What Exactly is Wrong with Werewolves?

Valaska

Another skill that would be GREAT would be a quick in battle devour that heals you and gives a little time into the timer! More HP than timer, but something that you can avoid dropping in mid combat.

Brittany_Joy

@MasterLanz, I did a few, quick tests in Cyrodiil that I would like to share. Here it is

Veteran Rank 3, Nightblade
Attributes are 30 magicka, 19 Health. Stamina is gained with enchants, food buff, and werewolf passives.

Action bar:
1-Reaper's Mark
2-Blinding Flurry
3-Ambush
4-Surprise Attack
5-Shadowy Disguise
Ultimate-Soul Harvest

Armor:
6 medium and 1 heavy
5/5 salvation set and 3/3 Akaviri Dragonguard set (The helmet and 2 swords)
Goal:
Complete Pothole Caverns in 5 minutes
One test has been taken without food buffs.
The second test has been taken with food buffs.

The first test
Nightblade with Soul Harvest completed the cave in 5 minutes.
DPS 360-684
Nightblade with werewolf transformation only completed 50% of the cave in 5 minutes.
DPS 224-253

The second test
Nightblade with Soul Harvest completed the cave in 5 minutes
DPS 587-1.8k
Nightblade with werewolf transformation only completed 80% of the cave in 5 minutes. Managed to complete the main room but not the full cave.
DPS 279-408

As you can see the werewolf transformation does not buff the character at all. Instead using the werewolf transformation actually makes your character weaker. Through out the test time was used up by maintaining the werewolf timer and transforming. The werewolf transformations usually lasted 5 seconds and so did devour. So werewolves won't be winning any speed runs.

I wish I was joking about the DPS meters but sadly the werewolf damage is dwarfed by what my own class abilities and ultimate can do. The damage done in werewolf form seems to be mediocre because of the lack of armor reduction abilities and being unable to perform stealth attacks.

Using the werewolf transformation not only downgrades your DPS but also your survivability. The werewolf form has no healing or damage reduction abilities. The devour passive can be used to heal but it can be easily interrupted by a single attack, I think it should require a bash to disrupt it.

You can perform tests of your own to try to prove my werewolf form is just inferior. I would like to see the results. If there is an optimal werewolf build then I would like to know. I am trying to make the best out of being a werewolf but the werewolf just has too many drawbacks preventing it from being viable.

Travail

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

You can perform tests of your own to try to prove my werewolf form is just inferior. I would like to see the results. If there is an optimal werewolf build then I would like to know. I am trying to make the best out of being a werewolf but the werewolf just has too many drawbacks preventing it from being viable.

And this brings up and interesting question. Should we have to "build around" the werewolf ultimate? Currently, every ultimate in the game is good regardless of your build; where you put your attribute points, etc. Their strengths come from the nature of the ability (some are better for AoE, some are better single-target, some are CC while others are pure damage, etc.)

The werewolf ultimate is the only ultimate that is utter garbage if you don't specifically build around it. The only builds I've seen who say the WW is any good at all are 49 stam with stam enchants, all medium armor for the reduced stam costs, using pre-buffs before transforming... etc., etc.,

The question is, should an attack labeled "ultimate" require this level of dedication just to make it usable (not even amazing, just "not worse than before I transformed")? Personally, I don't think so. Perhaps part of the redesign of the werewolf would be to make it powerful without requiring you build specifically to use it correctly.

That, or remove it as an ultimate and give it to use as a regular hotbar ability.

-Travail.

Brittany_Joy

Travail wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

You can perform tests of your own to try to prove my werewolf form is just inferior. I would like to see the results. If there is an optimal werewolf build then I would like to know. I am trying to make the best out of being a werewolf but the werewolf just has too many drawbacks preventing it from being viable.

And this brings up and interesting question. Should we have to "build around" the werewolf ultimate? Currently, every ultimate in the game is good regardless of your build; where you put your attribute points, etc. Their strengths come from the nature of the ability (some are better for AoE, some are better single-target, some are CC while others are pure damage, etc.)

The werewolf ultimate is the only ultimate that is utter garbage if you don't specifically build around it. The only builds I've seen who say the WW is any good at all are 49 stam with stam enchants, all medium armor for the reduced stam costs, using pre-buffs before transforming... etc., etc.,

The question is, should an attack labeled "ultimate" require this level of dedication just to make it usable (not even amazing, just "not worse than before I transformed")? Personally, I don't think so. Perhaps part of the redesign of the werewolf would be to make it powerful without requiring you build specifically to use it correctly.

That, or remove it as an ultimate and give it to use as a regular hotbar ability.

-Travail.

It really does suck that werewolves have to sacrifice armor type, armor bonuses, and skill points in order to be a slightly improved version of the mediocre werewolf.

