Every Source of Information I Could Find Regarding Night Market's Advertisement as a Group Zone

code65536 · May 6

Arunei wrote: »

What the experience level of players was supposed to be. It was all kept very vague.

How would you have defined it then, to be less vague? Did you want them to list a CP number? That doesn't mean anything and doesn't really matter. Did you want them to list gear or build? There are so many different options--I solo a few trash packs every day for the daily Blood on the Sands gold box on my alt accounts with pureclass magblade wearing False God and Sorrow (hardly what you'd call meta) because I never bothered to update my overland setup since 2019 (with Pale Order being the only "new"-ish gear that I use).

I mean, what else are you supposed to call it except "experienced"? I've played the game long enough to see the heavy attacks that I need to dodge (without addons, believe it or not). I've played the game long enough to know the importance of having plenty of self-healing. That's "experienced".

It's vague because how can it be anything else? There are so many factors that go into whether or not you can succeed solo that all you can really say is, "it's not recommended, but if you're good enough, it's not impossible" which is 100% correct.

And if people are not sure about whether or not their level of experience meets the bar, there's only one way to find out: give it a try and see what happens. If it works, congrats, and if it doesn't, then follow the advice and find people to help you.

Psyphiman · May 6

How anyone could interpret the OP to mean that ZOS never advertised the Night Market as group content is baffling.

spartaxoxo · May 6

Deserrick wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

Right. Some of the quotes in the first post advertise that it is possible to solo, with optional grouping to make it easier. This is different from how group activities like trials are advertised: "Trials are 12-player challenges for organized PvE group play, wherein groups are pitted against the most aggressive types of encounters Tamriel has to offer. If your group is successful in completing a Trial, you can earn unique rewards."

Because you can solo the districts but can't solo a trial. It's far easier with a group but plenty of people are able to at the very least get the trash packs done alone. And an elite few can even handle some of the bosses. There's not mechs on most of them that hard require you to have another person, main exceptions being the calamties and skirmishes. But those aren't required for the dailies and you can reach 10k favor without bothering with those. You'll need to do the skirmishes once if you want to do the dungeons/trials but only the once. Calamities are purely optional but drop better loot.

There are also puzzles and daily quests that can be done alone.

JemadarofCaerSalis · May 6

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Also, just to point out that not everyone sees every piece of media put out about new updates.

This is why I said even if you missed that, literally every npc you have to interact with prior to going into the districts also tell you its group content. You hear this 4 times or more before you ever step foot in a district.

Leaving aside the fact that many players auto click through the responses (which, yeah, they probably shouldn't), it wouldn't necessarily be the first time that an NPC has suggested that the content is 'hard' when it was still firmly in 'solo friendly' territory.

So, having an NPC say 'this night market is difficult, you might need allies or a group' doesn't mean that people will think it means a group of players, but rather that maybe a companion will be sufficient.

Basically, People often have vastly differing ideas of context. One person might see 'group' and know immediately it means that they need a group of players. But, someone else, especially if they dont' group normally, might see it and think that they might need to collect allies from within the area itself, NPC allies, or getting a companion would help.

Just as many of the other instances I saw where it was said 'group content, BUT...' and then implied that you could either soft group (which is not something that happens most of the time in my experience) or could even solo it. As someone said, if they had just gone with a 'this is group content. Full stop' then people would likely have had a vastly different reaction to it.

spartaxoxo · May 6

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

As someone said, if they had just gone with a 'this is group content. Full stop' then people would likely have had a vastly different reaction to it.

Sure but that may have mislead people into not participating because they didn't have a premade group. Night Market has massively more PUG participation than trials do. And I think it's because it's designed so people can enter by themselves and get a sense if they need or want to join in with others. Most will quickly realize that's something they want but others have reported getting solo builds up and running and going at it alone anyway successfully. The choice to be able to do so alongside the fairly decent rewards has gotten a lot of people to give it a shot that otherwise probably wouldn't have.

Night Market isn't like previous content. It's a whole different thing. So, people came in with preconceived notions about what it meant they said something along the lines of you can enter solo but it would be wise to get a group or it will be tough. But there's not really a way they could avoid those notions when introducing a new standard to an over 10 year old game.

