Wuuffyy wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Nutley99 wrote: »

Revert the Goliath bash rework.

Realistically, very few people use it. Those who do use it are the people who care about maximising DPS and are looking to do score runs or other very high level content. The people who do not use it are not trying to do this. They are missing out on absolutely nothing by not using the double bash. Their experience will not be improved by the new change. They do not massively care that their DPS will be increased. I am not sure that many of this group of player would bash weave after the change anyway.

The people who will care are those who currently use double bash. These are people who will lose DPS (something they care about more than others care about getting an increase in DPS). They will lose complexity in parsing (an enjoyable element of the game for this group of player). The most unique class and ultimate in the game will lose a large aspect of what makes it unique.

Why are ZOS intent on lowering the skill ceiling for an aspect of the game that no player is required to achieve?

TLDR: Good parsers should have more tools available to demonstrate their skill. No one is negatively affected by the current state of double bash goliath.

The 20 people who were good at bash cro need to be punished for being at the top of all logs of course. We'll just ignore the insane amount of practice and cpm it took for them to get there.

I mean, at least they can still bash weave. My werewolf has a singular bar and here I thought bash weaving was a rare form of ‘skill expression’ but I don’t see a way I can have the sustain to do that in PvP while ripping points out of stam to place into health to handle the constant healing nerfs along with general health-based healing instead of ‘normal healing’.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Nutley99 wrote: »

Revert the Goliath bash rework.

Realistically, very few people use it. Those who do use it are the people who care about maximising DPS and are looking to do score runs or other very high level content. The people who do not use it are not trying to do this. They are missing out on absolutely nothing by not using the double bash. Their experience will not be improved by the new change. They do not massively care that their DPS will be increased. I am not sure that many of this group of player would bash weave after the change anyway.

The people who will care are those who currently use double bash. These are people who will lose DPS (something they care about more than others care about getting an increase in DPS). They will lose complexity in parsing (an enjoyable element of the game for this group of player). The most unique class and ultimate in the game will lose a large aspect of what makes it unique.

Why are ZOS intent on lowering the skill ceiling for an aspect of the game that no player is required to achieve?

TLDR: Good parsers should have more tools available to demonstrate their skill. No one is negatively affected by the current state of double bash goliath.

The 20 people who were good at bash cro need to be punished for being at the top of all logs of course. We'll just ignore the insane amount of practice and cpm it took for them to get there.

I mean, at least they can still bash weave. My werewolf has a singular bar and here I thought bash weaving was a rare form of ‘skill expression’ but I don’t see a way I can have the sustain to do that in PvP while ripping points out of stam to place into health to handle the constant healing nerfs along with general health-based healing instead of ‘normal healing’.

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

WW will be nerfed to oblivion, looks like ZOS will only hear who cry louder for nerfsm be prepared to build 100% sustain on your WW next patch

I'm just talking about PVE and the unneeded nerf to PVE sorcs/sorc WWs when Static Reverb could have just been made to proc only on monsters. The sustain nerfs were kinda needed.

Luneca wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I want to say that I'm pretty disappointed PVE werewolf Sorcerer DPS has to be neutered because of PVP ones, even though I understand wholeheartedly why those changes were needed. The changes to Conservation of Energy makes sense, though gutting Static Reverberation like that to only Sorcerer skills very much kills the viability of Sorcerer Werewolf DPS in PVE. I do have a couple suggestions to either prevent the gutting or alleviate the loss of Static Reverberation for WW in PVE:

1: Revert the Static Reverberation changes to what it already is, but make it so it only procs on monsters rather than any target. This would simply prevent it from being to OP in PVP against players, but also address some issues of a player's Static Reverberation striking ally players in trials like Lucent Citadel. (I don't what exact mechanic that is, but it certainly would keep Static Reverb from hitting players if it's coded to only hit monsters.)

2: If the changes to Static Reverberation are set in stone, then buff Calculated Defense to also give Major Slayer, as well as buffing the group Weapon+Spell Damage bonus to 10%.

