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Ugh... So frustrated I have to leave PvP

  • lao
    lao
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    yodased wrote: »
    Sigh this continues to pop up:

    Its viable to go into Cyrodil at level 10. There are plenty of things for you to do. To think you can fight with keep guards and people 100 levels above you is silly.

    Low levels in Cyrodil are support/stealth/siege characters, not PvP characters.

    You have utility as a low level char, may not be what you want it to be, but its there.

    to be fair who wants to be a siege/support character :p
  • ErykGrimm
    ErykGrimm
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    lao wrote: »
    ErykGrimm wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    ErykGrimm wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    Arreyanne wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    slayer7800 wrote: »
    Some people have suggested having different campaigns for pre veteran ranks. I'm not sure if they have the population to support that though seeing there is really only 1 active NA campaign currently.

    that has been tried in swtor. result: -800k subs after that patch. i seriously dont get the problem. it takes 1-2 days /played to hit vr1 in eso. ppl should use the time they spend on making these threads about how unfair it is on lvling their toons and they would be vr1. infact the game is out almost 2 months now, if ppl still dont have atleast 1 vr1 char by now they got no right to complain anyways. no problem if ppl play casually but if they cant find 48 hours of free time in 2 months they cant expect to be competitive in pvp. thats less than an hour per day fyi.

    Just based off this post , you don't want people that give you a challenge you want free kills. easy kills, one shot kills etc etc.

    I would go a bit further based off this response that you love to go to the lvl 10 zone on you're geared out PvP toon slaughter lvl 10 and them tell them "it's a PvP server what are you complaining about."

    And people wonder why games with multiple servers merge the PvP server together first, Things that make you go HUh

    I's also very much like to see this magical 800,000 sub decrease based soley on the information with which you provided in the post.

    Do you work for BioWare Austin?

    http://i.imgur.com/Dt8zJ.png

    note: the graph is not quite up to date but u can see the tendency and i couldnt find anything more recent. didnt rly try hard tho if u care enough google it urself.

    your welcome

    and no id prefer fighting more vr players as they give more interesting fights. ur just supermad right now. if u would possess the ability to read properly u would realize that i said ppl should level up instead of whining about absolutely everything all the frikkin time. its pisseasy to get a vr level character in this game but if ppl insist on whining all day instead of lvling and still dont have a single vr character at this point after 2 months almost they deserve to get killed..

    doesnt rly matter what i say anyways as ur just a cranky little boy who wants everything handed to him on a silver plate.

    "mimimi i wanna be teh rockstar in pvp but i dont wanna put any effort in. y u no let me pewpew at l10 stoopid game?! mimimi"

    disgusting....

    Not sure if your aware of this, mongrel, not everyone lives in their mothers basement and have the time to play 80 hours a week. If your IQ was higher than 80 you might have been able to reason that out. But you keep trying buddy.

    lol so mad. as ur obviously too mad to do the math urself ill help you out.

    most efficient way to vr1 takes 2 ppl and 17 hours. lets assume ur solo and bad at the game (realistic conditions) lets say you need 48 hours to 50. lets also assume u didnt get the headstart and started at 4.4. u would have played the game for 49 days then. 48 / 49 = 0.9795 hours per day = 58.77 minutes per day

    58.77 minutes per day -> 6.8565 hours per week. lets round up to 7 hours a week

    7 hours a week would have gotten you vr1 by now. not quite 80 hours a week but keep trying (whining) buddy.

    stay ez son and take some chill pills before u pop a blood vessel.

    I have been aware of that leveling strategy since November of last year. Lets keep this discussion on track for people that will play the game as it was intended to be played. You have no idea how a playerbase works do you?In fact it is obvious, leave these kinds of discussions to your betters. You can keep trying if you insist, but your lack of perspective guarantees that you have nothing worthwhile to add to this discussion or any other discussion in this forum.

    hahahahahah. casual scrub trying to talk down to me. hilarious. i know very very well how a playerbase works but im not gonna take ppl into consideration that intentionally go the slow road and then complain cos others werent that stupid.

    you know, i have a rl m8 who is the definition of casual cos he simply doesnt have much time to play. he just started the game. he did some quests and was going slow. i told him to grind cos its faster and linked him a guide. now he grinds and gets big chunks of xp in the little time he plays. he is not a brainless moron so he will go the most efficient way rather than beeing a stubborn whiner.

    looking at these forums i should be almost the only one who even has the right to post as most of u just try to dumb the game down to a level so even u could compete. ZOS needs to stop listening to all u scrubs and instead listen to the ppl like me who actually have something to say that will turn this into a better game.


    seriously u casuals have ruined enough games with ur clueless opinions on how things should be. step back and let the pros who actually know what they are talking about handle this. maybe u can learn a thing or two.

    Lol. Insulting a majority of the playerbase and calling them stupid for actually playing the content instead of your leet going method is the most pathetic thing I have ever read. Keep telling yourself your the best just repeat it over and over. Its a computer game mongrel. Let that sink in. If you need definitions for some of those hard words I can link them for you. Here's a hint though, you are so deluded that the only reason I keep replying to you, is so everyone that reads this forum can have a nice laugh as you tell us over and over how you are God's gift to gaming. Get over yourself and go outside once in a while. Shave your neckbeard while your at it.
    Edited by ErykGrimm on May 23, 2014 7:53PM
  • maxilaub17_ESO
    maxilaub17_ESO
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    Adramelach wrote: »
    Early on (I've been around since beta) PvP was a lot of fun, with a lot of mixed levels and I was in my level 20s to 30s and I could function pretty well. I got taken out quickly by the (rare) V levels that were around, but for the most part, I could join a battle, last a while, help siege, and while wary of NPC guards and such...

    The population of V-levels and their V-level gear has skyrocketed, and I found my life expectancy in battles to be on the order of seconds now, not minutes.

    ...the NPC guards are gank squads, and they yanked me off my horse and killed me in, again, seconds.

    So... it appears the evolution of PvP has matured into a V-only environment where only the elite survive, using top-class gear, and etc.

    I guess I'll try PvP again if and when I get to V10 or thereabouts, someday, but I'm just so disappointed by that. I was enjoying PvP, too.

    I'm V10 and have to agree with you, they should have separate PvP zones for V1+ and for levels 10-49.

