Wuuffyy wrote: »

HunterDawn wrote: »

Here are the damage numbers from my PTS duel against a DK friend today. So which one is actually the burst warrior? @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom 🤔

Pretty sure it’s the wolf. Sure the other guy (DK) did easily 30k in a single GCD, but the wolf did a scary bite for roughly 2.8kx2…

I’m pretty sure the wolf with the 5k bite is the burst warrior. Final answer.

Onslaught is also bugged on live currently and always critting when it shouldn't. They already said its been looked at.

RedMamba wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

HunterDawn wrote: »

Here are the damage numbers from my PTS duel against a DK friend today. So which one is actually the burst warrior? @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom 🤔

Pretty sure it’s the wolf. Sure the other guy (DK) did easily 30k in a single GCD, but the wolf did a scary bite for roughly 2.8kx2…

I’m pretty sure the wolf with the 5k bite is the burst warrior. Final answer.

Onslaught is also bugged on live currently and always critting when it shouldn't. They already said its been looked at.

Onslaught can crit normally (and it isn’t like full-penning with a burst ult doesn’t do damage even on a non-crit anyway) and that doesn’t remove the whip (which honestly was rather low), the Flames of Oblivion, or the Core of Flame that the OP was probably also hit with that wasn’t on the recap.

Beyond that, I already know about the bug. I’m the one and only person who placed a video on the thread before it was responded to by @ZOS_JessicaFolsom - you do know that, right?

Again, I clearly know about the onslaught bug as a result.

Reminder to all that burst playstyle does not equate to dot/pressure playstyle for all passers-through-

Wuuffyy wrote: »

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

We have removed some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

Thank you for being swift and I appreciate this!

[snip]

@ZOS_Icy Thank you!

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

We have removed some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

Imagine if you used same amount of time fixing your game as you write in here? The game would be shining now

Wuuffyy wrote: »

gammelscroll wrote: »

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

We have removed some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

Imagine if you used same amount of time fixing your game as you write in here? The game would be shining now

Hey friend, they are a mod over the content on the forums not the actual game itself.

I understand your frustration, I am equally frustrated at-the-least- but I'd rather direct my frustration towards the ones overseeing the balancing versus the few on the forums helping to keep the discussion on topic where possible.

Let's just keep providing the data, voicing our perspectives, and doing what we can as a reminder there are people who care about our preferred playstyle rather than just wanting it to see it disappear again.

I myself (unless something comes up) plan to grab more CMX 'sustain/damage' parses from duels tonight on PTS without CoE in to demonstrate the issues at-hand.

Iam so tired.of this game [snip] All i see in 3 sided BG now is 4 DKs on one team, and 3.dks and a sorc WW on the other team. Every BG.
And they still manage to let DK just vet a minor nerf that wont affect anything. Instead they make ww unplayable cause OH.MY GOD we cant have a DK counter!
And now they gutting sorc class mastery that made sorcs have alot of different builds.
@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom you guys nailed it this time.
[edited for baiting]

Bushido2513 wrote: »

gammelscroll wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

gammelscroll wrote: »

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

We have removed some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

Imagine if you used same amount of time fixing your game as you write in here? The game would be shining now

Hey friend, they are a mod over the content on the forums not the actual game itself.

I understand your frustration, I am equally frustrated at-the-least- but I'd rather direct my frustration towards the ones overseeing the balancing versus the few on the forums helping to keep the discussion on topic where possible.

Let's just keep providing the data, voicing our perspectives, and doing what we can as a reminder there are people who care about our preferred playstyle rather than just wanting it to see it disappear again.

I myself (unless something comes up) plan to grab more CMX 'sustain/damage' parses from duels tonight on PTS without CoE in to demonstrate the issues at-hand.

Iam so tired.of this game [snip] All i see in 3 sided BG now is 4 DKs on one team, and 3.dks and a sorc WW on the other team. Every BG.
And they still manage to let DK just vet a minor nerf that wont affect anything. Instead they make ww unplayable cause OH.MY GOD we cant have a DK counter!
And now they gutting sorc class mastery that made sorcs have alot of different builds.
@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom you guys nailed it this time.

As a sorc main I'm not exactly in love with the changes but at the same time it will help reign in obnoxious WWs and I can rework my builds to accommodate as I have done in the past.

Fun observation, at this point my sorc can laughably deal with dks yet ww, depending on the build and player, is either trolling with health and heals or hitting you with damage that takes a quarter of your health and keeps going. Both DK and WW kill bad players easily but WW but WW just takes it a step farther than DK in my opinion.

