Firstmep wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

*Per Templar ability slotted* is bad design

We should be encouraging build diversity not forcing everyone to play the same way.

I mean sure but that's the direction they seem to be headed.
I suspect it is to promote class identity above all else, and to combat subclassing.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

TL;DR the change to Balanced Warrior in Week 3 is a huge nerf to anyone not using Templar skills at all, including Templar Werewolves. I much prefer PTS Week 2's implementation.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

This is a huge nerf to Templar werewolves.

On Live, you get +6% Armor and +6% WD/SD regardless of whether you're using Werewolf form or Templar abilities.

On PTS Week 2, we still got +6% Armor, but now the WD/SD can increase if we increase our Armor:


But now on PTS Week 3, you're punished for not using your Templar skills at all. This is when I'm in Werewolf form:


...and this is when I've done the bare minimum in human form by slotting some unmorphed Templar skill in each slot:


The difference is staggering. We're losing 4% Armor and a ton of WD/SD if we're not actively using Templar skills.

BasP wrote: »

Warden

It's nice that the class has received some small buffs. I do get that you're currently amidst the refresh, which I'm really looking forward to, and therefore I don't actually expect more changes this PTS. That being said, I still couldn't resist listing some changes I'd personally like to see nonetheless.

Sustain
The Warden's sustain is pretty bad compared to that of other classes (aside from the Templar). I think it'd be great if that could be improved prior to the refresh. Perhaps the Netch's resource return could be buffed a little bit..?

Arctic Blast
Judging by posts I've read on the forums and Reddit over the last 2(?) years, I think quite some players would be happy if Arctic Blast would always heal you and not just when you don't hit an enemy. That stipulation makes the heal a tad awkward to use.

Winter's Revenge
The fact that it deals 30% more damage when cast with a Destruction Staff equipped kind of feels like a relic of the past to me. It would be great if that stipulation would be dropped and the base damage would just be increased by 30%, since the DoT isn't strong without it.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Gupitoos wrote: »

Even after the layoffs, estimates suggest ZOS may still have somewhere around 224–281 employees. Obviously, not every single one of those people works on combat or class balance, but we’re still talking about a sizeable development studio. At this point, it’s difficult to accept “lack of resources” as an excuse for the state of class balance. With proper organisation, priorities and enough people actually assigned to combat, the major class reworks could be completed in a relatively short period of time (a month even). Instead, it often feels like the problem is productivity and priorities. Like many large companies, it’s very easy for inefficiency to creep in and for people to get away with producing far less than they realistically could.

And that’s what makes the direction of ESO so frustrating. It increasingly feels as though the priority is simply to milk an established game rather than seriously improve it, and frankly, that feeling hasn’t appeared overnight. It’s been building for the better part of a decade.

Look at what has happened with Dragonknight.

DK was arguably one of the weakest classes during the subclass meta. To compete, you had DKs running ridiculous setups involving sets like Pyre and Relequen, where essentially the sets were playing the game rather than the class or the player. ZOS finally reworked DK, only to turn around and hammer it again by ruining its sustain and destroying it’s Molten Whip damage, which you know, it can be blocked anyways. Flame lash is the only good change, this thing had no reason being so busted in PVP.

Meanwhile, look at what they’re allowing elsewhere.

Werewolves can still benefit from class masteries while having enormous damage, extremely strong healing and an incredibly effective one-bar playstyle. Sorcerer, somehow continues escaping the treatment DK receives despite having some incredibly strong passives (actually strongest ones by far), infinite sustain, huge burst potential and one of the strongest mobility tools in PvP: Streak.

Streak is just ridiculous. Teleport has no room in a PvP game. With the sustain available through subclassing/masteries, Sorcs can now spam it until Jesus’s second coming while maintaining tremendous pressure as it can do 10k+ damage. Oh it’s also unblockable and undodgeable

And this is where the balancing decisions start feeling completely backwards.

Sorcerer is one of the easiest classes for less experienced players to get value from while simultaneously having an extremely high level of effectiveness in experienced hands. Yet rather than properly addressing the things that make Sorc oppressive, ZOS repeatedly seems to hit classes capable of challenging it. Whether that’s because Sorc has a huge player population, because changing it would upset too many players, or for some other reason, people can draw their own conclusions. But the result is the same: the balancing decisions on this post make increasingly little sense.

The state of ESO PvP is beyond disappointing.

The skill ceiling feels increasingly compressed. Gear, sets, CP and whatever the current overtuned interaction happens to be have far too much influence compared with individual mechanical skill. When sets and passive interactions are doing so much of the work, winning stops feeling like you outplayed somebody and starts feeling like you brought the better spreadsheet. In plain words, PvP is about gear and cp.

