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Remove crouching stealth
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Pewpie✭✭✭
I don't PVP ever, but even in PVE I agree with this idea, it never ceased to amuse me when I was able to successfully sneak right behind a mob in Oblivion while I was wearing full metal plate!now maybe there should be bigger penalties for those sneaking in heavy armour (less stamina regen while hidden) but that's something which needs constructive and educated discussion on.
Maybe they should make it impossible to sneak if you have more than 2 pieces of heavy armor :P2 -
rawne1980b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭What i mean is that for NB stealth works like the shadow cloak ability. You will have to slot it though. Having invisiblity in an MMO should not be a FREE ability on your CTRL button. Its just pathetic beyond laughs.
It is not a nerf but an upgrade for NB. Making their shadow cloak work better.
Of course you will have to actually BE A STEALTH NB to use it. If you rather put stuff into your bar and not use the stealthing you shouldn't have it.
That's a nerf.
Having NB's slot a skill that is needed when they don't have to currently is a nerf.
No.
Just no.3 -
Catflinger✭✭✭
God forbid that anyone ever try anything different! *gasp*
HEY GUISE, ZENIMAX MADE A MECHANIC THAT IS DIFFERENT FROM THE NORM, LET'S RIOT7 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I thought I'd seen the worst idea in the world when people demanded that they bring the Dwemer back. I was wrong.----
Murray?6 -
Just keep it as it is, dont nerf for certian armor types because then people will only the types needed for succefull sneak..
I find this sneak thing very refreshing and awesome..1 -
Shillen✭✭✭This is what makes melees viable in PvP. They definitely shouldn't remove it.Please LOL my comments. I'm an aspiring comedian.0
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Xithian✭✭✭First off, basic stealth in ES is nothing special. You move very slowly, it eats stamina fairly quickly (vs distance traveled), and you can be seen from too far away to avoid people coming in your direction.
Medium armor lowers the range you can be detected at and lowers the stamina cost. The penalty for being in Heavy armor is that you don't get that bonus. Yes, clothies get that penalty too. I guess they decided mages were clumsy.
There are only two ways that I know of to up your stealth movement speed. One requires you to be a Nightblade and have a specific ability slotted (much like you're proposing they do with stealth itself...that would make it take two slots) and the other requires you to be a Vampire for the passive.
I honestly don't see much problem with stealth. If you are in PvP and someone gets away from you with stealth, you can stealth right up too. I get so many easy kills from people just running around Cyrodiil without a care in the world. Most people seem to act as if it's a Nightblade specific ability already.
If the problem is people getting the drop on YOU, then maybe you're one of my "easy kills". Avoid narrow pathways and bridges when you can. Always have Magelight up when you head up to a Skyshard (*sigh* one of my favorite ganks too...) or into a public dungeon.2 -
Spiritreaver_ESO✭✭✭First off, basic stealth in ES is nothing special. You move very slowly, it eats stamina fairly quickly (vs distance traveled), and you can be seen from too far away to avoid people coming in your direction.
Medium armor lowers the range you can be detected at and lowers the stamina cost. The penalty for being in Heavy armor is that you don't get that bonus. Yes, clothies get that penalty too. I guess they decided mages were clumsy.
There are only two ways that I know of to up your stealth movement speed. One requires you to be a Nightblade and have a specific ability slotted (much like you're proposing they do with stealth itself...that would make it take two slots) and the other requires you to be a Vampire for the passive.
I honestly don't see much problem with stealth. If you are in PvP and someone gets away from you with stealth, you can stealth right up too. I get so many easy kills from people just running around Cyrodiil without a care in the world. Most people seem to act as if it's a Nightblade specific ability already.
If the problem is people getting the drop on YOU, then maybe you're one of my "easy kills". Avoid narrow pathways and bridges when you can. Always have Magelight up when you head up to a Skyshard (*sigh* one of my favorite ganks too...) or into a public dungeon.
