Please Zenimax, open your PTS for the next updates

driosketch · May 2014

SirAndy wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

In fact, we were locked into Craglorn and couldn't even leave the zone (except with a hack of sorts).

If by hack you mean taking the wagon back to your faction, and then walking places to activate way shrines. I'm actually surprised how many didn't know that.

True, you couldn't way shrine back by default as none of the other way shrines were active. And you couldn't get a template into the PvP campaign it seemed. And to get to the vet zones you would have needed to do all the main quests from the first one. But technically we weren't locked there, and that's before you consider our previous characters that were still saved.

Well, it wasn't at all obvious how to get back to your alliance zone and even if you did, as you mentioned, none of the wayshrines were discovered so one would have to run through all the zones again and to get to any of the VR zones you would have to complete the main quest again.
For all practical purposes, we were locked into Craglorn.

Yes, my old characters were still there, with the exception of my main which was in Cyrodiil when the PTS went offline (remember that farewell party at the imperial city? ) and somehow wouldn't load after Craglorn was copied to the PTS.

Instant crash every time i tried to load that character.

Okay, well I feel bad for you on that last part then. I left two characters in Cyrodiil, one in DC and the other AD, and was able to load into them both. ( I was testing the new NPC V5 boost versus the higher player stat boost.)

vicNBitis · May 2014

Open the private forum as well.

Thanks.

dolmen · May 2014

@NordJitsu - thanks, you saved me the trouble of responding. Another agree to you.

LonePirate · May 2014

@DewiMorgan‌

I never said the bug reports were ignored. I said the issues (the bugs themselves) were ignored. I logged several issues during the Beta tests in November and January and those bugs were still present in the game when it launched on March 30 and re-launched on April 3 here is the US (April. 4 elsewhere). ZOS definitely ignored those issues. I cannot speak to whether they ignored the bug reports themselves.

NordJitsu · May 2014

vicNBitis wrote: »

Open the private forum as well.

Thanks.

Now this is something that would be a horrible idea.

vicNBitis · May 2014

NordJitsu wrote: »

Now this is something that would be a horrible idea.

Why? Because then we'd be able to see which is the incompetent party? Don't worry. My money's on "Not the PTS testers".

SirAndy · May 2014

NordJitsu wrote: »

vicNBitis wrote: »

Open the private forum as well.

Now this is something that would be a horrible idea.

The Psijic Order forums are the last bastion of "normalness" on this site.

Please leave the "lolz, n00b u canz nevuh beat meh, i noz lolz, n00b" to the main forums.

NordJitsu · May 2014

@vicNBitis‌

They could start a Public Test Server forum. That'd be fine.

But the Psijic Order forum should be reserved for the Psijic Order.

driosketch · May 2014

SirAndy wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

vicNBitis wrote: »

Open the private forum as well.

Now this is something that would be a horrible idea.

The Psijic Order forums are the last bastion of "normalness" on this site.

Please leave the "lolz, n00b u canz nevuh beat meh, i noz lolz, n00b" to the main forums.

Double agree. It's like the other tester group forums that never opened to everyone.

Beside, all the bug discussions have ended up on the main forum anyways.

vicNBitis · May 2014

True. They could. But I(and I'm sure others not in PO) would like the curtain pulled back. I want to see all the plaintive posts begging Zenimax to focus on class balance. They exist, right?

DewiMorgan · May 2014

LonePirate wrote: »

@DewiMorgan‌
I never said the bug reports were ignored. I said the issues (the bugs themselves) were ignored.

You might say "Ignored", I would say "not fixed by release".

To me, there's a very extreme difference in meaning here.

Edit: that said, I can understand the incorrect interpretation. And that's why I think an open quest tracker would help resolve that feeling of being ignored.

SirAndy · May 2014

vicNBitis wrote: »

They exist, right?

Yes, they do. Lots of 'em, ever after the great purge when the forums where consolidated for launch.

That whole idea that all of the PTS was only there to find exploits for themselves is really quite insulting ...

Skirmish840 · May 2014

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We will be, @Angelyne.

YAY....

