Sorc overload deals such high damage on dummies, but what about its usage rate on logs? Here's a statistic someone did during U48, showing that all three Sorc lines have very low usage rates. Even if you double the most popular Sorc line, it's still lower than the popular Arc and Nightblade skill lines.

This statistic precisely illustrates that balancing based on simulated environments is likely to become detached from reality, ultimately exacerbating the imbalance.

Don't forget, the developers had planned to nerf Bound Armaments by 10% based on the simulation environment.

I understand that the feedback threads are mostly dominated by sorc and ww conversations, but I am really disappointed with how little care templar received this time around.
Judgements brand is horrendously weak in pvp, and the other offensive mastery is just barely serviceable, especially taking into account the offensive passives other classes get access to.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I really wish ZOS had never released the trial dummies, those things have been the absolute worst thing to use as a metric for balancing classes because they give completely unrealistic parsing conditions that doesn't match up with real content. But players throw around dummy parses like they are actual in-game trial runs and use the most unrealistic and cheesed youtube click bait parse numbers as reasons to call for nerfs to other classes without any understanding of how that number was cheesed and why it is not a good comparison of how the class actually performs in real content.

From what I know, at least for the last 5 years, they pretty much did represent the power difference also in content too (specifically talking about trials). A skilled player able to achieve high values on a parse dummy will also be able to update the build according to actual content requirements -- except for HA builds.

No, they can't. Before the u46 was released, there were rumors of a sorc achieving over 180K damage (the highest at the time) using Overload. But we all know that in actual PvE, the sorc's usage rate is still very low, tied for last place with the warden.

This will be werewolf, because unless you're in a WW guild that's just going YOLO or has human babysitters, you will be at a disadvantage if you're even allowed. Melee only cleave with no utility? Yeah lol.

Necromancer – Malevolent Promise [Feedback]: We have been reading your feedback about the Malevolent Promise passive and PvP content and wanted to give a little more context into why it does not work on enemy player characters. When we tested this Class Mastery passive internally, it created an extreme imbalance in PvP situations (we referred to these as “war crimes” in our early dev reveal). Rather than tone down the power of this passive for all content, we opted to make it only usable on non-player enemies in the short term. These passives are not able to be optimal in all possible situations throughout the game as the end-all be-all solutions to Subclassing concerns. Many of these, especially in cases of classes who will benefit greatly from their class refresh pass, are temporary solutions to power imbalances. So, we do hear your feedback and will be making more adjustments to the Class Mastery passives as we work through each class refresh in the future.

So refresh that class this year then!

You are telling us to wait for 1 and a half year again, and necromancer players are tired of waiting for this class to be playable.

We have been asking for a refresh for years, and we are tired of waiting. These days I don't even play the game because other classes are just getting stronger and stronger while the one I use is getting weaker. Necromancer is a paid class, and we can't even use it.

Are you going to see reason, and refresh it this year? Warden is already fine the way it now, just go to cyro and check at the class. Deep fissure does more damage than blastbone and the DK whip seems to be stronger too.

I was forced to stop playing because of the changes you made!

look at this thread bellow, people are massively asking for that refresh.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691398/what-class-is-the-most-in-need-of-attention-bug-fixes-and-buffs-right-now/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691015/please-move-up-necromancer-rework-to-2026#latest

this thread bellow showed how people hate the grave lord sacrifice and want it gone.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/654213/necromancer-skill-stalking-blastbones-vs-grave-lords-sacrifice#latest

How long is necromancer going to remain unplayable? I came in this game in 2019 because this class was released, and I paid the Elsweyr chapter as a result. For years we have been nerfed again and again, for years we have been asking for a refresh, and the when classes refresh are announced, we are to to wait two more years. Do you realize how the people who bought that class, and place time and efforts on it must have felt?

So now refresh that class, for this year's winter. You still have 6 months to work on it. Otherwise I guess I will stop eso+ and leave the game because I am tired of witnessing other classes being buffed again and again.

Fragile_teacup wrote: »

i would like to ask the testing team to have a duel between dk and nb. perhaps u willl see how bad the passive skill of pure nb is in pvp

Yeah, or sorc vs nb. Or necro vs nb. Or arc vs nb. Basically any class now gets better options due to new class masteries. Pure nightblade always had worst defense kit (not solved by masteries at all), doesn't get any sustain buffs (while necro got infinite stamina sustain, sorc got infinite passive healing, and dk can run literally 3stat food WITHOUT any sustain sets/jewelry enchants/mundus due to 1 skill only, Heart of Flame, which instead of nerfing gets further buffs. I'm wondering what was in the head of a responsible person inventing this skill, which is THE MOST overpowered skill in the history of ESO PVP, and then thought: "yeah, that's not enough, lets buff it even further".)
What kind of class design is that that some classes, e.g. pure NB, or U49 Necro need to run Orzorga food plus some jewelry enchants plus 3stat potions with 30% recovery increases, and still struggle with the sustain, while DK could run around with 600-700 recoveries AND Food without recoveries AND potions without recoveries (e.g. health + mag resist + physical resist) and still have infinite sustain due to ONE class skill?

