Proof Dropped gear > Crafted by HUGE difference

Dublicious

R0M2K wrote: »

I dont see the problem here:

Dropped gear should be always better than crafted gear because:

1- you have a chance to get it
2- gives incentives to raid/pvp

In fact dropped gear should be buffed even more.

Then crafting is irrelevant. If it's part of the game it shouldn't be irrelevant. I'm OK with it being just as hard to get crafted items as good as looted items, but it shouldn't be impossible. Surely evening out the damage/armor/echantment and making unique sets more balanced would help. There's got to be a way to make this work that doesn't involve respecing because my SP were wasted.

killedbyping

I think it would be great that if some Bosses in VR Dungeons or Trial would drop this Epic or Legendary Glyphs (like this with 1200 armor reduction or other rare glyphs which only appear on some looted weapons) so you can use them on Crafted Gear.

This would be realy nice synergy, so there would be a reason to craft AND to farm Dungeons at the same time.

NoMoreChillies

crafting is like tanks in ESO, they exist but not really needed.

Maverick827

People saying that crafting is useless in this game are wrong.

The skill that reduces the amount of upgrade materials is still useful to make it cheaper to upgrade your awesome dropped items. Just level up the crafting skill to max incedently by deconstructing equipment you get while leveling and put three points into that skill!

zaria

Dublicious wrote: »

R0M2K wrote: »

I dont see the problem here:

Dropped gear should be always better than crafted gear because:

1- you have a chance to get it
2- gives incentives to raid/pvp

In fact dropped gear should be buffed even more.

Then crafting is irrelevant. If it's part of the game it shouldn't be irrelevant. I'm OK with it being just as hard to get crafted items as good as looted items, but it shouldn't be impossible. Surely evening out the damage/armor/echantment and making unique sets more balanced would help. There's got to be a way to make this work that doesn't involve respecing because my SP were wasted.

Problem is that its pretty easy to craft the best craftable gear in the game, yes you need to know the traits but that just take time.
You can even mass produce it.

Its pretty fair that the very top end gear you get from raid bosses should be better same for pvp rearwards for being on leaderboard.
More problematic that sets dropped by normal bosses even mob you farm is better.
Currently I use an mix of dropped and crafted sets and doubt that will change.

RazzPitazz

killedbyping wrote: »

I think it would be great that if some Bosses in VR Dungeons or Trial would drop this Epic or Legendary Glyphs (like this with 1200 armor reduction or other rare glyphs which only appear on some looted weapons) so you can use them on Crafted Gear.

This would be realy nice synergy, so there would be a reason to craft AND to farm Dungeons at the same time.

Then there would be little point in crafting enchantments.... not that there is much reason now but ya'know.

Anastasia

Maverick827 wrote: »

People saying that crafting is useless in this game are wrong.

**Except anyone at all can upgrade their gear; anyone. So, at engame or when we (*we being Craftsmen and women who have learned, dedicated and spent time at our Crafts)... begin the awesomeness that is +Vet content and the AZ's etc. When we WOULD HAVE BEEN RELEVANT/NEEDED/HAD A WAY TO EARN OUR DAILY BREAD at +50 eh, thats not really what it is now - is it?

The skill that reduces the amount of upgrade materials is still useful to make it cheaper to upgrade your awesome dropped items. Just level up the crafting skill to max incedently by deconstructing equipment you get while leveling and put three points into that skill!

*Thanks Maverick827, this is a good tip for those just beginning to craft.

---

Mansome

Anastasia wrote: »

RylukShouja wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

UserT123 wrote: »

...

That would be fine with me if it weren't for the fact that players were told from the beginning (even before release) that "the best gear in the game will come from crafters"... unless that was a statement strictly in regards to all items must be upgraded to legendary by crafting, then this was a huge spit in the face to players. If this was intended to be Zenimax's way of telling players crafted gear will be better... then they should really adjust the stats/sets on all gear in the game, because as of right now crafted gear is inferior.

---

Yes. That is the literal, exact wording used in many pre-launch interviews and streams. Best gear in the game will come from crafters UPGRADING various loot and/or drops; upgraded to legendary by crafters. Whether one wants to twiddle about with is it realllllly crafted is the best, or is upgrading reallllly crafting makes no difference>

The end result is the most fabulous crafted and the most fabulous dropped gear can still be 'improved' by.......regular adventurers running through dungeons? ...by regular adventurers farming, stalking, fixating, obsessing on particular mobs? No.

