Is this a joke?

HatchetHaro · August 24

Valkanos wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[....]
I genuinely don't know where you got "selling carries" from; being carried does not necessitate payment.

Wanna give me a valid reason why you're so upset about the achievements I get on my build, whatever the build is, while playing solo?
I already understand what's happening here. You’ve made that very clear.

Why would I be upset about the achievements you don't have?

Valkanos · August 24

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[....]
I genuinely don't know where you got "selling carries" from; being carried does not necessitate payment.

Wanna give me a valid reason why you're so upset about the achievements I get on my build, whatever the build is, while playing solo?
I already understand what's happening here. You’ve made that very clear.

Why would I be upset about the achievements you don't have?

Maybe because you won't win any money from me to get the achievement I don't have!?....

HatchetHaro · August 24

Valkanos wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[....]
I genuinely don't know where you got "selling carries" from; being carried does not necessitate payment.

Wanna give me a valid reason why you're so upset about the achievements I get on my build, whatever the build is, while playing solo?
I already understand what's happening here. You’ve made that very clear.

Why would I be upset about the achievements you don't have?

Maybe because you won't win any money from me to get the achievement I don't have!?....

Why would you think I want your gold?

Valkanos · August 24

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[....]
I genuinely don't know where you got "selling carries" from; being carried does not necessitate payment.

Wanna give me a valid reason why you're so upset about the achievements I get on my build, whatever the build is, while playing solo?
I already understand what's happening here. You’ve made that very clear.

Why would I be upset about the achievements you don't have?

Maybe because you won't win any money from me to get the achievement I don't have!?....

Why would you think I want your gold?

Believe me... you won't get it.

Warhawke_80 · August 24

They already have:

Companions + group dungeons + solo content + the existing matchmaking system.

They're not starting from scratch.

They could essentially build:

Story Mode: 1–2 humans + companions, tuned for casual play.

Normal: Traditional 4-player dungeon.

Veteran: Traditional difficult 4-player dungeon.

That's a three-tier ecosystem where everybody gets what they want.

Casual players get the story.

Regular players get normal dungeons.

Hardcore players get Veteran/challenge content.

And nobody loses their existing game.....

Not doing that just doesn't make sense to me....unless this is being done to protect the Carry business.

YffresTrill · August 24

Per the PTS patch notes, the Misfortune has now been changed to reduce all damage you do by 30% instead.

Valkanos · August 24

YffresTrill wrote: »

Per the PTS patch notes, the Misfortune has now been changed to reduce all damage you do by 30% instead.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698518/pts-patch-notes-v12-1-3#latest

Solo March of Sacrifices
Per your feedback, we have adjusted the "Pulled Punches" Meted Misfortune as to not exclude those who play exclusively with Heavy Attack builds. "Pulled Punches" now reduces your damage done from all sources by 30%. Please let us know how this change feels!

Is 30% enough? I don't really care. Will they have the same right as every other player to use their build and play the content? Yes. So, thank you.
And please, ZOS... don't exclude your own players.

@HatchetHaro...... 0$

Undaunted Pledge Transmute Crystal Improvements
Undaunted pledges now award their Transmute Crystals directly, instead of in the form of a geode.
Maj's DLC pledges now grant significantly more Transmute Crystals:
[*] 5 for Normal
[*] 10 for Veteran
[*] 15 for Veteran Hard Mode

Finally. Thank you! Finally, Normal is Normal, Veteran is Veteran, and HM is Hard Mode. Thank you again!

Please close the topic. There’s no reason to keep the discussion about selling carries anymore.

katanagirl1 · 1:26AM

YffresTrill wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I thought the whole point of the solo dungeons was so the player could go at their own pace and enjoy the dungeon story.

I thought it was too, and I'm sure that is part of the motivation, but considering some of the design choices, that's obviously not all there is to it.

For one thing, they did not choose to start with dungeons which aren't already mechanically soloable. MHK and MoS already are both soloable. Then, instead of putting a normal/vet distinction like group dungeons, trials, and arenas have, they decided to add this strange Misfortunes mechanic.