  • Glurin
    Glurin
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    lao wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    Sigh this continues to pop up:

    Its viable to go into Cyrodil at level 10. There are plenty of things for you to do. To think you can fight with keep guards and people 100 levels above you is silly.

    Low levels in Cyrodil are support/stealth/siege characters, not PvP characters.

    You have utility as a low level char, may not be what you want it to be, but its there.

    to be fair who wants to be a siege/support character :p

    Well somebody's got to clean the latrines and take out the garbage. If you're the low man on the totem pole, it ain't gonna be someone who is not you. :wink:
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • SBR_QuorTek
    SBR_QuorTek
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    Go do some PvE, it is easy to do and would quickly get some levels on our back advance into the vr ranks... alot of the VR people did spend alot time gather meterials, updating their gear and more... maybe it would be something for you to do as well... this is how TESO differs, you can make everything and get everything made by putting in an effort.

    Game is very forgiving for reaching the next tiers of stuff as it is, that is what everyone can exploit without actually 'exploiting'
  • Cody
    Cody
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    lao wrote: »
    slayer7800 wrote: »
    Some people have suggested having different campaigns for pre veteran ranks. I'm not sure if they have the population to support that though seeing there is really only 1 active NA campaign currently.

    that has been tried in swtor. result: -800k subs after that patch. i seriously dont get the problem. it takes 1-2 days /played to hit vr1 in eso. ppl should use the time they spend on making these threads about how unfair it is on lvling their toons and they would be vr1. infact the game is out almost 2 months now, if ppl still dont have atleast 1 vr1 char by now they got no right to complain anyways. no problem if ppl play casually but if they cant find 48 hours of free time in 2 months they cant expect to be competitive in pvp. thats less than an hour per day fyi.

    If you reached VR1 in 2 days, then you had ALOT of free time, and power grinded. im sorry to tell you this, but not everyone has that kind of time. it took me a month to reach VR1, and I even had nights with absolutely nothing to do, and I played ESO all day those days. Im sure you used exploits and lame tactics, as you cant do it in 2 days if you quest. There is nothing wrong with casual players. Nor is there nothing wrong with low-level players wanting to be able to PLAY PvP. businesses lie because brain-dead idiots like you let them without calling them on it. I should not have to wait till my VR ranks to play a game mode that is supposed to be for everyone. You need to understand this, and stop being such a close-minded, jerk.
    People like you are the reasons why companies care so little about their customers. People like you SHOULD NOT have the right to voice their opinions, because you only make things worse. Shut the heck up with your elitist nonsense. And realize that not everyone can get to V10 in 3 days like half of you people did.
    Edited by Cody on May 24, 2014 12:18AM
  • lao
    lao
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    NookyZooky wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    slayer7800 wrote: »
    Some people have suggested having different campaigns for pre veteran ranks. I'm not sure if they have the population to support that though seeing there is really only 1 active NA campaign currently.

    that has been tried in swtor. result: -800k subs after that patch. i seriously dont get the problem. it takes 1-2 days /played to hit vr1 in eso. ppl should use the time they spend on making these threads about how unfair it is on lvling their toons and they would be vr1. infact the game is out almost 2 months now, if ppl still dont have atleast 1 vr1 char by now they got no right to complain anyways. no problem if ppl play casually but if they cant find 48 hours of free time in 2 months they cant expect to be competitive in pvp. thats less than an hour per day fyi.

    If you reached VR1 in 2 days, then you had ALOT of free time, and power grinded. im sorry to tell you this, but not everyone has that kind of time. it took me a month to reach VR1, and I even had nights with absolutely nothing to do, and I played ESO all day those days. Im sure you used exploits and lame tactics, as you cant do it in 2 days if you quest. There is nothing wrong with casual players. Nor is there nothing wrong with low-level players wanting to be able to PLAY PvP. businesses lie because brain-dead idiots like you let them without calling them on it. I should not have to wait till my VR ranks to play a game mode that is supposed to be for everyone. You need to understand this, and stop being such a close-minded, jerk.
    People like you are the reasons why companies care so little about their customers. People like you SHOULD NOT have the right to voice their opinions, because you only make things worse. Shut the heck up with your elitist nonsense. And realize that not everyone can get to V10 in 3 days like half of you people did.

    so not doing some idiotic bugged quests is using exploits and lame tactics now. ur opinion has been noted and disregarded. get lost.
  • wafcatb14_ESO
    wafcatb14_ESO
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    nah they screwed up . they based the AVA off of DAOC RVR the company that Matt Fior used to work for and helped create as one of the best RVR systems , sadly they screwed up here ,

    you could lvl up in RVR entirely in DAOC as well as Warhammer both rvr was simlar to what ESO has as they are all besed off DAOC RVR however you can no level effectivly in AVA . and now with the buffing all mobs to V rank 5 in AVA .

    Basicaly they are saying you need to grind our crappy PVE hand holding quest treadmill to veteran rank before you should even be in AVA .

    I didn`t buy ESO for the stupid personal story, or the Quest grinding pve i bought it for the DAOC based RVR . that`s it .

    If they expect us to grind their crappy pve just to do RVR may as well quit now . as the only reason to do pve is to get better gear to kill people in RVR .
  • lao
    lao
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    nah they screwed up . they based the AVA off of DAOC RVR the company that Matt Fior used to work for and helped create as one of the best RVR systems , sadly they screwed up here ,

    you could lvl up in RVR entirely in DAOC as well as Warhammer both rvr was simlar to what ESO has as they are all besed off DAOC RVR however you can no level effectivly in AVA . and now with the buffing all mobs to V rank 5 in AVA .

    Basicaly they are saying you need to grind our crappy PVE hand holding quest treadmill to veteran rank before you should even be in AVA .

    I didn`t buy ESO for the stupid personal story, or the Quest grinding pve i bought it for the DAOC based RVR . that`s it .