And now we’re apparently supposed to accept a situation where Sorcs, a class that hasn’t been reworked yet can have far better sustain than DKs, deliver damage faster and better, maintain enormous mobility through Streak, while DK gets its sustain and one of its defining offensive abilities knocked down again.


After years of this cycle, these latest changes may finally be the point where it’s simply time to move on to another game. ESO PvP could be so much better than this, which is exactly what makes watching these decisions happen over and over again so frustrating.

It’s painfully obvious too, that the people responsible for those changes and the shambles of the PVP state since subclassing, just test these changes casually and not competitively.

@ZOS_Kevin do you or anyone thats part of the PVP combat team, play PVP competitively ?

Streak is strong but Streak has proper downsides which make it fine:

Streak is only 15m in range whereas most other gap closers are 22m in range, meaning that if a Sorc Streaks away from an attacker they're not necessarily out of range.

Streak has a progressive cost, so every time a player casts it the costs increases by 33%. Even with CoE, spamming Streak is going to eat into a players pool because CoE doesn't deliver that much resource. The CoE passive definitely makes Streak more viable to cast repeatedly than it used to be but it's still not a free-for-all to just Streak spam across the map.

Streak is undodgeable and unblockable but it's not totally unavoidable. Some of the more powerful mobility skills in the game like RaT or DK & Warden's wings, all provide Expedition. Movement speed buffs are a common method of damage and status mitigation.

A player with movement speed can sometimes avoid the stun of Streak by simply strafe moving since Sreak has a wind up animation after it's cast, before the Streak takes place. Streak is a linear commitment so if a player can quickly move off sides they can potentially avoid the stun if they have enough distance between them and the caster.

Streak also doesn't provide any I-frames so Sorcs casting the skill aren't immune from damage or status effects.

Streak is a solid skill and has plenty of effectiveness but it's not as though there aren't other strong mobility skills in combat.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Gupitoos wrote: »

Even after the layoffs, estimates suggest ZOS may still have somewhere around 224–281 employees. Obviously, not every single one of those people works on combat or class balance, but we’re still talking about a sizeable development studio. At this point, it’s difficult to accept “lack of resources” as an excuse for the state of class balance. With proper organisation, priorities and enough people actually assigned to combat, the major class reworks could be completed in a relatively short period of time (a month even). Instead, it often feels like the problem is productivity and priorities. Like many large companies, it’s very easy for inefficiency to creep in and for people to get away with producing far less than they realistically could.

And that’s what makes the direction of ESO so frustrating. It increasingly feels as though the priority is simply to milk an established game rather than seriously improve it, and frankly, that feeling hasn’t appeared overnight. It’s been building for the better part of a decade.

Look at what has happened with Dragonknight.

DK was arguably one of the weakest classes during the subclass meta. To compete, you had DKs running ridiculous setups involving sets like Pyre and Relequen, where essentially the sets were playing the game rather than the class or the player. ZOS finally reworked DK, only to turn around and hammer it again by ruining its sustain and destroying it’s Molten Whip damage, which you know, it can be blocked anyways. Flame lash is the only good change, this thing had no reason being so busted in PVP.

Meanwhile, look at what they’re allowing elsewhere.

Werewolves can still benefit from class masteries while having enormous damage, extremely strong healing and an incredibly effective one-bar playstyle. Sorcerer, somehow continues escaping the treatment DK receives despite having some incredibly strong passives (actually strongest ones by far), infinite sustain, huge burst potential and one of the strongest mobility tools in PvP: Streak.

Streak is just ridiculous. Teleport has no room in a PvP game. With the sustain available through subclassing/masteries, Sorcs can now spam it until Jesus’s second coming while maintaining tremendous pressure as it can do 10k+ damage. Oh it’s also unblockable and undodgeable

And this is where the balancing decisions start feeling completely backwards.

Sorcerer is one of the easiest classes for less experienced players to get value from while simultaneously having an extremely high level of effectiveness in experienced hands. Yet rather than properly addressing the things that make Sorc oppressive, ZOS repeatedly seems to hit classes capable of challenging it. Whether that’s because Sorc has a huge player population, because changing it would upset too many players, or for some other reason, people can draw their own conclusions. But the result is the same: the balancing decisions on this post make increasingly little sense.

The state of ESO PvP is beyond disappointing.

The skill ceiling feels increasingly compressed. Gear, sets, CP and whatever the current overtuned interaction happens to be have far too much influence compared with individual mechanical skill. When sets and passive interactions are doing so much of the work, winning stops feeling like you outplayed somebody and starts feeling like you brought the better spreadsheet. In plain words, PvP is about gear and cp.

And now we’re apparently supposed to accept a situation where Sorcs, a class that hasn’t been reworked yet can have far better sustain than DKs, deliver damage faster and better, maintain enormous mobility through Streak, while DK gets its sustain and one of its defining offensive abilities knocked down again.