NO. The better than, best available, most umpteenth maxed stats available on gear / weapons/ whatever is/will be available ONLY if a Master or Mistress Crafter UPGRADES it. Which means = Crafted => is zee BEST.

Master or Mistress Crafter = player who has put in the effort, time and dedication to becoming the best in a particular craft.

Do we know already ALL craftable upgrades which will become available for craftspersons in the AZ's or other upcoming content? Not yet. So, plans that include avenues for our Craftspeople to continue in the future to be able to UPGRADE loot/gear/items are still yet to be seen, yes? Doesn't mean those paths/traits/abilities aren't coming.

---

*Bandages horse and administers generous ampule of Moonsugar...

Except that that's not true. Literally anyone can upgrade any item to legendary. The difference is a few gold coins for some legendary mats.

RylukShouja wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

UserT123 wrote: »

...

That would be fine with me if it weren't for the fact that players were told from the beginning (even before release) that "the best gear in the game will come from crafters"... unless that was a statement strictly in regards to all items must be upgraded to legendary by crafting, then this was a huge spit in the face to players. If this was intended to be Zenimax's way of telling players crafted gear will be better... then they should really adjust the stats/sets on all gear in the game, because as of right now crafted gear is inferior.

---

Yes. That is the literal, exact wording used in many pre-launch interviews and streams. Best gear in the game will come from crafters UPGRADING various loot and/or drops; upgraded to legendary by crafters. Whether one wants to twiddle about with is it realllllly crafted is the best, or is upgrading reallllly crafting makes no difference>

The end result is the most fabulous crafted and the most fabulous dropped gear can still be 'improved' by.......regular adventurers running through dungeons? ...by regular adventurers farming, stalking, fixating, obsessing on particular mobs? No.

NO. The better than, best available, most umpteenth maxed stats available on gear / weapons/ whatever is/will be available ONLY if a Master or Mistress Crafter UPGRADES it. Which means = Crafted => is zee BEST.

Master or Mistress Crafter = player who has put in the effort, time and dedication to becoming the best in a particular craft.

Do we know already ALL craftable upgrades which will become available for craftspersons in the AZ's or other upcoming content? Not yet. So, plans that include avenues for our Craftspeople to continue in the future to be able to UPGRADE loot/gear/items are still yet to be seen, yes? Doesn't mean those paths/traits/abilities aren't coming.

---

*Bandages horse and administers generous ampule of Moonsugar...

Except that that's not true. Literally anyone can upgrade any item to legendary. The difference is a few gold coins for some legendary mats.

---

Well I stand f-ing corrected. Thanks RylukShouja for the clarification. I fumed and searched around online and asked in game and haven't found anything to counter your explanation. Still fuming, but guess I have it straight now. Anyone with the right amount of coin in their hand can BUY the number of needed ingredients and upgrade their own shiz. o-0

So crafting is 'for fun' during the leveling experience if you want to call it that, but most of the professions mean very little once one is spending the majority of their time in the end game environs. I guess I'll stick to my herb concoctions and will probs keep messing about with stat food; otherwise I will focus on my battle expertise from now on. Sad, but humble panda.

what the devs need to do is make it so you have to have your crafting level at least equal to the item your upgrading. Then earning your craft would mean something.

Maverick827

Itemization – we’ll add gear that’s harder to acquire but more worthwhile. We're looking at gear that will make others envious when you’re wearing or wielding it—both in appearance and in stat boosts. To do this, we’ll adjust soft caps so that they don't kick in quite as quickly. We have to be very careful about how much we adjust numbers, because the greater the variance, the more people can hurt their intended builds.

This could be good or bad. If it's just more awesome dropped gear in veteran content, then crafting will be even less valuable.

kasain

I think we should be able to research items we craft at specail tables.
If they made crafters guildes and quest like ffxiv, crafting would rock.

In that game many will tell you they truely enjoy crafting, craft quest and gatheri g. I hope it happens here.

pbtanashb16_ESO

Crafted gear is useless?
Did i miss something cause everybody i know at v6-12 uses a mix of dropped and crafted gear or only crafted gear..
I can't know if that's true for everyone at v12, but for the players i know one thing is true: Everyone wears atleast 1 crafted set in PVE endgame and PvP.
Oh and all the people shouting in /zone "LF XXX crafter with XXX trait and XXX style"....
Confusing.

Crafting seems to be really viable to me.
Maybe you should not look at ONE piece of gear and judge "Omfg crafting is soo useless, I've seen a screenshot of one item in the forum, so *** OP!!!"