Just a quick add, you forgot the Steed Stone(movement+) power. I pair it with a piece of gear with the boost mundus stone trait(don't know if it actually gets a boost, but meh) and crouching is viable for any build imo.0 -
theyancey✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sneak requires stamina so we already have those controls. Some races have boosts to it also. Imperials rock at sneak.0 -
Xithian✭✭✭malikwalker_ESO wrote: »Just a quick add, you forgot the Steed Stone(movement+) power. I pair it with a piece of gear with the boost mundus stone trait(don't know if it actually gets a boost, but meh) and crouching is viable for any build imo.
I use The Steed, I just didn't mention it because it's a base movement increase, not stealth-specific. It's a fairly low bonus in either case. 5% + whatever the mundus gear gives. I'm guessing even a full set of mundus gear is less than +100% mundus effects, otherwise it'd probably be too good for some bonuses.0 -
TheRealDoc✭✭✭In PvP I think the stealth is fundamentally broken.
I mean, an entire zerg of 100+ people in full plate armour can crouch in the middle of bright, sunny, grassy field and be completely invisible, indefinitely!
Even solo, 1 person can do the same thing and wait until you gallop past and shoot you off your horse as you ride past. By the time you get up, you're already at half health and stunned, making you an easy finish.
Stealth in PvP is only liked by gankers looking for easy kills and those with no skills looking to escape.
Stealth actually encourages zerging to stay with the pack for protection.
The reason you can't find solo PvP is because everyone is crouched in the middle of a bright sunny field!
This is completely immersion breaking for me and puts me right off PvP.
Where is the skill and risk vs reward in any of this?
Solution: Make it skill, only for nightblades and limit it to medium and light armour only.2 -
Elvent✭✭✭✭
Well, people, you clearly know this isnt't an elder scrolls single player game anyways. It has to have mechanics to multiplayer and pvp.You've not played an ES game before, have you?
Letting anyone stealth might be fine in a single player game where you are the ONLY one having it. In a multiplayer environment with pvp, it is just ridiculous.
It's an elder scrolls game. The goal of this game is to have the same look and feel as the elder scrolls games....
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aeroch✭✭✭Sneak should be sneaking, not invisibility. Agree with the OP on that point. I don't agree that it should require a slot.
There are things that could be done to making sneaking sneaky and not an invisibility effect- Make undetected players visible but darker and harder to spot
- Remove the overhead alliance indicator for undetected players
- Undetected players are more difficult to spot when hiding in shadows or behind objects
- Players are easier to spot when they're standing in the sunlight or caught out in the open field
- Detecting a player only increases visibility for the detector
This would be PvP only, I don't think anyone is arguing that Sneak in PvE is an issue.
Every class should have access to the base mechanic and be able to Sneak, sure, but the base mechanic could use some work. The skill is remarkably true to the Elder Scrolls version we all know, but I don't think it works as well in an MMO PvP setting
And ideally there will be more stealth/invisibility mechanics as time goes on. I'd love to see Chameleon spells or Invisibility spells added with Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, and I'd also love to see a skill line with stealth/invisibility countersEdited by aeroch on 19 May 2014 14:220 -
Xithian✭✭✭A zerg force isn't going to be stealthing simply because it'd take half an hour to get to the nearest keep. Also, one person seeing through stealth breaks it completely. Someone 200 meters away will see you because that guy next to you happened to spot you. This means that one scout could out your entire hypothetical army.
The people wanting stealth limited don't seem to just be opposed to stealth for everyone...they seem to be opposed to stealth in Cyrodiil at all and just trying to limit it as much as possible.
So anyone using stealth offensively is a ganker, and anyone using stealth defensively is a no-skills loser. Basically anyone that uses stealth, ever. For anything. Good argument. Very insightful.TheRealDoc wrote: »Stealth in PvP is only liked by gankers looking for easy kills and those with no skills looking to escape.
But you're cool with the faction icon from a mile away highlighting you through heavy foliage and whatnot right? The lone runner on a dark rainy night running through the underbrush that can be seen by anyone for 200 meters in any direction...that's not immersion breaking to you, right?TheRealDoc wrote: »This is completely immersion breaking for me and puts me right off PvP.