After years of this cycle, these latest changes may finally be the point where it’s simply time to move on to another game. ESO PvP could be so much better than this, which is exactly what makes watching these decisions happen over and over again so frustrating.

It’s painfully obvious too, that the people responsible for those changes and the shambles of the PVP state since subclassing, just test these changes casually and not competitively.

@ZOS_Kevin do you or anyone thats part of the PVP combat team, play PVP competitively ?

Streak is strong but Streak has proper downsides which make it fine:

Streak is only 15m in range whereas most other gap closers are 22m in range, meaning that if a Sorc Streaks away from an attacker they're not necessarily out of range.

Streak has a progressive cost, so every time a player casts it the costs increases by 33%. Even with CoE, spamming Streak is going to eat into a players pool because CoE doesn't deliver that much resource. The CoE passive definitely makes Streak more viable to cast repeatedly than it used to be but it's still not a free-for-all to just Streak spam across the map.

Streak is undodgeable and unblockable but it's not totally unavoidable. Some of the more powerful mobility skills in the game like RaT or DK & Warden's wings, all provide Expedition. Movement speed buffs are a common method of damage and status mitigation.

A player with movement speed can sometimes avoid the stun of Streak by simply strafe moving since Sreak has a wind up animation after it's cast, before the Streak takes place. Streak is a linear commitment so if a player can quickly move off sides they can potentially avoid the stun if they have enough distance between them and the caster.

Streak also doesn't provide any I-frames so Sorcs casting the skill aren't immune from damage or status effects.

Streak is a solid skill and has plenty of effectiveness but it's not as though there aren't other strong mobility skills in combat.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Gupitoos wrote: »

Even after the layoffs, estimates suggest ZOS may still have somewhere around 224–281 employees. Obviously, not every single one of those people works on combat or class balance, but we’re still talking about a sizeable development studio. At this point, it’s difficult to accept “lack of resources” as an excuse for the state of class balance. With proper organisation, priorities and enough people actually assigned to combat, the major class reworks could be completed in a relatively short period of time (a month even). Instead, it often feels like the problem is productivity and priorities. Like many large companies, it’s very easy for inefficiency to creep in and for people to get away with producing far less than they realistically could.

And that’s what makes the direction of ESO so frustrating. It increasingly feels as though the priority is simply to milk an established game rather than seriously improve it, and frankly, that feeling hasn’t appeared overnight. It’s been building for the better part of a decade.

Look at what has happened with Dragonknight.

DK was arguably one of the weakest classes during the subclass meta. To compete, you had DKs running ridiculous setups involving sets like Pyre and Relequen, where essentially the sets were playing the game rather than the class or the player. ZOS finally reworked DK, only to turn around and hammer it again by ruining its sustain and destroying it’s Molten Whip damage, which you know, it can be blocked anyways. Flame lash is the only good change, this thing had no reason being so busted in PVP.

Meanwhile, look at what they’re allowing elsewhere.

Werewolves can still benefit from class masteries while having enormous damage, extremely strong healing and an incredibly effective one-bar playstyle. Sorcerer, somehow continues escaping the treatment DK receives despite having some incredibly strong passives (actually strongest ones by far), infinite sustain, huge burst potential and one of the strongest mobility tools in PvP: Streak.

Streak is just ridiculous. Teleport has no room in a PvP game. With the sustain available through subclassing/masteries, Sorcs can now spam it until Jesus’s second coming while maintaining tremendous pressure as it can do 10k+ damage. Oh it’s also unblockable and undodgeable

And this is where the balancing decisions start feeling completely backwards.

Sorcerer is one of the easiest classes for less experienced players to get value from while simultaneously having an extremely high level of effectiveness in experienced hands. Yet rather than properly addressing the things that make Sorc oppressive, ZOS repeatedly seems to hit classes capable of challenging it. Whether that’s because Sorc has a huge player population, because changing it would upset too many players, or for some other reason, people can draw their own conclusions. But the result is the same: the balancing decisions on this post make increasingly little sense.

The state of ESO PvP is beyond disappointing.

The skill ceiling feels increasingly compressed. Gear, sets, CP and whatever the current overtuned interaction happens to be have far too much influence compared with individual mechanical skill. When sets and passive interactions are doing so much of the work, winning stops feeling like you outplayed somebody and starts feeling like you brought the better spreadsheet. In plain words, PvP is about gear and cp.

And now we’re apparently supposed to accept a situation where Sorcs, a class that hasn’t been reworked yet can have far better sustain than DKs, deliver damage faster and better, maintain enormous mobility through Streak, while DK gets its sustain and one of its defining offensive abilities knocked down again.


After years of this cycle, these latest changes may finally be the point where it’s simply time to move on to another game. ESO PvP could be so much better than this, which is exactly what makes watching these decisions happen over and over again so frustrating.

