Item Set Testing in Vengeance
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Erickson9610✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭BigPlays420 wrote: »BigPlays420 wrote: »Please, enough. The community is exhausted.
We don't want more Vengeance tests. We don't want our campaigns repeatedly shut down. We don't want to be forced into a ruleset that has consistently failed to retain players whenever alternatives exist.
Every single time we think we're finally done with Vengeance, it comes back again.
Just let it go. Please. Stop forcing this campaign on the PvP community and start listening to what your players have been saying for years. Enough is enough.
Since when does "listening to the players" fix fundamental performance issues?
Vengeance is the best chance the game has at having a performant and functional PVP experience.
The are two options:- Continued Vengeance development
- Nothing.
What do you want?
What I want is simple: I want my main campaign and preferred game mode to remain available while I continue supporting this game.
It is completely unacceptable to me, and to many other players, that we are still being subjected to mandated Vengeance tests after everything that happened last year.
If you want to continue experimenting with Vengeance, fine. Add whatever changes you want to it. But let us keep Gray Host as an option and let players decide for themselves where they want to play.
Instead of spending resources, which are now more limited than ever, on this poor excuse for a PvP campaign, spend them on improving and balancing the main campaign, which is currently more popular than it has been in over two years.
There are countless issues affecting Cyrodiil right now that could likely be addressed with relatively small amounts of attention: broken queues, faction imbalance, and long-standing PvP concerns that players have been discussing for years.
Many of us genuinely thought these forced Vengeance tests were finally behind us. Apparently, we were wrong.
There would be no point to running the tests at all if all of the people just kept playing Gray Host instead. There wouldn't be enough stress on the servers to properly test anything.
Like I mentioned above, Vengeance was never meant to be its own thing. It was meant to be an upgraded Gray Host, and this upcoming test that adds Item Sets to it is more proof that Vengeance is trying to become the new Gray Host, rather than its own thing.
If Vengeance wasn't meant to be Gray Host, then we wouldn't be having these mandated Vengeance tests to begin with; these features would just be added without testing, the same way Ravenwatch was updated.PC/NA — Lone Werewolf
Werewolf Should be Allowed to Sneak Prowling added in Update 50!
Please give us Werewolf Skill Styles (for customizing our fur color) Added in Update 50!, Grimoires/Scribing skills (to fill in the holes in our builds), and Companions (to transform with).1 -
Marto✭✭✭✭✭
✭BigPlays420 wrote: »What I want is simple: I want my main campaign and preferred game mode to remain available while I continue supporting this game.
Your main campaign and preferred game mode are a terrible experience and need to be improved. And this is the best that can be done to improve them. I'm sorry but that's just how it is. If there were better options, they would've been discovered during the countless 2019-2023 Cyrodiil tests.BigPlays420 wrote: »spend them on improving and balancing the main campaign
That is not on the list. And even if it was, option 1 (Continued Vengeance development) provides a far more balanced experience.
You want things to be balanced and tuned to have the correct PVP performance? That's Vengeance.BigPlays420 wrote: »There are countless issues affecting Cyrodiil right now that could likely be addressed with relatively small amounts of attention: broken queues, faction imbalance, and long-standing PvP concerns that players have been discussing for years.
That is also not on the list. And each time changes like these have been made, it led to performance being worse.Edited by Marto on 15 July 2026 22:51"According to the calculations of the sages of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, the batam guar is the cutest creature in all Tamriel"1 -
TheAwesomeChimpanzee✭✭✭✭✭BigPlays420 wrote: »What I want is simple: I want my main campaign and preferred game mode to remain available while I continue supporting this game.
Your main campaign and preferred game mode are a terrible experience and need to be improved. And this is the best that can be done to improve them. I'm sorry but that's just how it is. If there were better options, they would've been discovered during the countless 2019-2023 Cyrodiil tests.BigPlays420 wrote: »spend them on improving and balancing the main campaign
That is not on the list. And even if it was, option 1 (Continued Vengeance development) provides a far more balanced experience.
You want things to be balanced and tuned to have the correct PVP performance? That's Vengeance.BigPlays420 wrote: »There are countless issues affecting Cyrodiil right now that could likely be addressed with relatively small amounts of attention: broken queues, faction imbalance, and long-standing PvP concerns that players have been discussing for years.
That is also not on the list. And each time changes like these have been made, it led to performance being worse.
You do not get to decide which game mode is a "terrible experience" and which one isn't. The playerbase has already answered that question repeatedly.
Every single time players are given a choice, Gray Host and Blackreach become populated while Vengeance becomes nearly deserted. If Vengeance truly provided the superior and more balanced experience you claim it does, players would voluntarily play there. They don't.
People being forced into Vengeance when it is the only available option is not evidence that people want it. It simply proves that people want to play Cyrodiil and have no other choice.
Also, what exactly is this mysterious "list" you keep referring to? You do not dictate what is or is not on ZOS's internal priority list, and neither do I. ZOS has never publicly stated that queue issues, faction balance, or long-standing campaign concerns are somehow off the table.
The confidence with which you state personal opinions as undeniable facts is honestly impressive. Unfortunately, population numbers consistently contradict your entire argument.
The reality is simple: whenever players are allowed to vote with their feet, they overwhelmingly choose Gray Host over Vengeance. Ignoring years of observable player behavior to insist that Vengeance is somehow the superior experience is, frankly, absurd.TO THE PVP COMMUNITY: OUR ABSENCE IS FEEDBACK. DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE JULY 20TH VENGEANCE TESTS.6 -
alphatrazz✭✭Looks like they let the wrong people go. I jumped into Vengeance the other day and ran into a grand total of three and a half people. It’s mind-boggling that, with a reduced workforce, they still decided to spend more development time on this steaming pile of garbage. The only people who seem to enjoy Vengeance are the ones who play PvP twice a year during events. Rest of the year is looking up!4 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Erickson9610 wrote: »BigPlays420 wrote: »BigPlays420 wrote: »Please, enough. The community is exhausted.