    If they expect us to grind their crappy pve just to do RVR may as well quit now . as the only reason to do pve is to get better gear to kill people in RVR .

    what do u mean u could level in rvr in daoc? u could level in rvr zones which gave an xp bonus but it was still pve. u could also level in bg´s but that wasnt much faster than in eso. however it was alot more fun atleast.
  • Cody
    Cody
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    lao wrote: »
    NookyZooky wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    slayer7800 wrote: »
    Some people have suggested having different campaigns for pre veteran ranks. I'm not sure if they have the population to support that though seeing there is really only 1 active NA campaign currently.

    that has been tried in swtor. result: -800k subs after that patch. i seriously dont get the problem. it takes 1-2 days /played to hit vr1 in eso. ppl should use the time they spend on making these threads about how unfair it is on lvling their toons and they would be vr1. infact the game is out almost 2 months now, if ppl still dont have atleast 1 vr1 char by now they got no right to complain anyways. no problem if ppl play casually but if they cant find 48 hours of free time in 2 months they cant expect to be competitive in pvp. thats less than an hour per day fyi.

    If you reached VR1 in 2 days, then you had ALOT of free time, and power grinded. im sorry to tell you this, but not everyone has that kind of time. it took me a month to reach VR1, and I even had nights with absolutely nothing to do, and I played ESO all day those days. Im sure you used exploits and lame tactics, as you cant do it in 2 days if you quest. There is nothing wrong with casual players. Nor is there nothing wrong with low-level players wanting to be able to PLAY PvP. businesses lie because brain-dead idiots like you let them without calling them on it. I should not have to wait till my VR ranks to play a game mode that is supposed to be for everyone. You need to understand this, and stop being such a close-minded, jerk.
    People like you are the reasons why companies care so little about their customers. People like you SHOULD NOT have the right to voice their opinions, because you only make things worse. Shut the heck up with your elitist nonsense. And realize that not everyone can get to V10 in 3 days like half of you people did.

    so not doing some idiotic bugged quests is using exploits and lame tactics now. ur opinion has been noted and disregarded. get lost.
    you completely ignored 95% of that post. If you reached VR1 in 2 days, you must have done some kind of exploit, or you have ALLOT of free time, not everyone has that kind of time.

  • lao
    lao
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    NookyZooky wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    NookyZooky wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    slayer7800 wrote: »
    Some people have suggested having different campaigns for pre veteran ranks. I'm not sure if they have the population to support that though seeing there is really only 1 active NA campaign currently.

    that has been tried in swtor. result: -800k subs after that patch. i seriously dont get the problem. it takes 1-2 days /played to hit vr1 in eso. ppl should use the time they spend on making these threads about how unfair it is on lvling their toons and they would be vr1. infact the game is out almost 2 months now, if ppl still dont have atleast 1 vr1 char by now they got no right to complain anyways. no problem if ppl play casually but if they cant find 48 hours of free time in 2 months they cant expect to be competitive in pvp. thats less than an hour per day fyi.

    If you reached VR1 in 2 days, then you had ALOT of free time, and power grinded. im sorry to tell you this, but not everyone has that kind of time. it took me a month to reach VR1, and I even had nights with absolutely nothing to do, and I played ESO all day those days. Im sure you used exploits and lame tactics, as you cant do it in 2 days if you quest. There is nothing wrong with casual players. Nor is there nothing wrong with low-level players wanting to be able to PLAY PvP. businesses lie because brain-dead idiots like you let them without calling them on it. I should not have to wait till my VR ranks to play a game mode that is supposed to be for everyone. You need to understand this, and stop being such a close-minded, jerk.
    People like you are the reasons why companies care so little about their customers. People like you SHOULD NOT have the right to voice their opinions, because you only make things worse. Shut the heck up with your elitist nonsense. And realize that not everyone can get to V10 in 3 days like half of you people did.

    so not doing some idiotic bugged quests is using exploits and lame tactics now. ur opinion has been noted and disregarded. get lost.
    you completely ignored 95% of that post. If you reached VR1 in 2 days, you must have done some kind of exploit, or you have ALLOT of free time, not everyone has that kind of time.

    if u run a duo u can grind to 50 in 17 hours. no exploit or lame tactic needed. just pure grind at the correct spots. the spots are no secret either u can find video guides all over youtube.
  • ErykGrimm
    ErykGrimm
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    lao wrote: »
    NookyZooky wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    NookyZooky wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    slayer7800 wrote: »
    Some people have suggested having different campaigns for pre veteran ranks. I'm not sure if they have the population to support that though seeing there is really only 1 active NA campaign currently.

    that has been tried in swtor. result: -800k subs after that patch. i seriously dont get the problem. it takes 1-2 days /played to hit vr1 in eso. ppl should use the time they spend on making these threads about how unfair it is on lvling their toons and they would be vr1. infact the game is out almost 2 months now, if ppl still dont have atleast 1 vr1 char by now they got no right to complain anyways. no problem if ppl play casually but if they cant find 48 hours of free time in 2 months they cant expect to be competitive in pvp. thats less than an hour per day fyi.

    If you reached VR1 in 2 days, then you had ALOT of free time, and power grinded. im sorry to tell you this, but not everyone has that kind of time. it took me a month to reach VR1, and I even had nights with absolutely nothing to do, and I played ESO all day those days. Im sure you used exploits and lame tactics, as you cant do it in 2 days if you quest. There is nothing wrong with casual players. Nor is there nothing wrong with low-level players wanting to be able to PLAY PvP. businesses lie because brain-dead idiots like you let them without calling them on it. I should not have to wait till my VR ranks to play a game mode that is supposed to be for everyone. You need to understand this, and stop being such a close-minded, jerk.
    People like you are the reasons why companies care so little about their customers. People like you SHOULD NOT have the right to voice their opinions, because you only make things worse. Shut the heck up with your elitist nonsense. And realize that not everyone can get to V10 in 3 days like half of you people did.

    so not doing some idiotic bugged quests is using exploits and lame tactics now. ur opinion has been noted and disregarded. get lost.
    you completely ignored 95% of that post. If you reached VR1 in 2 days, you must have done some kind of exploit, or you have ALLOT of free time, not everyone has that kind of time.

    if u run a duo u can grind to 50 in 17 hours. no exploit or lame tactic needed. just pure grind at the correct spots. the spots are no secret either u can find video guides all over youtube.

    If you just wanna grind to max level, I hear runescape is just great for that.

    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]
    Edited by ZOS_LeroyW on May 25, 2014 1:22PM
  • Tintinabula
    Tintinabula
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    A lot can be learned by sieging. I siege when im just tired..ya know?..I watch how groups move with a healer in comparison to how they advance and retreat without one.