Arunei · May 7

code65536 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

What the experience level of players was supposed to be. It was all kept very vague.

How would you have defined it then, to be less vague? Did you want them to list a CP number? That doesn't mean anything and doesn't really matter. Did you want them to list gear or build? There are so many different options--I solo a few trash packs every day for the daily Blood on the Sands gold box on my alt accounts with pureclass magblade wearing False God and Sorrow (hardly what you'd call meta) because I never bothered to update my overland setup since 2019 (with Pale Order being the only "new"-ish gear that I use).

I mean, what else are you supposed to call it except "experienced"? I've played the game long enough to see the heavy attacks that I need to dodge (without addons, believe it or not). I've played the game long enough to know the importance of having plenty of self-healing. That's "experienced".

It's vague because how can it be anything else? There are so many factors that go into whether or not you can succeed solo that all you can really say is, "it's not recommended, but if you're good enough, it's not impossible" which is 100% correct.

And if people are not sure about whether or not their level of experience meets the bar, there's only one way to find out: give it a try and see what happens. If it works, congrats, and if it doesn't, then follow the advice and find people to help you.

It's not at all as complicated as you're making it sound:

"The Night Market is a Zone intended for groups and is balanced around Trial difficulty in mind. Experienced players who can handle their own against non-Boss enemies in 12-man Trials might have some luck braving the Zone on their own, but everyone else will want to find safety in numbers in order to tackle the area."

Literally ANYTHING like that, anything that mentioned the general difficulty of the entire Zone and outlines a reasonable expectation of what a person would need to be able to do solo if they want to avoid groups. You'd have gotten FAR fewer people upset with vague mentions of difficulty if they'd have set that reasonable expectation from the start. People who really like harder stuff would be curious to try, while most who the NM apparently isn't meant for wouldn't have bothered.

The whole reason it's a problem now is because ZOS never definied what "experienced" was supposed to mean in the context of "experienced players". It 100% is possible for them to outline some kind of definition when it comes to content. Experienced as in only played Overland questing? Expereinced as in able to solo Dungeons? Experienced as able to solo WBs, or Dragons, or Harrowstorms? Expereinced as in Trials? Experienced HOW? That's the issue, they never said. And they could have, easily.

Because the "if someone isn't sure what their experience level is" doesn't really apply if they KNOW they aren't someone that does Dungeons or Trials or messes with things like WBs or Incursions. And even if someone somehow doesn't know what content they CAN actually do, that "try the content and see" thing applies just the same. It applies to anyone who wants to try ANY content that's outside what they normally do. But at least saying "this is roughly the level of experience you should expect to have" prevents people from having expectations that they can do X or Y when they aren't at all ready for that content.

Arunei · May 7

spartaxoxo wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

As someone said, if they had just gone with a 'this is group content. Full stop' then people would likely have had a vastly different reaction to it.

Sure but that may have mislead people into not participating because they didn't have a premade group. Night Market has massively more PUG participation than trials do. And I think it's because it's designed so people can enter by themselves and get a sense if they need or want to join in with others. Most will quickly realize that's something they want but others have reported getting solo builds up and running and going at it alone anyway successfully. The choice to be able to do so alongside the fairly decent rewards has gotten a lot of people to give it a shot that otherwise probably wouldn't have.

Night Market isn't like previous content. It's a whole different thing. So, people came in with preconceived notions about what it meant they said something along the lines of you can enter solo but it would be wise to get a group or it will be tough. But there's not really a way they could avoid those notions when introducing a new standard to an over 10 year old game.

This genuinely makes no sense to me. How is a vague "grouping is encouraged but not required" worse than just saying "this is a group Zone"? Because everyone is saying "you've been told to group the whole time by the marketing" yet...actually telling people outright the zone is intended for groups and just saying that in the marketing is any different than what people are just being told to do anyway? If everyone was going to just wind up going "oh you were told from the start it's a group Zone so just group" then why not just say it's a group Zone to begin with instead of "a Zone that encourages grouping"?