On top of that, they have introduced a new currency that can be gained only from doing solo dungeons. So it's obvious that there is an additional motivation here, namely, creating grind.

I don’t keep up with the PTS because I am on console, but yeah…another case of getting something other than what people asked for. We’ll give players who just want to hear the story something, but tack on a bunch of sweaty stuff so they can feel bad if they aren’t able to do it. We already have sweaty achievements for these dungeons, why do they need more?

Yet another area in the game this season that I wish the development time and money had been spent elsewhere.

Vaqual · 1:51AM

katanagirl1 wrote: »

YffresTrill wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I thought the whole point of the solo dungeons was so the player could go at their own pace and enjoy the dungeon story.

I thought it was too, and I'm sure that is part of the motivation, but considering some of the design choices, that's obviously not all there is to it.

For one thing, they did not choose to start with dungeons which aren't already mechanically soloable. MHK and MoS already are both soloable. Then, instead of putting a normal/vet distinction like group dungeons, trials, and arenas have, they decided to add this strange Misfortunes mechanic.

On top of that, they have introduced a new currency that can be gained only from doing solo dungeons. So it's obvious that there is an additional motivation here, namely, creating grind.

I don’t keep up with the PTS because I am on console, but yeah…another case of getting something other than what people asked for. We’ll give players who just want to hear the story something, but tack on a bunch of sweaty stuff so they can feel bad if they aren’t able to do it. We already have sweaty achievements for these dungeons, why do they need more?

Yet another area in the game this season that I wish the development time and money had been spent elsewhere.

Maybe players who have their feelings hurt by the existence of optional challenges are not always the only concern. People who are looking for challenging gameplay are in fact often also living, breathing humans and they tend to also pay for the game. The Devs literally went out of their way, trying to make this appealing for as many players as possible. The entire system is mainly catering to players who were A.) unable to solo normal dungeons as they are, or B.) unable to find groups that allow them to experience the story according to their preferences. Sprinkling in a bit of enticement for a broader audience, to justify this development effort, is an absolutely reasonable move.
And what is the consequence? Players who haven't even come close to giving the optional challenge a shot, find said challenges unacceptable.

vMA was soloed spamming nothing but jabs years ago. I doubt that a "no LA/HA damage" challenge in a solo dungeon even qualifies as "sweaty". This is purely about egos and self-perception. Absolutely removed from the games reality. And I do not even find this challenge particularly good or interesting. But the reaction is just so predictable.

Arunei · 2:40AM

People getting unreasonably upset over others pointing out that an entire play-style and numerous Sets were locked out of the Pulled Punches MF, and accusing people bringing up those concerns as "You HAers" who "don't want to play anything else" as though they know exactly what kind of builds everyone plays.

People getting unreasonably upset over others wanting to use the Sets and builds they farmed for and worked on and not just be told "lol well screw your build and make another one who cares".

People getting unreasonably upset over the fact that "challenge" does NOT equal having entire Sets and play-styles being locked out of participation, it means being able to bring a build that might FACE CHALLENGES but is still USABLE.

At least the devs understand the last point and made it so people can still bring whatever build they like. And like, the people complaining the loudest were more than likely the ones who weren't even using LA/HA, it's like they just wanted a free MF at the cost of certain builds not being able to use it. Why be so vehement about something locking out other people being changed if it hardly impacts you for it to be changed to no longer lock those people out? It makes 0 sense to me.

Ordinator199 · 4:54AM

Valkanos wrote: »

YffresTrill wrote: »

Per the PTS patch notes, the Misfortune has now been changed to reduce all damage you do by 30% instead.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698518/pts-patch-notes-v12-1-3#latest
Solo March of Sacrifices
Per your feedback, we have adjusted the "Pulled Punches" Meted Misfortune as to not exclude those who play exclusively with Heavy Attack builds. "Pulled Punches" now reduces your damage done from all sources by 30%. Please let us know how this change feels!

Is 30% enough? I don't really care. Will they have the same right as every other player to use their build and play the content? Yes. So, thank you.
And please, ZOS... don't exclude your own players.