DewiMorgan · May 2014

SirAndy wrote: »

That whole idea that all of the PTS was only there to find exploits for themselves is really quite insulting

But hidden behind a curtain, people will think the worst. So openness is best to stop these feelings from arising, whether it's open bug trackers, open PTS server, open bug testing forums...

vicNBitis · May 2014

SirAndy wrote: »

vicNBitis wrote: »

They exist, right?

Yes, they do. Lots of 'em, ever after the great purge when the forums where consolidated for launch.

That whole idea that all of the PTS was only there to find exploits for themselves is really quite insulting ...

Then there should be no problem opening the private forum. The loons are already going wild with the conspiracy theories about what PTSers do exactly. Regardless of what's there I think it would engender some positive feelings for Zenimax. Which would be a pleasant change.

kevlarto_ESO · May 2014

yea lack of testing is coming back to bite you in the rear, I know some people love to live on a test server if they can.. I hope you do get it opened up for everyone, in house and small groups never really gets the job done, they have a place for getting it ready for the masses, but the only good testing is testing by the masses, reveals so much more..

Korah_Eaglecry · May 2014

Noobie wrote: »

the thing with PTS i believe is that they have a small number of people in it. If you open it too the public lots of people will test it and you will actually see game performance issues before patching to the live, and also 1000 emails a day from players on bugs would be annoying if you worked at ZoS.

Sometimes annoying can be of significant use. Especially when you want something done that needs to get done.

driosketch · May 2014

vicNBitis wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

vicNBitis wrote: »

They exist, right?

Yes, they do. Lots of 'em, ever after the great purge when the forums where consolidated for launch.

That whole idea that all of the PTS was only there to find exploits for themselves is really quite insulting ...

Then there should be no problem opening the private forum. The loons are already going wild with the conspiracy theories about what PTSers do exactly. Regardless of what's there I think it would engender some positive feelings for Zenimax. Which would be a pleasant change.

The problem is that this forum isn't purely test discussion. It's also a place of bonding for the Psijic Order. It's like some asking, are you cheating on your taxes? No? Then you should have no problem inviting us into your home to look around.

Also many of the test discussions rely on a shared experience that those on the outside wouldn't get and yet would be second guessing. If you see a post asking to nerf bolt escape or hidden blade, what's your frame of reference on how those skills work on live versus in the beta? Do you assume those skills were untouched?

We've had some heated discussions, but for the most part could remain civil and constructive. On the main forums I see a lot of negativity for the sake of negativity. People soo caught up in their own confirmation bias, they can't see reason. Oh, and the name calling.

Frankly, people are going to choose to believe what they want to believe. I don't even care anymore. It's not worth the cost when it won't change any minds.

vicNBitis · May 2014

Ahh, I see. The PO are special. Well, the population of the PO is about to explode. Figuratively and literally. The special-ness dies when the PTS is public.

If I see a post with zero evidence it'd have the same impact it has now. Zero. But if I see a post with evidence(combat logs) that is pretty damned similar to what I see with my own eyes today then, yeah, I'm perfectly content with my frame of reference.

But I don't care if Zenimax hides the forum for whatever reason. I just think that mindset has worked out pretty horribly for them so far so a change might be in order. If they disagree so be it.

Arsenic_Touch · May 2014

NerfEverything wrote: »

About time! The current PTS players are not doing their job. How do you accidentally add a 1.5sec GLOBAL cooldown to a class skill by accident?

Just fyi, that wasn't an accident. They said it was intended due to how the skill was being used but due to complaints on the forum, they're reverting the change and instead adding a higher cost.

SirAndy · May 2014

vicNBitis wrote: »

Ahh, I see. The PO are special. Well, the population of the PO is about to explode. Figuratively and literally. The special-ness dies when the PTS is public.

@vicNBitis
The Psijic Order is special in a way since it's a small group of players (started out as 0.016% of the beta testers) that has spent months of their time testing ESO on the PTS server.
It is a tight knit group that has transitioned into the live game as the Psijic Order guild.

@driosketch point is simple, for us, the Psijic forum is much more than just a PTS feedback forum.
I don't know if you were part of the beta weekends, but back then each tester group had their own private forum. The Psijic forum worked (and still works) very much the same way.