Like...it wouldn't have misled people into thinking they need a pre-made group and more than what the current marketing does. I would think most people hardly differentiate between PUGs and premades when they see something requires grouping because most don't want to do either.

code65536 · May 7

Arunei wrote: »

Because the "if someone isn't sure what their experience level is" doesn't really apply if they KNOW they aren't someone that does Dungeons or Trials or messes with things like WBs or Incursions. And even if someone somehow doesn't know what content they CAN actually do, that "try the content and see" thing applies just the same. It applies to anyone who wants to try ANY content that's outside what they normally do. But at least saying "this is roughly the level of experience you should expect to have" prevents people from having expectations that they can do X or Y when they aren't at all ready for that content.

This isn't real-life where dying has consequences. You lose a soul gem.

The general idea is clearly conveyed: it's for groups, and it'll be hard if you're solo. Why does it need to be more specific? Why does this information need to be spoon-fed to players instead of letting them discover it on their own? That's the whole point of a game.

Playing this game for the very first time during beta, I wander across Spindleclutch, thought it was just like any other cave, went inside, got wrecked by the first trash pack within seconds. My reaction was, "oh, so that's what 'group dungeon' means" not "wtf, this place is a hazard, why aren't there more warning signs". Because, again, this isn't real-life. Dying is okay and is a part of discovering the game. And my memory of brutally dying to those first spiders of Spindleclutch made it feel that much more rewarding when, later on, I became "experienced" enough to beat the dungeon on my own.

Edit: Another way to think about it: If someone has never found out the hard way that they can't solo a normal trial, then telling them that this is like that won't mean anything to them. And if someone has found out the hard way that they can't solo a normal trial, then what's so bad about letting them discover the same here? Why is it so important that players be protected from the horrors of trying things out?

JemadarofCaerSalis · May 7

code65536 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Because the "if someone isn't sure what their experience level is" doesn't really apply if they KNOW they aren't someone that does Dungeons or Trials or messes with things like WBs or Incursions. And even if someone somehow doesn't know what content they CAN actually do, that "try the content and see" thing applies just the same. It applies to anyone who wants to try ANY content that's outside what they normally do. But at least saying "this is roughly the level of experience you should expect to have" prevents people from having expectations that they can do X or Y when they aren't at all ready for that content.

This isn't real-life where dying has consequences. You lose a soul gem.

The general idea is clearly conveyed: it's for groups, and it'll be hard if you're solo. Why does it need to be more specific? Why does this information need to be spoon-fed to players instead of letting them discover it on their own? That's the whole point of a game.

Playing this game for the very first time during beta, I wander across Spindleclutch, thought it was just like any other cave, went inside, got wrecked by the first trash pack within seconds. My reaction was, "oh, so that's what 'group dungeon' means" not "wtf, this place is a hazard, why aren't there more warning signs". Because, again, this isn't real-life. Dying is okay and is a part of discovering the game. And my memory of brutally dying to those first spiders of Spindleclutch made it feel that much more rewarding when, later on, I became "experienced" enough to beat the dungeon on my own.

Edit: Another way to think about it: If someone has never found out the hard way that they can't solo a normal trial, then telling them that this is like that won't mean anything to them. And if someone has found out the hard way that they can't solo a normal trial, then what's so bad about letting them discover the same here? Why is it so important that players be protected from the horrors of trying things out?

Because not giving players that information leads to this exact situation, where players DO try it out expecting it to be easier and then come to the forums and complain and then we get users complaining about the users complaining and then users complaining about the users complaining about users complaining.

Not to mention, not everyone likes the whole 'die a lot before you can defeat it' model. That is why dark souls like games have a lot of people who want easier modes and not everyone plays them.

I am one of those who don't like the idea of having to die 100 times just to defeat one single enemy. I don't mind dying. I die just by walking off mountains. I do mind having to throw myself over and over and over at a single enemy to get past it.

The 'whole point of a game' is to have fun. However the players want to have fun and the game allows. Some players like discovering things on their own, others like solving puzzles on their own, some hate puzzles and like combat, some love sticking their nose in every single corner to find that special loot, others like reading every bit of text they can find in a game. Some people love the dopamine of getting rewards. or collecting houses or dyes or item sets.

