U50 Feedback Thread for Vengeance Campaign

Demonwolff · May 11

Lets get to it.

Full disclosure I am not a supporter of Vengeance as it stands currently as I truly believe it is destroying the identity of the game. That being said I have been attempting to give it a fair shake and understand why it COULD be good for PVP in ESO in the right format.

First lets talk about the Idea of adding 4 roles and having a skill line for each. While this seems unique and interesting on the surface, the abilities attached to some of these lines are problematic and NOT in a small way.
Pain Point: Not enough burst damage to put away players. So you add 2 massive shields that can be triggered by multiple people in multiple roles......
Pain point: No resource management. So you add a Heal absorb that also increases Dodge Roll cost. Do you see the correlation here.
Add to this you have locked the perks behind a Veterancy wall, once again limiting how we can express our independent play styles and builds and you have created a disaster waiting to happen.
Those are just three of the problematic abilities Silence/stun, Disorient the list goes on. Simply look at abilities that say can not be blocked dodged or mitigated.

Class refresh, While not completely tied to Vengeance, there is a portion of this that translates, By releasing one refresh at a time you create a power vacuum. At present DK even in Vengeance is far more powerful than the remainder of the classes.
And Mastery lines will not do enough to rectify this.

Please do not misunderstand me, I appreciate the fact that there is a concerted effort going into PVP and that you seem to be listening to the player base. It still feels as though the PVP veterans the ones that have the knowledge lived the issues of the past are being brushed off. ( I do not fall into that category but know many that do and have voiced concerns) I'm still relatively new to ESO in terms of the game being around but even I see issues here.

Instead of adding more broken things lets address the issues that are wanted by the players.
More agency within the classes. Let US pick our Morphs for abilities
More Counterplay options. Some form of Expedition to allow for outnumbered fights, better recovery options
Slightly adjusted damage totals or lowering of Health to 50k
Take the Perk system and rework it, because honestly most of them are terrible and the ones that aren't are still locked behind a wall with Veterancy. I mean most PVP players are not going to give up Crit Dmg for Crit chance that's counter intuitive.
I also see Population issues popping up during the week. And early morning weekends. I see 100s of one alliance roaming the lands while the others cant muster a grp due to time or alliance preferences. A soft cap on numbers would help I.E. 50/20/20 until the numbers get within a % and so on at each level, so that one faction can not dominate the map unfairly. (just an example the numbers could be much higher but the point stands).
With that said lets look at the Idea that there will only be 2 options for Que. I see that being a disaster as you try to force people into Vengeance and they just completely abandon Cyrodiil because they cant play due to being locked out or committed to one faction. This is something to consider moving forward.
Its ok to get it wrong and have to take a step back and revisit an idea instead of doubling down on something that is likely to blow up on you.

Again Please realize I and many others do appreciate the work you are putting in to PVP we are a very passionate Community and we all LOVE this game.

@ZOS_Kevin
@Zos_BrianWheeler

xylena · May 11

React wrote: »

Vanguard Ultimate - Demoralizing Disruption - A four second stun and negate on a single target.

Soldier Skill - Battle Trauma This skill applies 11.5k healing absorption and increases your targets roll dodge cost by 33% for 6 seconds.

Yeah this is horrible game design, "haha screw you in particular" single target debuffs that fail to move the needle in large scale, inevitably used solely for griefing individuals.

Remember resource poisons and how much everyone hated those? Or the original Soldier of Anguish proc set? Or the version of Incap that was going to inflict a 3sec silence?

These were all bad idea bandaids trying to solve various problems wrought by extreme degenerate minmaxing, which Vengeance already solves, so it's double pointless and insulting.

Erickson9610 · May 11

Please add Werewolf (and Vampire) to Vengeance. I appreciate these new skill lines created just for Vengeance, but I feel that Werewolf and Vampire should've been given priority, as they are aspects of our characters that aren't represented here. I primarily play Werewolf in all content, so I don't think I'll spend much time in Vengeance if I don't get to play Werewolf there as well.

ceruulean · May 16

I was watching the video "Design in Detail" where a Halo game dev named Jaime Greisemer goes through the balancing philosophy. Basically, more roles that are unique are good. Vengeance has tank/healer/brawler/glass cannon with the current loadouts.