It’s painfully obvious too, that the people responsible for those changes and the shambles of the PVP state since subclassing, just test these changes casually and not competitively.

@ZOS_Kevin do you or anyone thats part of the PVP combat team, play PVP competitively ?

Streak is strong but Streak has proper downsides which make it fine:

Streak is only 15m in range whereas most other gap closers are 22m in range, meaning that if a Sorc Streaks away from an attacker they're not necessarily out of range.

Streak has a progressive cost, so every time a player casts it the costs increases by 33%. Even with CoE, spamming Streak is going to eat into a players pool because CoE doesn't deliver that much resource. The CoE passive definitely makes Streak more viable to cast repeatedly than it used to be but it's still not a free-for-all to just Streak spam across the map.

Streak is undodgeable and unblockable but it's not totally unavoidable. Some of the more powerful mobility skills in the game like RaT or DK & Warden's wings, all provide Expedition. Movement speed buffs are a common method of damage and status mitigation.

A player with movement speed can sometimes avoid the stun of Streak by simply strafe moving since Sreak has a wind up animation after it's cast, before the Streak takes place. Streak is a linear commitment so if a player can quickly move off sides they can potentially avoid the stun if they have enough distance between them and the caster.

Streak also doesn't provide any I-frames so Sorcs casting the skill aren't immune from damage or status effects.

Streak is a solid skill and has plenty of effectiveness but it's not as though there aren't other strong mobility skills in combat.

Gupitoos wrote: »

Ok you’re just trolling mate and are clearly a sorc main.
If the slight increased cost on streak spam is so bad then how are the sorcs able to abuse streak in open world areas such as Imp City to run around whole district in order to find a balcony to climb to? The ability costs 3700 some magicka I think which is even less if you’re a Breton or Imperial and all you have to do is wait 4 seconds.

Gupitoos wrote: »

You know after streaking through someone - by the time they break the cc and catch up to you, you can just streak again as 4 seconds will have either passed or be about to pass and you can therefore use it at regular cost. 4 seconds is simply not enough. If streak had a cost of 5500 or something magicka then it would be better. For average Sorc player streak will cost 3400 magicka or 3330 magicka, pick your poison.

Gupitoos wrote: »

In most PvP situations, streak is completely unavoidable, there’s not enough time to react to it cos it’s instant

Crystal frags, bound armaments, ele sus, static reverberation, energy overload, the list goes on.

Gupitoos wrote: »

Sorc has always been the strongest class in PvP, and streak is an overpowered skill that has no place in a proper PvP game and allows them to make mistakes as they can just teleport twice and heal up by the time someone catches up to them.


But bro is a delulu and thinks Sorc is fine and streak is balanced and not a completed overpowered skill in game:)

Perhaps, you can name another mobility skill currently in game which is capable of dealing 10-15k instant damage, while being instant, cheap resource cost (3300-3800) and essentially unblockable/undodgeable

• This passive now grants a base w/s damage which improves based on how many Sorcerer skills are slotted (200 + (75 x # of Sorcerer skills)), and increases your Bonus Movement Speed based on the highest of your w/s damage and how many Sorcerer skills are slotted (1% + 1% x # of Sorcerer skills + 0.005% x w/s damage). The Bonus Movement Speed is capped to 10%.

Militan1404 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Balanced Warrior changes are pretty neat. BUT, Templar is already a little overloaded defensively, so to make room for the new Balanced Warrior, please consider nerfing Living Dark heal a wee bit.

Are you really asking for templar nerfs allready? And what whats make living dark so op i am realy curious to know??Templar has no mobility and and no sustain and one of the worst delayed burst of all classes, and if its supposed to be the stand your ground class it needs to be tanky as heck. compare that to sorc that has all the things templar lacks. And also with plar you could even go 12k wep and spell dmg and ti wouldnt make a diffrence becouse of how badly most of the skills scale with it.

Compare living dark to vigor and tell me why would anyone use living dark instead of vigor if you nerf it more?

And read the changes again? Its a big nerf to templar, not a buff

It's not a nerf, my current stamplar PvP build is getting about 100 additional weapon damage and about 3500 additional resists. It's a really nice buff, I just don't want to see an unkillable armorplar meta. Balanced Warrior is a step in the right direction, but I think some defensive power needs to be trimmed elsewhere because plar already shines defensively.