Just as some people love playing with a select group of friends, while others don't mind going with a random group they just found wandering around. Just as others prefer to play solo.

BUT, the less information players have before they do something, the more likely there are going to be complaints. The more up for interpretation that information is, the more likely individual players are going to interpret it differently from not only how the developers intended it it to be interpreted, but also how I interpreted it, how you interpreted it, how every single player on this forum interprets it. Which, leads to more complaints when players figure out that they interpreted it wrong.

Because the point is, yeah, if someone never tried a trial and never realized that it was 'hard content' then they wouldn't realize that the NM was also hard content. But, most people would understand that saying that the Night Market was the equivalent of a 12 player group required content means that it isn't going to be doable for the vast majority of the player base alone, and that they might want to look into seeing if a group is available.

Also, once again pointing out that one of the main differences between this and other group content is that they introduced FOMO to this mechanic by saying no one knows when it will come around. So people are thinking 'if I don't do this NOW, then I won't get the rewards I want from it' and even realizing that it will come back at least two more times doesn't help, because if they want the rewards for the other factions they have to join those factions. But, once that is over, no one knows when the night market will come back, if it does, nor what will happen to the current rewards for it. BECAUSE it is a new model that they are introducing, and they chose to do it as an event zone that disappears after so long, it makes people want to get the rewards more *now* than if it had been just another zone and set of quests that will be sticking around for as long as the game is up. If it had been another zone, then people could throw themselves at it, realize it wasn't right for them at this point, and come back when they have a group or they get stronger. Just like they can trials and arenas and world bosses and so on. But there is no guarantee that by the time the player gets stronger or finds a good group to run with, that the content will still be available.

Psyphiman · May 7

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Because the "if someone isn't sure what their experience level is" doesn't really apply if they KNOW they aren't someone that does Dungeons or Trials or messes with things like WBs or Incursions. And even if someone somehow doesn't know what content they CAN actually do, that "try the content and see" thing applies just the same. It applies to anyone who wants to try ANY content that's outside what they normally do. But at least saying "this is roughly the level of experience you should expect to have" prevents people from having expectations that they can do X or Y when they aren't at all ready for that content.

This isn't real-life where dying has consequences. You lose a soul gem.

The general idea is clearly conveyed: it's for groups, and it'll be hard if you're solo. Why does it need to be more specific? Why does this information need to be spoon-fed to players instead of letting them discover it on their own? That's the whole point of a game.

Playing this game for the very first time during beta, I wander across Spindleclutch, thought it was just like any other cave, went inside, got wrecked by the first trash pack within seconds. My reaction was, "oh, so that's what 'group dungeon' means" not "wtf, this place is a hazard, why aren't there more warning signs". Because, again, this isn't real-life. Dying is okay and is a part of discovering the game. And my memory of brutally dying to those first spiders of Spindleclutch made it feel that much more rewarding when, later on, I became "experienced" enough to beat the dungeon on my own.

Edit: Another way to think about it: If someone has never found out the hard way that they can't solo a normal trial, then telling them that this is like that won't mean anything to them. And if someone has found out the hard way that they can't solo a normal trial, then what's so bad about letting them discover the same here? Why is it so important that players be protected from the horrors of trying things out?

Because not giving players that information leads to this exact situation, where players DO try it out expecting it to be easier and then come to the forums and complain and then we get users complaining about the users complaining and then users complaining about the users complaining about users complaining.

Not to mention, not everyone likes the whole 'die a lot before you can defeat it' model. That is why dark souls like games have a lot of people who want easier modes and not everyone plays them.

I am one of those who don't like the idea of having to die 100 times just to defeat one single enemy. I don't mind dying. I die just by walking off mountains. I do mind having to throw myself over and over and over at a single enemy to get past it.

The 'whole point of a game' is to have fun. However the players want to have fun and the game allows. Some players like discovering things on their own, others like solving puzzles on their own, some hate puzzles and like combat, some love sticking their nose in every single corner to find that special loot, others like reading every bit of text they can find in a game. Some people love the dopamine of getting rewards. or collecting houses or dyes or item sets.