We don't want more Vengeance tests. We don't want our campaigns repeatedly shut down. We don't want to be forced into a ruleset that has consistently failed to retain players whenever alternatives exist.
Every single time we think we're finally done with Vengeance, it comes back again.
Just let it go. Please. Stop forcing this campaign on the PvP community and start listening to what your players have been saying for years. Enough is enough.
Since when does "listening to the players" fix fundamental performance issues?
Vengeance is the best chance the game has at having a performant and functional PVP experience.
The are two options:- Continued Vengeance development
- Nothing.
What do you want?
What I want is simple: I want my main campaign and preferred game mode to remain available while I continue supporting this game.
It is completely unacceptable to me, and to many other players, that we are still being subjected to mandated Vengeance tests after everything that happened last year.
If you want to continue experimenting with Vengeance, fine. Add whatever changes you want to it. But let us keep Gray Host as an option and let players decide for themselves where they want to play.
Instead of spending resources, which are now more limited than ever, on this poor excuse for a PvP campaign, spend them on improving and balancing the main campaign, which is currently more popular than it has been in over two years.
There are countless issues affecting Cyrodiil right now that could likely be addressed with relatively small amounts of attention: broken queues, faction imbalance, and long-standing PvP concerns that players have been discussing for years.
Many of us genuinely thought these forced Vengeance tests were finally behind us. Apparently, we were wrong.
There would be no point to running the tests at all if all of the people just kept playing Gray Host instead. There wouldn't be enough stress on the servers to properly test anything.
Like I mentioned above, Vengeance was never meant to be its own thing. It was meant to be an upgraded Gray Host, and this upcoming test that adds Item Sets to it is more proof that Vengeance is trying to become the new Gray Host, rather than its own thing.
If Vengeance wasn't meant to be Gray Host, then we wouldn't be having these mandated Vengeance tests to begin with; these features would just be added without testing, the same way Ravenwatch was updated.
But again:
The. Players. Don't. Want. That.
This is the fallacy that keeps being repeated. It doesn't matter how performant it is, it doesn't matter how many sets they add, it doesn't matter how much they try to modify it. This is not what is wanted by the current community. The more resources they pour into this, the more it only serves to drive away the players they have in chase of a population that is not guaranteed.
If their goal is "we want to inspire more people to get into PvP," honestly the most important thing they could do is hard focus Class balance and the Refreshes.
None of these Vengeance tests beyond the first was able to peg at the desired 900+ players, and that's because there just aren't 900 concurrent players that are interested in that playstyle on any server. Vengeance has managed to get a dedicated base of players (not as small as the PvPers on the forums are talking about, but it still can't reliably make over 100 concurrent players per alliance) who are there because of one main reason: no proc sets and no gear farming.
That means that the idea of these tests is that the devs want to throw away their current Vengeance players in hopes of attracting a playerbase that has unequivocally rejected Vengeance. There's no other way to put it. They're hoping that the Vengeance players will stick around with sets when the whole reason they're in Vengeance is not having those sets, and they hope the Grey Host players will jump ship to Vengeance when they get their sets since they don't realize that theorycrafting is about more than just "proc set go brr" and the Grey Host players want their skills and not the Vengeance versions thereof. This is the thought process of someone who has zero clue about why players do what they do.6 -
Marto✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »BigPlays420 wrote: »What I want is simple: I want my main campaign and preferred game mode to remain available while I continue supporting this game.
Your main campaign and preferred game mode are a terrible experience and need to be improved. And this is the best that can be done to improve them. I'm sorry but that's just how it is. If there were better options, they would've been discovered during the countless 2019-2023 Cyrodiil tests.BigPlays420 wrote: »spend them on improving and balancing the main campaign
That is not on the list. And even if it was, option 1 (Continued Vengeance development) provides a far more balanced experience.
You want things to be balanced and tuned to have the correct PVP performance? That's Vengeance.BigPlays420 wrote: »There are countless issues affecting Cyrodiil right now that could likely be addressed with relatively small amounts of attention: broken queues, faction imbalance, and long-standing PvP concerns that players have been discussing for years.
That is also not on the list. And each time changes like these have been made, it led to performance being worse.
You do not get to decide which game mode is a "terrible experience" and which one isn't. The playerbase has already answered that question repeatedly.
Every single time players are given a choice, Gray Host and Blackreach become populated while Vengeance becomes nearly deserted. If Vengeance truly provided the superior and more balanced experience you claim it does, players would voluntarily play there. They don't.
People being forced into Vengeance when it is the only available option is not evidence that people want it. It simply proves that people want to play Cyrodiil and have no other choice.
Also, what exactly is this mysterious "list" you keep referring to? You do not dictate what is or is not on ZOS's internal priority list, and neither do I. ZOS has never publicly stated that queue issues, faction balance, or long-standing campaign concerns are somehow off the table.
The confidence with which you state personal opinions as undeniable facts is honestly impressive. Unfortunately, population numbers consistently contradict your entire argument.
The reality is simple: whenever players are allowed to vote with their feet, they overwhelmingly choose Gray Host over Vengeance. Ignoring years of observable player behavior to insist that Vengeance is somehow the superior experience is, frankly, absurd.