Current Calculated Defense class mastery:

While beginning to use a Sorcerer ability or an ability with a cast time, you gain a damage shield for 0.5 seconds that can absorb XXXX damage. This effect is based off your Max Health. If the shield does not break, you and nearby group members gain 6% Weapon and Spell Damage for 20 seconds.

Changed Calculated Defense class mastery:

While beginning to use a Sorcerer ability or an ability with a cast time, you gain a damage shield for 0.3 seconds that can absorb XXXX damage. This effect is based off your Max Health. If the shield does not break, you and nearby group members gain 6-10% Weapon and Spell Damage and Major Slayer for 20 seconds.

This change would benefit Werewolf Sorcerer, either tank or DPS, as Ferocious/Deafening Roar have a small cast time and could be brought into trial groups for that extra utility in bringing Major Slayer. It also allows for sorcerer healers and tanks to be of more value to trial groups and PVE groups in general as well.
Also!! It would alleviate a healer in these trial groups from having to wear the old RoJo set up and have more diversity in their builds as well.

Either suggestions keeps Static Reverberation from being its OP self in PVP while still allowing Werewolf Sorcerer DPS in PVE to be relatively decent. The second change would also give more build variety to PVE healers, as well as give Sorcerer WW DPS/tank and sorcerer healers/tanks more relevance in PVE as well.

WW will be nerfed to oblivion, looks like ZOS will only hear who cry louder for nerfsm be prepared to build 100% sustain on your WW next patch

Imagine it being a tragedy that you can't have it all anymore without having to play with the least amount of skill needed to heavy attack. WWs on live don't even need to heavy attack and can out heal nearly everyone, push out extreme damage, sustain forever, and realistically never get one shot or actually pushed down if they are "good" at WW.

And this is not something that comes from skill, but a direct result of changes made to the "WW class" ZOS did in recent patches. So that isnt' a problem, but when ZOS decides to make changes in the opposite direction it is?

Ridiculous mindset, but this is ESO.

What class actually uses Heavy Attack to sustain in PvP? I haven’t seen such nonsense in a long time. Nuking a class is very different from balancing. ZOS themselves said that reduced costs were introduced so magicka builds wouldn’t be excluded from the playstyle—and now they’re the ones most affected. No surprise there. At this point, you might as well go fire siege, since that seems to be something you understand, unlike werewolf.

But it's not nuked. You just said you'd have to build sustain. What is "nuked" is your ability to have the current level of power on live. Thanks for playing.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

How does it do well in this environment as the 'sustained pressure playstyle' when DK and sorc maintain practically-infinite sustain still? Keep in mind, them KEEPING CoF and CoE at such high levels likely means 'near-infinite' sustain for each rework... just not wolf (the one playstyle that arguably needs high sustain for 'pressure'.)

I fully believe that Core of Flame is still too powerful. That description of DK needing resources to continue suggests that DK absolutely should have sustain issues that they solve from ultimates (The Storm Voice passive), so having too much sustain available from Core of Flame does break that exact description they were working towards.

Panderbander wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom I think it's safe to say that the nerfs to CoE and Reverb will safely reduce the power of werewolf alone without the need to triple the cost of abilities effectively across the board. A second look at the cost of werewolf abilities absent this sustain that was provided by the sorcerer mastery (which lead to the glut of "unkillable" werewolves) should show that it was this that was the problem and not werewolf itself. I would personally suggest just making this change and reverting the nerf to sustain for werewolves that was put in place in week 1 and follow up to see where things are now after this change.

It is worth noting that this sustain change *does* severely disadvantage any werewolf that is neither a stamina build nor a sorcerer, particularly without the extra stamina pool to make up for it (as was the case before).

Additionally, the note about werewolves being "excellent burst fighters" is laughably false. Werewolf does not have "burst" (even during rampage, this is just slightly higher sustained damage for a short period) in any recognizable form. A constant flow of middle-high damage is the only way a werewolf can kill in pvp, the kit is entirely incapable of taking advantage of a CC window to drop another player before a break free or the CC naturally wears off. This is literally the only class that is unable to burst.