He also mentions that if you do a balance pass and remove roles that are clearly inferior, you also need to remove the counters to them. So if tanks are removed from a game, then anti-tank weapons should be removed, otherwise there will be useless weapons that don't achieve anything.

Also, Greisemer mentioned "no crappy sniper rifles." So there shouldn't be skills that are just inferior versions of an existing skill, but skills that actually fulfill a unique function. Otherwise we end up with strict dominance where players 99% of the time pick the clearly superior option. I'll point out skills that seem like inferior version of existing skills.

Since the new skills are meant to counter something, I am going to guess what they are countering.

Soldier - role is brawler with balanced offense and defense

Detonating Strike - meant to provide a "turn and burn" skill where you save ult and play defensively until you can strike at the best moment. Seems too clunky to use for an ultimate. Maybe someone will make it work.
Sweeping Assault - AoE execute that is meant to punish multiple opponents who don't keep their HP above 50%. I don't really know if this is useful. It only kills newbies. Newbie players are already punished for failing to stay above 50%, we don't need more negative feedback loops. Also, this is an inferior mag version of Whirlwind. It should at least be equal to Whirlwind in damage and cost, otherwise, why does this skill exist if nobody is gonna use it?
Battle Trauma - counters healers and DPS by putting a strain on roll dodge sustain. Since sustain is already bad in this mode, and only 3 classes have superior sustain, I think this will make it unfun for the other 4 classes. Healing is also capped at half AoE. The natural counter to healing is damage, so heal absorption is kinda overkill. Most sticky hots are single target, so healing is not that high in the first place. The counter to roll dodge is AoE damage, and AoE damage is more viable in the 12-cap version of the campaign. I agree with other posters that this doesn't counter anything new, and just makes ball groups more oppressive. If this skill is meant to counter the shields from Battle Medic, then there needs to be a shield removal skill, not heal absorption.
Stand Firm - provides Minor Resolve and a stamina burst heal. I guess this is ok, will make soldiers more tanky
Regroup - Increases sustain for self. This is alright and helps counter the low sustain, but its an inferior version of DK inhale which also does 7k dmg, btw.
Marshaling Cry - increases group damage and movement speed. It's a pretty decent skill

Vanguard - role which survives easier and provides group support and CC

Demoralizing Disruption - Single Target negate. Kinda interesting, I think this skill is fine.
Shoulder Toss - A knockback gap closer. I think this provides variety and is fine.
Ensnaring chains - Counters scout DPS from escaping and lowers their damage after they are pulled in by a DK chain. I don't really like this because damage is not that high in the first place. If the mode had more options to build damage, then Minor Maim would be useful.
In the Fray - helps to survive outnumbered opponents. I guess this is fine, a lot of people complain about non-DKs being unable to tank and survive.
Warding Interception - Counters all damage, but especially ranged ST projectiles damage. The projectile shield portion is unnecessary. Ranged ST damage is weaker than melee, so the Major Protection is already enough. The counter to ranged ST damage is roll dodge, take cover, block, and body blocking for the squishies. Why is a projectile shield needed? People need more protection from siege AoE and DoT damage, not from direct damage bows or staffs.
Unleashed Fury - Why have an AoE skill that does damage after 2 seconds? Tanks should not be doing crazy AoE damage. We already have destruction staff ult for that. This just seems like an unfun skill that is only usable in a zerg. I would prefer an AoE CC instead, since some classes are missing AoE CC options.

Battle Medic - role which provides group heals

Combat Intercession - It's fine, only single target and very expensive just to guard 1 person.
Field Mending - This is fine. Now, classes other than templar, sorc, necro can ST burst heal an ally.
Battle Shield - has a cast time and helps counter the low sustain. This is fine.
Spirit Bolt - This skill seems unfun. Why do we need more group bombing skills? Why does it have a 3 second cast time? Groups can already coordinate ultimate dumps on a single player. We don't need to make that easier.
Expeditious Ward - This seems incredibly overpowered. So a pocket healer can make themselves and a DPS protected from burst the entire time for only 4k mag? It's a way better version of Steadfast Ward skill from resto staff line. Why make that skill useless?
Splinters of Chaos - I don't know what disorient does, don't have anyone to test it with. If you can break free from it, then it's nice for healers to get an AOE cc. However if you can't break free from disorient, and you have to wait until you get hit, that's pretty bad because it removes player agency. Zergs don't need healers carrying strong CC when a DK chains you into a 50 stack and you explode.