I never said these are my preferences, my wishes for PVP, or what I believe the devs should focus on.
I said these are the only realistic and reasonable options.
They spent over 5 years trying to fix the standard Cyrodiil experience, and it didn't work. They spent 2 years developing Vengeance and it works. Is it perfect? No. Is it better? In some ways, no. Does it work? Yes. And I'm sorry, but I'm going to go for the option that works. And it makes perfect sense that the devs do as well.BigPlays420 wrote: »You do not get to decide which game mode is a "terrible experience" and which one isn't. The playerbase has already answered that question repeatedly.
What about the people who are not part of the current PVP playerbase? The people who used to PVP for years before leaving? Or the countless players who try out Cyrodiil, realize it's a terrible experience, and leave?
Listening exclusively to what the PVP playerbase wants is a terrible idea becaise PVP is not meant for them. It's meant for all of us. It's meant to be a balanced, performant, and enjoyable experience for us all. Vengeance has the potential to be that, and standard Cyrodiil does not."According to the calculations of the sages of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, the batam guar is the cutest creature in all Tamriel"5 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hello All,
As part of our ongoing PvP work in ESO, we will be testing the addition of Item Sets in the Vengeance campaign next week. For this test, most Item Set "final bonuses" will be active as we look at server performance. This includes Mythics, Monster masks and shoulders, and five- or three-piece set "final bonuses." Other stats from Item Set bonuses will not be active during this test, even though the UI displays them as enabled.
Some sets are currently not providing bonuses, and this is a known issue, though the majority are.
With this test, both the Gray Host and Blackreach Cyrodiil campaigns will be closed from July 20th to July 27th, unless it is determined that we need to turn them back on due to performance issues in Vengeance.
As always, please let us know your thoughts and feedback during the testing period.
Please don't force this on us. Please.
If this goes forward it just means I won't have any reason to log on next week. Most of the PvP community feels the same. Attempting to force vengeance down our throats is inappropriate in the extreme, not to mention insulting and contrary to previous commitments ZOS has made to the customer base.
Please, DO NOT force vengeance on us yet again.7 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭✭TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »BigPlays420 wrote: »What I want is simple: I want my main campaign and preferred game mode to remain available while I continue supporting this game.
Your main campaign and preferred game mode are a terrible experience and need to be improved. And this is the best that can be done to improve them. I'm sorry but that's just how it is. If there were better options, they would've been discovered during the countless 2019-2023 Cyrodiil tests.BigPlays420 wrote: »spend them on improving and balancing the main campaign
That is not on the list. And even if it was, option 1 (Continued Vengeance development) provides a far more balanced experience.
You want things to be balanced and tuned to have the correct PVP performance? That's Vengeance.BigPlays420 wrote: »There are countless issues affecting Cyrodiil right now that could likely be addressed with relatively small amounts of attention: broken queues, faction imbalance, and long-standing PvP concerns that players have been discussing for years.
That is also not on the list. And each time changes like these have been made, it led to performance being worse.
You do not get to decide which game mode is a "terrible experience" and which one isn't. The playerbase has already answered that question repeatedly.
Every single time players are given a choice, Gray Host and Blackreach become populated while Vengeance becomes nearly deserted. If Vengeance truly provided the superior and more balanced experience you claim it does, players would voluntarily play there. They don't.
People being forced into Vengeance when it is the only available option is not evidence that people want it. It simply proves that people want to play Cyrodiil and have no other choice.
Also, what exactly is this mysterious "list" you keep referring to? You do not dictate what is or is not on ZOS's internal priority list, and neither do I. ZOS has never publicly stated that queue issues, faction balance, or long-standing campaign concerns are somehow off the table.
The confidence with which you state personal opinions as undeniable facts is honestly impressive. Unfortunately, population numbers consistently contradict your entire argument.
The reality is simple: whenever players are allowed to vote with their feet, they overwhelmingly choose Gray Host over Vengeance. Ignoring years of observable player behavior to insist that Vengeance is somehow the superior experience is, frankly, absurd.
I never said these are my preferences, my wishes for PVP, or what I believe the devs should focus on.
I said these are the only realistic and reasonable options.
They spent over 5 years trying to fix the standard Cyrodiil experience, and it didn't work. They spent 2 years developing Vengeance and it works. Is it perfect? No. Is it better? In some ways, no. Does it work? Yes. And I'm sorry, but I'm going to go for the option that works. And it makes perfect sense that the devs do as well.BigPlays420 wrote: »You do not get to decide which game mode is a "terrible experience" and which one isn't. The playerbase has already answered that question repeatedly.
What about the people who are not part of the current PVP playerbase? The people who used to PVP for years before leaving? Or the countless players who try out Cyrodiil, realize it's a terrible experience, and leave?
Listening exclusively to what the PVP playerbase wants is a terrible idea becaise PVP is not meant for them. It's meant for all of us. It's meant to be a balanced, performant, and enjoyable experience for us all. Vengeance has the potential to be that, and standard Cyrodiil does not.
Here comes the second guy of 5 who plays vengeance and thinks the entire population should kowtow to them. We don't like vengeance bud. Keep your vengeance over there and stop having it impact what the VAST majority of people actually want to play. If you wanna do testing, go test it between the 5 of you.6 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Indeed, there is a reason Vengeance is mostly dead when all three campaigns are active. I understand fully that Vengeance can't pull in enough people for a proper "test" without taking drastic measures like shutting down the other campaigns. It doesn't make what they're doing any less frustrating for those that want nothing to do with Vengeance.Erickson9610 wrote: »Consider that Vengeance is mostly dead when the population is split between three campaigns. Focusing people into one campaign ensures there is enough population to properly test these changes.
