Pewpie wrote: »

All classes having sneak/stealth is ridiculous. Remove crouch stealth! It is a LOL in pvp that anyone can stealth so easily on the maps. One of the most powerful abilities to become INVISIBLE should NOT be a FREE ability on the CTRL button!

SUGGESTION:

Instead add invisibility spell for mage guild, make it an aoe invis (for your group) and moving outside of the the spell range ("dome") will make you visible again. Making it possible to hide a bunch of people under a "dome" of invisibility on the map. Counter it with the possibility to see it when in range (longer range than stealth) for magelight ability.

Add a "hide" ability into fighter/undaunted that works similar to the current crouching mechanics. Allow movement, but VERY slow. Much slower than current crouch speed.

IMPORTANT thing is that if you wish to sneak/stealth, you should SLOT an ability for it!

Even NB should. It should be their shadow cloak. Make the cloak ability work infinite out of combat, and let it last until you get hit. If you are in combat it should work like now, only for 2.5s when activated.

There are alot of things that need fixing or adjusting or just to be looked at but sneaking is NOT one of them, It has been done very good in this game. In its current state everyone has a basic sneak that is just good enough to let you hide off to the side of the path and avoid being ran over by groups and zergs but if an enemy gets somewhat close or looks in your direction they will see you. Trying to move drains your stamina and will put you at a disadvantage for a fight.

Now if you sacrified heavy armor survivability or the magic damage of light armor and choose to wear medium armor you will have much better sneak and mobility and even give that assasin style play to land a sneak attack.

The current state of sneak is perfect if you ask me, it lets people avoid being ganked when they are outnumbered and it also allows for ambushes and a very tactical play

Turelus wrote: »

Confirming in real life not everyone can hide, only the select few with years of training know how.

I can hide in real life just fine. Just ask my boss when he needs that TP report....

OP, here's a few tips that might help you find stealthed people:

• If you're riding along on your way to a keep under attack and you see a really large rock that someone could be hiding behind, you're probably about to be ambushed.
• If you're riding up to the door of a keep while enemies are attacking, you're very likely to be ambushed in a few seconds.
• If you are using a siege engine to attack a keep and there are enemy players inside the keep and no one guarding your back, more likely than not you will be ambushed shortly.
• If you are carrying a scroll, or healing: Expect an ambush.
• If you are attempting to finish a PvE quest in Cyrodiil and you stop to check the map, you should expect an ambush.
• If you are standing up and there are no knives in your back, you should expect a stealther to fix that problem as soon as possible with an ambush.

Of course, there are more options and ways to find stealthers, but this should give you a good idea of where to start.

Edit:

andreas.rudroffb16_ESO wrote: »

i would vote yes to remove it, just because of AvA issues (and i am not a NB)

a raid of 80 people stealthing in 30 meters away is an issue

I'm sorry, but military history says that it is not an issue. It has happened a lot. Historically, generals have managed sneak attacks with elephants. It is not as difficult as you believe.

There was a general who snuck an entire regiment of ragtag volunteers across a river under the noses (literally) of trained professional mercenaries. Stealth is one part not drawing attention, but most of it is knowing that the other side is not paying any attention in the first place.

tl;dr: You have the tools to detect stealth. If you don't use them, you should expect an ambush.

Butcherboy wrote:

tl;dr: You have the tools to detect stealth. If you don't use them, you should expect an ambush.

You have the tools within a 12 meter radius. That aspect hasn't really been the focus of this thread so far, but I don't think it's unfair to ask for more counters to Sneak. By the time you detect a group with Mage Light it's too late to do anything and the ambush is a success. There ought to be a ranged reveal at the very least to counter stealthed groups. Even an activated component of Mage Light to detect an area or to cast on friendly/enemy players would do wonders.

This is not WoW take your wow bs where only rogues should stealth

aeroch wrote: »

By the time you detect a group with Mage Light it's too late to do anything and the ambush is a success.

Actually once you've spotted the enemies they lose a considerably heap of front end damage, as their stealth is broken. If there were so many that they just zerg over you anyway...well, they'd just zerg over you anyway.

Speaking of which...what's the allied buff range for Radiant Magelight? Having made the point above, it comes to my attention that if it's the same radius as the magelight itself it's kinda redundant. I guess the difference would be that without it the enemy has to be within 12m to negate and with it the enemy could be negated from as far away as 12m + attack range.

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

As i offered in a post earlier(only half in jest), ppl need to think.