I say that to say that I see why WW got a heavier hand than DK because overall they can be anywhere from frustrating to downright seeming like a cheat code.

Even with the minor changes DK will just be even easier for me to handle so yeah maybe they didn't go far enough but I can still work with what's given. WW could have gotten a more graceful change and I hope they keep working on it if this change turns out to be absolutely horrible. But I won't like and say I won't enjoy a break from the obnoxious element that currently is ww.

As for cry babies as you all them, I think anyone that pays money for this game or puts time into this game gets a vote on what they want the game to be. When it comes to player preference is your opinion somehow more valid than the next player?

So ok you don't agree with that part of the community. You don't agree with the dev's changes, you don't seem to be enjoying the game. So maybe that's where your focus belongs? Maybe it's just not the game it once was or for you anymore?

Really good DKs are the most problematic, but I do agree that the run of the mill WW build on live is more annoying than the run of the mill DK. I find myself just disengaging when I can or just afk to die and port away rather than deal with the 40k+ health menace of HIrcine.
[edited to remove quote]

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

gammelscroll wrote: »

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

We have removed some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

Imagine if you used same amount of time fixing your game as you write in here? The game would be shining now

Hey friend, they are a mod over the content on the forums not the actual game itself.

I understand your frustration, I am equally frustrated at-the-least- but I'd rather direct my frustration towards the ones overseeing the balancing versus the few on the forums helping to keep the discussion on topic where possible.

Let's just keep providing the data, voicing our perspectives, and doing what we can as a reminder there are people who care about our preferred playstyle rather than just wanting it to see it disappear again.

I myself (unless something comes up) plan to grab more CMX 'sustain/damage' parses from duels tonight on PTS without CoE in to demonstrate the issues at-hand.

Best of luck to you in getting changes you can agree with on some level. I'm honestly pretty happy with the combat changes, even the ones that effect me as a sorc main. I think I'll have to rework my builds a bit but I've played sorc for years and it has gone up and down just like other classes.

I hope that if these changes really are game breaking for WW that something is done about it. At the same time I don't know any playstyle that isn't viable if you can adjust to what viable looks like. I remember when subclassing came out and max mag sorc had been pretty much obliterated in general and in favor of other things. I took me a while but I finally adjusted to the meta of that time.

I also played WW before the rework and thought it was pretty much trash but I remember there was one player I would see from time to time that just knew how to get kills and make it work for them. So hopefully whatever the change ends up being you'll be able to find some way to enjoy WW.

Thank you my good sir/madam!

Simply trying to have them acknowledge the promises they've made regarding werewolf and work to make it better where possible. I fully understand the scope of the CoE nerfs and absolutely agree with them for wolf so I'm not against them have certain things tweaked for the greater good. If I continue, I will 'make it work', I always have. With that being said, that doesn't mean that's 'fair to me' or 'balanced appropriately'.

I don't agree with sustain changes+ static reverb being rendered ineffective for werewolf bleeding over to PvE. I also don't like how the rework chose the route of 'cheaper sustain' to make 'mag builds' viable when there were other methods (such as the Arcanist 'highest resource/lowest resource' cost formula) to make that occur also (and then adjusted form sustain uptime/upkeep; point following)... especially since they turned Berserker to something that cannot be easily maintained indefinitely while in active combat without a least a decent stream of corpses and active combat (as opposed to before; as always, even 1 Packleader has strangely negated this also... but I don't have a 'pocket buddy' to drag with me everywhere I go).

Additionally, corpse-feeding (which is a requirement now for Berserker outside of potentially perfect-uptime active combat) feels very sluggish and unrewarding. 'Punishment-scheme' mechanics are almost always worse than 'reward scheme mechanics' (i.e. instead of punishing me for NOT feeding, reward me with a temporary buff for 30 seconds after feeding, etc. which is still incentivizing me feed when possible/ 'top off' very similarly to 'Continuous Attack').

I don't like how they reverted the costs (especially for PvP) without returning damage they removed (tooltips and passives), dot uptimes they affected within the course of a single PTS (the rework PTS), utility (like defiles that is a way to 'pressure' without high sustain), etc. I also don't appreciate being given a new avenue of damage and 'skill-expression' (bash weaving) via the high sustain and that not being returned in ANY real capacity post nerfs; that being skill expression I perceive as werewolf (one-bar) desperately needing, however minute.