The fact that they have to force us into vengeance is the proof they should stop investing into it in the first place.
This is becoming insulting. Can we believe anything ZOS says at this point? ZOS pledged that we wouldn't be forced to play vengeance in the future.10 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »Erickson9610 wrote: »It's fine to test these changes if one wants to volunteer for it, but why remove Greyhost and Blackreach? There are people that don't want to be part of this "test" or want to participate in Vengeance. You're only inconveniencing them by removing their preferred play mode.
Consider that Vengeance is mostly dead when the population is split between three campaigns. Focusing people into one campaign ensures there is enough population to properly test these changes.
Further, there are always people playing Vengeance when it's the only campaign. Despite all of the people complaining about it, it's still an active campaign during these tests.
Hopefully when Crossplay is implemented, the higher population caps of Vengeance is able to support all of the players from every platform in Cyrodiil at the same time, without fragmenting the playerbase. I think that's what these Vengeance tests are for — making something as similar to Grey Host as possible, but with a higher population cap.
Of course it's active DURING THE TESTS, no other camp exists to play in. What a nonsensical point. Imagine if there were 30 gyms in your city and the decided to close 29 of them, and the least populated gym now all of a sudden had population. Nonsense. Yes, you can get more population in them by closing the camps so you can actually test things, but they have already tested and heard the player bases opinions, they are willing to sacrifice performance for something better than vengeance, there is no reason to shut down what people actually want to do more testing for something people don't want.
Let those who want to play vengeance test vengeance. The rest of us shouldn't have to deal with it, and most of us won't. I will never set foot in vengeance again under any circumstances.6 -
Kickimanjaro✭✭✭✭Thanks, but no thanks.
I'd like clarification on just what ZOS intends for Vengeance to be because it seems to have changed from a test to understand performance issues with combat in Cyrodiil to a completely new (but incomplete) game mode.
I previously shared that what I enjoy about ESO customizations (or play your way, whatever we wanna call it) is the item sets. I like planning out what bonuses I can bring for myself and for the group, and I like thinking about the entire system of buffs that a group can achieve. I previously lamented, too, that one of my core issues with Vengeance was that knowledge gained in this new (incomplete) mode was not applicable to the rest of the game. I appreciate that this may be a step towards parity of knowledge between the different combat systems, but I will not be participating until I understand what that participation will contribute towards.good thoughts, good words, good actions2 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »Why do we keep closing the campaigns people actually play in for a mode that far less people play? If you want to keep vengeance open and waste resources on a mode nobody plays, sure have your way, but why the constant closing of the actual populated camps in favor of it? It's no wonder so many people got laid off when decisions like these are being made. There is just zero logic at all in these decisions, do better.
This is totally baffling in terms of business acumen, that's for sure.7 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭.BigPlays420 wrote: »Please, enough. The community is exhausted.
We don't want more Vengeance tests. We don't want our campaigns repeatedly shut down. We don't want to be forced into a ruleset that has consistently failed to retain players whenever alternatives exist.
Every single time we think we're finally done with Vengeance, it comes back again.
Just let it go. Please. Stop forcing this campaign on the PvP community and start listening to what your players have been saying for years. Enough is enough.
Since when does "listening to the players" fix fundamental performance issues?
Vengeance is the best chance the game has at having a performant and functional PVP experience.
The are two options:- Continued Vengeance development
- Nothing.
What do you want?
This is patently false. ZOS told us for a decade they were working on fixing performance in Grey Host. That's what they're obligated to do, and not just because that's what they said they were doing for a decade.5 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Erickson9610 wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Why are we doing this again?
To make Vengeance as appealing to Gray Host players as possible. Eventually Vengeance will be nearly identical to Gray Host but with better performance under the hood.
No, it wont. Not ever.
If ZOS can't fix normal live GH then they can't make vengeance work properly either.6 -
Erickson9610✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Erickson9610 wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Why are we doing this again?
To make Vengeance as appealing to Gray Host players as possible. Eventually Vengeance will be nearly identical to Gray Host but with better performance under the hood.
No, it wont. Not ever.
If ZOS can't fix normal live GH then they can't make vengeance work properly either.
Vengeance is already working properly, though. It has the target population cap. Now ZOS is making it more and more like Gray Host by adding the features from it (like Item Sets) that Gray Host players want to see in Cyrodiil.
If the test goes well, then Vengeance is one step closer to being something Gray Host players would actually want to play. We see some players in this thread in approval of Item Sets being added to Vengeance, even.
If the test doesn't go well, then we'll see what compromise that entails. Maybe that means Item Sets get Vengeance-only set bonus counterparts, the way skills in Vengeance are counterparts of the original skills. In other words, more performant Item Sets to go alongside more performant skills.
What is clear, is that certain beloved elements of Gray Host, such as the unrestricted target cap, cannot exist if we want a Cyrodiil campaign to have this heightened population cap. That was previously tested.Edited by Erickson9610 on 15 July 2026 23:54PC/NA — Lone Werewolf
Werewolf Should be Allowed to Sneak Prowling added in Update 50!
Please give us Werewolf Skill Styles (for customizing our fur color) Added in Update 50!, Grimoires/Scribing skills (to fill in the holes in our builds), and Companions (to transform with).4 -
Flangdoodle✭✭✭I'm actually OK with this.
I thought that the whole purpose of Vengeance was to test the lag by stripping everything down and then slowly adding it back until they found the breaking point, wasn't it?
As long as it's a test and doesn't become permanent, it's a net positive.