    I try to guess where stealthers like to hide. Its interesting to see how stragglers always die..or those who try to spear head a charging maneuver die..or live if their healer shows up in time.

    The neat thing is to remember what you've seen atop a wall and remember it when you're on the ground in the mix.

    Same goes for sieging on the ground...you learn where theres a good spot to place your ballista..and a bad spot..you learn where flanks and ambushes occur and where to wait and hide.

    Tonight while sieging i caught countless enemies on one specific rock..it looked good from their vantage for sniping but getting up and down it was tedious and they had to jump several times to navigate it...while i bombarded them with fire.
  • lao
    lao
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    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]
    Edited by ZOS_LeroyW on May 25, 2014 1:24PM
  • lao
    lao
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    nvm
    Edited by lao on May 25, 2014 12:39PM
  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
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    Adramelach wrote: »
    Early on (I've been around since beta) PvP was a lot of fun, with a lot of mixed levels and I was in my level 20s to 30s and I could function pretty well. I got taken out quickly by the (rare) V levels that were around, but for the most part, I could join a battle, last a while, help siege, and while wary of NPC guards and such, if I got caught, I could get out of it, and continue on.

    Wow, have things changed... I focused on PvE for a while, and tried going back to PvP today at level 40. It was shocking...

    The population of V-levels and their V-level gear has skyrocketed, and I found my life expectancy in battles to be on the order of seconds now, not minutes. That, after riding many minutes to get to the battle in the first place. Not fun being taken down in two or three hits, looking around while dead, and every single player that comes up is V1 or above, with 10s all over the place.

    On top of that, I wandered too close to an enemy-held resource on one of my epic rides, and while before I could usually perform a fighting retreat and get out, now apparently, after the "update", the NPC guards are gank squads, and they yanked me off my horse and killed me in, again, seconds.

    So... it appears the evolution of PvP has matured into a V-only environment where only the elite survive, using top-class gear, and etc.

    And that's all fine for them... but man, I just can't see that being anything good at all for new players. How a Level 10 going to Cyrodiil for the first time could possibly find it entertaining at all is beyond me, really.

    As it is, the only role I can do now with any hope of survival on the order of minutes, versus seconds, is keep defense. And while that's fun, and I can drive a siege engine pretty well, it would have been nice not to risk instant death the moment I leave the keep walls, at least until I'm a V with the right gear, and such.

    I guess I'll try PvP again if and when I get to V10 or thereabouts, someday, but I'm just so disappointed by that. I was enjoying PvP, too.


    very well put together noted paragraph you have made. well done, and thank you for setting me up for the following 2 statements.

    #1)
    your entire presentation is exactly the reason for the need to have and be respectfull of and to join player made guild's.
    once you have joined a guild you obey orders of the clan and you will recieve good protection, advice, and fellow clan mates with a complete set of new armor weapons and good friendships that are intended to help you for years to come!
    but, with the attitude today as you have so nicely put

    quote-
    "I just can't see that being anything good at all for new players. How a Level 10 going to Cyrodiil for the first time could possibly find it entertaining at all is beyond me, really."
    end quote -


    your all about me, me, me! not once is it about the clan or the respect of having a guild or friends, no, instead it's all about self and what can you get for self!

    #2)
    is not what you just said in your speech exactly what an open world pvp server is? interesting to note that there is now no difference of cryodiil to what would happen if elderscrolls online were an open world pvp server with no boundries strictly limiting pvp to only cryodiil. but, instead we find that having an open world pvp server and the so called "newbe gank squads" does exesit exactly the same way in cryodiil as it does in an open world entire map pvp server.

    whats the difference? there is none!
    be assured, that i did read your response to my feedback comment(s), i always do. and unless i respond back to your comment directly, then i will always stand by my original feedback statement.
    and by the way:
    best in slot: is the armor, weapon, clothing look, pet, or no pet, jewelry, race, class, skill choices, amount of DPS, and skin color best fit to you and the way you wish to play and makes you feel good and performs what YOU think it should be.
    worst in slot: what you read in zone chat, and forum comment, and forum thread, and you tube video, and live streamer advice, and class rep advice, and guild chat advice, and whisper told you to wear, and use for skill, and dress like, and use for weapon and armor.
  • reggielee
    reggielee
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    with time enough players will legitimately reach vet 10 and you will see a preponderance of those levels in every long pvp type game. that eso reached that stage the 2nd week of opening is another matter. however, the meat of pvp is attracting and KEEPING new players to feed the constant drain of players leaving pvp for whatever reason.

    eso needs to address some way of attracting and keeping new players to pvp, i see they buffed them more but why dont they segregate vets into an elite campaign and allow lower lvls to compete amongst themselves
    Mama always said the fastest way to a man's heart is through his chest.
  • Adramelach
    Adramelach
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    your all about me, me, me! not once is it about the clan or the respect of having a guild or friends, no, instead it's all about self and what can you get for self!

    Exactly right. I don't run a charity, nor do I pay for the game so others can be entertained. When I go to a movie, it's all about ME being entertained by the content. Yes, I might go with family or friends, and in that case, absolutely I wish to see them entertained as well. However, to be honest I don't really care if others are entertained in ESO, I don't know them, and I don't spend my money so they can have fun. I spend my money in ESO on me, me, and me.

    And frankly, so you do. I would be very surprised if you could point me to any ESO players, including yourself, that willingly spend the money on the game, have no fun at all themselves, sit there frustrated, bored, or aggravated by it, and yet think "well, this fantastic, as long as my guild buddies are having a good time, I'm all about suffering this nightmare for them!" Yeah, right.

    Sure, you want your guild and friends to enjoy it, and be supportive of them. But ONLY if you are also being entertained and are enjoying it yourself. So, in the end, every sub-paying player here is paying for their own enjoyment, which might include seeing their guilds and friends succeed, but is not exclusive of themselves having a good time.
    is not what you just said in your speech exactly what an open world pvp server is? interesting to note that there is now no difference of cryodiil to what would happen if elderscrolls online were an open world pvp server with no boundries strictly limiting pvp to only cryodiil. but, instead we find that having an open world pvp server and the so called "newbe gank squads" does exesit exactly the same way in cryodiil as it does in an open world entire map pvp server.
    whats the difference? there is none!

