Update 50 PTS – Week 3 Summary

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · May 1

coop500 wrote: »

Are any of these topics about werewolf at all, or just other things?

Yep! That's on the list of things we're checking on with respective teams for some additional context and answers.

Inari Telvanni wrote: »

I'm a little sad to see that the feedback I've been pushing about werewolf emotes has gone seemingly ignored or unseen...

The potential of werewolves having emotes again after all these years had me very excited.

Sorry, @Inari Telvanni, for some reason I thought we'd provided an answer for that one already and it looks like we didn't. I actually have an answer am writing it up now, and am going to respond in this thread. To set expectations, though, unfortunately it isn't something we're able to do at this time (though we would genuinely love to.)

coop500 · May 1

Dracane wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, thank you for the feedback in this week's PTS Summary, and the follow-up questions about specific topics. We're checking back in with the respective dev teams who are working on the topics you've asked about above and will follow up on what we can next week.

Are any of these topics about werewolf at all, or just other things?

Come on @coop500- I’m only seeing 1 answer to that unless I’m egregiously wrong and they’re doing a 180 on everything they’ve done feedback-wise up until this point (of the game for werewolf) and neither of us appreciates that.

This is easy to write off as ‘the players want too much’ or ‘you can’t please them all’… but if you really thinking about it- this is the result after a decade (animations are good… balance hmmmmmm)… Anyone that has been looking forward to these changes and has been following these notes and the clear and obfuscated data along with general sentiment would rightfully be disappointed in this result.

I have to ask, Jessica has responded to me before on simple questions like that. But don't get me wrong, I'm depressed as hell, I knew this would happen and people didn't believe me. Even now people are pushing for more nerfs, and the devs have no reason to care

They wouldn't go through all this effort to remake all the effects and animations and listening to feedback (often negative) over and over to fine tune the appearance of Werewolf. Clearly they care to deliver a satisfying experience. Saying over and over they don't care does a great disservice.

How I understand it is that they overbuffed it last week, and now will dial it back a bit again. Meaning it should still be better than the week before that. If not, we can still crash out.

Visuals and game balance are different departments. The balance team has no reason to care, because the people who hate werewolves for a slew of reasons outnumber those of us who care about werewolf not sucking

The casual werewolf player won't care either, they're just happy to get anything after 11 years.

Most werewolf players will swallow the bitter pill because we're used to sucking.

It is on the devs best interest to keep werewolf in a bad place. This doesn't offend the furry haters, the one bar haters, and whoever else. And werewolf people will keep playing.

coop500 · May 1

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Are any of these topics about werewolf at all, or just other things?

Yep! That's on the list of things we're checking on with respective teams for some additional context and answers.

Inari Telvanni wrote: »

I'm a little sad to see that the feedback I've been pushing about werewolf emotes has gone seemingly ignored or unseen...

The potential of werewolves having emotes again after all these years had me very excited.

Sorry, @Inari Telvanni, for some reason I thought we'd provided an answer for that one already and it looks like we didn't. I actually have an answer am writing it up now, and am going to respond in this thread. To set expectations, though, unfortunately it isn't something we're able to do at this time (though we would genuinely love to.)

Thank you Jessica, sadly I expect this will likely be excuses as to why werewolf has to be in a bad place, but I know that isn't your choice. I just wish things could be different.

I'm angry because I care, because for 9 years personally, werewolf has been my favorite playstyle despite it being so objectively weak in high end PVE, and we've not been allowed to look forward to our rework. So much so that some people are even saying to take it back. I don't personally agree with that, but I don't blame people for saying it.

The moment werewolf players stop being angry about the nerfs is the moment we gave up, and that's not good for anyone.

VinnyGambini · May 1

Wait sorcerer class mastery is getting buffed, while templar and nb stay as it is?

Where is the logic?

Wuuffyy · May 1

Dracane wrote: »

How I understand it is that they overbuffed

I’m not even going to bother anymore with taking the right part of the snippet, they did nothing but nerf it last week- maybe you’re mistaken. This is the exact type of phrasing they used prior before we received those nerfs and that was correctly identified too.

We say ‘they don’t care about our feedback’ as it has been 10 years since werewolf has released and outside of a couple of patches it has always been the ridiculously suboptimal option at everything it does. I can roleplay as a werewolf all I want either way- I can do that on live and I can do that on PTS.