The real shock was making Vengeance THE ONLY permanent campaign other than Gray Host. Shutting down all other campaigns completely blew up the already broken queue for GH.4 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Erickson9610 wrote: »Erickson9610 wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Why are we doing this again?
To make Vengeance as appealing to Gray Host players as possible. Eventually Vengeance will be nearly identical to Gray Host but with better performance under the hood.
No, it wont. Not ever.
If ZOS can't fix normal live GH then they can't make vengeance work properly either.
Vengeance is already working properly, though. It has the target population cap. Now ZOS is making it more and more like Gray Host by adding the features from it (like Item Sets) that Gray Host players want to see in Cyrodiil.
If the test goes well, then Vengeance is one step closer to being something Gray Host players would actually want to play. We see some players in this thread in approval of Item Sets being added to Vengeance, even.
If the test doesn't go well, then we'll see what compromise that entails. Maybe that means Item Sets get Vengeance-only set bonus counterparts, the way skills in Vengeance are counterparts of the original skills. In other words, more performant Item Sets to go alongside more performant skills.
What is clear, is that certain beloved elements of Gray Host, such as the unrestricted target cap, cannot exist if we want a Cyrodiil campaign to have this heightened population cap. That was previously tested.
ZOS told us vengeance was a test to learn how to fix performance in Grey Host. Now we know that vengeance was never a test. There is no reason any of us who will never play vengeance should have to put up with being treated this disrespectfully. Vengeance is a fail by every measure. I'll think about helping ZOS test something again as soon as they actually improve performance in GH, which is what they said vengeance was created to do.
I'm done being punked. No more vengeance for me, not ever again, ever. Most of the PvP community feels the same way. You can expect next week's forced vengeance to have the lowest population of any forced vengeance instance since it's inception.6 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »I thought that one of the benefits of Vengeance was that item sets were not there.
The people who prefer Vengeance are not playing it because they like area abilities having caps of 3. They like not having to deal with proc sets that make ball groups effectively immortal.
Who is this for? The people who want their sets don’t want effect caps. The people who want everyone on one playing field don’t want others carried by sets.
This really sounds like a way to deter both Cyrodiil populations more than anything else.
This. If Items sets move forward as a part of Vengeance than I won't be using it again for the same reason nobody bothered with Ravenwatch. If I have to deal with item sets than I want all the tools to deal with them too such as CP.
I can't see anyone wanting to work to farm a set so they can't use it's stats.
People who hate Vengeance are never going to play it and salivate at any and all bad news about it. You're never going to get them
People who enjoy building characters are not going to go over there because who wants to play a game mode where it's just the same building mode but worse?
The only people playing Vengeance right now are the ones that like that it doesn't have things like sets.
Can't think of a greater disconnect between how players see the modes and devs than this.
Edited by spartaxoxo on 16 July 2026 00:1712 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭i think im actually in the boat of preferring set bonuses remain off completely in vengeance lol
trying to work on veteracy, ive been regularly playing in either vengeance or "normal" cyro (GH when it has no queue, or blackreach when its not dead) and overall i have to say that vengeance is definitely much better to play in without all the set bonuses cause everything actually feels balanced there
i dont want to bring the toxic gameplay that normal cyro has (my definition of toxic gameplay is: ball groups, gankers, bombers, and everyone being virtually unkillable unless zerged with an overwhelming force)
theres been a few times ive been in GH/BR and the toxic gameplay just frustrated me so much i rather go and play in vengeance
the only thing vengeance really needs right now is speed boost for mounted travel and maybe more perk options
whats the point of standardizing everyones stats when people are just gonna run ROA+VD all the time, or it will turn into another DOT meta (sheer venom/savage ww)plays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (fully filled out with current game), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
in progress: acquiring mundus stones (currently only have the thief)
feel free to stop by and use the facilities5 -
Prism_ADC✭✭Will there be double ap for this test?Pain is nothing but an infinite enemy upon my conscience
The Legend of Täsyä0 -
Erickson9610✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Erickson9610 wrote: »Erickson9610 wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Why are we doing this again?
To make Vengeance as appealing to Gray Host players as possible. Eventually Vengeance will be nearly identical to Gray Host but with better performance under the hood.
No, it wont. Not ever.
If ZOS can't fix normal live GH then they can't make vengeance work properly either.
Vengeance is already working properly, though. It has the target population cap. Now ZOS is making it more and more like Gray Host by adding the features from it (like Item Sets) that Gray Host players want to see in Cyrodiil.
If the test goes well, then Vengeance is one step closer to being something Gray Host players would actually want to play. We see some players in this thread in approval of Item Sets being added to Vengeance, even.
If the test doesn't go well, then we'll see what compromise that entails. Maybe that means Item Sets get Vengeance-only set bonus counterparts, the way skills in Vengeance are counterparts of the original skills. In other words, more performant Item Sets to go alongside more performant skills.
What is clear, is that certain beloved elements of Gray Host, such as the unrestricted target cap, cannot exist if we want a Cyrodiil campaign to have this heightened population cap. That was previously tested.
ZOS told us vengeance was a test to learn how to fix performance in Grey Host. Now we know that vengeance was never a test. There is no reason any of us who will never play vengeance should have to put up with being treated this disrespectfully. Vengeance is a fail by every measure. I'll think about helping ZOS test something again as soon as they actually improve performance in GH, which is what they said vengeance was created to do.
I'm done being punked. No more vengeance for me, not ever again, ever. Most of the PvP community feels the same way. You can expect next week's forced vengeance to have the lowest population of any forced vengeance instance since it's inception.