You know that horses have three stats right? That one you keep forgetting, it prevents this. Maybe you shouldn't be running your horse ragged and keeping some stamina in reserve so that you aren't dismounted with a single attack. But...but...then it takes longer to run somewhere! It's called strategy. Pick, fast run and easily dismounted or moderate speed with a reserve for getaways.TheRealDoc wrote: »Even solo, 1 person can do the same thing and wait until you gallop past and shoot you off your horse as you ride past. By the time you get up, you're already at half health and stunned, making you an easy finish.
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Spiritreaver_ESO✭✭✭TheRealDoc wrote: »In PvP I think the stealth is fundamentally broken.
I mean, an entire zerg of 100+ people in full plate armour can crouch in the middle of bright, sunny, grassy field and be completely invisible, indefinitely!
Even solo, 1 person can do the same thing and wait until you gallop past and shoot you off your horse as you ride past. By the time you get up, you're already at half health and stunned, making you an easy finish.
Stealth in PvP is only liked by gankers looking for easy kills and those with no skills looking to escape.
Stealth actually encourages zerging to stay with the pack for protection.
The reason you can't find solo PvP is because everyone is crouched in the middle of a bright sunny field!
This is completely immersion breaking for me and puts me right off PvP.
Where is the skill and risk vs reward in any of this?
Solution: Make it skill, only for nightblades and limit it to medium and light armour only.
OR
You could just not run out into the middle of a sunny field in the middle of a PvP area.
I don't know about you, but when i'm in Cyrodiil i just assume there is a gank squad always just over the horizon and i behave accordingly.
Also, believe it or not, you can also slap on a few pieces of medium armor spend a few points and sneak about as well. Nothing is stopping you. Or if you are just totally averse to that suggestion, sack-up and put a point in Magelight.
You have options to counter crouched sneak already for god's sake.
But then, this is all just talk i suppose. ZOS isn't going to even consider what the OP is suggesting. Because even putting aside that its a silly idea and a waste of man-hours to implement, as pointed out there are counters to the mechanic in place already and if players choose to be idiotic and choose NOT to avail themselves of them-that is on those players.
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AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Um you do realise that if they did that they would have to redo the Khajiit racials as well, since Khajiit get a boost to stealth.All classes having sneak/stealth is ridiculous. Remove crouch stealth! It is a LOL in pvp that anyone can stealth so easily on the maps. One of the most powerful abilities to become INVISIBLE should NOT be a FREE ability on the CTRL button!
People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule1 -
Or you know... They could just increase the cost considerably so that sneaking become situational rather than standard procedure. This probably wont even affect PvE as your average sneaking time is like 3 seconds (unless you want to bypass every mob in the area, but you could just take out one group and rest a while).There are things that could be done to making sneaking sneaky and not invisibility. Make undetected players visible but darker and harder to spot, remove the overhead alliance indicator for undetected players, undetected players are more difficult to spot when hiding in shadows or behind objects and easier to spot when they're standing in the sunlight or caught out in the open field, detecting a player only increases visibility for the detector. This would be PvP only, I don't think anyone is arguing that Sneak in PvE is an issue.
I'm not really complaining here as I rather like sneaking. But entire armies sneaking for kilometers? That's kind of ***.
I will agree that you should be able to stay still in sneak, be hidden that way without dropping out of it. Moving should take effort. OR one could keep the current costs, but remove stamina regen while stealth (period). That way you have a limited range even if you stop for a breather - you wont regen any stamina so cant sneak further anyway until you move out of sneak.
Hiding in shadows or behind objects is nice in theory, but it become a little too complicated for an MMO IMO. I would settle for sneak bonuses during nights and penalties during daytime though.Edited by murklor007neb18_ESO on 19 May 2014 14:270 -
rhubbert_ESO✭✭✭Use mage's light if you are having trouble.Iris Umbra// Stamina Nightblade // Aldmeri Dominion0 -
Spiritreaver_ESO✭✭✭AlexDougherty wrote: »
Um you do realise that if they did that they would have to redo the Khajiit racials as well, since Khajiit get a boost to stealth.All classes having sneak/stealth is ridiculous. Remove crouch stealth! It is a LOL in pvp that anyone can stealth so easily on the maps. One of the most powerful abilities to become INVISIBLE should NOT be a FREE ability on the CTRL button!
Of course he/she didn't. They got jumped trying to do something in Cyrodiil, so now its a Tamriel-wide issue that should be fixed on the spot with no thought as to the ramifications across the board.