I'm incredibly weary that with CoF and CoE staying in near tip-top shape that they will continue this sustain model virtually unimpeded and wolf will continue to be the only reworked 'class' without this ('high sustain neutral'). If so, a 'pressure playstyle' with reduced damage from a point and time from when it was considered to be objectively worse and without 'high sustain' will actually do worse than it ever has (which definitely doesn't seem like how a rework to make it better should go after only a patch or 2).

Based on all of my testing without CoE so-far, I don't think I could handle a competent sorc build and competent DK build (post nerfs, at that) on me for more than a handful of seconds without LoS. My sustain honestly couldn't support it; nevermind the non-purgeable snares from DK (at least for wolf). The stat distribution of needing stam for resources, health for healing, having our healing reduced (so needing more health to compensate for said lack of healing power), lack of resistance especially due to no minor resolve, essentially no ability to block with decent mitigation (the damage difference from DW for 'maximum damage' and sword and board are VERY drastic and we don't receive the majority of S&B passives) is once-again simply FAR too great (even on paper) to manage appropriately.

All of this and you NEED damage to compete. This isn't like any other build where you can build defense and the pocket an onslaught into whatever burst moves and still k*ll... if you don't have enough damage, you just don't axe people.

AdonisJorge wrote: »

HunterDawn wrote: »

Dark Magic nerf cuts total healing by 20 %, which cannot be offset by health stacking due to resource limits. Class Mastery resource regen is down 25 %; you need 25 000 Stamina just to keep current recovery. Resonance being disabled reduces total damage by ~6 %. The Sorcerer‑Werewolf Berserker build has no advantages now, forcing us onto Pack Leader for another ~10 % damage loss. Tripled ability costs require Shapeshifter Amulet, dropping damage another ~7 %. Overall, U51 Sorcerer‑Werewolf takes ~25 % total‑damage and 20 % total‑healing nerfs plus tripled ability costs. See the screenshot below for the damage gap。😅

A great oportunity to give WW more nerfs

You got it. The so‑called burst warrior Werewolf hits for just one‑third of DK’s damage. Total nonsense. Werewolf should get nerfed further.😳😅

Tested WW today again with @Wuuffyy and:

1 - Damage on Werewolf Berserker is very strong.

2 - Sustain is a major issue. Outside of Sorcerer, you simply won’t last in high-pressure situations. Even if you build full sustain — aiming for 2k stamina regen and full feat cost reduction glyphs while using Pack Leader, with Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Evasion, and the 15% damage reduction from Torc of the Last Ayleid King — you still get nearly one‑shot.

3 - Defensive builds burn through resources absurdly fast. Within about 10 seconds, both stamina and magicka are gone. Magicka is especially critical since you need it not only for healing but also to restore stamina. As a result, your pressure collapses completely.

I’m not even a top PvP player and was playing with high latency (200–300 ms), yet Wuuffy’s resources were still pushed to the edge while dueling me.

In any real high‑end/pressure PvP scenario, Werewolf runs out of fuel, and there’s very little that can be done to prevent it.

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Tested WW today again with @Wuuffyy and:

1 - Damage on Werewolf Berserker is very strong.

2 - Sustain is a major issue. Outside of Sorcerer, you simply won’t last in high-pressure situations. Even if you build full sustain — aiming for 2k stamina regen and full feat cost reduction glyphs while using Pack Leader, with Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Evasion, and the 15% damage reduction from Torc of the Last Ayleid King — you still get nearly one‑shot.

3 - Defensive builds burn through resources absurdly fast. Within about 10 seconds, both stamina and magicka are gone. Magicka is especially critical since you need it not only for healing but also to restore stamina. As a result, your pressure collapses completely.

I’m not even a top PvP player and was playing with high latency (200–300 ms), yet Wuuffy’s resources were still pushed to the edge while dueling me.

In any real high‑end/pressure PvP scenario, Werewolf runs out of fuel, and there’s very little that can be done to prevent it.

You are supposed to have to run some sort of sustain unlike currently on live with WW. That's why ZOS adjusted it and has ignored all suggestions so far. That's also why they nerfed DK and Sorc sustain. All 3 have been adjusted for next patch and is a good thing. You just have to learn how to adapt like the rest of us and change your build.

acanca wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Tested WW today again with @Wuuffyy and:

1 - Damage on Werewolf Berserker is very strong.

2 - Sustain is a major issue. Outside of Sorcerer, you simply won’t last in high-pressure situations. Even if you build full sustain — aiming for 2k stamina regen and full feat cost reduction glyphs while using Pack Leader, with Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Evasion, and the 15% damage reduction from Torc of the Last Ayleid King — you still get nearly one‑shot.