You are in the middle of a PvP zone, do you just wander through a wide open exposed field in broad daylight and expect to not be seen? You have to assume there is an ambush and behave accordingly. You hug the walls of a valley, you stay in the wooded areas, you chance fording that shallow stream instead of crossing the 'safe' bridge.

That's just common sense. And i bet you 100 gold the OP didn't use any, got ganked and is asking for a huge change to make the sting go away.

I think you're arguing an entirely different point and you're focused on OP got ganked out in the open and makes a cry post. Which there has been plenty of on these forums but I think it overshadows legitimate points because Sneak and its counters need to be looked at

There are a lot of scenarios where the player(s) involved know where the enemy is but there's no way to reveal them. Throw random ranged AoEs and hope they hit, maybe. Rush in regardless and let the enemy reveal themselves, sure. But there's no reason that a group of stealthers shouldn't be able to be revealed at range reliably. If our group charges an enemy group sieging our keep, and they click Control to disappear and "ambush" us, it's dumb.

There ought to be a mechanic for players to say no, you're right here, reveal the enemy, or at least reveal the area where they were, and proceed accordingly. Sneak to counter Sneak is the most reliable option right now but doing X because it's the only counter to X isn't good game mechanics.

aeroch wrote: »

malikwalker_ESO wrote: »

As i offered in a post earlier(only half in jest), ppl need to think.

You are in the middle of a PvP zone, do you just wander through a wide open exposed field in broad daylight and expect to not be seen? You have to assume there is an ambush and behave accordingly. You hug the walls of a valley, you stay in the wooded areas, you chance fording that shallow stream instead of crossing the 'safe' bridge.

That's just common sense. And i bet you 100 gold the OP didn't use any, got ganked and is asking for a huge change to make the sting go away.

I think you're arguing an entirely different point and you're focused on OP got ganked out in the open and makes a cry post. Which there has been plenty of on these forums but I think it overshadows legitimate points because Sneak and its counters need to be looked at

There are a lot of scenarios where the player(s) involved know where the enemy is but there's no way to reveal them. Throw random ranged AoEs and hope they hit, maybe. Rush in regardless and let the enemy reveal themselves, sure. But there's no reason that a group of stealthers shouldn't be able to be revealed at range reliably. If our group charges an enemy group sieging our keep, and they click Control to disappear and "ambush" us, it's dumb.

There ought to be a mechanic for players to say no, you're right here, reveal the enemy, or at least reveal the area where they were, and proceed accordingly. Sneak to counter Sneak is the most reliable option right now but doing X because it's the only counter to X isn't good game mechanics.

Late reply sorry.

You are right, i'm focusing on the OP. It set the course of the thread after all. But i'm also looking at the ramifications of the suggested change. Bear with me.

At its core, PvP is about killing other players. No matter how much you try and structure it, no matter how much content you layer on or about it, that is what PvP is about.

Ganking the other guy.

Now wisely or not, ZOS has a game that touts both robust PvE and PvP play. That's fine and dandy. What isn't so great is ZOS has only one set of game mechanics. As of right now, if a change is made to X function because of how it effects gameplay in PvP, then that function is also going to be changed in PvE.

Moving on.

The OP goes into the game's designated PvP area and normal PvP functionality occurs. His being ganked by someone is working as intended.

BUT

The OP is now pissed and decides that its time to raise a call to arms against Game Function X because of his perception that it is flawed. The OP and his supporters continually downplay or plain gloss over the fact that Game Function X is balanced by several other Game Functions to keep it in check. And the whole cabal argues for an unnecessary change to Game Function X....

....but they forget about the fact that Game Function X is also an integral part of the game's PvE structure.

Locking crouched sneaking behind slotted skills, making it class specific, changing the existing functionality of existing class skills; all are some of the ways i've seen in this thread to adjust something that doesn't need fixing. Something that if changed, will in turn destroy(or at least needlessly over-complicate) one of the key game mechanics in PvE play.

Its been done plenty of times over the years in other games, but it has always ended badly imo: You don't want to balance a game with both PvP and PvE elements around one or the other. If you have both, they need to be balanced around themselves, with both styles kept separate from each other as much as possible.

---

TLDR: Unless ZOS decides to make PvP changes effect only PvP areas and vice versa for PvE, the whole of the OP is just flawed and ultimately a waste of time and effort that will cause more trouble than its worth. I mean seriously, look at the recent changes to the vampire skill line because of imbalances parts of it were causing in PvP-and that is a totally optional skill line. Can you imagine the crap-storm that would hit if ZOS were to do what the OP is suggesting?