On my latest alt i got ganked getting a shard while i was doing the welcome to Cyrodiil quest. I was pissed a sec, but then i thought up a revenge strat, implemented it, and it worked. I got the shard and the ganker lost all the time it took him to sneak all the way into my Alliance's backyard.
What i didn't do was run to momma(in this case the ZOS forum we currently find ourselves perusing) and whine(surreptitiously) about the big bad bully in Cyrodiil who stole my lunch money.1 -
Talmet✭✭✭
You have not played a MMO game before, have you?You've not played an ES game before, have you?
EOS = more mmo than ES or it is going to fail hard which it is already on the way to. Not because of this particular issue adressed here, but the fact that people think like you, and probably the devs too, resulting in a game that do not work well in multiplayer and mmo environments. Just take a look at the bots. The devs had no clue and wasn't prepared the slightest the game would almost completely break because of it. If you mention EOS to any gamer now, the first thing you will hear is "bot infestered" game.
lol, if you are talking to people who are actually gamers & the first thing they say about ESO is that it is bot infested, then they are probably like 14 year olds who have never played any other game...
all games have bots/hacks/exploits/etc...are there more in ESO than in all other games? No. WoW has the most bots in any game (except for some asian f2p MMOs) If you don't agree, then you fail at noticing bots....(i.e. if you see someone in wow on a flying mount moving vertically at any time, 99% of the time, it's a bot.) Bots = gold = real life money, there's a larger market in WoW than in any other game, therefore there are more people botting in WoW than in any other game.
The only reason why people notice bots in ESO more than WoW, is because most bots in WoW are on flying mounts, picking flowers/mining which is not as noticeable as groups of bots running around an area killing mobs. But it is pretty easy to notice bots if you look for them in any game, and the idea that somehow ESO created bots/hacks/exploits is just dumb.
As for stealth...in the parlance of WoW (where you obviously come from)..."R U mad?" Or more simply "l2p noob"1 -
I think it's comical that the OP thinks this will be changed. In TES games everyone can sneak... everyone can use invisibility potions. The only class with a invisibility skill is Night Blade which is short duration.
There are counters to sneak like Mage Light and detection potions that everyone can use.
I think it's one of the cool things about ESO that shouldn't change. I'm tired of specific classes having stealth. You can make legitimate stealth builds on any class in ESO and no class is forced to be a stealth ganker unlike other games.
It sucks to be ganked by a stealther, but at least everyone can do it.1 -
ThisOnePosts✭✭✭✭✭I agree. This should at least require a skill if you are not a NB. All classes don't have spammable moving abilities (sorc) nor pampering extra armor abilities (dk)... why should all have instant invisibility at the push of a button?
I don't think it will matter much if they don't rebalance it or they do, however if they want a balanced game they should consider adding some things to NB and Templar, or at least giving them some class-exclusives ---- and adjust how stealth works for Non-Stealth classes.0 -
aeroch✭✭✭Regarding Mage Light, I'd really like the option to tag an area or a friendly/enemy player with the Mage Light orb, similar to the mechanic in Skyrim, so that it could be used as the personal toggle we're all familiar with or as a ranged area reveal. That would be a great change.Edited by aeroch on 19 May 2014 15:320
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Id much rather remove 360 block than the ability for everyone to sneak.1
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Gisgo✭✭✭✭✭You gotta be joking hiding forever is all my stamina NB can do atm.
Do you want me to quit?
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esoone✭✭✭For someone playing a elder scrolls game this is the weirdest suggestion ever. Maybe your not allowed to hide without your hiding shirt from mommy but serious.....1 -
kewl✭✭✭✭✭
✭The mechanic is fine. If you want to give NB a slight movement speed or stam redux when crouching, ok.1 -
Pewpie✭✭✭
Actually my NB, slotted with concealed blade, dark cloak, and vampire with skill 10, i sprint in sneak. Add more speed and it will move faster sneaking than normal sprint (sometimes it feels like i'm doing that already). (Everyone do not have vampire abilities i understand though).The mechanic is fine. If you want to give NB a slight movement speed or stam redux when crouching, ok.
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