@HatchetHaro...... 0$

Undaunted Pledge Transmute Crystal Improvements
Undaunted pledges now award their Transmute Crystals directly, instead of in the form of a geode.
Maj's DLC pledges now grant significantly more Transmute Crystals:
[*] 5 for Normal
[*] 10 for Veteran
[*] 15 for Veteran Hard Mode

Finally. Thank you! Finally, Normal is Normal, Veteran is Veteran, and HM is Hard Mode. Thank you again!

Please close the topic. There’s no reason to keep the discussion about selling carries anymore.

Undaunted Pledge Transmute Crystal Improvements are actually really good change, the stupid boxes always gave me minimum despite saying 2-10 always got 2, incentivizes and breathes life back into actually doing pledges even if you got everything from the dungeon.

thorwyn · 5:09AM

People getting unreasonably upset over others wanting to use the Sets and builds they farmed for and worked on and not just be told "lol well screw your build and make another one who cares".

Interesting...
When U35 went live and anihilated a good chunk of the raid scene, it was people like you who blessed the forum with recommendatons like "lol well screw your build and make another one who cares" and "learn to adapt".

warsulxan · 9:23AM

you know what. I dont think HA easy than arcanist

Taarente · 9:34AM

SilverBride wrote: »

I thought the whole point of the solo dungeons was so the player could go at their own pace and enjoy the dungeon story.

I did too, frankly I don’t care about yet another half assed zos idea. All they had to do was alter, remove or hide the mechanics that needed a group. Dont need more useless rewards that will go in the woodchipper anyway. Zos just can’t stop turning everything into a game show.

YffresTrill · 9:42AM

Taarente wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I thought the whole point of the solo dungeons was so the player could go at their own pace and enjoy the dungeon story.

I did too, frankly I don’t care about yet another half assed zos idea. All they had to do was alter, remove or hide the mechanics that needed a group. Dont need more useless rewards that will go in the woodchipper anyway. Zos just can’t stop turning everything into a game show.

Agreed. They wasted so much time on developing these two solo dungeons (that could already be soloed) so they could add all this nonsense to it. In that time they could have created solo versions of far more dungeons, and ones which actually needed that. But it seems they just cannot put anything new into the game without turning it into some sort of grind.

spartaxoxo · 10:09AM

YffresTrill wrote: »

Per the PTS patch notes, the Misfortune has now been changed to reduce all damage you do by 30% instead.

That's much more fair than "delete only a handful sets and don't challenge someone else at all," style modifier they had before. This one is actually worthy of the title unlike that old one.

Also the idea in this thread of Oh just don't use Relenquen or heavy attack builds, use Velothi Arcanist Beam and have essentially no meaningful modifier at all. That's the real challenge! (ETA2: And no nobody used these exact words but it's the essence of what is being argued because those are the builds that no longer worked in particular and Velothi Beam Builds would be the meta for that modifier since it is mostly not impacted by it).

Well, that's definitely not how I perceive the game. I usually see people argue that the other way around. But, to each their own. Glad they changed it to something that gives a challenge to all builds rather than invalidating some while having no meaningful change at all to others personally though.

YffresTrill · 10:11AM

spartaxoxo wrote: »

YffresTrill wrote: »

Per the PTS patch notes, the Misfortune has now been changed to reduce all damage you do by 30% instead.

That's much more fair than "delete only a handful sets and don't challenge someone else at all," style game design they had before.

Oh, absolutely. A good change and a pleasant surprise. It now feels in line with the design of the other debuffs, which are all generic and do not target specific builds.

oddarin · 11:12AM

So much fuss about ~additional~ ~optional~ switcher for hardcore players and achievement hunters... Noone in the Earth forces nobody to play with it and still someone feels somehow offended. Classic.

YffresTrill · 11:17AM

oddarin wrote: »

So much fuss about ~additional~ ~optional~ switcher for hardcore players and achievement hunters... Noone in the Earth forces nobody to play with it and still someone feels somehow offended. Classic.

