fixed, you need to get a topic about pushed to the top of the ESO Reddit forum. Strange but true.

Might be that bugs has to reach an critical mass before they are acted on, if one player get a bug at one place but nobody else

DewiMorgan wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

That whole idea that all of the PTS was only there to find exploits for themselves is really quite insulting

But hidden behind a curtain, people will think the worst. So openness is best to stop these feelings from arising, whether it's open bug trackers, open PTS server, open bug testing forums...

More testers will make it harder for an group to keep an exploit hidden, it will also give an larger bug database making it easier to find bugs,

JD2013

Opening the PT Servers is a REALLY good idea. Low population of the test server means less people to report the bugs.

dolmen

What the PTS members posting on this thread are not mentioning, and why I think opening PTS to the "public" won't accomplish much is this.

The obligation to test won't be the primary thought on anyone's mind. I really doubt anyone who wants this "public" test server is going to do the below. I expect most will treat it as a playpen/sandbox there for them to mess with and little more.

This is the PTS experience:

Log on. Start doing some activity, 5 minutes in, fill out a survey. 5 minutes later, fill out a survey.

Do some crafting. Fill out a survey, one or more times as you do.

Do some exploring. Fill out a survey. Report a bug. Fight mob. Fill out a survey. Fight another mob, see a bug. Report a bug, mob respawns and kills you while you are doing the report. Fill out a survey after you res. Start back to where you were, fill out a survey.

Take a break for RL. When you get back, fill out a survey.

Enter a dungeon, fill out a survey. Proceed to clear the dungeon, fill out a survey every few mobs. Find a bug, report the bug, mob respawns, you die. Res and start again, fill out a survey.

Your pack is full, return to town and hit the bank. Fill out a survey.

Give some feedback on something you think will be nice to have, fill out survey.

Find a chest, open it or not, fill out a survey.

Start a quest, fill out a survey. Read and listen to every single word through every single option in the quest dialogs. Put in a bug report for grammar or spelling. Put in another bug report on the dialog, and another and yet another. Fill out a survey every 5-10 minutes while doing the quest. Complete the quest, fill out a survey. Level up, fill out a survey.

Start another quest, get jammed up because it's bugged. Do a bug report. Fill out a survey.

Make an achievement, fill out a survey.

Do bug reports on skills etc. that were not working as expected. Fill out a survey.

Join in PVP. Fill out a survey. Find a bug. Start the bug report. Player comes by and kills you. Finish the report. Res and fill out a survey, run back.

Logout. Fill out the post game session survey, takes about 20 minutes.

Apom

All saw on streams were guilds just running dungeons and perfecting their mage/AOE farms. Watched ER for like 3 hours and they never filled out any surveys. LoL one of them wants people to pay him so he can play the game??? [snip] is wrong with people...

[edited for profanity bypass]

JKorr

I even gave them feedback on the surveys. Akatosh knows some of those questions were not exactly clear.

dolmen

Apom wrote: »

All saw on streams were guilds just running dungeons and perfecting their mage/AOE farms. Watched ER for like 3 hours and they never filled out any surveys. LoL one of them wants people to pay him so he can play the game??? [snip] is wrong with people...

Not seeing the survey on a stream I can believe because it was an add on from ZOS and you could disable it. It would ruin the impact of a stream for that to pop up all of the time, regardless of the content.

I won't make the claim that all PTS members were testing "saints". PTS is a small human population, but human all the same.

But you bring up a point, opening PTS to the "public" will be just more of what you have noted, and as useless.

Edit: Fixed bad engrish.

[edited to remove quote]

vicNBitis

JKorr wrote: »

If it is new content that will be tested, knowing what was said 2 years ago isn't going to make much difference, imo

W.T. Grant went bankrupt nearly 40 years ago but it's still an interesting case study. You never know. Maybe the Zenimax ESO PTS timeline will be in an appendix of a college textbook or two. What went wrong and when? Yeah, probably not.