So you saying this makes up for the 16% wepon and spell dmg plars lost? Templars get more dmg from slotting fightes guild abilitys then slotting templar abilitys. And that you think a bit extra resistance for templar would break the game just make me question your knowledge about the game..you could give tempars 100k resistance and it wouldnt matter at all becouse we are in a onslaught and corrosive meta now and it takes just one good combo to burst them down and nothing about that would change next patch, and its not like it is any hard to reach resistance cap allready anyway. And then templars dmg would be debuffed by minor and major breach and sets that reduce resistance and sorc new group buff and etc. and mobility, sustain, dmg shield and dmg reduction by % is all better than resistance and plars dont do good in any of those depapartments, and there is classes that have all those combined with insaine dmg what templars also lacks. So that you are afraid that 3500 extra resistance would make one of the worst classes in the game unnkillable monsters while unnkillable dks and sorcs are everywhere is just silly and just proves why the game is in the state it is, that everyone with zero knowledge about anything can come here and cry for nerfs.

Solariken wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Balanced Warrior changes are pretty neat. BUT, Templar is already a little overloaded defensively, so to make room for the new Balanced Warrior, please consider nerfing Living Dark heal a wee bit.

Are you really asking for templar nerfs allready? And what whats make living dark so op i am realy curious to know??Templar has no mobility and and no sustain and one of the worst delayed burst of all classes, and if its supposed to be the stand your ground class it needs to be tanky as heck. compare that to sorc that has all the things templar lacks. And also with plar you could even go 12k wep and spell dmg and ti wouldnt make a diffrence becouse of how badly most of the skills scale with it.

Compare living dark to vigor and tell me why would anyone use living dark instead of vigor if you nerf it more?

And read the changes again? Its a big nerf to templar, not a buff

It's not a nerf, my current stamplar PvP build is getting about 100 additional weapon damage and about 3500 additional resists. It's a really nice buff, I just don't want to see an unkillable armorplar meta. Balanced Warrior is a step in the right direction, but I think some defensive power needs to be trimmed elsewhere because plar already shines defensively.

So you saying this makes up for the 16% wepon and spell dmg plars lost? Templars get more dmg from slotting fightes guild abilitys then slotting templar abilitys. And that you think a bit extra resistance for templar would break the game just make me question your knowledge about the game..you could give tempars 100k resistance and it wouldnt matter at all becouse we are in a onslaught and corrosive meta now and it takes just one good combo to burst them down and nothing about that would change next patch, and its not like it is any hard to reach resistance cap allready anyway. And then templars dmg would be debuffed by minor and major breach and sets that reduce resistance and sorc new group buff and etc. and mobility, sustain, dmg shield and dmg reduction by % is all better than resistance and plars dont do good in any of those depapartments, and there is classes that have all those combined with insaine dmg what templars also lacks. So that you are afraid that 3500 extra resistance would make one of the worst classes in the game unnkillable monsters while unnkillable dks and sorcs are everywhere is just silly and just proves why the game is in the state it is, that everyone with zero knowledge about anything can come here and cry for nerfs.

Multiple GO's here, Templar main, been playing since launch.

I'm not saying the damage buff is enough, you're not understanding the issue. Chill out and think it through.

Plar is getting a massive defensive buff with these changes, in addition to a small offensive buff (in PvP anyway). This is going to make plar pretty strong.

Now that the class has more innate tankiness, it's safe to trim some of the "active" tankiness, and I think Living Dark is a good place to start.

Solariken wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Balanced Warrior changes are pretty neat. BUT, Templar is already a little overloaded defensively, so to make room for the new Balanced Warrior, please consider nerfing Living Dark heal a wee bit.

Are you really asking for templar nerfs allready? And what whats make living dark so op i am realy curious to know??Templar has no mobility and and no sustain and one of the worst delayed burst of all classes, and if its supposed to be the stand your ground class it needs to be tanky as heck. compare that to sorc that has all the things templar lacks. And also with plar you could even go 12k wep and spell dmg and ti wouldnt make a diffrence becouse of how badly most of the skills scale with it.

Compare living dark to vigor and tell me why would anyone use living dark instead of vigor if you nerf it more?

And read the changes again? Its a big nerf to templar, not a buff

It's not a nerf, my current stamplar PvP build is getting about 100 additional weapon damage and about 3500 additional resists. It's a really nice buff, I just don't want to see an unkillable armorplar meta. Balanced Warrior is a step in the right direction, but I think some defensive power needs to be trimmed elsewhere because plar already shines defensively.

So you saying this makes up for the 16% wepon and spell dmg plars lost? Templars get more dmg from slotting fightes guild abilitys then slotting templar abilitys. And that you think a bit extra resistance for templar would break the game just make me question your knowledge about the game..you could give tempars 100k resistance and it wouldnt matter at all becouse we are in a onslaught and corrosive meta now and it takes just one good combo to burst them down and nothing about that would change next patch, and its not like it is any hard to reach resistance cap allready anyway. And then templars dmg would be debuffed by minor and major breach and sets that reduce resistance and sorc new group buff and etc. and mobility, sustain, dmg shield and dmg reduction by % is all better than resistance and plars dont do good in any of those depapartments, and there is classes that have all those combined with insaine dmg what templars also lacks. So that you are afraid that 3500 extra resistance would make one of the worst classes in the game unnkillable monsters while unnkillable dks and sorcs are everywhere is just silly and just proves why the game is in the state it is, that everyone with zero knowledge about anything can come here and cry for nerfs.