Can you please keep the insults to yourself? Not everyone who disliked this was unable to play with it. I tested it on the PTS and disliked it so I left negative feedback. Others did the same. It has now been changed to be more inclusive.

spartaxoxo · 11:24AM

oddarin wrote: »

So much fuss about ~additional~ ~optional~ switcher for hardcore players and achievement hunters... Noone in the Earth forces nobody to play with it and still someone feels somehow offended. Classic.

It's a video game. Nobody is forced to play it or anything in it. But, it might as well be a good experience for as many players as they can. Which is why they collect feedback for it. Which is the entire reason that forums exist. Presumably, anyone who has created an account to post on the forums has done so for the purpose of providing feedback.

oddarin · 12:10PM

As solo-player should I be offended by existence of trifectas? As PvE-player should I be offended that I'll never get Emperor title? No? Why? It is just the same - content that is not suitable for my playstyle and from which I'll hardly ever get any achievement/titles/bonuses (unless I'll reconsider my casual experience). Everyone sees that that statement is ridiculous and if I voice it on this forum everyone will rightly tell me that. Then how is it different from the current discussion?

YffresTrill · 12:21PM

oddarin wrote: »

As solo-player should I be offended by existence of trifectas? As PvE-player should I be offended that I'll never get Emperor title? No? Why? It is just the same - content that is not suitable for my playstyle and from which I'll hardly ever get any achievement/titles/bonuses (unless I'll reconsider my casual experience). Everyone sees that that statement is ridiculous and if I voice it on this forum everyone will rightly tell me that. Then how is it different from the current discussion?

It is not the same. I can only speak for my own quarrel with the original design of this Misfortune (which has now been changed) but the problem was not that it was difficult or that certain players would not be able to complete it, but that it disallowed use of certain sets and abilities entirely. That is a design flaw. It is not the same as certain skills and sets being bad at a certain thing, like in trials and such, but that they just didn't work at all. That only limits player choice unnecessarily. I think the distinction is pretty clear.

To clarify further, I do not have a problem with difficult solo dungeons. I would not even have a problem with them if I couldn't do them. I was arguing against a design flaw. Anyway, I think I've made my point many times over, so I will now bow out of this discussion.

oddarin · 12:54PM

YffresTrill wrote: »

the problem was not that it was difficult or that certain players would not be able to complete it, but that it disallowed use of certain sets and abilities entirely. That is a design flaw.

No one argues with that. If the discussion in the first place had been about that design disables set effects, I suppose almost everyone would have agreed - yes, it looks like unaccounted flaw (because if they'd wanted to make a MF with "disable set effects" status, they should put it clearly). However, the initial discussion was about "it's not suitable for HA builds" followed by "they're preventing me from playing the way I want" - that is quite close to "I can't be succesfull in PvP with PvE build I love so much. Why?"

Valkanos · 1:00PM

oddarin wrote: »

So much fuss about ~additional~ ~optional~ switcher for hardcore players and achievement hunters... Noone in the Earth forces nobody to play with it and still someone feels somehow offended. Classic.

Problem was solved, thank you, ZoS.

But yet, here you are, and you seem very comfortable with "forcing" players to change their builds. Nobody is forcing us to play it, sure, but if we want to play it, we’re forced to change our builds. So where exactly is the limit of your ‘forces nobody’ argument?”

spartaxoxo · 1:04PM

oddarin wrote: »

As solo-player should I be offended by existence of trifectas? As PvE-player should I be offended that I'll never get Emperor title? No? Why? It is just the same - content that is not suitable for my playstyle and from which I'll hardly ever get any achievement/titles/bonuses (unless I'll reconsider my casual experience). Everyone sees that that statement is ridiculous and if I voice it on this forum everyone will rightly tell me that. Then how is it different from the current discussion?

"30% damage from all sources," makes fights more difficult for everyone.

"This boss does a one shot unless you perform a specific mechanic quick," makes fights more difficult for everyone.

"no light or heavy attack builds," is screw light attack proc sets and Heavy Attack builds in particular. Your builds are completely disabled. Velothi is cool though.

This was not trifectas are harder with a heavy attack builds. This was the build is disabled entirely. And so were any armor sets that relied on a light attack to proc the damage, like Relenquen.