3 - Defensive builds burn through resources absurdly fast. Within about 10 seconds, both stamina and magicka are gone. Magicka is especially critical since you need it not only for healing but also to restore stamina. As a result, your pressure collapses completely.

I’m not even a top PvP player and was playing with high latency (200–300 ms), yet Wuuffy’s resources were still pushed to the edge while dueling me.

In any real high‑end/pressure PvP scenario, Werewolf runs out of fuel, and there’s very little that can be done to prevent it.

You aren’t supposed to last in high pressure situations. That’s what sustain options are for.
The only thing that singlehandedly allows it is core of flames. Despite what ppl here want to believe even before the nerfs to coe sustain it gave was very far from infinite, only ww sorc could due to coe being paired with exceptionally low skill costs.

This really lacks nuance doesnt it? There is a difference between a build being unuseable because of sustain and a build running out of sustain due to pressure.

For example, when i was using the dw scribing skill the only way i could really make it work was on a sorc with high stam because coe was overpowered, when i tried the same build on any other class, i would run out in 10-15 seconds.

Currently, on pts, ww plays more like the second on any class thats not sorc, and once the coe nerf goes live on pts i imagine not even on sorc it will be sustainable. It's not about the build running out of resources due to blocking dodge rolling too much etc, the costs are just too much.

And before you say it, yes we are talking about when using sustain food and sustain sets.

It actually is sustainable and I adjusted my build on PTS to work still. Shrug

Wuuffyy wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno (please pass through to combat team) - I don't know what else I can do or say to prove that you are making a mistake. I provide what I can, where I can aimlessly trying to pass the grander point along.

Everytime werewolf 'dies', it is when the sustain is adjusted too heavily or the healing is adjusted too heavily. When you remove damage options like static reverb and leave CoE, you aren't encouraging 'a way out', you're relegating werewolves you yet another subpar option that still lacks the damage with sustain of traditional options like Shapeshifter's chain + Imperial. The adjustments to CoE were appropriate, encouraging a choice IS the right path, however the sustain changes are now overkill.

I have attempted to build in a variety of ways where my damage, which must be consistent and high to outpace rampant healing and sustain (especially CoE mastery Sorc users and CoF skill Dragonknight users), I maintain a certain level of health 35k+, and maintain a certain level of sustain (even if it requires dedicating my race, mythic, and even food) to do so.

In every test I had, Smoked Bear Haunch in ESO and Artaeum Takeaway Broth (shown earlier in this thread via CMX) while seemingly a valid option caused me to lose far too many resources in stam and/or mag to the point that having 2k+ stamina recovery was still a detriment that caused me to burn out within around 15 seconds with essentially no break frees, no rolls, and no blocks (meaning in combat, just like demonstrated before also- I would likely 'burn out' within 4-5 seconds at most).

Building 5 med (22k resistance being nearly unviable in actual content i.e. 'glass cannon' for cost reduction), health where possible for healing, running Shapeshifter's Chain (unique resources and 15% cost reduction), Imperial (Highest Health and Stamina combo with 6% reduction)- I was able to last no more than 20 seconds EVEN with the break free CP (which would not be active in NO-CP BGs) and minimizing rolls (which some snares, immobilizes, and certain skills would force out) before bottoming-out stamina in a very dangerous way:









For an added benefit, with the same reduction gear (which would be abnormal for a mag build), and after stacking 35k+ mag (which caused my health to fall below 30k), I would still burn out within seconds in a dangerous way however only this time it didn't stabilize:





Meanwhile, post nerf-courtesy of our own @Arcana - this is DK on PTS blocking over 100 attacks (holding block) maintaining resource stability the entire time on what is arguably a combination pressure and burst class:



There are many on these forums that will debate this topic in logical fallacies, provide no evidence to back otherwise baseless claims, and are likely here to overwhelm and 'drown out' counter-argument- however valid-

I know at the end of the day I'm "just a werewolf player" but I implore to see the data and logical reasoning along with the promises made by the members who worked so hard to revitalize werewolf in a big way. I have no doubt this PTS patch will make to live as-is now for werewolf. I ask that over the next 3 months that you investigate and determine better solutions for this 'pressure, no burst, low sustain' playstyle you've created and try to understand the changes that made it objectively unviable in the first place.

Brother why are you pinging Gina...

Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the ever looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.

madmufffin wrote: »

Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.

To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.

Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.

I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.