And no it's not even hard to get your crafting lvl up (except enchantment) and you don't need to put in massive amounts of gold to do it so where is the problem?

Cogo

Crafting is fine. What they released about it sounds even better.

And on the subject of crafting. They FINALY said they will fix Jazbay grape! Lol!!!

herk427b14_ESO

The crafted set is better 20% armor reduction on critical hits stack! Even temp boosted armor ratings can be reduced to 0 in 5 sec.

ayriennub17_ESO

My thought is what good is a crafter to upgrade dungeon dropped gear when it BOP and can't be given to them to upgrade...

demonlkojipub19_ESO

I saw crafted items being ultimately weaker than dropped before due to difference in set bonus power, including most 8-trait sets, now this enchant thing further lowers my hopes of crafted items truely being better than dropped items.

Blackhorne

UserT123 wrote: »

I'm not even going to waste time explaining my reasons... the pictures should do it justice... I certainly hope for once a dev actually looks at (and responds) these posts.

crafted item with legendary max level armor reduction glyph:

dropped (pvp) item with same enchant. Also legendary:

This really makes crafted gear worthless. Not only is the glyph godly (Non-crafted) in comparison but it also opens up extra slots for other sets because it only requires 3 pieces.

Please anyone with legitimate arguments, for either side of this issue, post comments and screenshots of other comparisons. This is getting old.

No, what you show here is that one particular piece of dropped gear has one particular attribute higher than one particular partially-equivalent piece of crafted gear.

This doesn't take into account:
1. Set bonuses,
2. The odds of getting the dropped gear,
3. The desired attributes for your particular build.

Crafting still gives you the opportunity to make/upgrade first-class gear to an exact specification, whereas with dropped gear you get whatever the RNG says you get.

Anastasia

Blackhorne wrote: »

UserT123 wrote: »

I'm not even going to waste time explaining my reasons... the pictures should do it justice... I certainly hope for once a dev actually looks at (and responds) these posts.

crafted item with legendary max level armor reduction glyph:

dropped (pvp) item with same enchant. Also legendary:

This really makes crafted gear worthless. Not only is the glyph godly (Non-crafted) in comparison but it also opens up extra slots for other sets because it only requires 3 pieces.

Please anyone with legitimate arguments, for either side of this issue, post comments and screenshots of other comparisons. This is getting old.

---

No, what you show here is that one particular piece of dropped gear has one particular attribute higher than one particular partially-equivalent piece of crafted gear.

This doesn't take into account:
1. Set bonuses,
2. The odds of getting the dropped gear,
3. The desired attributes for your particular build.

Crafting still gives you the opportunity to make/upgrade first-class gear to an exact specification, whereas with dropped gear you get whatever the RNG says you get.

---

I appreciate some of the points you made here Blackhorne. And I've been cheered up by reading such explanations in the past. All I can say is "I wish."

Sadly, three different attribute/stats... and if a data set were available, I highly doubt we would see THIS particular piece he provided a pic of as being an isolated case.

The fact (*which I disbelieved for a bit) that ANYONE and their DOG can do the UPGRADE to Legendary simply by having enough COIN (*no matter HOW they got that coin o-0).
Ergo your time or dedication spent in Enchanting will NOT make YOU, Mr. or Ms. Crafter a sought-after commodity in endgame. What the frick would anyone need Ms. Enchanter for when they can buy the ingredients and UPGRADE their own gear to Legendary. *Shakes head and enjoys some good Rye while musing over what was supposed to have been.

Khivas_Carrick

UserT123 wrote: »

I'm not even going to waste time explaining my reasons... the pictures should do it justice... I certainly hope for once a dev actually looks at (and responds) these posts.

crafted item with legendary max level armor reduction glyph:

dropped (pvp) item with same enchant. Also legendary:

This really makes crafted gear worthless. Not only is the glyph godly (Non-crafted) in comparison but it also opens up extra slots for other sets because it only requires 3 pieces.

Please anyone with legitimate arguments, for either side of this issue, post comments and screenshots of other comparisons. This is getting old.

I would argue to take the top one and change it from Infused to Sharpened and most likely take the top anyway. It doesn't do as much in a raw, flat amount, but it does scale better and will probably last longer in the grand scheme of things, and hell, for all we know on some bosses a flat 20% might be more than a flat 1240 armor removed from a boss during damage checks. Plus the top adds more crit if you used precise on it and if that was what you were after, etc.