One of these things is not like the others.

AzuraFan · 3:14PM

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I don’t keep up with the PTS because I am on console, but yeah…another case of getting something other than what people asked for. We’ll give players who just want to hear the story something, but tack on a bunch of sweaty stuff so they can feel bad if they aren’t able to do it. We already have sweaty achievements for these dungeons, why do they need more?

Yet another area in the game this season that I wish the development time and money had been spent elsewhere.

Agreed. Yet another feature that was supposed to be for the solo/story/exploration/more casual crowd, but now has added difficulty levels for the sweaties. Apparently the 50+ group dungeons, arenas, overland difficulty levels, and the IA aren't enough for them. So yeah, another feature that I was excited about that I won't be able to complete (can't complete all the achievements). All the cool rewards go to the sweaties.

I'm actually not surprised. The game has been trending towards combat, combat, combat and builds, build, builds for a couple of years now. Content for that is cheaper to produce. No voice acting, no writing, etc. But it means that those of us who came here for the Elder Scrolls stories, exploration, etc. have less and less to look forward to.

Given how it turned out, I also wish they'd spent the development time elsewhere.

YffresTrill wrote: »

Agreed. They wasted so much time on developing these two solo dungeons (that could already be soloed) so they could add all this nonsense to it. In that time they could have created solo versions of far more dungeons, and ones which actually needed that. But it seems they just cannot put anything new into the game without turning it into some sort of grind.

I'd wager that most of the playerbase can't solo the two dungeons. I certainly can't. And that was supposed to be the point of these dungeons - to give players like me a chance to go through them at our own pace, explore, read the books, etc. Now it's been turned into yet another difficulty challenge, where those of us who aren't good enough or just want to have fun, will be locked out of the cool rewards. There was even someone asking on PTS to add leaderboards. ZOS is so clueless at this point that it won't surprise me if they go ahead and do it.

Oh well, the bottom line is that the game will continue to cater to combat and build-focused players. Those of us who aren't into that will find less and less to keep us here.

Reginald_leBlem · 3:30PM

Valkanos wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

How in the hell do some players even find a reason for ZoS to completely kill off and exclude certain players from the game?

I will respect all your opinions, but to me, this makes absolutely no sense. ZOS should be the first ones trying to include all players in their content, not push them out. Players already do enough of that themselves.
No. I will never understand it.

You expect rewards without effort. Once you break out of that mindset, you'll understand it.
And as for respecting opinions, well, let's just say you've given me reason not to believe you.

What I don't really expect anymore is to play Elder Scrolls Online as an actual Elder Scrolls experience. And that's the only thing I'm 100% sure about anymore.

And btw, why do you believe I don't have other builds? Just because I'm defending HA players? Yeah, I'll always do that. Whatever other players only care about is selling carries.

I think you misconstrued "getting carried" (derogatory) as "buying a carry" (paid), which is different. The comment about not getting Mind Mender on a HA build unless carried was using the carried (derogatory) connotation. Ie, heavy attack enthusiasts already don't have access to a wide variety of achievements unless other players do all the work. That's not necessarily a stance I agree with but it is my interpretation of the conversation.

I can't imagine the demand for 3 misfortune solo dungeon carries (paid) would be enough to make the effort/risk even remotely worth it to sell.

Valkanos · 3:52PM

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

[...] heavy attack enthusiasts already don't have access to a wide variety of achievements unless other players do all the work. [...]

Oh, thank you for reminding me. I almost forgot that HA players are allowed to play the game, as long as they don't get too ambitious with those nasty achievements they get for actually playing the game. How generous!

YffresTrill · 4:03PM

AzuraFan wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I don’t keep up with the PTS because I am on console, but yeah…another case of getting something other than what people asked for. We’ll give players who just want to hear the story something, but tack on a bunch of sweaty stuff so they can feel bad if they aren’t able to do it. We already have sweaty achievements for these dungeons, why do they need more?

Yet another area in the game this season that I wish the development time and money had been spent elsewhere.