Scout - role that secures kills

Focus Fire - Meant to increase the effectiveness of an ult dump. Seems like a tank buster because it strips armor and target takes more crit dmg burst. Most people are not gonna waste time killing tanks, especially the perma-block inhale DKs, they're going to target squishy DPS instead so this skill is going to punish DPS and healers more than tanks. Negate is a better tank counter. I guess the skill is fine, if arcanists can give group Major Force then there should be a source of Major Brittle. But if the goal is to kill supports, then I feel like it would be better to have a debuff skill that increases block cost or applies Major Defile.
Blade Bite - Haven't tested it. Might help with dueling. I don't think it's as efficient of a cast as Rending Slashes from dw line.
Nimble Feint - Right now the skill is "backwards stamina streak." Which means this skill is an inferior version of streak, because it costs stamina which is a more precious resource in current Venegance and it puts you backwards. To make this skill different from streak, you could add a 0.3 sec dodge on it instead of a disorient CC, just as an example. Then even sorcerers would have a reason to consider the skill, because it'd be different from streak.
Stalker's Quarry - Another source of Minor force that isn't 2h is nice, as well as increasing the range. Helps ranged builds which is good.
Cleansing Shadow - Kinda interesting they're adding universal cloak. This counters the tendency for DPS to be focused and it also cleanses a dot. I guess NBs are less unique now but I'm fine with it.
Burst of Speed - Allows players to build extreme scroll runner speed builds when stacked with Major Expedition. Well, it solves the issue of people complaining that they're too slow in Vengeance, and it's under the squishiest role so tank/brawlers cannot abuse it. I think this is fine.

Rule Breakers Regarding Buff Density

So far, the rule has been that Major buff skills are applied as self buffs or ultimates, while group buffs are Minor. However, NB and DK break this pattern, and technically Warden also. Both DK and NB have the best selfish toolkits, so why do they also have the best group buffs? This makes NB+DK duos overpowered compared to any other class duo combo. Maybe NB DPS + DK tank will stalemate against a Sorc DPS + Arc tank in 2v2, since sorcerer can streak away, but they wont have the killing power to make up for lack of Molten Armaments.

Group Buffs provided by each class:
- Sorcerer: None
- Templar: Minor Fortitude+Intellect+Endurance
- Necro: None
- Warden: Major Resolve
- Arcanist: Minor Resolve, Minor Berserk, Minor Fortitude+Intellect+Endurance, Major Force (ultimate).
- NB: Major Expedition, Major Protection (ultimate)
- DK: Minor Prophecy+Savagery, Major Brutality+Sorcery

Even though arcanist provides the most group buffs, slotting the skills limits their barspace, and their attack skills have cast times and are too clunky to do meaningful bust damage to secure kills. Warden has superior healing power and self buffs and provide group utility in that way, but their damage tooltips are low so they can't secure kills, and Major Resolve is in every class toolkit so it's not unique nor stackable like the other buffs. At most, Frost Cloak gives allies extra barspace. Necro also has decent group utility, debuffs, and aoe damage. Sorcerer has timed burst with good burst damage, they can slot Dark Exchange for sustain if needed, and it's somewhat of a selfish class and thus rightfully doesn't provide group utility. Templar has terrible sustain and low defense but a decent burst damage profile, so they can secure kills but gas out in attrition battles.

Final Thoughts about PTS for U50

Overall, I think the new skills look exciting to play with. Locking them under certain roles helps with balancing. For example, even though all classes can access cloak, they have to be a Scout role. Only NB can play as a cloak brawler or cloak healer. Scout NB can choose between cleansing or burst heal cloak.

Same with Nimble Feint and Burst of Speed. If Feint is fixed to be a similar, viable but still different alternative to streak, it would be really cool. Only sorcerers and wardens should play any role with mobility and speed, the rest of the classes have to be a Scout.