• Shield Throw: does not allow Bleed, Disease, Flame, Poison, or Shock damage
• Smash: does not allow Disease damage or any magical damage (but it does allow Magic?)
• Travelling Knife: does not allow Disease, Flame, or Shock
• Vault: does not allow Frost, Magic or Shock
• Trample: does not allow Bleed, Flame, Poison, or Shock
• Torchbearer: does not allow Disease, Magic, Poison, or Shock
• Soul Burst and Wield Soul: does not allow Poison

acanca wrote: »

Pummeling Goliath Bash

A 1 second cool down means imperfect weaving is very punishing because you have to choose between losing even more time by waiting for the bash to become available again or skip the bash entirely for that GCD window.

Please consider making the Pummeling Goliath Bash cooldown 0.8 seconds as a cushion so that imperfect weaving isn't as punishing. As far as i can tell, this would act same as a 1 second cooldown but allow players some leeway for imperfect execution.

acanca wrote: »

Werewolf Cost Changes

The cost changes for werewolf at the start of the Pts cycle are now too brutal when paired with the nerf to Conservation of Energy and will most likely cause werewolf from being played for solo players and for pvp.

It takes 30 seconds for a build with Conservation of Energy copied from live to run out of stamina (without ever blocking or dodging or sprinting or breaking free) and it takes around 18 seconds for the same build without Conservation of Energy.





The build has no problem with sustain whatsoever on live and while i agree that werewolf sustain was too easy and needed some adjustments, the main culprit of that issue was Conservation of Energy. Which also got toned down recently.

In essence, werewolf cost changes are too brutal and i would not like to see what i think of as the single best reworked line made by the team disappear from seeing play.
Roar and its morphs are in my opinion the most punishing to use and should be made cheaper but all skills could use seeing some of the cost increase reduced. The stamina costs were basically tripled, readjusting the costs to around double the original might be more reasonable.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin * @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (please pass through to combat team) - I don't know what else I can do or say to prove that you are making a mistake. I provide what I can, where I can aimlessly trying to pass the grander point along.

Everytime werewolf 'dies', it is when the sustain is adjusted too heavily or the healing is adjusted too heavily. When you remove damage options like static reverb and leave CoE, you aren't encouraging 'a way out', you're relegating werewolves to yet another subpar option that still lacks the damage with sustain of traditional options like Shapeshifter's chain + Imperial (or in a sense like Oakensoul before). The adjustments to CoE were appropriate, encouraging a choice IS the right path, however the sustain changes are now overkill.

I have attempted to build in a variety of ways where my damage is 'sufficient', which must be consistent and high to outpace rampant healing and sustain (especially CoE mastery Sorc users and CoF skill Dragonknight users), I maintain a certain level of health 35k+, and maintain a certain level of sustain (even if it requires dedicating my race, mythic, and even food) to do so.

In every test I had, Smoked Bear Haunch in ESO and Artaeum Takeaway Broth (shown earlier in this thread via CMX) while seemingly a valid option caused me to lose far too many resources in stam and/or mag to the point that having 2k+ stamina recovery was still a detriment that caused me to burn out within around 15 seconds with essentially no break frees, no rolls, and no blocks (meaning in combat, just like demonstrated before also- I would likely 'burn out' within 4-5 seconds at most).

Building 5 med (22k resistance being nearly unviable in actual content i.e. 'glass cannon' for cost reduction), health where possible for healing, running Shapeshifter's Chain (unique resources and 15% cost reduction), Imperial (Highest Health and Stamina combo with 6% reduction)- I was able to last no more than 20 seconds EVEN with the break free CP (which would not be active in NO-CP BGs) and minimizing rolls (which some snares, immobilizes, and certain skills would force out) before bottoming-out stamina in a very dangerous way:









For an added benefit, with the same reduction gear (which would be abnormal for a mag build), and after stacking 35k+ mag (which caused my health to fall below 30k), I would still burn out within seconds in a dangerous way however only this time it didn't stabilize:





Meanwhile, post nerf-courtesy of our own @Arcana - this is DK on PTS blocking over 100 attacks (holding block) maintaining resource stability the entire time on what is arguably a combination pressure and burst class:



There are many on these forums that will debate this topic in logical fallacies, provide no evidence to back otherwise baseless claims, and are likely here to overwhelm and 'drown out' counter-arguments, however valid-

I know at the end of the day I'm "just a werewolf player" but I implore the team to see the data and logical reasoning along with the promises made by the members who worked so hard to revitalize werewolf in a big way. I have no doubt this PTS patch will make it to live as-is now for werewolf. I ask that over the next 3 months you investigate and determine better solutions for this 'pressure, no burst, low sustain' playstyle you've created and try to understand the changes that made it objectively unviable in the first place.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

This was a response to a video I was sent but I think it somewhat helps understandably differentiate ‘paper’ from ‘actual gameplay’ especially on PTS albeit using testimony and basic logic to ascertain the point:

‘If werewolf objectively didn’t work before the rework, and it already cannot kill certain players and grouped players with a healer on live-

How does ‘building sustain’ and trading MORE damage help it when it already lost damage from the rework, defiles, dot uptimes, and on-demand healing by a significant portion through Fortitude + an incredibly strict requirement to build high health (whereas before, for example, I could build 30k health and my burst heal was finite but very decent still)?

Building sustain is the only answer I hear but if the answer to every problem was ‘building sustain’, people wouldn’t stop at a singular sustain set (especially werewolf that is requiring significantly more HP for on-demand healing compared to U49). You have to retain damage and the less you have on werewolf especially, the less likely you are to be effective. People seem to love to discredit the fact that werewolf does not, in fact, have burst I.E. you cannot build sustain+defense and pocket an Onslaught into a whip… so if your consistent DPS is not higher than HPS of an opponent properly reacting- you just don’t kill no matter how good you are at your rotation.

Rampage is also not an answer as despite building at a decent rate in a duel, most actual PvP scenarios especially when in a 1 v 2, 1 v 3 situation (let’s say BGS) see you kiting, moving around, and generally not staying on target 24/7. I’d say actual Rampage Fury Gen is around half to maybe 2/3 on average in actual play versus what’s expected in a duel.

Beyond that, the Mylene set is horrendous-

the damage in PvP is horrid, the sustain return even against IC adds (it's damage-based) is horrid, and the fury gen (25/1000 once every 10 seconds) is a joke and a half on its own’

~~~

This is all made worse as wolf was the only one nuked so very hard in sustain whereas:

DK’s CoF provides 2.7k main resource ‘recov’ with just 23k ‘missing’

Sorc’s CoE provides 1.5k ‘mag recov’ for 50k mag along with the damage increase from Font of Power.

It’s going to be pretty difficult when wolf is the only reworked class thusfar without ‘infinite sustain’ outside of Ramapge which you need to be in extended combat for (haha, you see the conundrum here?). How is one meant to reasonable ‘pressure’ any remotely competent player on DK (tons of heals all around), and sorc (shielding and streak) with near-‘infinite’ sustain?

Again, ‘good players’ will make it work but a lot of the heavy lifting will now come from the HPS more-so than anything else. Certain ‘duel builds’ will likely still work to a degree but in actual combat scenarios, wolf is very likely to suffer greatly on average.

*edited for more clarity

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Sorcerer had coe and blood magic nuked by 25% and 40% respectively, these are obscene numbers, balancing isn’t done by axe swings. On top he class has been indirectly nerfed further by ele sus cost and draugrkin being butchered.
Since coe and blood magic nerfs were mostly directed at werewolfs and they got costs increased too, could the values be changed a bit to something less drastic?

These values were and are still far too high and honestly need further adjustments unrelated to werewolf.

1,500 mag 'recov' (50k mag pool) and 600-700 off 'recov' (20k stam pool) is still far too much from a singular passive. CoE and CoF especially need further adjustments to bring them in line with other classes in the game.

For that matter (again), CoF remaining at 2,700 'recov' on primary resource alone when missing 23k resources (23,000 x 0.12= 2700 per tick instantly and then every 2 seconds) is still too much on a singular active skill.

Earlier in these threads is further CMX data from another individual reinforcing the point on CoF especially.