---

TLDR specifically for the OP: If you don't want to be inconvenienced by PvP, stay out of Cyrodiil. Either that or make peace with the fact that you are prolly gonna die a few times-usually in quick succession-and almost always cheaply.

Pewpie wrote: »

Kitma wrote: »

You've not played an ES game before, have you?

You have not played a MMO game before, have you?

EOS = more mmo than ES or it is going to fail hard which it is already on the way to. Not because of this particular issue adressed here, but the fact that people think like you, and probably the devs too, resulting in a game that do not work well in multiplayer and mmo environments. Just take a look at the bots. The devs had no clue and wasn't prepared the slightest the game would almost completely break because of it. If you mention EOS to any gamer now, the first thing you will hear is "bot infestered" game.

First off its eso not eos lol
secound and more importantly the bots show that the game is thriving they would not waste there time if the game was dying...
Third stealth is not only an elder scrolls thing since daggerfall in 1996 , realisticallt everyone can drop into a crouch and hide in a bush so stop crying or this one will feed you to the aniquan were-lions

Pewpie wrote: »

Kitma wrote: »

You've not played an ES game before, have you?

You have not played a MMO game before, have you?

EOS = more mmo than ES or it is going to fail hard which it is already on the way to. Not because of this particular issue adressed here, but the fact that people think like you, and probably the devs too, resulting in a game that do not work well in multiplayer and mmo environments. Just take a look at the bots. The devs had no clue and wasn't prepared the slightest the game would almost completely break because of it. If you mention EOS to any gamer now, the first thing you will hear is "bot infestered" game.

Star Wars Galaxies, Age of Conan, Matrix Online, DC Universe Online. Star Trek Online, Dungeons & Dragons Online...

I actually met my girlfriend in an MMO!

Safe to say, I have many many years of varied MMO experience under my belt and I, along with apparently DROVES of like minded players posting in this thread see NO problem with the way that stealth works in PvP.

You don't like it? Fine. At least try to come with a coherent argument though (as well as trying not to belittle the experience of people that you've NEVER met or interacted with before). The logic behind 'Stealth in PvP is bad because there are bots in game which proves that ESO don't know what their doing' is akin to trying to reason that Person A must drive their car terribly because their cooking sucks!

I'm sorry but you dropped XYZ amount of money for an Elder Scrolls game. Online or not, there are certain things that you had to have known would be in it and stealth for every character was always going to be one of those things.

And take away healing from non-Templars. And spells from Dragonknights. And bow skills from everyone not a Nightblade.

...

The World of Warcraft you are looking for is over there. *points into the bushes*

Ciao, Muh!

I'm okay with everyone being able to sneak - it's part of the Elder Scroll series.

The problem is, the detection system is set up poorly, and is not very in depth. A heavy armor dragonknight tank wearing a sword and shield sneaking around is just as effective as a light armor nightblade with two daggers.

There should be penalties and bonuses beyond simply 1 medium armor passive.

Nah... i dont think so.

Why not throw in fly also, so everyone can fly around a bit? I guess you fangirls would love that from other ES games. Just to make it "true" to the ES theme which seems to be a VERY BIG argument for you fangirls.

Ohh yeah, lets make it the F key for everyone, hell why not also make so you can stealth while flying!

It will be great with PvP! *sarcasm*

Do you guys really have only one thing to say that is WoW related?

The FREE sneak FOR EVERYONE sucks for PvP, period. It might have worked in some old ES game. Anyone with a brainpower larger than a toad will understand that.

You can counter stealth? What a joke. What was magelight 12m? Most attacks and gap closeners for ranged are over 20. You will be slaughtered before you have the chance to detect an ARMY marching up at you ON A FIELD. Yey, what a great game this is for PvP...

Hear hear, i also disagree with OP.

If you don't like the PvP/PvE with these mechanics then maybe Wildstar is more your game.

Pewpie wrote: »

The PvP in this game is basically zerg based, with some poor v10 sobs trying to gank people joining up on the zergs. Making a zerg completely stealth and sneak around on the map is laughable.

And if you get rid of the current stealth mechanic you can say goodbye to the solo roamers and small groups, which will become fairly pointless, and everybody will clump together in even bigger zergballs for safety.