This isn't some sort of "elite" complex i'm displaying here, a lot of us simply enjoy the camaraderie there in contrast to the mostly negative vibe on the main forums.

NordJitsu · May 2014

vicNBitis wrote: »

True. They could. But I(and I'm sure others not in PO) would like the curtain pulled back. I want to see all the plaintive posts begging Zenimax to focus on class balance. They exist, right?

@vicNBitis‌

If you want I could quote a bunch of posts from myself warning ZOS that this is going to become "Dragon Knights Online" and that they desperately need to bring the other classes into balance. Or I could post pages of posts from Isarii about how the Restoring Spirit nerf was going to ruin Templars. Or an even greater number of posts warning that Nigh Blades are broken. Or about 5 full threads about how awful Daedric Summoning is.

In fact, class balance was one of the things I focused on the most in my testing time because its something I'm always very concerned with.

They listened on some things for sure. They listened to my feedback about Flying Blade, though they didn't nerf it hard enough so its getting nerfed again. They listened to people's complaints about a ridiculously over powered Werewolf DK build that got nerfed.

There's plenty of things that got ignored though. They didn't listen to complaints that Impulse was literally the only good skill in the Destruction Staff line; that many stamina based abilities need to be buffed (in fact several, like Cleave, were nerfed when they used to be good); they didn't listen to me about Talons (though they thankfully fixed it now); they've still done nothing about Templar magicka management; they've done nothing about Daedric pets being laughably horrible; they've done nothing about many of the other crazy DK abilities or buffed the other classes enough to bring them in line.

Its all there and I'm happy to talk about it since I'm allowed to now.

All in all I'd say ZOS listened to about 10% of the feedback on balance. And its actually probably lower than that since in some cases they did the opposite of what was recommended to them (like increasing the cost of Destructive Touch.)

vicNBitis · May 2014

I don't doubt anything you've said but I'd prefer to see it for myself. I don't care quite as much about what the PTSers said as what was said by ZOS in response. But I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the PTSers dealt with the same non-dev, CSR people that everyone else does. So the usual vetted, non-committal, vague, indefinite drek we've all come to know and love.

DewiMorgan · May 2014

driosketch wrote: »

The problem is that this forum isn't purely test discussion. It's also a place of bonding for the Psijic Order. It's like some asking, are you cheating on your taxes? No? Then you should have no problem inviting us into your home to look around.

And there is the injustice: the PO gets to keep this "home" forums for "bonding", but the rest of us testers didn't keep ours? We had to go elsewhere when the game opened: so should you.

It should be opened up - or better, replaced by a "PTS discussion board" - once the PTS server is.

Anything else would be unfair, divisive, and a slap in the face for both other beta testers, and for the non-beta players who will test on the PTS.

PO players got their monkey: that is the only perk you were promised, so be grateful you also got to keep your bonus forum for as long as you did.

SirAndy wrote: »

The Psijic Order is special in a way since it's a small group of players (started out as 0.016% of the beta testers) that has spent months of their time testing ESO on the PTS server.
It is a tight knit group that has transitioned into the live game as the Psijic Order guild.

@driosketch point is simple, for us, the Psijic forum is much more than just a PTS feedback forum.
I don't know if you were part of the beta weekends, but back then each tester group had their own private forum. The Psijic forum worked (and still works) very much the same way.

This isn't some sort of "elite" complex I'm displaying here, a lot of us simply enjoy the camaraderie there in contrast to the mostly negative vibe on the main forums.

Could you really write that with a straight face, @SirAndy? Can you try writing it out again, but replace "Psijic Order" with "white people" and see if it doesn't stick in your craw?

Yes, you are being elitist, and it's the same unpleasant elitism that we see time and again by PO members - I've seen far worse than this, up to a PO emmber demanding a discount in a trade!

Elitism is:
- not wanting the "common people" into your "special place".
- having a perk that you don't want others to have.
- believing that you are "special".

Elitism has a specific emotional feeling to it, too: "camaraderie".