I think people are looking at the Vengeance testing wrong. You can go to Bethesda's Twitch channel and see that someone recently made a clip of ZOS claiming Vengeance was just a test, presumably to mock the notion.
Yes, Vengeance was just a test.
It's a test to see if it was even possible to have a heightened population cap. The test went well and we know it's possible. ZOS continues to develop Vengeance — they're not going back on their word of the first Vengeance campaign being just a test by doing so, because that Vengeance campaign wasn't feature complete and thus was just a test.
Simply put, ZOS is trying to improve Gray Host... by rewriting it from scratch with Vengeance. Vengeance is meant to be Gray Host but optimized and future-proofed.
Vengeance is currently unfinished. We lack several skill lines (like Werewolf/Vampire, Racial, and others) and Item Set functionality. This next test is to see if Item Sets can be added while maintaining this population cap. When Vengeance is finally finished, it will be a completely revamped Cyrodiil experience. This doesn't make the first Vengeance any less of a test.
Again, it doesn't matter if Gray Host players hate Vengeance and Vengeance players hate Gray Host — the goal is to make a new, optimized Cyrodiil experience. Vengeance isn't going away, because ZOS actually wants to improve PvP in this game, and their approach is to not waste their time like they did with the Ravenwatch tests and instead start with a functional product (Vengeance) and iterate on it until it's feature complete.
As for the Vengeance-only "roles", I presume this is the answer to complaints about builds being able to do everything — massive healing, damage, and tankiness all in one — by more clearly separating possible builds into one of these categories. Similarly, the PvP-only versions of skills found in Vengeance are the answer to complaints about PvE balancing affecting PvP, and vice versa.
It sucks to have to learn that your skills work differently in PvP (just look at the Werewolf skill line with Savage Cruelty, Werewolf Berserker, and Bloodclaws and how each is different with Battle Spirit applied) but other MMOs take a similar approach to separating PvP and PvE balancing.PC/NA — Lone Werewolf
Werewolf Should be Allowed to Sneak Prowling added in Update 50!
Please give us Werewolf Skill Styles (for customizing our fur color) Added in Update 50!, Grimoires/Scribing skills (to fill in the holes in our builds), and Companions (to transform with).7 -
Marto✭✭✭✭✭
✭Erickson9610 wrote: »Erickson9610 wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Why are we doing this again?
To make Vengeance as appealing to Gray Host players as possible. Eventually Vengeance will be nearly identical to Gray Host but with better performance under the hood.
No, it wont. Not ever.
If ZOS can't fix normal live GH then they can't make vengeance work properly either.
Vengeance is already working properly, though. It has the target population cap. Now ZOS is making it more and more like Gray Host by adding the features from it (like Item Sets) that Gray Host players want to see in Cyrodiil.
If the test goes well, then Vengeance is one step closer to being something Gray Host players would actually want to play. We see some players in this thread in approval of Item Sets being added to Vengeance, even.
If the test doesn't go well, then we'll see what compromise that entails. Maybe that means Item Sets get Vengeance-only set bonus counterparts, the way skills in Vengeance are counterparts of the original skills. In other words, more performant Item Sets to go alongside more performant skills.
What is clear, is that certain beloved elements of Gray Host, such as the unrestricted target cap, cannot exist if we want a Cyrodiil campaign to have this heightened population cap. That was previously tested.
ZOS told us vengeance was a test to learn how to fix performance in Grey Host. Now we know that vengeance was never a test. There is no reason any of us who will never play vengeance should have to put up with being treated this disrespectfully. Vengeance is a fail by every measure. I'll think about helping ZOS test something again as soon as they actually improve performance in GH, which is what they said vengeance was created to do.
I'm done being punked. No more vengeance for me, not ever again, ever. Most of the PvP community feels the same way. You can expect next week's forced vengeance to have the lowest population of any forced vengeance instance since it's inception.
I am baffled that players, upon testing a new PVP ruleset, somehow came to the conclusion that its purpose wasn't to test a new PVP ruleset.
When there's a new item set in the PTS, do you think they're actually testing a different item? When there's a new quest being tested, do you interpret that as a hidden way to test changes to a different zone's quest?
When a restaurant tells you they're testing a new sauce for their fries, do you think they're doing that to improve the quality of their soda?
It was obvious to anyone who knows how to read that the purpose of the Vengeance tests was to test Vengeance.Edited by Marto on 16 July 2026 00:53"According to the calculations of the sages of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, the batam guar is the cutest creature in all Tamriel"6 -
CatalinaWineMixer2✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »BigPlays420 wrote: »What I want is simple: I want my main campaign and preferred game mode to remain available while I continue supporting this game.
Your main campaign and preferred game mode are a terrible experience and need to be improved. And this is the best that can be done to improve them. I'm sorry but that's just how it is. If there were better options, they would've been discovered during the countless 2019-2023 Cyrodiil tests.BigPlays420 wrote: »spend them on improving and balancing the main campaign
That is not on the list. And even if it was, option 1 (Continued Vengeance development) provides a far more balanced experience.
You want things to be balanced and tuned to have the correct PVP performance? That's Vengeance.BigPlays420 wrote: »There are countless issues affecting Cyrodiil right now that could likely be addressed with relatively small amounts of attention: broken queues, faction imbalance, and long-standing PvP concerns that players have been discussing for years.
That is also not on the list. And each time changes like these have been made, it led to performance being worse.
You do not get to decide which game mode is a "terrible experience" and which one isn't. The playerbase has already answered that question repeatedly.
Every single time players are given a choice, Gray Host and Blackreach become populated while Vengeance becomes nearly deserted. If Vengeance truly provided the superior and more balanced experience you claim it does, players would voluntarily play there. They don't.