But the werewolf passives basically make it so anyone can be a werewolf. The passives overcharge the stamina stat very easily. You still have to sacrifice armor type and armor bonuses for the salvation set and akaviri dragonguard set in order to actually use the werewolf transformation more quickly.

The problem with werewolves is deep in the design of the skill line. So a complete revamp is needed to actually make them viable, I hope ZoS does this.

MasterLanz

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

@MasterLanz, I did a few, quick tests in Cyrodiil that I would like to share. Here it is

Veteran Rank 3, Nightblade
Attributes are 30 magicka, 19 Health. Stamina is gained with enchants, food buff, and werewolf passives.

While I didn't record results, I did most of my leveling alongside other characters, and ran plenty of dungeons. I could measurably compare my DPS outside of werewolf to other characters around me and see my dps surpassing theirs while in ww.

However, my werewolf build did invest 50% attributes into stamina. I haven't tried WW without stamina, so I can't comment on what kind of DPS that has by contrast, but I can say that with stamina the dps is quite high.

It's possible that the damage scaling ww gets off stamina is exceptional contrast to normal scaling. That might just be the key to players' success/failure.

There is also the factor of weapon. As far as I noticed, your werewolf form still factors your weapons and armor. If you were wearing heavy armor when you shifted, you will have your heavy armor stats, including set bonuses, enchantments, etc. I never noticed any loss of stats or armor that could be attributed to 'de-equipping' my gear. Same applied to my weapons and I could even still gain ranks in them while in ww. So while you're visually beasting out, the math behind the curtains is still your normal character, just with some stamina/health/damage changes going on.

One thing that I did test was using my 1h+shield versus my 2h in werewolf form, and when I beasted out with my 2h bar active, I had higher damage and longer range, whereas in 1h+shield I had higher armor and lower damage (I didn't test if WW's could still shield bash and gain the benefits of deadly bash. I didn't have it at the time).

While I didn't get exact numbers, fighting with a 2h in werewolf form basically seemed to amount to attacking with a 2h weapon at the attack speed of dual weapons, except even more powerful after the ww damage scaling from stamina. I wish I had recount at the time so that I could get an exact difference, but based on the number of attacks it took to kill things, my attacks were more or less hitting for double damage from what they were in human form using a 2h, and the actual attacks were as fast if not faster than dual wield attacks.


Now, all that said, part of the problem with werewolf is one of investment. While I got good mileage out of my ww form prior to the recent fix, I also had something like 30 skill points and half my attribute points invested into optimizing werewolf in ways I otherwise wouldn't have used (not a fan of 2h normally, I only used them for Carve and maximizing claw damage). Can I say that what I got out of werewolf was worth 30 skill points and half my attributes? No. I can say it was good enough that it was functional, powerful, and indeed I even relied on it in certain circumstances because it could just burn through certain fights in sheer dps races. Still not really worth 30 skill points and half my attributes (and my ultimate slot), though.

Ideally, WW would be worth its investment without much investment at all. If you put 2-3 skill points into it (literally just something like morphing the ult and getting bloodlust, or something), then you should still get 2-3 skill points worth of investment, considering what sorts of things those skill points could normally buy. Currently ww isn't worth that, and the current ult reduction isn't going to quite fix it. I'm expecting Zenimax will lower it again after they've moved out the 725 cost and fixed all the bugs. I think 300 would be ideal, because it'd be low enough that players without a huge investment in it could still get use out of it, and players who heavily invest in it would be able to use it all the time.

The question is what does Zenimax intend the werewolf to be? Is the balance supposed to be that ww should require steep investment to be good? Or should the balance be that ww should always be good and steep investment makes it amazing?

Brittany_Joy

@MasterLanz, I did not put any attribute points into stamina because with food buffs and armor enchants my normal form has 1383 stamina. The werewolf transformation boosts it to 1695 stamina and I can overcharge the stat by getting 3 kills. Even after getting the 5 kill stamina buff of 25% I was still doing poopy DPS compared to my normal form. I was basically one shotting the enemies in my normal form while my werewolf form required a couple of hits to kill 'em.

I don't fool around in werewolf form either but no matter what I do I can not increase my DPS output. I usually use Rousing roar, pounce, heavy attacks followed by several quick light attacks. Usually my werewolf heavy attacks do around 470 damage. My heavy attacks with my two handed weapon or destruction staff could almost reach the same amount which is usually 440 damage. I used to think werewolves performed well in DPS but it seems like the statistics prove werewolves do not perform well at DPS. So werewolves are literally useless because they can't survive damage or deal an adequate amount of damage.

ScardyFox

MasterLanz wrote: »

Yeah, that's what happens when all you do is shoot down people's posts....

The irony of that was so sweet I feel like I need to make a dentist appointment.

Anyway.

