Another skill that would be GREAT would be a quick in battle devour that heals you and gives a little time into the timer! More HP than timer, but something that you can avoid dropping in mid combat.

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

You can perform tests of your own to try to prove my werewolf form is just inferior. I would like to see the results. If there is an optimal werewolf build then I would like to know. I am trying to make the best out of being a werewolf but the werewolf just has too many drawbacks preventing it from being viable.

And this brings up and interesting question. Should we have to "build around" the werewolf ultimate? Currently, every ultimate in the game is good regardless of your build; where you put your attribute points, etc. Their strengths come from the nature of the ability (some are better for AoE, some are better single-target, some are CC while others are pure damage, etc.)

The werewolf ultimate is the only ultimate that is utter garbage if you don't specifically build around it. The only builds I've seen who say the WW is any good at all are 49 stam with stam enchants, all medium armor for the reduced stam costs, using pre-buffs before transforming... etc., etc.,

The question is, should an attack labeled "ultimate" require this level of dedication just to make it usable (not even amazing, just "not worse than before I transformed")? Personally, I don't think so. Perhaps part of the redesign of the werewolf would be to make it powerful without requiring you build specifically to use it correctly.

That, or remove it as an ultimate and give it to use as a regular hotbar ability.

-Travail.

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

@MasterLanz, I did a few, quick tests in Cyrodiil that I would like to share. Here it is

Veteran Rank 3, Nightblade
Attributes are 30 magicka, 19 Health. Stamina is gained with enchants, food buff, and werewolf passives.

While I didn't record results, I did most of my leveling alongside other characters, and ran plenty of dungeons. I could measurably compare my DPS outside of werewolf to other characters around me and see my dps surpassing theirs while in ww.

However, my werewolf build did invest 50% attributes into stamina. I haven't tried WW without stamina, so I can't comment on what kind of DPS that has by contrast, but I can say that with stamina the dps is quite high.

It's possible that the damage scaling ww gets off stamina is exceptional contrast to normal scaling. That might just be the key to players' success/failure.

There is also the factor of weapon. As far as I noticed, your werewolf form still factors your weapons and armor. If you were wearing heavy armor when you shifted, you will have your heavy armor stats, including set bonuses, enchantments, etc. I never noticed any loss of stats or armor that could be attributed to 'de-equipping' my gear. Same applied to my weapons and I could even still gain ranks in them while in ww. So while you're visually beasting out, the math behind the curtains is still your normal character, just with some stamina/health/damage changes going on.

One thing that I did test was using my 1h+shield versus my 2h in werewolf form, and when I beasted out with my 2h bar active, I had higher damage and longer range, whereas in 1h+shield I had higher armor and lower damage (I didn't test if WW's could still shield bash and gain the benefits of deadly bash. I didn't have it at the time).

While I didn't get exact numbers, fighting with a 2h in werewolf form basically seemed to amount to attacking with a 2h weapon at the attack speed of dual weapons, except even more powerful after the ww damage scaling from stamina. I wish I had recount at the time so that I could get an exact difference, but based on the number of attacks it took to kill things, my attacks were more or less hitting for double damage from what they were in human form using a 2h, and the actual attacks were as fast if not faster than dual wield attacks.


Now, all that said, part of the problem with werewolf is one of investment. While I got good mileage out of my ww form prior to the recent fix, I also had something like 30 skill points and half my attribute points invested into optimizing werewolf in ways I otherwise wouldn't have used (not a fan of 2h normally, I only used them for Carve and maximizing claw damage). Can I say that what I got out of werewolf was worth 30 skill points and half my attributes? No. I can say it was good enough that it was functional, powerful, and indeed I even relied on it in certain circumstances because it could just burn through certain fights in sheer dps races. Still not really worth 30 skill points and half my attributes (and my ultimate slot), though.

Ideally, WW would be worth its investment without much investment at all. If you put 2-3 skill points into it (literally just something like morphing the ult and getting bloodlust, or something), then you should still get 2-3 skill points worth of investment, considering what sorts of things those skill points could normally buy. Currently ww isn't worth that, and the current ult reduction isn't going to quite fix it. I'm expecting Zenimax will lower it again after they've moved out the 725 cost and fixed all the bugs. I think 300 would be ideal, because it'd be low enough that players without a huge investment in it could still get use out of it, and players who heavily invest in it would be able to use it all the time.

The question is what does Zenimax intend the werewolf to be? Is the balance supposed to be that ww should require steep investment to be good? Or should the balance be that ww should always be good and steep investment makes it amazing?

MasterLanz wrote: »

Yeah, that's what happens when all you do is shoot down people's posts....

The irony of that was so sweet I feel like I need to make a dentist appointment.

Anyway.

Travail wrote: »

And this brings up and interesting question. Should we have to "build around" the werewolf ultimate? Currently, every ultimate in the game is good regardless of your build; where you put your attribute points, etc. Their strengths come from the nature of the ability (some are better for AoE, some are better single-target, some are CC while others are pure damage, etc.)