Agreed. Yet another feature that was supposed to be for the solo/story/exploration/more casual crowd, but now has added difficulty levels for the sweaties. Apparently the 50+ group dungeons, arenas, overland difficulty levels, and the IA aren't enough for them. So yeah, another feature that I was excited about that I won't be able to complete (can't complete all the achievements), and that will offer me overland gear. Woohoo! All the cool rewards go to the sweaties.

I'm actually not surprised. The game has been trending towards combat, combat, combat and builds, build, builds for a couple of years now. Content for that is cheaper to produce. No voice acting, no writing, etc. But it means that those of us who came here for the Elder Scrolls stories, exploration, etc. have less and less to look forward to.

Given how it turned out, I also wish they'd spent the development time elsewhere.

YffresTrill wrote: »

Agreed. They wasted so much time on developing these two solo dungeons (that could already be soloed) so they could add all this nonsense to it. In that time they could have created solo versions of far more dungeons, and ones which actually needed that. But it seems they just cannot put anything new into the game without turning it into some sort of grind.

I'd wager that most of the playerbase can't solo the two dungeons. I certainly can't. And that was supposed to be the point of these dungeons - to give players like me a chance to go through them at our own pace, explore, read the books, etc. Now it's been turned into yet another difficulty challenge, where those of us who aren't good enough or just want to have fun, will be locked out of the cool rewards. There was even someone asking on PTS to add leaderboards. ZOS is so clueless at this point that it won't surprise me if they go ahead and do it.

Oh well, the bottom line is that the game will continue to cater to combat and build-focused players. Those of us who aren't into that will find less and less to keep us here.

If you wanted these dungeons to do for the story without rushing because you cannot solo the group versions on live, you absolutely will be able to do this. You would just choose not to take any Misfortunes.

I agree that this means you will not be able to get all the achievements and possibly some cosmetics (I am not sure what all the rewards are because I don't care about them) but you cannot get those things from any sweaty content anyway if you are not doing any of that, so that is of course to be expected.

With regards to most people not being able to solo these on live, I cannot comment on that, though you might be right. Either way, it would have made more sense to start with ones that no one can solo on live (or no one can solo on live without using some sort of cheesing mechanic like streaking across a gap, breaking CC with Precognition, or standing in a particular spot to avoid an attack) as this would have been helpful to a larger group of players than starting with dungeons that many people can already solo.

I do agree that this was not the right direction to take this. I am someone whose favourite activities in the game are solo questing/roleplay and difficult solo content, so this would seem to be aimed at me, but I would have preferred the solo dungeons to be story-focused only. Because people have been asking for them for so long and trying to do the story in a group is like pulling teeth. And because if they didn't waste time adding all this extra stuff, they could be pumping the solo versions out much faster.

AzuraFan · 4:22PM

YffresTrill wrote: »

I agree that this means you will not be able to get all the achievements and possibly some cosmetics (I am not sure what all the rewards are because I don't care about them) but you cannot get those things from any sweaty content anyway if you are not doing any of that, so that is of course to be expected.

Yes, but this content was originally intended for the story/casual crowd. And why is it that the story/casual crowd can never get all the achievements for something? And like I said in my post, there's already tons of content for sweaties (including trials, which I forgot to list). To add insult to injury, the rewards for doing it on story challenge are crap. Anyway, not your fault.
[ETA: Rewards were recently updated so that the solo dungeons drop the usual dungeon sets! - but story is still locked out of achievements and and some cosmetics and such. Can't let those pesky casuals complete anything!]

I do agree that this was not the right direction to take this. I am someone whose favourite activities in the game are solo questing/roleplay and difficult solo content, so this would seem to be aimed at me, but I would have preferred the solo dungeons to be story-focused only. Because people have been asking for them for so long and trying to do the story in a group is like pulling teeth. And because if they didn't waste time adding all this extra stuff, they could be pumping the solo versions out much faster.

Totally agree. The solo dungeons were supposed to solve the problem of people not being able to do stuff at their own pace with pugs. They turned it into yet another combat challenge, like everything else in this game now. And yeah, by overcomplicating it, the other dungeons will take longer to do, if they're done at all.