Travail wrote: »

And this brings up and interesting question. Should we have to "build around" the werewolf ultimate? Currently, every ultimate in the game is good regardless of your build; where you put your attribute points, etc. Their strengths come from the nature of the ability (some are better for AoE, some are better single-target, some are CC while others are pure damage, etc.)

The werewolf ultimate is the only ultimate that is utter garbage if you don't specifically build around it. The only builds I've seen who say the WW is any good at all are 49 stam with stam enchants, all medium armor for the reduced stam costs, using pre-buffs before transforming... etc., etc.,

The question is, should an attack labeled "ultimate" require this level of dedication just to make it usable (not even amazing, just "not worse than before I transformed")? Personally, I don't think so. Perhaps part of the redesign of the werewolf would be to make it powerful without requiring you build specifically to use it correctly.

That, or remove it as an ultimate and give it to use as a regular hotbar ability.Travail.

If you want your were to work in general, you have to make a build around it. Unlike vampire it most adds to your build instead of enhancing it - more or less as you pointed out. I'd slightly disagree with you in the sense of I think you should have to build around it in some fashion. Being a Vampire or Werewolf should be a tough choice that requires dedication. However, the balance to that (right now) is absurd. No matter how hard you look into building your werewolf it'll never be as good as the root class you started with. Period.

Vampires, will enhance you pretty much no matter what build you slap together.

Honestly, werewolf seems like it came as an after thought when they were stitching it together.

MasterLanz

@Brittany_Joy‌

As far as I understand, the damage scaling is not based on your total stamina stat, it's based on your stamina attribute.

Brittany_Joy

MasterLanz wrote: »

@Brittany_Joy‌

As far as I understand, the damage scaling is not based on your total stamina stat, it's based on your stamina attribute.

I don't think it does. The attack damage is derived from max stamina. The Savage Strength passive was intended to increase our max stamina and basically increase our damage but overcharge prevents it. Which is why I put no attribute points into stamina because the werewolf passives easily overcharge stamina.

MasterLanz

It's easy to confirm. You said you get your stamina from enchants? Check your damage without stamina gear while in WW and see if it changes. If it doesn't change, then the gear isn't giving you damage.

Brittany_Joy

MasterLanz wrote: »

It's easy to confirm. You said you get your stamina from enchants? Check your damage without stamina gear while in WW and see if it changes. If it doesn't change, then the gear isn't giving you damage.

The damage in werewolf form does scale with my stamina gear and buffs.

MasterLanz

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

MasterLanz wrote: »

It's easy to confirm. You said you get your stamina from enchants? Check your damage without stamina gear while in WW and see if it changes. If it doesn't change, then the gear isn't giving you damage.

The damage in werewolf form does scale with my stamina gear and buffs.

Not sure then. I've specced out of my werewolf build following the nibbling 'fix' so I can't get numbers for myself. All I can say for sure is that I had a stamina-heavy build and I found my damage output to be quite exceptional in WW form.

Brittany_Joy

MasterLanz wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

MasterLanz wrote: »

It's easy to confirm. You said you get your stamina from enchants? Check your damage without stamina gear while in WW and see if it changes. If it doesn't change, then the gear isn't giving you damage.

The damage in werewolf form does scale with my stamina gear and buffs.

Not sure then. I've specced out of my werewolf build following the nibbling 'fix' so I can't get numbers for myself. All I can say for sure is that I had a stamina-heavy build and I found my damage output to be quite exceptional in WW form.

Well first of all I felt the sameway until I went over the DPS logs. A stamina build completely makes your class abilities do poopy DPS. So I went to a magicka build and only used buffs and enchants to increase stamina; I noticed I was able to one shot enemies with my class abilities and did tons more of DPS. While my werewolf form still did the same amount of DPS when I had the stamina build. Focusing a lil more on magicka made my character more powerful and outperform the werewolf in DPS.

So if your werewolf form is doing more damage than your normal form it is because your normal form is not optimized.

MasterLanz

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

So if your werewolf form is doing more damage than your normal form it is because your normal form is not optimized.

That's just it, though, I was outclassing other characters too. Watching DKs and Sorcs cause kill targets in x amount of time, then doing it faster as a werewolf. Of course, these are about more than just damage, too. Attack speed and cast time is a factor as well.

Brittany_Joy

MasterLanz wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

So if your werewolf form is doing more damage than your normal form it is because your normal form is not optimized.

That's just it, though, I was outclassing other characters too. Watching DKs and Sorcs cause kill targets in x amount of time, then doing it faster as a werewolf. Of course, these are about more than just damage, too. Attack speed and cast time is a factor as well.

Are those players optimized as well? Comparing your DPS to another poorly optimized class is not a good way to prove werewolves are strong. You need to provide statistics and actual proof of this mythical, superior werewolf DPS.

MasterLanz

I'll look into getting numbers after 1.1.