Good PVP character balance is a combination of 3 pillars: Damage (your weapon/spell damage, AOE/DOT capabilities, burst combo, etc.), Defense (your mitigations, escape tools, burst healing, HOTs, etc.) and Sustain (mag/stam recovery, skills or sets that help you keep your resources up, like Siphoning Strikes). A good balance makes sure these 3 pillars are at the edges of a triangle. Go full damage - you are a glass canon and can't sustain long enough. Go super tanky, and you hit like a wet noodle and can't kill anyone.
With the recent DK buffs this triangle is completely forgotten. DKs can literally forget about their sustain and go full damage or full tankiness, cause they will never run out of resources if they keep hitting Heart of Flame. That skill is the masterpiece that has all the best of this triangle, defense (17% HP every 2 seconds), infinite sustain (15% mag and stam every 2 seconds) AND delayed damage helping to burst. Just wow.

Just disable Signet Ring mythic in WW form, it already excludes Warden Bear so do the same with WW and see how things work out.

coop500 wrote: »

Just disable Signet Ring mythic in WW form, it already excludes Warden Bear so do the same with WW and see how things work out.

I don't think that this is the answer. The mythic needs to be adjusted. I'd rather not be excluded from mythic items. We were already excluded from monomyth front bar bonuses. Everyone but us got Major Force on demand.

I really think NB should be looked over again for their class passives, mainly for PvP. Maybe they're good in PvE, I don't know. Looking at the sorc parses in pve I wouldn't think so. But sorc is getting their refresh this november/december and have some of the strongest passives in PvP. NB has to wait until June next year and their passives still leave them squishy and their crit damage passive gives them no benefit over subclassing unless they go full glass canon. Not to mention their scaling weapon damage passive is barely going to see much benefit against the increased healing other classes will be receiving since it is only going to work when the target is at low HP. At best it's just going to help NBs heal the damage they're receiving from everyone else.

I just learned from a kind forum-goer that the weapon and spell damage for werewolf has been bugged while dueling in 'overland' since the change last PTS week. The passive is bugged and has been giving the FULL PvE VALUE (33% weapon and spell damage) while not in an actual PVP area.

This is yet another item/issue GREATLY inflating ‘PvP parses’ artificially, whether this be on stats page and/or in combat, if so.

Proof:

Control (normal 'overland' weapon/spell damage). Location: Glenumbra bridge outside of town:



Control (normal nerfed 'Battle Spirit' weapon/spell damage). Location: Imperial City Sewers, in base:



Proof of 'bugged' wep/spell in dueling while in overland content. Yet another bug/exploit that could be 'inflating parses'. Location: Glenumbra bridge outside of town (player visible in background):



@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Kevin - is the team aware of this *visual bug?

Faint_One wrote: »

Should be notice that values on dummy or info not actually means it's power rates in real contents,classes which focus on AOE should not be covered by the one on Singles,so thats why like arc alway need to be lowest on dummy,for now in pts week3, that's slightly wrong on Dk and Cros,also a bit on nbs.
DK lost pyrebrand’s special single power so drop behind while necro got full power AOE from corpseburster,that's some things need to think more.

Yes, fully agreed. Dummy parses are helpful, but not the full story.

From my own personal testing, Werewolf is slightly ahead in raw DPS vs other one bar builds against a dummy, at the cost of the ult upkeep and limited utility, and no range or flexibility. This sounds fair to me.
Plus most other one bar builds being easier to play than the new WW, especially beam and DK breath which have more comfortable sub-ability timers to cycle through, while WW feels like one ability could use just a few seconds longer duration so I can comfortably fit two claw furies together (like you can with arcanist beam and DK breath builds)

Mgic wrote: »

I really truly hope that people understand Werewolf should never, in any world have comparable damage to a full glass canon PvE DDs? and based on what I'm reading in this thread, some people genuinely are:

This was essentially the case in Week 1, I built a 70k Magicka Sorcerer build, using 2 Shields and the new Class Mastery to heal on skill cast. This build was almost immortal against the live meta setups, my friend built a Werewolf that shredded it in seconds. Over 12k DPS in PvP while remaining tanky enough to survive my combos, it was absolutely obscene. No Streak or Shield could do anything against it. I've been playing ESO PvP for almost a decade and it was the strongest thing I have *ever* seen, at least under our conditions.