Just as some people love playing with a select group of friends, while others don't mind going with a random group they just found wandering around. Just as others prefer to play solo.

BUT, the less information players have before they do something, the more likely there are going to be complaints. The more up for interpretation that information is, the more likely individual players are going to interpret it differently from not only how the developers intended it it to be interpreted, but also how I interpreted it, how you interpreted it, how every single player on this forum interprets it. Which, leads to more complaints when players figure out that they interpreted it wrong.

Because the point is, yeah, if someone never tried a trial and never realized that it was 'hard content' then they wouldn't realize that the NM was also hard content. But, most people would understand that saying that the Night Market was the equivalent of a 12 player group required content means that it isn't going to be doable for the vast majority of the player base alone, and that they might want to look into seeing if a group is available.

Also, once again pointing out that one of the main differences between this and other group content is that they introduced FOMO to this mechanic by saying no one knows when it will come around. So people are thinking 'if I don't do this NOW, then I won't get the rewards I want from it' and even realizing that it will come back at least two more times doesn't help, because if they want the rewards for the other factions they have to join those factions. But, once that is over, no one knows when the night market will come back, if it does, nor what will happen to the current rewards for it. BECAUSE it is a new model that they are introducing, and they chose to do it as an event zone that disappears after so long, it makes people want to get the rewards more *now* than if it had been just another zone and set of quests that will be sticking around for as long as the game is up. If it had been another zone, then people could throw themselves at it, realize it wasn't right for them at this point, and come back when they have a group or they get stronger. Just like they can trials and arenas and world bosses and so on. But there is no guarantee that by the time the player gets stronger or finds a good group to run with, that the content will still be available.

Based on this feedback, the solution for ZOS is not to change the event to meet players misconceptions, but to consider other ways to communicate in the future. At this point, whatever players incorrectly assumed about the NM, they have now been made clearly aware by trying it for themselves (or by what people say on the forums).

Personally, if I made false assumptions about the Night Market after ZOS did in fact communicate that it was group content, I would be saying “my bad” not “ZOS’s bad.”

jad11mumbler · May 7

Arunei wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

What the experience level of players was supposed to be. It was all kept very vague.

"The Night Market is a Zone intended for groups and is balanced around Trial difficulty in mind. Experienced players who can handle their own against non-Boss enemies in 12-man Trials might have some luck braving the Zone on their own, but everyone else will want to find safety in numbers in order to tackle the area."

It was never that vague to begin with.

Anyone with experience in the game should have known what was coming, OP and others have linked enough.

As this thread has proven even if ZoS did spell it out everywhere, most people still wouldn't have read it anyway.
There's even negative reviews on steam about people not knowing its a group zone despite it being called a group zone from the start.

tomofhyrule · May 7

Psyphiman wrote: »

Personally, if I made false assumptions about the Night Market after ZOS did in fact communicate that it was group content, I would be saying “my bad” not “ZOS’s bad.”

Admirable, but I have my doubts that people will generally say “my bad” and accept that.

After all, how many times have we had people start a forum thread and someone says “here’s what ZOS’s stance is,” only for the OP to start arguing about it.

AScarlato · May 7

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

Personally, if I made false assumptions about the Night Market after ZOS did in fact communicate that it was group content, I would be saying “my bad” not “ZOS’s bad.”

Admirable, but I have my doubts that people will generally say “my bad” and accept that.

After all, how many times have we had people start a forum thread and someone says “here’s what ZOS’s stance is,” only for the OP to start arguing about it.

When people review official posts and then continue posting like they don't exist, I just bow out. At the end of the day, it's not important enough to me that one person on the forums refuses to change their mind and accept they were incorrect about something.

Bguk · May 7

I can see a future where games will have a label that lists each type of content/activity in the game with a solo/group/mixed level of activity. Much like nutrition labels on food, below example. And like jad11mumbler stated above, some people still won't read it.