Really the difference between the two is rather minimal, and I'd rather craft my own weapons and armor just for the "I look good in this" effect.

God damn it I miss SWTOR's adaptive armor system more than ever now.

alexj4596b14_ESO

UserT123 wrote: »

I'm not even going to waste time explaining my reasons... the pictures should do it justice... I certainly hope for once a dev actually looks at (and responds) these posts.

crafted item with legendary max level armor reduction glyph:

dropped (pvp) item with same enchant. Also legendary:

This really makes crafted gear worthless. Not only is the glyph godly (Non-crafted) in comparison but it also opens up extra slots for other sets because it only requires 3 pieces.

Please anyone with legitimate arguments, for either side of this issue, post comments and screenshots of other comparisons. This is getting old.

After reading about this and looking some stuff up I came up with a fix for this and for "rewarding I game take a look at this!

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/107481/refined-idea-deves-read-crafting-nerf-for-end-game-fight-it-crafters-band-together/p1

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Censorious wrote: »

Are you telling me that the time and effort I've spent raising Enchanting and Clothing to max level has been completely wasted?

I'm PvP player - I don't do dungeons at all and there's no dropped loot in PvP. So apparently I'm going to be unable to compete.

That's another nail in the coffin for me.

there is no dropped loot in pvp? \ they send you weapons and armor in the mail every 10 min if your fighting. thats the loot in a system where they cant literally drop. i have got purple set piece in pvp "reward for war effert" mail. if your not getting mail loot you arnt accomplishing anything in pvp and need to change your tactics.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

sure anyone can upgrade. but just the "extra meterials" on top of what it takes for 8 pieces is worth around 25-30k. thats not counting the 64 legendary and 32 purple it takes to level 8 pieces. in other words us crafters can save a lot of money getting the best sets. weather they are crafted or improved.. also im sure new sets will be better now that the imbalance is obvious
but the system is good in my mind. there are good sets in other places than crafting so grinders and dungeon goers also have a piece of the economy; they are rewarded for grinding if they can find buyers.
at least crafters have a guaranteed reward via the reduction in material cost for top tier gear and a chance per day for free items worth thousands of dollars; that is not even taking into account our steak in the economy.
it would be no good if top tier was ONLY crafted sets in my opinion

Haewk

Anastasia wrote: »

Blackhorne wrote: »

UserT123 wrote: »

I'm not even going to waste time explaining my reasons... the pictures should do it justice... I certainly hope for once a dev actually looks at (and responds) these posts.

crafted item with legendary max level armor reduction glyph:

dropped (pvp) item with same enchant. Also legendary:

This really makes crafted gear worthless. Not only is the glyph godly (Non-crafted) in comparison but it also opens up extra slots for other sets because it only requires 3 pieces.

Please anyone with legitimate arguments, for either side of this issue, post comments and screenshots of other comparisons. This is getting old.

---

No, what you show here is that one particular piece of dropped gear has one particular attribute higher than one particular partially-equivalent piece of crafted gear.

This doesn't take into account:
1. Set bonuses,
2. The odds of getting the dropped gear,
3. The desired attributes for your particular build.

Crafting still gives you the opportunity to make/upgrade first-class gear to an exact specification, whereas with dropped gear you get whatever the RNG says you get.

---

I appreciate some of the points you made here Blackhorne. And I've been cheered up by reading such explanations in the past. All I can say is "I wish."

Sadly, three different attribute/stats... and if a data set were available, I highly doubt we would see THIS particular piece he provided a pic of as being an isolated case.

The fact (*which I disbelieved for a bit) that ANYONE and their DOG can do the UPGRADE to Legendary simply by having enough COIN (*no matter HOW they got that coin o-0).
Ergo your time or dedication spent in Enchanting will NOT make YOU, Mr. or Ms. Crafter a sought-after commodity in endgame. What the frick would anyone need Ms. Enchanter for when they can buy the ingredients and UPGRADE their own gear to Legendary. *Shakes head and enjoys some good Rye while musing over what was supposed to have been.

Everyone in the game is not a gold buyer. And usually it is not as if the top level crafters in MMOs supply the materials anyway. Usually the client supplies the materials and the crafter does only the crafting.

So your gold buying angle really falls flat on its face as in your world they will still be buying the materials but now they will have to pay you as well for your "skill".