I wanted werewolf to have a FRACTION of what everyone else I’m fighting has and uses to overpower me in efficiency in EVERY fight. I wanted 1 singular burst move, I wanted 1 hot (I did not need/ask for “healing while using your direct damage spammable in melee), I didn’t want my only on-demand heal NERFED from live, and I didn’t want my berserker “DoT” to be reduced to 1 fluffin’ second from live.

That’s why I’m personally saying that they can at least either bench the rework and finish this up at the end of the rework cycle, or port the animations now and bench the skills rework later (you can simply keep QoL like bite attack cadence, and Pounce either/or conversion for now). This is a beyond reasonable request at this point.

Werewolf in its current capacity is far too exploitable on one end and far too weak when you aren’t exploiting on the other…. nobody remotely concerned with the balance of werewolf right now wins. They aren’t appearing to listen to feedback demonstrating how to properly remove fringe interactions while healthily restoring some of what has been lost from even live. Hekk, buffs of any kind don’t even appear to be on the table for werewolf- no matter how you request for it.

Dracane · May 1

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

How I understand it is that they overbuffed

I’m not even going to bother anymore with taking the right part of the snippet, they did nothing but nerf it last week- maybe you’re mistaken. This is the exact type of phrasing they used prior before we received those nerfs and that was correctly identified too.

We say ‘they don’t care about our feedback’ as it’s been 10 years since werewolf has released and outside of a couple of patches it has always been the ridiculously suboptimal option at everything it does. I can roleplay as a werewolf all I want either way- I can do that on live and I can do that on PTS.

I wanted werewolf to have a FRACTION of what everyone else I’m fighting has and uses to overpower me in efficiency in EVERY fight. I wanted 1 singular burst move, I wanted 1 hot (I did not need/ask for “healing while using your direct damage spammable in melee), I didn’t want my only on-demand heal NERFED from live, and I didn’t want my berserker “DoT” to be reduced to 1 fluffin’ second from live.

That’s why I’m personally saying that they can at least either bench the rework and finish this up and the end of the rework cycle, or port the animations now and bench the skills rework later (you can simply keep QoL like bite attack cadence, and Pounce either/or conversion for now). This is a beyond reasonable request at this point.

Werewolf in its current capacity is far too exploitable on one end and far too weak when you aren’t exploiting on the other…. nobody remotely concerned with the balance of werewolf right now wins. They aren’t appearing to listen to feedback demonstrating how to properly remove fringe interactions while healthily restoring some of what has been lost from even live. Hekk, buffs of any kind don’t even appear to be on the table for werewolf- no matter how you request for it.

I meant PvE. Coop cares about PvE only, and it was buffed in that regard last week and they announced PvE nerfs for next patch.

coop500 · May 1

I would love to see a class on here be literally unplayable in high end PvE content for literally 9 years and the playerbase not be angry about it.

coop500 · May 1

Dracane wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

How I understand it is that they overbuffed

I’m not even going to bother anymore with taking the right part of the snippet, they did nothing but nerf it last week- maybe you’re mistaken. This is the exact type of phrasing they used prior before we received those nerfs and that was correctly identified too.

We say ‘they don’t care about our feedback’ as it’s been 10 years since werewolf has released and outside of a couple of patches it has always been the ridiculously suboptimal option at everything it does. I can roleplay as a werewolf all I want either way- I can do that on live and I can do that on PTS.

I wanted werewolf to have a FRACTION of what everyone else I’m fighting has and uses to overpower me in efficiency in EVERY fight. I wanted 1 singular burst move, I wanted 1 hot (I did not need/ask for “healing while using your direct damage spammable in melee), I didn’t want my only on-demand heal NERFED from live, and I didn’t want my berserker “DoT” to be reduced to 1 fluffin’ second from live.

That’s why I’m personally saying that they can at least either bench the rework and finish this up and the end of the rework cycle, or port the animations now and bench the skills rework later (you can simply keep QoL like bite attack cadence, and Pounce either/or conversion for now). This is a beyond reasonable request at this point.