Multiple GO's here, Templar main, been playing since launch.

I'm not saying the damage buff is enough, you're not understanding the issue. Chill out and think it through.

Plar is getting a massive defensive buff with these changes, in addition to a small offensive buff (in PvP anyway). This is going to make plar pretty strong.

Now that the class has more innate tankiness, it's safe to trim some of the "active" tankiness, and I think Living Dark is a good place to start.

Plar still going to get straight mauled in this Corrosive/Onslaught meta. More 5k more resistances isn't gonna change that. Plar exists in a space where it is neither defensive or offensive enough to compete with the big boys and will just be curb stomped repeatedly in PVP unless a massive player skill gap exists.

What if I told you there is an addon that flashes a warning whenever Corrosive or Onslaught are active near you... Makes those ults a lot less threatening.

Solariken wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Balanced Warrior changes are pretty neat. BUT, Templar is already a little overloaded defensively, so to make room for the new Balanced Warrior, please consider nerfing Living Dark heal a wee bit.

Are you really asking for templar nerfs allready? And what whats make living dark so op i am realy curious to know??Templar has no mobility and and no sustain and one of the worst delayed burst of all classes, and if its supposed to be the stand your ground class it needs to be tanky as heck. compare that to sorc that has all the things templar lacks. And also with plar you could even go 12k wep and spell dmg and ti wouldnt make a diffrence becouse of how badly most of the skills scale with it.

Compare living dark to vigor and tell me why would anyone use living dark instead of vigor if you nerf it more?

And read the changes again? Its a big nerf to templar, not a buff

It's not a nerf, my current stamplar PvP build is getting about 100 additional weapon damage and about 3500 additional resists. It's a really nice buff, I just don't want to see an unkillable armorplar meta. Balanced Warrior is a step in the right direction, but I think some defensive power needs to be trimmed elsewhere because plar already shines defensively.

So you saying this makes up for the 16% wepon and spell dmg plars lost? Templars get more dmg from slotting fightes guild abilitys then slotting templar abilitys. And that you think a bit extra resistance for templar would break the game just make me question your knowledge about the game..you could give tempars 100k resistance and it wouldnt matter at all becouse we are in a onslaught and corrosive meta now and it takes just one good combo to burst them down and nothing about that would change next patch, and its not like it is any hard to reach resistance cap allready anyway. And then templars dmg would be debuffed by minor and major breach and sets that reduce resistance and sorc new group buff and etc. and mobility, sustain, dmg shield and dmg reduction by % is all better than resistance and plars dont do good in any of those depapartments, and there is classes that have all those combined with insaine dmg what templars also lacks. So that you are afraid that 3500 extra resistance would make one of the worst classes in the game unnkillable monsters while unnkillable dks and sorcs are everywhere is just silly and just proves why the game is in the state it is, that everyone with zero knowledge about anything can come here and cry for nerfs.

Multiple GO's here, Templar main, been playing since launch.

I'm not saying the damage buff is enough, you're not understanding the issue. Chill out and think it through.

Plar is getting a massive defensive buff with these changes, in addition to a small offensive buff (in PvP anyway). This is going to make plar pretty strong.

Now that the class has more innate tankiness, it's safe to trim some of the "active" tankiness, and I think Living Dark is a good place to start.

Plar still going to get straight mauled in this Corrosive/Onslaught meta. More 5k more resistances isn't gonna change that. Plar exists in a space where it is neither defensive or offensive enough to compete with the big boys and will just be curb stomped repeatedly in PVP unless a massive player skill gap exists.

What if I told you there is an addon that flashes a warning whenever Corrosive or Onslaught are active near you... Makes those ults a lot less threatening.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Gupitoos wrote: »

Ok you’re just trolling mate and are clearly a sorc main.
If the slight increased cost on streak spam is so bad then how are the sorcs able to abuse streak in open world areas such as Imp City to run around whole district in order to find a balcony to climb to? The ability costs 3700 some magicka I think which is even less if you’re a Breton or Imperial and all you have to do is wait 4 seconds.

Streak has a base cost of 3,780 but for most Sorcs the cost is probably closer to 3,500 +/-. Streak carries a progressive use penalty that applies 33% of the base skill cost to each successive cast made within that 4 second window.

So if the skill has a base cost of 3,550, then casting a 2nd time would cost the Sorc 4,800, then again a 3rd time within a new 4 second window the cost goes to 6,048, if cast again within 4 seconds it costs 7,295 .., and again within 4 seconds 8,543. So the cost goes up significantly.