@Mgic I wanted to come back to this comment, because I remember it seemed strange to me at the time. My suspicions were correct: I saw you in Anime's stream recap on this 70k MagSorc. The 8 fights I saw against 4 different players were your build getting rolled over by everyone and never doing any damage in return.

So to say "It was almost immortal" and that only a Werewolf could stop it seems far-fetched to say the least. What's up with that entire thing? Not to cast any blame, because magicka stacking can't compete with procs and the DPS all other specs can output, including proc sorc.

huskandhunger wrote: »

Consider toning down the raw power of this passive as well from "up to once every 200ms" to "up to once every 2 seconds" to match status effect damage over times

Agreed. It seems (based on what the general consensus) tried to make the old implosion proc less potent in execute... but somehow managed to make it more potent (at least outside of execute, by a large margin, that is)

danko355 wrote: »

Fragile_teacup wrote: »

i would like to ask the testing team to have a duel between dk and nb. perhaps u willl see how bad the passive skill of pure nb is in pvp

Yeah, or sorc vs nb. Or necro vs nb. Or arc vs nb. Basically any class now gets better options due to new class masteries. Pure nightblade always had worst defense kit (not solved by masteries at all), doesn't get any sustain buffs (while necro got infinite stamina sustain, sorc got infinite passive healing, and dk can run literally 3stat food WITHOUT any sustain sets/jewelry enchants/mundus due to 1 skill only, Heart of Flame, which instead of nerfing gets further buffs. I'm wondering what was in the head of a responsible person inventing this skill, which is THE MOST overpowered skill in the history of ESO PVP, and then thought: "yeah, that's not enough, lets buff it even further".)
What kind of class design is that that some classes, e.g. pure NB, or U49 Necro need to run Orzorga food plus some jewelry enchants plus 3stat potions with 30% recovery increases, and still struggle with the sustain, while DK could run around with 600-700 recoveries AND Food without recoveries AND potions without recoveries (e.g. health + mag resist + physical resist) and still have infinite sustain due to ONE class skill?

Good PVP character balance is a combination of 3 pillars: Damage (your weapon/spell damage, AOE/DOT capabilities, burst combo, etc.), Defense (your mitigations, escape tools, burst healing, HOTs, etc.) and Sustain (mag/stam recovery, skills or sets that help you keep your resources up, like Siphoning Strikes). A good balance makes sure these 3 pillars are at the edges of a triangle. Go full damage - you are a glass canon and can't sustain long enough. Go super tanky, and you hit like a wet noodle and can't kill anyone.
With the recent DK buffs this triangle is completely forgotten. DKs can literally forget about their sustain and go full damage or full tankiness, cause they will never run out of resources if they keep hitting Heart of Flame. That skill is the masterpiece that has all the best of this triangle, defense (17% HP every 2 seconds), infinite sustain (15% mag and stam every 2 seconds) AND delayed damage helping to burst. Just wow.

They just want to bully us. Everyone were saying that NB needs massive buffs in pvp but they keep nerfing NB each week, there is no other logical answer to how they make these NB changes

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Consider toning down the raw power of this passive as well from "up to once every 200ms" to "up to once every 2 seconds" to match status effect damage over times

Just disable Class Masteries for WW and call it a day. EZ.

Then we don't have to nerf Sorc just because of its interaction with WW.

Honestly I'd prefer Mastery Passives to be disabled for WW for now as well as a test than to see WW overall nerfed yet again.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Just disable Class Masteries for WW and call it a day. EZ.

Or just give werewolf its own ‘masteries’. They are just passives after all. They don’t even have to infuse a tons of damage or anything and we can avoid completely locking werewolf us out of yet another system that will stifle creativity further alongside build expression.

I quite literally have a viable suggestion on my general PTS forum post with 4 of 5 of the possible passives ~provided~. (Just simple things that aren’t injecting power anywhere in particular/crazy at all).

They could honestly just make ‘place holder passives’ for ‘werewolf mastery’ that are like 2-4% damage here, 2-4% healing there and then 2-4% damage taken reduced’ and just change them later… so we have them to work with and they’re not ‘calling it’.

You somehow got Yandere's quote attributed to me lol.

But I doubt they'd be able to make a whole set of balanced WW Mastery Passives this PTS cycle. Like they were working on Mastery Passives since months ago. While I would really like WW Mastery Passives, it's not something we'd get for U50. It could be something for them to work on for maybe U51 or something, but in the meantime I'd prefer to see Mastery Passives disabled for WW as opposed to it getting nerfed itself.