Werewolf in its current capacity is far too exploitable on one end and far too weak when you aren’t exploiting on the other…. nobody remotely concerned with the balance of werewolf right now wins. They aren’t appearing to listen to feedback demonstrating how to properly remove fringe interactions while healthily restoring some of what has been lost from even live. Hekk, buffs of any kind don’t even appear to be on the table for werewolf- no matter how you request for it.

I meant PvE. Coop cares about PvE only, and it was buffed in that regard last week and they announced PvE nerfs for next patch.

It wasn't actually buffed by much, because we took the hit to Rip and Tear last week too, and it's noticable.

We were also told that Claw Fury couldn't be too strong because the whole point is werewolf being strong with single target damage, but now that's taking a hit too. And judging by the wording, Rip and Tear will be getting yet another nerf in PvE again.

Single target melee damage also in general just kind of sucks for high end PvE, like that's not something to brag about. You need range or at least good cleave, Arcanist beam gives both, and a massive self shield to boot, Werewolf has neither. That's why I'm so angry and sad.

YandereGirlfriend · May 1

My two-cents on the dilemma of WW balance:

"It also goes to show how difficult it is to balance WW while it still has all of these complicated interactions with other game systems, be that Class Masteries, Mythics, etc. I am not sure if it is possible to actually achieve.

Which is why it would be much easier for everyone involved to simply remove these unbalancable interactions and instead say: "This is a WW; it does discrete WW things; it does not touch other existing game systems". Then they can tune the WW traits to whatever is required to hit the sweet spot of balance.

Otherwise, it is going to be a revolving door of nerfing 3rd party targets due to the way that they interact with the WW kit. The problem is the interaction with WW. Hence the imperative to break those interactions and simplify the process of balancing."

Additionally, I would question why WW cannot simply be a toggle and why it requires the current ult-gen minigame that nobody finds additive to the gameplay experience. It is just busywork for the sake of busywork. Let WWs transform when and where they want and allow them to maintain the form for as long as they like. That is a pure quality-of-life win with zero credible balance downside.

YandereGirlfriend · May 1

Also want to continue to bang the drum for additional non-keystone set bonus reworks!

There are a number of PvE trial support sets as well as missed PvP sets that would be nicely jazzed-up and given new life with just a small tweak to their bonuses.

PvE:

Martial Knowledge
Elemental Catalyst
Z'en's Touch
Powerful Assault

PvP:

Battalion Defender
Buffer of the Swift
Desert Rose
Imperial Physique
Lamp Knight's Art
Netch Oil
Reactive Armor
Tracker's Lash

Feel free to add more below!

I think that basic heuristic is that if it is a DPS/DPS-support set that has an unhelpful Max Stats bonus -> change it to a better damage-dealing bonus (e.g. Weapon Damage, Crit Chance or Pen) and if it is a tank/survival set with Max Stats -> change it to a better survival bonus (e.g. Health, Armor or Crit Resist).

Wuuffyy · May 1

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

"It also goes to show how difficult it is to balance WW while it still has all of these complicated interactions with other game systems, be that Class Masteries, Mythics, etc. I am not sure if it is possible to actually achieve.

I mean, they do this to themselves and that doesn’t mean we should be removed completely from everything. I don’t want a Vengeance werewolf either.

We create this convoluted ult sustain system (which you’d think would merit us getting some kind of ult-level strength) that is either non consequential (Packleader) or down right over bearing when not always in an active fight or near corpse (Berserker)… completely nerf our main spammable from live, but then give it a guaranteed status effect…

Then- they release a mythic that gives you random status effects and status effect damage based on your ultimate (I mean come on here haha)

~~~

THEN, also release class masteries at THE EXACT SAME time as werewolf (which are… just really strong class passives for underperforming class combinations) but don’t adjust for werewolf 5, choose 2 and allow it to benefit that way in a more contained fashion

~~~

AND THEN you put all of this in a vacuum of dueling with no ability to test in anything remotely realistic like small scale/large scale because, you know, Vengeance only werewolf…

and you get these woefully skewed parses and legitimately downright broken interactions. But only because it was arguably self-inflicted.

///

@YandereGirlfriend - I mean come on, we never even had a chance to play ball when you think about it it 🎾

Dracane · May 1

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Also want to continue to bang the drum for additional non-keystone set bonus reworks!