    I actually have no idea what your point here, is, actually, except changing the map wouldn't change the dynamic? Not getting it.
  • SBR_QuorTek
    SBR_QuorTek
    ✭✭✭
    Personally I think alot of people cry for the wrong reasons... for me it is like.. why should I be punished for putting in an effort getting to where I am now because some people refuse to play the game and want everything handed to them... if this game is to much for you stop playing and retreat to wow swtor or whichever game you came from...

    And if you say you are an elderscroll fan right now and here and been having complaining just to hard... then I have to say.. you are not or maybe you actually just beefed up everything in the other TES games on the sidewalk so you would be immortal...

    If one like casual pvp starting from lvl10... then sure go ahead you can still do alot of stuff in game as it is.... but if you start pestering people in the veteran ranks because one get his ass handed to him/her... then think about it like this... start game pvp'ers vs endgame pvp'ers and do the math... sure you died to someone superier.... but you live to fight another day.... just don't get yourself farmed by taking the wrong decissions.
  • lao
    lao
    ✭✭✭✭
    reggielee wrote: »
    with time enough players will legitimately reach vet 10 and you will see a preponderance of those levels in every long pvp type game. that eso reached that stage the 2nd week of opening is another matter. however, the meat of pvp is attracting and KEEPING new players to feed the constant drain of players leaving pvp for whatever reason.

    eso needs to address some way of attracting and keeping new players to pvp, i see they buffed them more but why dont they segregate vets into an elite campaign and allow lower lvls to compete amongst themselves

    simply because theres not enough vet ranked players to even have a single campaign populated. maybe in a year it would be an option but by that time the game will be dead and f2p due to completely different issues anyways. buffing lowbies more is fine. splitting them from vets is the single most stupid thing they could do.

    and dont think it would balance out over time if they would split now. it would not. the vet ranked bracket would be dead and literally no1 would bother lvling into that as its less effort to roll a char into 40´s and pvp in the lowbie bracket until they ding 50 and then just reroll the toon instead of grinding quests till vr12. especially as that grind will get bigger and bigger with all these stupid roleplay err i mean adventure zones raising the cap all the time.

    right now its fine as lvling to 50 isnt a big deal compared to the horrendous quest grind that is needed at vr levels. just buff the pre 50s a little more. they should never stand a chance in a 1v1 vs a vr level character tho. 2-3 45+ should be able to take down a vr ranked player tho and infact they can already do that if they arent mindless zombies. level 10-40 chars could use a little buff however.
  • SBR_QuorTek
    SBR_QuorTek
    ✭✭✭
    lao wrote: »
    slayer7800 wrote: »
    Some people have suggested having different campaigns for pre veteran ranks. I'm not sure if they have the population to support that though seeing there is really only 1 active NA campaign currently.

    that has been tried in swtor. result: -800k subs after that patch. i seriously dont get the problem. it takes 1-2 days /played to hit vr1 in eso. ppl should use the time they spend on making these threads about how unfair it is on lvling their toons and they would be vr1. infact the game is out almost 2 months now, if ppl still dont have atleast 1 vr1 char by now they got no right to complain anyways. no problem if ppl play casually but if they cant find 48 hours of free time in 2 months they cant expect to be competitive in pvp. thats less than an hour per day fyi.

    Well if good at exploiting yes... but honestly 1-2 weeks of a mix of casual/hard play would get you there... personally I would say 3 weeks to normally get to vr1 if only doing quests.... little faster if doing some pvp in between.
  • lao
    lao
    ✭✭✭✭
    lao wrote: »
    slayer7800 wrote: »
    Some people have suggested having different campaigns for pre veteran ranks. I'm not sure if they have the population to support that though seeing there is really only 1 active NA campaign currently.

    that has been tried in swtor. result: -800k subs after that patch. i seriously dont get the problem. it takes 1-2 days /played to hit vr1 in eso. ppl should use the time they spend on making these threads about how unfair it is on lvling their toons and they would be vr1. infact the game is out almost 2 months now, if ppl still dont have atleast 1 vr1 char by now they got no right to complain anyways. no problem if ppl play casually but if they cant find 48 hours of free time in 2 months they cant expect to be competitive in pvp. thats less than an hour per day fyi.

    Well if good at exploiting yes... but honestly 1-2 weeks of a mix of casual/hard play would get you there... personally I would say 3 weeks to normally get to vr1 if only doing quests.... little faster if doing some pvp in between.

    you dont need any kind of exploit to hit vr1 in 1-2 days /played.............
  • Cody
    Cody
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    lao wrote: »
    NookyZooky wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    NookyZooky wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    slayer7800 wrote: »
    Some people have suggested having different campaigns for pre veteran ranks. I'm not sure if they have the population to support that though seeing there is really only 1 active NA campaign currently.

    that has been tried in swtor. result: -800k subs after that patch. i seriously dont get the problem. it takes 1-2 days /played to hit vr1 in eso. ppl should use the time they spend on making these threads about how unfair it is on lvling their toons and they would be vr1. infact the game is out almost 2 months now, if ppl still dont have atleast 1 vr1 char by now they got no right to complain anyways. no problem if ppl play casually but if they cant find 48 hours of free time in 2 months they cant expect to be competitive in pvp. thats less than an hour per day fyi.

    If you reached VR1 in 2 days, then you had ALOT of free time, and power grinded. im sorry to tell you this, but not everyone has that kind of time. it took me a month to reach VR1, and I even had nights with absolutely nothing to do, and I played ESO all day those days. Im sure you used exploits and lame tactics, as you cant do it in 2 days if you quest. There is nothing wrong with casual players. Nor is there nothing wrong with low-level players wanting to be able to PLAY PvP. businesses lie because brain-dead idiots like you let them without calling them on it. I should not have to wait till my VR ranks to play a game mode that is supposed to be for everyone. You need to understand this, and stop being such a close-minded, jerk.
    People like you are the reasons why companies care so little about their customers. People like you SHOULD NOT have the right to voice their opinions, because you only make things worse. Shut the heck up with your elitist nonsense. And realize that not everyone can get to V10 in 3 days like half of you people did.

    so not doing some idiotic bugged quests is using exploits and lame tactics now. ur opinion has been noted and disregarded. get lost.
    you completely ignored 95% of that post. If you reached VR1 in 2 days, you must have done some kind of exploit, or you have ALLOT of free time, not everyone has that kind of time.

    if u run a duo u can grind to 50 in 17 hours. no exploit or lame tactic needed. just pure grind at the correct spots. the spots are no secret either u can find video guides all over youtube.
    not everyone wants to grind. that's what you are not getting. grinding is boring. I want to enjoy the lore of the game. I should not have to relentlessly grind for 17 hours just to be able to play PvP. in fact, I should be able to quest and enjoy the lore,e while STILL being able to PvP. do you understand now, friend? does your thick skull have this information processed? I hope, because we are done.