People being forced into Vengeance when it is the only available option is not evidence that people want it. It simply proves that people want to play Cyrodiil and have no other choice.
Also, what exactly is this mysterious "list" you keep referring to? You do not dictate what is or is not on ZOS's internal priority list, and neither do I. ZOS has never publicly stated that queue issues, faction balance, or long-standing campaign concerns are somehow off the table.
The confidence with which you state personal opinions as undeniable facts is honestly impressive. Unfortunately, population numbers consistently contradict your entire argument.
The reality is simple: whenever players are allowed to vote with their feet, they overwhelmingly choose Gray Host over Vengeance. Ignoring years of observable player behavior to insist that Vengeance is somehow the superior experience is, frankly, absurd.
I never said these are my preferences, my wishes for PVP, or what I believe the devs should focus on.
I said these are the only realistic and reasonable options.
They spent over 5 years trying to fix the standard Cyrodiil experience, and it didn't work. They spent 2 years developing Vengeance and it works. Is it perfect? No. Is it better? In some ways, no. Does it work? Yes. And I'm sorry, but I'm going to go for the option that works. And it makes perfect sense that the devs do as well.BigPlays420 wrote: »You do not get to decide which game mode is a "terrible experience" and which one isn't. The playerbase has already answered that question repeatedly.
What about the people who are not part of the current PVP playerbase? The people who used to PVP for years before leaving? Or the countless players who try out Cyrodiil, realize it's a terrible experience, and leave?
Listening exclusively to what the PVP playerbase wants is a terrible idea becaise PVP is not meant for them. It's meant for all of us. It's meant to be a balanced, performant, and enjoyable experience for us all. Vengeance has the potential to be that, and standard Cyrodiil does not.
Here comes the second guy of 5 who plays vengeance and thinks the entire population should kowtow to them. We don't like vengeance bud. Keep your vengeance over there and stop having it impact what the VAST majority of people actually want to play. If you wanna do testing, go test it between the 5 of you.
Here's the problem, everyone is tired of 11 years of nerfs brought to you by GH. Im one of them. Un nerf my Warden. And stop calling for nerfs to everything that can kill you. More people will engage in PvP if they stop catering to GH. It's a broken record playing the same old song, "Nerf THEM! Just not ME" And it needs to stop. Ive 12 Guilds most of which are a husk of them former selves that everyone saying things like this quit BG, IC and GH over. I dont think you're in the majority, but I think we are going to find out. And everyone who has said they don't and won't play Vengeance should not have any say whatsoever about its future.2 -
Stamicka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I would be happy about this test if there were only Vengeance specific pure stat based sets to choose from while in the campaign. Implementing like this is extremely problematic though...
I understand the logic behind this test. The results will tell you guys how much item sets are impacting performance. That will be very useful information now that you've established a baseline with Vengeance. Ideally this never becomes more than a test as that would make Vengeance the worst of both worlds.
Going forward with this long term will basically make most of Grey Host's balance issues come to Vengeance. This pretty much makes me lose interest in it. Vengeance was a chance to implement more balanced ESO Classic like PvP in addition to the performance improvements. It also was a chance to address PvP's accessibility issues and separate it from PvE.
Vengeance was missing the mark when it came to appealing to the usual PvP crowd, but I think that could've been fixed with a few more additions and improvements. The idea that it could never be appealing to existing PvPers was ridiculous. Adding the entire roster of sets is not the way though. The usual PvP crowd will still have no interest and the crowd that actually likes Vengeance will leave. So Vengeance will appeal to absolutely no one.
Please keep this as a test and consider adding simple stat based Vengeance specific sets... that's all I have to say.Edited by Stamicka on 16 July 2026 01:12PC NA and Xbox NA5 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Erickson9610 wrote: »Erickson9610 wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Why are we doing this again?
To make Vengeance as appealing to Gray Host players as possible. Eventually Vengeance will be nearly identical to Gray Host but with better performance under the hood.
No, it wont. Not ever.
If ZOS can't fix normal live GH then they can't make vengeance work properly either.
Vengeance is already working properly, though. It has the target population cap. Now ZOS is making it more and more like Gray Host by adding the features from it (like Item Sets) that Gray Host players want to see in Cyrodiil.
If the test goes well, then Vengeance is one step closer to being something Gray Host players would actually want to play. We see some players in this thread in approval of Item Sets being added to Vengeance, even.
If the test doesn't go well, then we'll see what compromise that entails. Maybe that means Item Sets get Vengeance-only set bonus counterparts, the way skills in Vengeance are counterparts of the original skills. In other words, more performant Item Sets to go alongside more performant skills.
What is clear, is that certain beloved elements of Gray Host, such as the unrestricted target cap, cannot exist if we want a Cyrodiil campaign to have this heightened population cap. That was previously tested.
ZOS told us vengeance was a test to learn how to fix performance in Grey Host. Now we know that vengeance was never a test. There is no reason any of us who will never play vengeance should have to put up with being treated this disrespectfully. Vengeance is a fail by every measure. I'll think about helping ZOS test something again as soon as they actually improve performance in GH, which is what they said vengeance was created to do.
I'm done being punked. No more vengeance for me, not ever again, ever. Most of the PvP community feels the same way. You can expect next week's forced vengeance to have the lowest population of any forced vengeance instance since it's inception.
I am baffled that players, upon testing a new PVP ruleset, somehow came to the conclusion that its purpose wasn't to test a new PVP ruleset.