Yes, CoE helps make that more viable, but, even on a Sorc with 49k Mag, the passive is going to return 970 Mag per cost-skill or ability used. Again, yes, that helps but it doesn't give anyone a free-cost Streak. Sorcs can slot CoE and lean on Dark Conversion in a pinch, which are all valid things to do but each one of those choices comes with an opportunity cost somewhere.

Gupitoos wrote: »

You know after streaking through someone - by the time they break the cc and catch up to you, you can just streak again as 4 seconds will have either passed or be about to pass and you can therefore use it at regular cost. 4 seconds is simply not enough. If streak had a cost of 5500 or something magicka then it would be better. For average Sorc player streak will cost 3400 magicka or 3330 magicka, pick your poison.

Players can break-free of the Streak stun mid-animation so this really depends on how far at range the target is when the Sorc hits them. If the target is closer then there's a better chance they can break free and start to pursue by the time Streak completes, if the target is farther then the Sorc has a better chance of using back-to-back Streaks to put distance .. which is fine, IMO, since practically everyone in PvP has either a gap closer or mobility buffs in order to close distance.

Gupitoos wrote: »

In most PvP situations, streak is completely unavoidable, there’s not enough time to react to it cos it’s instant

Crystal frags, bound armaments, ele sus, static reverberation, energy overload, the list goes on.

Streak is instant-cast but it has a "wind up" animation (for lack of a better term), where the Sorc turns into a ball of lightning before streaking forward. Now, I'm not saying that this is a proper telegraph, it's not, but the Skill isn't instant-to-respond, it's just instant to cast. Frags has a 0.8 cast time off of it's bonus proc so I'm not sure why that's relevant here.

Gupitoos wrote: »

Sorc has always been the strongest class in PvP, and streak is an overpowered skill that has no place in a proper PvP game and allows them to make mistakes as they can just teleport twice and heal up by the time someone catches up to them.


But bro is a delulu and thinks Sorc is fine and streak is balanced and not a completed overpowered skill in game:)

Perhaps, you can name another mobility skill currently in game which is capable of dealing 10-15k instant damage, while being instant, cheap resource cost (3300-3800) and essentially unblockable/undodgeable

Streak doesn't scale to 10k - 15k .. a high mag + high spell damage Sorc will tooltip around 7,500, maybe 8,000 damage on Streak. Aurora Javelin will scale to just as much damage, is un-blockable, and bypasses the target resistances so a greater amount of the damage will affect the target.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Gupitoos wrote: »

Ok you’re just trolling mate and are clearly a sorc main.
If the slight increased cost on streak spam is so bad then how are the sorcs able to abuse streak in open world areas such as Imp City to run around whole district in order to find a balcony to climb to? The ability costs 3700 some magicka I think which is even less if you’re a Breton or Imperial and all you have to do is wait 4 seconds.

Streak has a base cost of 3,780 but for most Sorcs the cost is probably closer to 3,500 +/-. Streak carries a progressive use penalty that applies 33% of the base skill cost to each successive cast made within that 4 second window.

So if the skill has a base cost of 3,550, then casting a 2nd time would cost the Sorc 4,800, then again a 3rd time within a new 4 second window the cost goes to 6,048, if cast again within 4 seconds it costs 7,295 .., and again within 4 seconds 8,543. So the cost goes up significantly.

Yes, CoE helps make that more viable, but, even on a Sorc with 49k Mag, the passive is going to return 970 Mag per cost-skill or ability used. Again, yes, that helps but it doesn't give anyone a free-cost Streak. Sorcs can slot CoE and lean on Dark Conversion in a pinch, which are all valid things to do but each one of those choices comes with an opportunity cost somewhere.

Gupitoos wrote: »

You know after streaking through someone - by the time they break the cc and catch up to you, you can just streak again as 4 seconds will have either passed or be about to pass and you can therefore use it at regular cost. 4 seconds is simply not enough. If streak had a cost of 5500 or something magicka then it would be better. For average Sorc player streak will cost 3400 magicka or 3330 magicka, pick your poison.

Players can break-free of the Streak stun mid-animation so this really depends on how far at range the target is when the Sorc hits them. If the target is closer then there's a better chance they can break free and start to pursue by the time Streak completes, if the target is farther then the Sorc has a better chance of using back-to-back Streaks to put distance .. which is fine, IMO, since practically everyone in PvP has either a gap closer or mobility buffs in order to close distance.

Gupitoos wrote: »

In most PvP situations, streak is completely unavoidable, there’s not enough time to react to it cos it’s instant

Crystal frags, bound armaments, ele sus, static reverberation, energy overload, the list goes on.

Streak is instant-cast but it has a "wind up" animation (for lack of a better term), where the Sorc turns into a ball of lightning before streaking forward. Now, I'm not saying that this is a proper telegraph, it's not, but the Skill isn't instant-to-respond, it's just instant to cast. Frags has a 0.8 cast time off of it's bonus proc so I'm not sure why that's relevant here.