    Edited by Cody on May 29, 2014 2:37AM
  • lao
    lao
    ✭✭✭✭
    NookyZooky wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    NookyZooky wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    NookyZooky wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    slayer7800 wrote: »
    Some people have suggested having different campaigns for pre veteran ranks. I'm not sure if they have the population to support that though seeing there is really only 1 active NA campaign currently.

    that has been tried in swtor. result: -800k subs after that patch. i seriously dont get the problem. it takes 1-2 days /played to hit vr1 in eso. ppl should use the time they spend on making these threads about how unfair it is on lvling their toons and they would be vr1. infact the game is out almost 2 months now, if ppl still dont have atleast 1 vr1 char by now they got no right to complain anyways. no problem if ppl play casually but if they cant find 48 hours of free time in 2 months they cant expect to be competitive in pvp. thats less than an hour per day fyi.

    If you reached VR1 in 2 days, then you had ALOT of free time, and power grinded. im sorry to tell you this, but not everyone has that kind of time. it took me a month to reach VR1, and I even had nights with absolutely nothing to do, and I played ESO all day those days. Im sure you used exploits and lame tactics, as you cant do it in 2 days if you quest. There is nothing wrong with casual players. Nor is there nothing wrong with low-level players wanting to be able to PLAY PvP. businesses lie because brain-dead idiots like you let them without calling them on it. I should not have to wait till my VR ranks to play a game mode that is supposed to be for everyone. You need to understand this, and stop being such a close-minded, jerk.
    People like you are the reasons why companies care so little about their customers. People like you SHOULD NOT have the right to voice their opinions, because you only make things worse. Shut the heck up with your elitist nonsense. And realize that not everyone can get to V10 in 3 days like half of you people did.

    so not doing some idiotic bugged quests is using exploits and lame tactics now. ur opinion has been noted and disregarded. get lost.
    you completely ignored 95% of that post. If you reached VR1 in 2 days, you must have done some kind of exploit, or you have ALLOT of free time, not everyone has that kind of time.

    if u run a duo u can grind to 50 in 17 hours. no exploit or lame tactic needed. just pure grind at the correct spots. the spots are no secret either u can find video guides all over youtube.
    not everyone wants to grind. that's what you are not getting. grinding is boring. I want to enjoy the lore of the game. I should not have to relentlessly grind for 17 hours just to be able to play PvP. in fact, I should be able to quest and enjoy the lore,e while STILL being able to PvP. do you understand now, friend? does your thick skull have this information processed? I hope, because we are done.

    ah so u belong to the "i want it and i want it now and i dont want to put any effort in to get it" generation.

    WoW is this way ->
  • fyendiarb16_ESO
    fyendiarb16_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    @lao‌ Would you mind it that as a veteran player you had a bit of challenge killing a non veteran? I mean you would still have the advantage of gear, skill points and ranked skill trees up to 50 to use the top end abilities. So the chance you would lose would be small, but a skilled non veteran player would stand a chance against an unskilled veteran.

    Would you be alright with such a buff for non veterans? You will still reap the benefit of your hard work and those that decide to take leveling slow, yet still want to enjoy pvp, could do that and have more fun than now.

    I am not on to say "I want it all and I want it now,", but I am also not someone to say "I have worked hard for it, so I deserve to be indestructible to non veterans".

    I honestly think that boosting non veteran players a bit more would benefit both sides. The skilled non veterans can kill bad veterans and skilled veterans would still rule the playing field.

    As it is now, especially with the buff to npc's and leaving behind the non veterans, you don't find any challenge when you encounter some lower level players. You can easily solo 5 of them without fear of dying. Wouldn't you like to have at least a bit of challenge?

    As I said before and will say again; the buff to non veterans should still leave the veterans stronger, just not by this crazy amount.

    Before the patch I could kill the npc's in Cyrodiil pve with some challenge and time with my then in her 20's healing specced nightblade. Now those npc's destroy her in while she has gotten to lvl 36. Not talking guards here btw, they should be much stronger to keep sieges a challenge for everyone.

    Would you mind if we non veterans get buffed to the strength of the normal npc's in Cyrodiil? We would still be much weaker than you, but would last longer than 2 seconds. For example a veteran dragon knight pulled me towards him with his chains a few days back, just those chains took 70% of my health.

    The fact that I died very quickly was no problem since he managed to pull me into a group of theirs so I should have been destroyed. I was careless and deserved a thrashing, but the damage only his pull did scared me. It clearly showed that the difference between veterans and non veterans is too great.

    This is not a game with normal open pvp where top level players are free to gank newbies. This is a game in which newbies get a boost so that they can at least put of a bit of a fight. The last patch and high ranked veterans broke that.

    The result was that they needed to buff the npc's, but forgot to buff the non veterans by the same amount.

    If you got this far, thanks for reading and sorry for the long post. :)
  • Cheatingdeath23
    Cheatingdeath23
    ✭✭✭
    @lao‌ Would you mind it that as a veteran player you had a bit of challenge killing a non veteran? I mean you would still have the advantage of gear, skill points and ranked skill trees up to 50 to use the top end abilities. So the chance you would lose would be small, but a skilled non veteran player would stand a chance against an unskilled veteran.

    Would you be alright with such a buff for non veterans? You will still reap the benefit of your hard work and those that decide to take leveling slow, yet still want to enjoy pvp, could do that and have more fun than now.

    I am not on to say "I want it all and I want it now,", but I am also not someone to say "I have worked hard for it, so I deserve to be indestructible to non veterans".

    I honestly think that boosting non veteran players a bit more would benefit both sides. The skilled non veterans can kill bad veterans and skilled veterans would still rule the playing field.

    As it is now, especially with the buff to npc's and leaving behind the non veterans, you don't find any challenge when you encounter some lower level players. You can easily solo 5 of them without fear of dying. Wouldn't you like to have at least a bit of challenge?