A lack of recorded evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen. The fact remains that some of us (werewolves) have been able to get good damage out of the feature. Not sure how you'd benchmark that, but I had no problem tearing through swathes of enemies, and never really felt outgunned by other players around me. I didn't perform clinical trials on my character because I never felt the need to. The biggest problem was just not being able to use ww when and where I wanted. If I could have stayed in WW form indefinitely, I would have (and did, which is why the recent fix has killed the interest for me).

However, I'm aware that's not terribly useful to other players other than to say "Yes, it's possible to get appreciable damage out of werewolf.". I'll return to the specifics when I have them.

Brittany_Joy

MasterLanz wrote: »

I'll look into getting numbers after 1.1.

A lack of recorded evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen. The fact remains that some of us (werewolves) have been able to get good damage out of the feature. Not sure how you'd benchmark that, but I had no problem tearing through swathes of enemies, and never really felt outgunned by other players around me. I didn't perform clinical trials on my character because I never felt the need to. The biggest problem was just not being able to use ww when and where I wanted. If I could have stayed in WW form indefinitely, I would have (and did, which is why the recent fix has killed the interest for me).

However, I'm aware that's not terribly useful to other players other than to say "Yes, it's possible to get appreciable damage out of werewolf.". I'll return to the specifics when I have them.

The thing is I thought werewolves did great DPS too but after switching builds around I realized the werewolf damage can be outperformed. That is the thing I am trying to say, werewolves can not outperform any optimized build. In order to do well at being a werewolf you need to completely build your character around it. While if I just went with a magicka build I could still do tons of damage in my normal form and sometimes the werewolf form. But my normal, optimized form has proven to be able to outperform an optimized werewolf's capabilities.

MasterLanz

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

That is the thing I am trying to say, werewolves can not outperform any optimized build. In order to do well at being a werewolf you need to completely build your character around it.

That is highly circumstantial. You sound like your optimized for magic and DPS, which is probably the least likely build to benefit from being a werewolf.

Brittany_Joy

MasterLanz wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

That is the thing I am trying to say, werewolves can not outperform any optimized build. In order to do well at being a werewolf you need to completely build your character around it.

That is highly circumstantial. You sound like your optimized for magic and DPS, which is probably the least likely build to benefit from being a werewolf.

Did you not read my full post? It is starting to seem like you just neglect the truth and obvious facts just because it is not your own opinion. I just finished saying I tried multiple builds and rearranged my attribute point distribution several times. The werewolf is not capable of this adequate DPS you are speaking of because the werewolf skill line is poorly designed and the damage from stamina does not scale well!

Stamina builds do not scale well which is why everyone is flocking to the magicka builds. You also fail to understand that the werewolf skill line has passives that increase your stamina by 20% and another possible 25%. Once you are overcharged in a stat it is useless to try to achieve more because of the diminishing returns. The werewolf damage does scale with max stamina given from other buffs/items and does not scale from attribute points alone.

MasterLanz

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

Did you not read my full post? It is starting to seem like you just neglect the truth and obvious facts just because it is not your own opinion.

What are you expecting? That I would just dismiss all my experience up to the point and assume it must have been my imagination just because you didn't get the same results? No, I disagree with them because they don't reflect my own experiences. Your results don't disprove my own results, so of course I'm still going to explore other ideas to try and find out why it's different.

No, I'm not going to just assume that every single player I've run into somehow has unoptimized builds and that blitzing through enemies and soloing bosses is somehow 'not optimized'. That's not consistent. That can't be accurate. There is something else going on in that scenario.

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

I just finished saying I tried multiple builds and rearranged my attribute point distribution several times. The werewolf is not capable of this adequate DPS you are speaking of because the werewolf skill line is poorly designed and the damage from stamina does not scale well!

I don't recall you detailing much about the builds, so that's not exactly telling me everything. You reported the numbers of a single build, and gave no details of what that builds was meant to accomplish or was designed around. If you tried a tank build, cool. Your results don't reflect that, though, so don't expect that I would just leap to that assumption.

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

Stamina builds do not scale well which is why everyone is flocking to the magicka builds. You also fail to understand that the werewolf skill line has passives that increase your stamina by 20% and another possible 25%. Once you are overcharged in a stat it is useless to try to achieve more because of the diminishing returns. The werewolf damage does scale with max stamina given from other buffs/items and does not scale from attribute points alone.

Actually, no, I'm fully aware of all that. However, I am also fully aware that overcharging a stat is not useless. I don't know how you even reached that conclusion. It's worth exactly what it's worth to the build. Just because you soft-cap something doesn't mean that investing elsewhere is going to improve your character necessarily.

Maybe I was just hyper-overcharged on stamina since I had full werewolf passives, stamina armor, and about 1/3 of my points invested in stamina? I won't know for sure until I try it again.

Edit: I hope you realize that I'm not just trying to argue for argument's sake. I'm just saying that I think there is more to this than what you've tested.