Gupitoos wrote: »

Sorc has always been the strongest class in PvP, and streak is an overpowered skill that has no place in a proper PvP game and allows them to make mistakes as they can just teleport twice and heal up by the time someone catches up to them.


But bro is a delulu and thinks Sorc is fine and streak is balanced and not a completed overpowered skill in game:)

Perhaps, you can name another mobility skill currently in game which is capable of dealing 10-15k instant damage, while being instant, cheap resource cost (3300-3800) and essentially unblockable/undodgeable

Streak doesn't scale to 10k - 15k .. a high mag + high spell damage Sorc will tooltip around 7,500, maybe 8,000 damage on Streak. Aurora Javelin will scale to just as much damage, is un-blockable, and bypasses the target resistances so a greater amount of the damage will affect the target.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Based on the DK and Werewolf refreshes, in conjunction with the recent Templar Balanced Warrior changes I'd like to suggest a possible idea for Sorcerer's future refresh in regards to the Expert Mage passive, w/s damage, and bonus movement speed.

Expert Mage:

• This passive now grants a base w/s damage which improves based on how many Sorcerer skills are slotted (200 + (75 x # of Sorcerer skills)), and increases your Bonus Movement Speed based on the highest of your w/s damage and how many Sorcerer skills are slotted (1% + 1% x # of Sorcerer skills + 0.005% x w/s damage). The Bonus Movement Speed is capped to 10%.

Example with 6000 w/s damage after modifiers and 4 Sorc skills slotted:

W/S damage
= 200 + (75 x 4) (50% modifier)
= 500 w/s damage x 1.5
= 750
Total = 6750

Movement Speed
(1% + 1% x # of Sorcerer skills + 0.005% x w/s damage)
= 1% + 1% x 4 + 0.0005 x 6750
= 1% + 4% + 0.0005 x 6750
= 5% + 3.375%
= 8.375%

Formula's could be adjusted for balance, as well as the cap, but general idea is the important part.

Basically same premise as Balanced Warrior and Fan the Flames, while also introducing a unique movement speed bonus for Sorcerer's that puts them slightly above other classes, something that was lost over the years with subclassing, jewelry crafting, and better access to minor expedition.

madmufffin wrote: »

I'm a big fan of Sorc and it's my pvp main these days, but realistically streak just needs to be removed. Too much of the classes kit gets left in a dead state because streak makes balancing the class so hard. If you remove streak and make it into an actual phys morph/shock morph damage spammable that the class has needed for ages. I think it would be better for the class and pvp as a whole.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

I'm a big fan of Sorc and it's my pvp main these days, but realistically streak just needs to be removed. Too much of the classes kit gets left in a dead state because streak makes balancing the class so hard. If you remove streak and make it into an actual phys morph/shock morph damage spammable that the class has needed for ages. I think it would be better for the class and pvp as a whole.

Streak doesn't need to be removed and lets be honest here, removing it would still not be enough for the majority of people that constantly cry about Sorc here on the forums (as evidenced by comments on a thread I made back in U36 when Sorc was designated the "crafting bench tier" class where I completely removed the stun from streak as a way to bring up the rest of the kit).

What has been needed though was the rest of the kit and the game to have been designed/adjusted in the past with it existing in mind.

Things for Sorc like:
- Clunky cast time heals/sustain on Sorc (which does exist in Dark Deal, pets)
- Unique "mitigations" that aren't the generic OP block (that used to exist in shields, pets and mobility before these were nerfed/given out to appease the constant crying of non-sorcs).
- Clunky but potent damage when combined properly (again, cast times, etc. like on frags that can also be rolled, or spread out damage like on armaments, or cleansable damage like curse)

But this also requires the rest of the game to acknowledge these balance requirements for having this ability/design and to accept they also need to be balanced accordingly, such as:
-No free speed/mobility being generically given out to everyone (if escaping/shielding to use clunky heals are the designed way for Sorc to recover, it needs to be allowed the opportunity to do that, not just have every other class easily chase after it while maintaining full pressure or just straight up deleting shields as they are being cast).
- No infinite hard counters such as infinite roll dodges, perma blocking or perma uptime on unique and powerful hard counters such as wings. These counters should exist but should not be able to be permanently active.

Again, the original design of Sorc was that there should be windows to play, outplay and counterplay Sorc, but the vast majority of players of other classes don't want to see such balance, they just want a target dummy that sits there not fighting back, not healing up and not running away, while their class has everything and more.

The current state of Sorc is a direct result of all of the uninformed and biased complaints about the class over the last decade by players that never actually wanted proper balance, they just wanted free/easy kills, and for their class to have everything that every other class had but without any of the drawbacks that are supposed to be checks and balances to such unique mechanics.