    As I said before and will say again; the buff to non veterans should still leave the veterans stronger, just not by this crazy amount.

    Before the patch I could kill the npc's in Cyrodiil pve with some challenge and time with my then in her 20's healing specced nightblade. Now those npc's destroy her in while she has gotten to lvl 36. Not talking guards here btw, they should be much stronger to keep sieges a challenge for everyone.

    Would you mind if we non veterans get buffed to the strength of the normal npc's in Cyrodiil? We would still be much weaker than you, but would last longer than 2 seconds. For example a veteran dragon knight pulled me towards him with his chains a few days back, just those chains took 70% of my health.

    The fact that I died very quickly was no problem since he managed to pull me into a group of theirs so I should have been destroyed. I was careless and deserved a thrashing, but the damage only his pull did scared me. It clearly showed that the difference between veterans and non veterans is too great.

    This is not a game with normal open pvp where top level players are free to gank newbies. This is a game in which newbies get a boost so that they can at least put of a bit of a fight. The last patch and high ranked veterans broke that.

    The result was that they needed to buff the npc's, but forgot to buff the non veterans by the same amount.

    If you got this far, thanks for reading and sorry for the long post. :)

    The only thing that I can think of is that the "good news" is only the most dedicated players (V10+) will be regulars in PvP.

    So if you don't want to be playing with casuals, it probably works perfectly.

    But I agree with you, I think that there should be a slight difference between buffed Levels 10-50 and unbuffed vets.
  • Kungfu
    Kungfu
    ✭✭✭✭
    tldr: My perspective = I would LOVE this game if I could level 100% in Cyrodiil. And I think we're close to that. BUT... Stat & damage bolstering needs to be tweaked a little such that your character's level is taken into account & levels 10 - 49 cause less and less need to leave PvP and go PvE just to survive \ compete.

    @lao, just try to be less of a *** and people will listen to you. Insulting people you know nothing about and making up statistics doesn't help you prove your points.
    Some basic grammar and formatting would help a bit too, really.

    @Cheatingdeat23 wasn't whining and I'll bet he / she represents a strong percentage of the player base. Many of us haven't reached VR ranks yet for all the reasons listed in that post. If you don't like it lao, that's no excuse to insult people or to outright dismiss their concerns for Cyrodiil bolstering & NPC damage. Why exactly are you so angry about the idea of increasing low-level bolstering? I'm not here whining - I'm offering up the thought that maybe the game would be more fun for ALL levels if you could truly get out there and play well at any stage. Why exactly would that suck?
    I should be required to lose to another player because he / she preferred to PvE through VRs / dungeons / etc. ?

    Why is it that so many gamers are so definitively against letting people level in PvP / AvA / RvR zones? All it really boils down to is that there are some people out there who prefer to level in PvP zones IF they can. NPCs doing damage at levels that one-shot a bolstered level 10 or 3-shot a bolstered level 30 is a great way to block that... but aren't you really just saying "look what ZOS developed! We are so proud of our PvE system that we don't care whether you prefer it or not - PLAY IT OR DIE REPEATEDLY" ?

    @Adramelach‌ Sorry that I get caught up with trolls. I intended to try and help you regain this thread from the hijack here and I've apparently only fueled it more. My apologies for that.
    I think a lot of people would agree with your experience. And I am willing to bet that ZOS will change things up. I have no definitive proof or announcements to go on, but I would bet a good chunk of gold on another increase in the Cyrodiil 'buffs' for low level players.

    I personally think this change came about because it became clear (as @TheGrandAlliance‌ mentioned) that a small group of high PvE level players can wreak havoc on an undefended map in a single night.

    But, with all due respect to Zenimax's efforts, that's not something that should be balanced for. Players will inevitably reach the highest achievable level and the hardcores will group up together & overrun whatever they can. You just have to let them and balance on the mid-range player base.

    IMO - level 10's should be fodder. They should get out there and realize very quickly that they either need to stealth EVERYwhere or go level. By level 30, I think players should be able to hold their own against anything but VR ranks (in the unattainable, ideal 1v1 where all things are equal). By level 40, shouldn't Cyrodiil be a potential leveling ground?



    Stat & damage bolstering just needs to be tweaked a little and (IMO) it should be done in such a way that your character's level is taken into account. So that levels 10 - 49 feel less and less need to leave PvP and go PvE just to survive.
    Edited by Kungfu on May 29, 2014 3:07PM
  • drwoody44b14_ESO
    drwoody44b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    ErykGrimm wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    Arreyanne wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    slayer7800 wrote: »
    Some people have suggested having different campaigns for pre veteran ranks. I'm not sure if they have the population to support that though seeing there is really only 1 active NA campaign currently.

    that has been tried in swtor. result: -800k subs after that patch. i seriously dont get the problem. it takes 1-2 days /played to hit vr1 in eso. ppl should use the time they spend on making these threads about how unfair it is on lvling their toons and they would be vr1. infact the game is out almost 2 months now, if ppl still dont have atleast 1 vr1 char by now they got no right to complain anyways. no problem if ppl play casually but if they cant find 48 hours of free time in 2 months they cant expect to be competitive in pvp. thats less than an hour per day fyi.

    Just based off this post , you don't want people that give you a challenge you want free kills. easy kills, one shot kills etc etc.

    I would go a bit further based off this response that you love to go to the lvl 10 zone on you're geared out PvP toon slaughter lvl 10 and them tell them "it's a PvP server what are you complaining about."

    And people wonder why games with multiple servers merge the PvP server together first, Things that make you go HUh

    I's also very much like to see this magical 800,000 sub decrease based soley on the information with which you provided in the post.

    Do you work for BioWare Austin?

    http://i.imgur.com/Dt8zJ.png

    note: the graph is not quite up to date but u can see the tendency and i couldnt find anything more recent. didnt rly try hard tho if u care enough google it urself.

    your welcome

    and no id prefer fighting more vr players as they give more interesting fights. ur just supermad right now. if u would possess the ability to read properly u would realize that i said ppl should level up instead of whining about absolutely everything all the frikkin time. its pisseasy to get a vr level character in this game but if ppl insist on whining all day instead of lvling and still dont have a single vr character at this point after 2 months almost they deserve to get killed..

    doesnt rly matter what i say anyways as ur just a cranky little boy who wants everything handed to him on a silver plate.