What you are feeling there is the exact sensation of elitism, entitlement. It's hard to accept that you can be acting in an elitist way, but please - reread your post: it absolutely *drips* with it.

When rereading, remember to read it from the mindset of an outsider - a black person, say - reading what a white person is saying about their barber's, which is "much more than just a barber, it's a place to bond as we get our hair cut... allowing black people in would destroy that feeling".

SirAndy · May 2014

DewiMorgan wrote: »

... try writing it out again, but replace "Psijic Order" with "white people" and see if it doesn't stick in your craw? ... a black person, say - reading what a white person is saying about their barber's, which is "much more than just a barber, it's a place to bond as we get our hair cut... allowing black people in would destroy that feeling" ...

@DewiMorgan
Wow, just wow ... You don't know anything about me, my background or the color of my skin and yet here you are, calling me a racist on a public forum.
All because i can post in a forum you don't have access to.

This has to be the absolute low point of anything i have read here as of yet and it is also a prefect example of why most of the PTS testers stay away from the main forums.

I'm at a complete loss of words, for once ...

driosketch · May 2014

@DewiMorgan‌

One, I remember my old tester group's subforum wasn't very active. Two, a couple of the test groups were brought in whole to the PO, so that became their forum as well. Three, those forums were never opened up to everyone. If they were to shut the PO forum down and replace it with a PTS forum, I would prefer it to just allowing everyone into the existing one.

And the fact that you went out of your way to misunderstand SirAndy's post and equate it with racism... yeah, I doubt opening up the Psijic forums would be a very productive exercise.

DewiMorgan · May 2014

SirAndy wrote: »

Wow, just wow ... You don't know anything about me, my background or the color of my skin and yet here you are, calling me a racist on a public forum.

Strawman, much? Do not put words in my mouth. I'm calling you an elitist, not a racist.

My point was not that you are a racist but that I presume you are not racist: that you will feel that elitism based on race is unacceptable. And I expect you feel the same about elitism based on gender, disability, sexuality, and all other attributes which none of us can help.

What, then, makes your own PO-membership elitism acceptable?

You call yourself "special", argue that the "commoners" not be allowed into your private areas, argue that you deserve your private areas when nobody else has them, ... then are claiming not to be elitist.

Please: reread your post. Understand the hypocrisy and elitism.

DewiMorgan · May 2014

driosketch wrote: »

And the fact that you went out of your way to misunderstand SirAndy's post and equate it with racism...

I understood it perfectly: you are both being elitist, clinging to your privileges.

I could say:
"The fact that sirAndy went out of his way to misunderstand my post, and claim I accused him of racism - yeah, I don't think letting SirAndy out of the PO forums would be productive." - but that would be as arrogant as you are being.

Why should I not call you POers out on your persistent hypocrisy and elitism?

Why can I not draw parallels to other forms of hypocrisy, in an effort to show you how wrongheaded you are being about this? How else should I illustrate it so that you can see? Help me here: how would *you* have phrased it?

Or do you feel that your own form of elitism and cliqueyness is somehow OK, even though all other types are not? How so? What makes it OK to you? Is it just because you are on the inside?

vicNBitis · May 2014

Geez. They weren't equating anything with racism or calling anyone a racist. They were simply illustrating the absurd by being extra absurd. I don't think Aristotle ever wrote about it but it's a common enough tactic on the interwebs.

zaria · May 2014

LonePirate wrote: »

I have heard from a few PTS testers that ZOS often ignores issues reported by them unless the issue is a massive one. Apparently ZOS pays as much attention to the bugs logged by the PTS crew as it pays to the bugs we all log within the game.

I have learned that if you want a problem fixed, you need to get a topic about pushed to the top of the ESO Reddit forum. Strange but true.

Might be that bugs has to reach an critical mass before they are acted on, if one player get a bug at one place but nobody else

DewiMorgan wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

That whole idea that all of the PTS was only there to find exploits for themselves is really quite insulting

But hidden behind a curtain, people will think the worst. So openness is best to stop these feelings from arising, whether it's open bug trackers, open PTS server, open bug testing forums...

More testers will make it harder for an group to keep an exploit hidden, it will also give an larger bug database making it easier to find bugs,