There are a number of PvE trial support sets as well as missed PvP sets that would be nicely jazzed-up and given new life with just a small tweak to their bonuses.

PvE:

Martial Knowledge
Elemental Catalyst
Z'en's Touch
Powerful Assault

PvP:

Battalion Defender
Buffer of the Swift
Desert Rose
Imperial Physique
Lamp Knight's Art
Netch Oil
Reactive Armor
Tracker's Lash

Feel free to add more below!

I think that basic heuristic is that if it is a DPS/DPS-support set that has an unhelpful Max Stats bonus -> change it to a better damage-dealing bonus (e.g. Weapon Damage, Crit Chance or Pen) and if it is a tank/survival set with Max Stats -> change it to a better survival bonus (e.g. Health, Armor or Crit Resist).

It depends on what you want for your build and how traditional it is. Elemental Catalyst is perfect for my tank build with its 2x Magicka pieces, as I utilize high magicka for stronger wards. Set effects being non-conformist isn't exclusively bad. Your conclusion rings true regardless, though. Generally it should be this way.

Wuuffyy · May 1

Dracane wrote: »

I
meant PvE. Coop cares about PvE only, and it was buffed in that regard last week and they announced PvE nerfs for next patch.

Honestly, I feel horrible for @coop500. I’m so busy trying to debate on how our kit received a base nerf from live and that we need better balancing on both ends and *you are legitimately a one-person army that is trying to hold back a raging storm.

What’s even worse to think about is they represent many in that same boat that are going to be equally disappointed that werewolf isn’t allowed to have cleave, but also can’t have in-line high ST damage either so they go back to being not-remotely-close to anyone and taking all the penalties of being a ‘meme’ spec.

Even I’m interested in getting serious with a WW PvE spec but if the howl is the only spec that can pull over 140k, that just isn’t going to be viable. We’ll wait to see adjustments there but yet another example of ‘what could have been’.

So Coop, I thank you for trying. Trust me when I say you may not care about PvP but we all have tried nonetheless.

Prionyx · May 1

So basically you gave NB the worst class masteries, everyone were saying how laughable they were and then you NERFED them. After this once again everyone were saying that they are super weak and pure NB will be unplayable while other classes get OP masteries(literally the most viewed community post was my post about how absurd NB nerfs with proofs that this is the worst PVP class, to which everyone excluding one troll agreed to) and now you nerf NB masteries again? Even if you gave PVP NB these 2500 WPD and 25% crit that wouldn't help pure NB. But you nerfed them even further. I have no words. What's the point of asking for a feedback if you don't listen to it.

coop500 · May 1

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I
meant PvE. Coop cares about PvE only, and it was buffed in that regard last week and they announced PvE nerfs for next patch.

Honestly, I feel horrible for @coop500. I’m so busy trying to debate on how our kit received a base nerf from live and that we need better balancing on both ends and they are legitimately a one-person army that is trying to hold back a raging storm.

What’s even worse to think about is they represents many in that same boat that are going to be equally disappointed that werewolf isn’t allowed to have cleave, but also can’t have in-line high ST damage either so they go back to being not-remotely-close to anyone and taking all the penalties of being a ‘meme’ spec.

Even I’m interested in getting serious with a WW PvE spec but if the howl is the only spec that can pull over 140k, that just isn’t going to be viable. We’ll wait to see adjustments there but yet another example of ‘what could have been’.

So Coop, I thank you for trying. Trust me when I say you may not care about PvP but we all have tried nonetheless.

Thank you, it really has felt like a very isolated battle. I even PvP a little bit sometimes, mostly in the form of going to Imperial City and farming telvar stones from daedra, and then defending myself from attacks. So SOME PvP stuff is a little relevant to me but I know better than to fight for it. So yeah, on top of everything, now I can't even use WW for telvar farming because of Battle Spirit nerfs, which is where I get my tri-stat glyphs from for my tank and solo builds.

I've not seen any trial or other high end PvE folks say that werewolf will be now welcome, or any positive surprise of letting them in, and why should they? Single Target Melee Damage is not great except for boss burning and every class can do that but better, usually have range, or cleave or something else. And yeah, just thinking about how bad our werewolf cleave skill is makes me feel sad.