Tales of Tribute: Solo
Trials: Group
Overland: Mixed

twisttop138 · May 7

AScarlato wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

Personally, if I made false assumptions about the Night Market after ZOS did in fact communicate that it was group content, I would be saying “my bad” not “ZOS’s bad.”

Admirable, but I have my doubts that people will generally say “my bad” and accept that.

After all, how many times have we had people start a forum thread and someone says “here’s what ZOS’s stance is,” only for the OP to start arguing about it.

When people review official posts and then continue posting like they don't exist, I just bow out. At the end of the day, it's not important enough to me that one person on the forums refuses to change their mind and accept they were incorrect about something.

The convincing will continue until morale improves.

spartaxoxo · May 7

Arunei wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

As someone said, if they had just gone with a 'this is group content. Full stop' then people would likely have had a vastly different reaction to it.

Sure but that may have mislead people into not participating because they didn't have a premade group. Night Market has massively more PUG participation than trials do. And I think it's because it's designed so people can enter by themselves and get a sense if they need or want to join in with others. Most will quickly realize that's something they want but others have reported getting solo builds up and running and going at it alone anyway successfully. The choice to be able to do so alongside the fairly decent rewards has gotten a lot of people to give it a shot that otherwise probably wouldn't have.

Night Market isn't like previous content. It's a whole different thing. So, people came in with preconceived notions about what it meant they said something along the lines of you can enter solo but it would be wise to get a group or it will be tough. But there's not really a way they could avoid those notions when introducing a new standard to an over 10 year old game.

This genuinely makes no sense to me. How is a vague "grouping is encouraged but not required" worse than just saying "this is a group Zone"? Because everyone is saying "you've been told to group the whole time by the marketing" yet...actually telling people outright the zone is intended for groups and just saying that in the marketing is any different than what people are just being told to do anyway? If everyone was going to just wind up going "oh you were told from the start it's a group Zone so just group" then why not just say it's a group Zone to begin with instead of "a Zone that encourages grouping"?

Like...it wouldn't have misled people into thinking they need a pre-made group and more than what the current marketing does. I would think most people hardly differentiate between PUGs and premades when they see something requires grouping because most don't want to do either.

It's worse because it discourages participation and is also not true.

It has stuff in it that can be solo'ed and does not require the level of organization that group play has traditionally demanded. Many people hear, "grouping is required," and think "I don't have a guild/friends so I guess it is not for me and I don't want the bad experiences I hear about in pugs where people try to control gear," when that's not how grouping in night market works. When they hear "You can try to solo it but you'll be better off with a group," then they actually go in and try. And they can see for themselves that it's too hard for them to do alone but also that maybe a group won't be as bad as trials because the activity is clearly less organized. So they go into group finder to give it a try and find out if they like it or not.

And we know people have done this because they have left feedback about how they were hesitant with grouping but NM made them give it a try and they enjoyed it. Night Market also has a higher level of GF participation than any other activity in the history of the game.

There has been group content before but none have had as many pickup groups as NM and part of that is they advertised it in a way that encourages solo players to give it a chance rather than using language that makes them feel immediately excluded.

In the end, people will carry pre-existing ideas into both ways of wording it. But the proof is in the pudding which delivered the highest level of participation ever.

emilyhyoyeon · May 7

I remember when the Oblivion portal incursions were advertized as something like soloable by experienced players lol

Ishtarknows · May 7

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I remember when the Oblivion portal incursions were advertized as something like soloable by experienced players lol

They are though

emilyhyoyeon · 11:17AM

Ishtarknows wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I remember when the Oblivion portal incursions were advertized as something like soloable by experienced players lol

They are though

Yeah. My point is that they are substantially easier than the NM despite being described similarly. Like they are nearly overland-level of easy.

frogthroat · 11:24AM

code65536 wrote: »

This isn't real-life where dying has consequences. You lose a soul gem.

Excellent point. I was about to add "and a bit of gear durability" but there's so many group repair kits dropping that even in pug groups people use them pretty freely, so... not even durability. A soul gem. Except if you rez at the wayshrine? Does rezzing at the rooftop even use a soul gem?