    "mimimi i wanna be teh rockstar in pvp but i dont wanna put any effort in. y u no let me pewpew at l10 stoopid game?! mimimi"

    disgusting....

    Not sure if your aware of this, mongrel, not everyone lives in their mothers basement and have the time to play 80 hours a week. If your IQ was higher than 80 you might have been able to reason that out. But you keep trying buddy.

    I play 2-3 hours a day and I'm VR8.


    So yes, you're mad
  • drwoody44b14_ESO
    drwoody44b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭

    you could lvl up in RVR entirely in DAOC as well as Warhammer both rvr was simlar to what ESO has as they are all besed off DAOC RVR however you can no level effectivly in AVA . and now with the buffing all mobs to V rank 5 in AVA .

    This...just so people know....is 100% incorrect. You could not level in RvR in Daoc or Warhammer. Daoc gave no xp for pvp kills, and Warhammer gave very few. They did have lower level pvp zones however. Warhammers low level pvp areas were dead after the first month, and daocs BG zones were dead except two (which....still required you to level. One of the two active BG's had a level requirement of 35-40...out of 50 levels. The other was 20-25, which you would cap out RP's for that level range in a few days)

    Source - I played both religiously. You always had to level to max level before going into the big boy rvr zones. Anything 49 and below would be 1 shotted.

    Edited by drwoody44b14_ESO on May 29, 2014 2:54PM
  • Kungfu
    Kungfu
    ✭✭✭✭

    you could lvl up in RVR entirely in DAOC as well as Warhammer both rvr was simlar to what ESO has as they are all besed off DAOC RVR however you can no level effectivly in AVA . and now with the buffing all mobs to V rank 5 in AVA .

    This...just so people know....is 100% incorrect. You could not level in RvR in Daoc or Warhammer. Daoc gave no xp for pvp kills, and Warhammer gave very few. They did have lower level pvp zones however. Warhammers low level pvp areas were dead after the first month, and daocs BG zones were dead except two (which....still required you to level. One of the two active BG's had a level requirement of 35-40...out of 50 levels. The other was 20-25, which you would cap out RP's for that level range in a few days)

    Source - I played both religiously. You always had to level to max level before going into the big boy rvr zones.

    Not to be a prick but Woody's right. I DID level via BGs in Thidranki and Molvik (DAOC) on every character I had after they were implemented. BUT... that actually slowed my leveling progress to a crawl. I actually liked that. Those BGs were a blast.

    In retrospect, I think the WAR zones were poorly implemented. But to get back on track here, I think Cyrodiil can offer much, MUCH better opportunity. Technically speaking, I do believe the leveling now is already faster than those other two games.

    But I'd sure like to see it improve even more, personally.

    ErykGrimm wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    Arreyanne wrote: »
    lao wrote: »
    slayer7800 wrote: »
    Some people have suggested having different campaigns for pre veteran ranks. I'm not sure if they have the population to support that though seeing there is really only 1 active NA campaign currently.

    that has been tried in swtor. result: -800k subs after that patch. i seriously dont get the problem. it takes 1-2 days /played to hit vr1 in eso. ppl should use the time they spend on making these threads about how unfair it is on lvling their toons and they would be vr1. infact the game is out almost 2 months now, if ppl still dont have atleast 1 vr1 char by now they got no right to complain anyways. no problem if ppl play casually but if they cant find 48 hours of free time in 2 months they cant expect to be competitive in pvp. thats less than an hour per day fyi.

    Just based off this post , you don't want people that give you a challenge you want free kills. easy kills, one shot kills etc etc.

    I would go a bit further based off this response that you love to go to the lvl 10 zone on you're geared out PvP toon slaughter lvl 10 and them tell them "it's a PvP server what are you complaining about."

    And people wonder why games with multiple servers merge the PvP server together first, Things that make you go HUh

    I's also very much like to see this magical 800,000 sub decrease based soley on the information with which you provided in the post.

    Do you work for BioWare Austin?

    http://i.imgur.com/Dt8zJ.png

    note: the graph is not quite up to date but u can see the tendency and i couldnt find anything more recent. didnt rly try hard tho if u care enough google it urself.

    your welcome

    and no id prefer fighting more vr players as they give more interesting fights. ur just supermad right now. if u would possess the ability to read properly u would realize that i said ppl should level up instead of whining about absolutely everything all the frikkin time. its pisseasy to get a vr level character in this game but if ppl insist on whining all day instead of lvling and still dont have a single vr character at this point after 2 months almost they deserve to get killed..

    doesnt rly matter what i say anyways as ur just a cranky little boy who wants everything handed to him on a silver plate.

    "mimimi i wanna be teh rockstar in pvp but i dont wanna put any effort in. y u no let me pewpew at l10 stoopid game?! mimimi"

    disgusting....

    Not sure if your aware of this, mongrel, not everyone lives in their mothers basement and have the time to play 80 hours a week. If your IQ was higher than 80 you might have been able to reason that out. But you keep trying buddy.

    I play 2-3 hours a day and I'm VR8.


    So yes, you're mad

    @drwoody44b14_ESO‌ but that's not really intuitive now, is it? These games should be called RPGMMOs. It is, after all, an RPG first. The MMO part has only just recently been introduced. Can you explain why the fact that you raced to VR8 -- sorry but you did compared to what an RPG really is intended to be: a long-term investment of imagination and character immersion -- should negatively affect my gameplay in Cyrodiil?

    I'm glad that you and others like you are proud of having reached VR##. I'm even impressed in some cases. That's awesome that you can achieve those levels with your time and that you get as much time as you do that you can devote to this game.

    However, it doesn't really explain why my slower-leveling characters should get stomped on in Cyrodiil. It's a PvP \ AvA \ RvR zone. WTF does a PvE level REALLY have to do with ANY of it and why should my experience out there be diminished simply because you have some great need to have your PvE-invested time justified through the ability to stomp on anything less than VR5? Similarly, what does it gain YOU to make sure that WE cannot take hits from guards at lower levels?

    You're saying I NEED to get to Craglorn before I have proven myself worthy of fighting you in PvP? Doesn't really jive logically for me.
    Edited by Kungfu on May 29, 2014 3:20PM
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