When there's a new item set in the PTS, do you think they're actually testing a different item? When there's a new quest being tested, do you interpret that as a hidden way to test changes to a different zone's quest?
When a restaurant tells you they're testing a new sauce for their fries, do you think they're doing that to improve the quality of their soda?
It was obvious to anyone who knows how to read that the purpose of the Vengeance tests was to test Vengeance.
No.
ZOS sold vengeance as a test to learn how to improve performance in Grey Host. This is what ZOS said the purpose of vengeance was at it's inception. This is how they tricked the PvP community into helping develop vengeance. Going forward I have no intention of helping ZOS take away the game mode I log in to play.
And since I will never play vengeance for any reason ever again, at least not until I see first hand how ZOS has used data gained from vengeance to improve GH like they said they were doing. There is no reason that I or anyone else should be forced to play vengeance. It's akin to forcing all PvE zones to have PvP enabled for a week and ignoring all the complaints doing such a thing would legitimately generate.
I will not help ZOS test a game mode I didn't buy and will never play.
Edited by reazea on 16 July 2026 01:327 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »BigPlays420 wrote: »What I want is simple: I want my main campaign and preferred game mode to remain available while I continue supporting this game.
Your main campaign and preferred game mode are a terrible experience and need to be improved. And this is the best that can be done to improve them. I'm sorry but that's just how it is. If there were better options, they would've been discovered during the countless 2019-2023 Cyrodiil tests.BigPlays420 wrote: »spend them on improving and balancing the main campaign
That is not on the list. And even if it was, option 1 (Continued Vengeance development) provides a far more balanced experience.
You want things to be balanced and tuned to have the correct PVP performance? That's Vengeance.BigPlays420 wrote: »There are countless issues affecting Cyrodiil right now that could likely be addressed with relatively small amounts of attention: broken queues, faction imbalance, and long-standing PvP concerns that players have been discussing for years.
That is also not on the list. And each time changes like these have been made, it led to performance being worse.
You do not get to decide which game mode is a "terrible experience" and which one isn't. The playerbase has already answered that question repeatedly.
Every single time players are given a choice, Gray Host and Blackreach become populated while Vengeance becomes nearly deserted. If Vengeance truly provided the superior and more balanced experience you claim it does, players would voluntarily play there. They don't.
People being forced into Vengeance when it is the only available option is not evidence that people want it. It simply proves that people want to play Cyrodiil and have no other choice.
Also, what exactly is this mysterious "list" you keep referring to? You do not dictate what is or is not on ZOS's internal priority list, and neither do I. ZOS has never publicly stated that queue issues, faction balance, or long-standing campaign concerns are somehow off the table.
The confidence with which you state personal opinions as undeniable facts is honestly impressive. Unfortunately, population numbers consistently contradict your entire argument.
The reality is simple: whenever players are allowed to vote with their feet, they overwhelmingly choose Gray Host over Vengeance. Ignoring years of observable player behavior to insist that Vengeance is somehow the superior experience is, frankly, absurd.
I never said these are my preferences, my wishes for PVP, or what I believe the devs should focus on.
I said these are the only realistic and reasonable options.
They spent over 5 years trying to fix the standard Cyrodiil experience, and it didn't work. They spent 2 years developing Vengeance and it works. Is it perfect? No. Is it better? In some ways, no. Does it work? Yes. And I'm sorry, but I'm going to go for the option that works. And it makes perfect sense that the devs do as well.BigPlays420 wrote: »You do not get to decide which game mode is a "terrible experience" and which one isn't. The playerbase has already answered that question repeatedly.
What about the people who are not part of the current PVP playerbase? The people who used to PVP for years before leaving? Or the countless players who try out Cyrodiil, realize it's a terrible experience, and leave?
Listening exclusively to what the PVP playerbase wants is a terrible idea becaise PVP is not meant for them. It's meant for all of us. It's meant to be a balanced, performant, and enjoyable experience for us all. Vengeance has the potential to be that, and standard Cyrodiil does not.
Here comes the second guy of 5 who plays vengeance and thinks the entire population should kowtow to them. We don't like vengeance bud. Keep your vengeance over there and stop having it impact what the VAST majority of people actually want to play. If you wanna do testing, go test it between the 5 of you.
Here's the problem, everyone is tired of 11 years of nerfs brought to you by GH. Im one of them. Un nerf my Warden. And stop calling for nerfs to everything that can kill you. More people will engage in PvP if they stop catering to GH. It's a broken record playing the same old song, "Nerf THEM! Just not ME" And it needs to stop. Ive 12 Guilds most of which are a husk of them former selves that everyone saying things like this quit BG, IC and GH over. I dont think you're in the majority, but I think we are going to find out. And everyone who has said they don't and won't play Vengeance should not have any say whatsoever about its future.
No set was ever nerfed because it was abused in PvP. Sets get nerfed because they are OP in every environment. Stop being upset with the PvP community for mistakes made by ZOS.
Nobody in this thread has said vengeance shouldn't exist. We've said we shouldn't be forced to play vengeance, and we won't be strong armed into activities we don't enjoy.
Edited by reazea on 16 July 2026 01:236 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Are yall REALLY this tone deaf???
STOP DOING THIS
ENOUGH!Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...6 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It makes no sense, Vengeance is DEAD. Greyhost isnt, stop forcing this on us!Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...8 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »It makes no sense, Vengeance is DEAD. Greyhost isnt, stop forcing this on us!
This incident has made me worry that ZOS plans on shutting down GH forever. I can see no other reason for taking this course at this time.
@Marto Check Bardok's signature.
Edited by reazea on 16 July 2026 01:387
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CtjhWhw2I8