The werewolf ultimate is the only ultimate that is utter garbage if you don't specifically build around it. The only builds I've seen who say the WW is any good at all are 49 stam with stam enchants, all medium armor for the reduced stam costs, using pre-buffs before transforming... etc., etc.,

The question is, should an attack labeled "ultimate" require this level of dedication just to make it usable (not even amazing, just "not worse than before I transformed")? Personally, I don't think so. Perhaps part of the redesign of the werewolf would be to make it powerful without requiring you build specifically to use it correctly.

That, or remove it as an ultimate and give it to use as a regular hotbar ability.Travail.

If you want your were to work in general, you have to make a build around it. Unlike vampire it most adds to your build instead of enhancing it - more or less as you pointed out. I'd slightly disagree with you in the sense of I think you should have to build around it in some fashion. Being a Vampire or Werewolf should be a tough choice that requires dedication. However, the balance to that (right now) is absurd. No matter how hard you look into building your werewolf it'll never be as good as the root class you started with. Period.

Vampires, will enhance you pretty much no matter what build you slap together.

Honestly, werewolf seems like it came as an after thought when they were stitching it together.

MasterLanz wrote: »

@Brittany_Joy‌

As far as I understand, the damage scaling is not based on your total stamina stat, it's based on your stamina attribute.

I don't think it does. The attack damage is derived from max stamina. The Savage Strength passive was intended to increase our max stamina and basically increase our damage but overcharge prevents it. Which is why I put no attribute points into stamina because the werewolf passives easily overcharge stamina.

MasterLanz wrote: »

It's easy to confirm. You said you get your stamina from enchants? Check your damage without stamina gear while in WW and see if it changes. If it doesn't change, then the gear isn't giving you damage.

The damage in werewolf form does scale with my stamina gear and buffs.

MasterLanz wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

MasterLanz wrote: »

It's easy to confirm. You said you get your stamina from enchants? Check your damage without stamina gear while in WW and see if it changes. If it doesn't change, then the gear isn't giving you damage.

The damage in werewolf form does scale with my stamina gear and buffs.

Not sure then. I've specced out of my werewolf build following the nibbling 'fix' so I can't get numbers for myself. All I can say for sure is that I had a stamina-heavy build and I found my damage output to be quite exceptional in WW form.

Well first of all I felt the sameway until I went over the DPS logs. A stamina build completely makes your class abilities do poopy DPS. So I went to a magicka build and only used buffs and enchants to increase stamina; I noticed I was able to one shot enemies with my class abilities and did tons more of DPS. While my werewolf form still did the same amount of DPS when I had the stamina build. Focusing a lil more on magicka made my character more powerful and outperform the werewolf in DPS.

So if your werewolf form is doing more damage than your normal form it is because your normal form is not optimized.

MasterLanz wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

So if your werewolf form is doing more damage than your normal form it is because your normal form is not optimized.

That's just it, though, I was outclassing other characters too. Watching DKs and Sorcs cause kill targets in x amount of time, then doing it faster as a werewolf. Of course, these are about more than just damage, too. Attack speed and cast time is a factor as well.

Are those players optimized as well? Comparing your DPS to another poorly optimized class is not a good way to prove werewolves are strong. You need to provide statistics and actual proof of this mythical, superior werewolf DPS.

MasterLanz wrote: »

I'll look into getting numbers after 1.1.

A lack of recorded evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen. The fact remains that some of us (werewolves) have been able to get good damage out of the feature. Not sure how you'd benchmark that, but I had no problem tearing through swathes of enemies, and never really felt outgunned by other players around me. I didn't perform clinical trials on my character because I never felt the need to. The biggest problem was just not being able to use ww when and where I wanted. If I could have stayed in WW form indefinitely, I would have (and did, which is why the recent fix has killed the interest for me).

However, I'm aware that's not terribly useful to other players other than to say "Yes, it's possible to get appreciable damage out of werewolf.". I'll return to the specifics when I have them.

The thing is I thought werewolves did great DPS too but after switching builds around I realized the werewolf damage can be outperformed. That is the thing I am trying to say, werewolves can not outperform any optimized build. In order to do well at being a werewolf you need to completely build your character around it. While if I just went with a magicka build I could still do tons of damage in my normal form and sometimes the werewolf form. But my normal, optimized form has proven to be able to outperform an optimized werewolf's capabilities.

MasterLanz wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

That is the thing I am trying to say, werewolves can not outperform any optimized build. In order to do well at being a werewolf you need to completely build your character around it.

That is highly circumstantial. You sound like your optimized for magic and DPS, which is probably the least likely build to benefit from being a werewolf.

Did you not read my full post? It is starting to seem like you just neglect the truth and obvious facts just because it is not your own opinion. I just finished saying I tried multiple builds and rearranged my attribute point distribution several times. The werewolf is not capable of this adequate DPS you are speaking of because the werewolf skill line is poorly designed and the damage from stamina does not scale well!

Stamina builds do not scale well which is why everyone is flocking to the magicka builds. You also fail to understand that the werewolf skill line has passives that increase your stamina by 20% and another possible 25%. Once you are overcharged in a stat it is useless to try to achieve more because of the diminishing returns. The werewolf damage does scale with max stamina given from other buffs/items and does not scale from attribute points alone.