It all feels hopeless at this point. I didn't ask for werewolf to be one bar, but that's not changing. However, I don't think this means we deserve to suck forever, like we already have been.

coop500 · May 1

Wuuffyy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

"It also goes to show how difficult it is to balance WW while it still has all of these complicated interactions with other game systems, be that Class Masteries, Mythics, etc. I am not sure if it is possible to actually achieve.

I mean, they do this to themselves and that doesn’t mean we should be removed completely from everything. I don’t want a Vengeance werewolf either.

We create this convoluted ult sustain system (which you’d think would merit us getting some kind of ult-level strength) that is either non consequential (Packleader) or down right over bearing when not always in an active fight or near corpse (Berserker)… completely nerf our main spammable from live, but then give it a guaranteed status effect…

Then- they release a mythic that gives you random status effects and status effect damage based on your ultimate (I mean come on here haha)

~~~

THEN, also release class masteries at THE EXACT SAME time as werewolf (which are… just really strong class passives for underperforming class combinations) but don’t adjust for werewolf 5, choose 2 and allow it to benefit that way in a more contained fashion

~~~

AND THEN you put all of this in a vacuum of dueling with no ability to test in anything remotely realistic like small scale/large scale because, you know, Vengeance only werewolf…

and you get these woefully skewed parses and legitimately downright broken interactions. But only because it was arguably self-inflicted.

///

@YandereGirlfriend - I mean come on, we never even had a chance to play ball when you think about it it 🎾

I also foretold this. The second I saw that Class Masteries were being added right at the same time as Werewolf Rework, I knew we were ***. That's too much new power being thrown about for anyone (within a few weeks) to properly grasp and understand the longterm health and interaction of the game without heavy nerfs on everything.

VinnyGambini · May 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CusEvo5SMDg

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Can you please watch and analyze this video regarding PvP templar state? It really nicely summarize how templar lacks damage, and that it can only kill good players with 500 balorgh.

Prionyx · May 1

React wrote: »

Glad to hear the team is continuing to monitor PVP balance on the PTS! It's been great seing all the changes based on feedback these past few PTS cycles. Hope we'll be seeing an adjustment to the conservation of energy passive's healing next week!

Looking forward to seeing next week's changes and continuing to provide feedback.

Changes based on feeback? Like nerfing NB every week while everyone were saying NB needs buffs?

coop500 · May 1

Prionyx wrote: »

React wrote: »

Glad to hear the team is continuing to monitor PVP balance on the PTS! It's been great seing all the changes based on feedback these past few PTS cycles. Hope we'll be seeing an adjustment to the conservation of energy passive's healing next week!

Looking forward to seeing next week's changes and continuing to provide feedback.

Changes based on feeback? Like nerfing NB every week while everyone were saying NB needs buffs?

React just specifically cared about killing WW and got what he wanted, sadly he doesn't actually care about true balance. I'm sorry about your class, as someone who has a pureclass NB too, that's sad to see.

Wuuffyy · May 1

coop500 wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

React wrote: »

Glad to hear the team is continuing to monitor PVP balance on the PTS! It's been great seing all the changes based on feedback these past few PTS cycles. Hope we'll be seeing an adjustment to the conservation of energy passive's healing next week!

Looking forward to seeing next week's changes and continuing to provide feedback.

Changes based on feeback? Like nerfing NB every week while everyone were saying NB needs buffs?

React just specifically cared about killing WW and got what he wanted, sadly he doesn't actually care about true balance. I'm sorry about your class, as someone who has a pureclass NB too, that's sad to see.

They didn’t even do that right. He and group advocated for nerfs but never specified anything meaningful so they nerfed the whole kit in the most random ways (aside from rip and tear heal nerf) and things like Signet remain at large. So blinded by rage of werewolf being ‘meta’/one bar/both that not even proper information could be relayed. Just equally random parses with no other information other than whatever the CMX shows… which isn’t as much as he thinks it is, clearly.

Erickson9610 · May 1

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

To set expectations, though, unfortunately it isn't something we're able to do at this time (though we would genuinely love to.)

Hi @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, would it be possible to get a Scribing Grimoire for Werewolf? I wrote about it when Scribing was first on the PTS two years ago, and I made another thread here regarding how it might be designed differently after the Werewolf refresh.