Luckily, as I am experiencing it, crafting is not some ridiculous time/luck cliff that only the very dedicated can ascend and hold the rest of the player base hostage to. Yes, you need to spend some skill points to craft new gear, yes, you need to spend some skill points to be more efficient at improving gear. In context the skill point cost and time investment is pretty low and reasonably attainable by everyone, even casuals (even more so for casuals I wager).

Your "time and dedication" argument seems pretty vapid to me as I don't need you anyway as becoming a master crafter is fairly simple. As a semi-casual player that likes to be self reliant this suits me fine right down to the ground.

So your "time and dedication" and being a "sought-after commodity" is a complete fallacy and I think you should stick to the "is drops better than crafted"
argument where you actually have a leg to stand on.

PS: Provisioning is the exception as the purple recipes are *VERY* rare.

Curragraigue

Anastasia wrote: »

I appreciate some of the points you made here Blackhorne. And I've been cheered up by reading such explanations in the past. All I can say is "I wish."

Sadly, three different attribute/stats... and if a data set were available, I highly doubt we would see THIS particular piece he provided a pic of as being an isolated case.

The fact (*which I disbelieved for a bit) that ANYONE and their DOG can do the UPGRADE to Legendary simply by having enough COIN (*no matter HOW they got that coin o-0).
Ergo your time or dedication spent in Enchanting will NOT make YOU, Mr. or Ms. Crafter a sought-after commodity in endgame. What the frick would anyone need Ms. Enchanter for when they can buy the ingredients and UPGRADE their own gear to Legendary. *Shakes head and enjoys some good Rye while musing over what was supposed to have been.

The upgrade to legendary for equipment can be done by anyone doing blacksmithing, woodwork or clothier as you say. But enchanting high level legendary glyphs can only be done by someone that has put the work in to level up enchanting and used skills to unlock the higher potency and aspect runes.

Svann

Crafting isnt useless. Its easier to skillup than any game I can think of, and I see people selling crafted gear all.the.time.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

to hell with best set or stat if its not daedric or khajiit im not wearing it! im crafting so i always wear the motif i want to wear and nothing else! Crafting must remain superior!

HeroOfEvbof

As of right now, everyone is aware that any item, regardless of color, that has Covenant in its name is going to better than any same color crafted or dungeon dropped.
Since these are PvP only, it is the reward for playing the aspect of the game that the company is most proud of. They respond to PvP bugs faster is also more evidence.
I believe their thinking was that to get to the Covenant gear in PvP, you will need to start with crafted/dropped gear. However, the big guild stores are full of Covenant gear varying widely in price.
You do not need Covenant gear to do PvE. Bad builds can succeed at PvE. Horrible players with bad builds can succeed at PvE, I know because I am a horrible player always fiddling with bad builds just to see what they might teach me.
PvP is a different animal. And Covenant gear is part of the whole PvP mindset.

ShedsHisTail

Censorious wrote: »

Are you telling me that the time and effort I've spent raising Enchanting and Clothing to max level has been completely wasted?

I'm PvP player - I don't do dungeons at all and there's no dropped loot in PvP. So apparently I'm going to be unable to compete.

That's another nail in the coffin for me.

I'm confused...
If there's no dropped loot in PvP, why is that second imagine listed as "dropped (pvp)"?

Halrloprillalar

TBH this looks like an 'upgrade amount tier' bug rather than a better glyph that cannot be made. Alternatively the enchanting is bugged and we are not making proper glyph 'numbers' for their tier.

In other words, the upgrade somehow got bumped to a tier the number for which is not calculated properly during the upgrade. INB4 priority nerf...

Would be nice to get a ZOS post on this.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Anyone can upgrade an item, but not anyone can craft the item. Also, if you haven't put 3 skill points into upgrading (which requires level 40 crafting), you are going to spend well North of 30K to get an item to Gold.

Also, I strongly disagree with the position of this thread. Are there some awesome dropped item sets? Of Course. But you need to find or buy the whole set, and it needs to be exactly what you want. Once you spend your time researching there are lots different set pieces that can be mixed and matched to your play style and level, which cannot be said for dropped items. Plus, you can make them in any Motif so they match. Aesthetics might not be important for everyone, but they are for most people; otherwise, Motifs wouldn't be the most expensive thing being sold. For example: I currently have 4 different active effects on my character in matching purple quality Daedric Armor (3 distinct 3-piece sets I crafted, and a 3 piece jewelry set that I found).

Finally, I want to see this test done with an 8-trait item. Nightmother is only 6-trait I don't know if it would be different or not, but 6-trait items take 2 weeks 2 research. 8-traits take 2 months...