I ask this because new skills require animations, and the strict animation budget you describe concerns me. I initially thought we'd for sure get both a Werewolf and a Vampire Grimoire sometime after Vampire gets an unannounced refresh, but now I think this may not be the case.

WuffyCerulei · May 1

For werewolf, PLEASE USE BATTLE SPIRIT TO BALANCE THINGS!! Don’t affect PVE because pvpers are the loudest and whiniest out of the two playstyles. Using Battle Spirit keeps things in check ONLY for PVP.

Wuuffyy · May 1

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

For werewolf, PLEASE USE BATTLE SPIRIT TO BALANCE THINGS!! Don’t affect PVE because pvpers are the loudest and whiniest out of the two playstyles. Using Battle Spirit keeps things in check ONLY for PVP.

Wdym, those PvPers also advocating for PvE to be nerfed too. They're quite literally adjusting the weapon/spell damage passives for PvE (nerfing it). If anything, even if it's ultimately pointless- we should try and not alienate any given playstyle for werewolf. It just makes it that much easier for anyone screaming 'nerf' to be heard.

Zastrix · May 2

Yeah, I don't see the point of nerfing nightblade in PvE. Pureclass nightblades aren't really doing that high damage when compared to other pure classes, like sorc. If all things, they should get additional buffs actually. I went from live to PTS, went from 125k to 165k which is a big jump in power but sorcs can push 220k which is... yeah...

PvP-wise they should get buffs as well, at least that's from what I saw in other posts -- I don't really play PvP.

Like, go wild with nerfing the passives once the class has been rebalanced. Now's not the time when there's a huge gap if maximum values.

Mgic · May 2

I really truly hope that people understand Werewolf should never, in any world have comparable damage to a full glass canon PvE DDs? and based on what I'm reading in this thread, some people genuinely are:

specifically "an acceptable choice alongside all the cracked meta builds that will be dishing out 180K-200K DPS"

FYI

What exactly would it mean for PvP if you create a Werewolf with comparable damage to PvE DDs but with built in Healing and Stuns and Gap Closers etc etc etc... it'd absolutely warp the meta, to the point where everyone would need to be built to survive you or join you.

This was essentially the case in Week 1, I built a 70k Magicka Sorcerer build, using 2 Shields and the new Class Mastery to heal on skill cast. This build was almost immortal against the live meta setups, my friend built a Werewolf that shredded it in seconds. Over 12k DPS in PvP while remaining tanky enough to survive my combos, it was absolutely obscene. No Streak or Shield could do anything against it. I've been playing ESO PvP for almost a decade and it was the strongest thing I have *ever* seen, at least under our conditions.

If findings here are true that the numbers on PTS are now worse than Live, then it's an issue. But nobody should be campaigning to have it become comparable to the strongest PvE Damage Dealers. It's my opinion that it should be more akin to Oakensoul Builds or Ayleid Torc, which many many players use daily to deal over 100k DPS in PvE, absolutely enough for the vast majority of content.

Wuuffyy · May 2

Mgic wrote: »

If findings here are true that the numbers on PTS are now worse than Live, then it's an issue. But nobody should be campaigning to have it become comparable to the strongest PvE Damage Dealers. It's my opinion that it should be more akin to Oakensoul Builds or Ayleid Torc, which many many players use daily to deal over 100k DPS in PvE, absolutely enough for the vast majority of content.

They are adjusting the damage scaling that they have in PvE. The PvE numbers =/ to the PvP numbers at all, both for 'on monsters' and difference in gear. I also just wanted to say this account is a private-d, soul-shriven account with a 4-letter tag, just an observation I'm making. Hello ~mgic~!

Turtle_Bot · May 2

Zastrix wrote: »

Yeah, I don't see the point of nerfing nightblade in PvE. Pureclass nightblades aren't really doing that high damage when compared to other pure classes, like sorc. If all things, they should get additional buffs actually. I went from live to PTS, went from 125k to 165k which is a big jump in power but sorcs can push 220k which is... yeah...

PvP-wise they should get buffs as well, at least that's from what I saw in other posts -- I don't really play PvP.

Like, go wild with nerfing the passives once the class has been rebalanced. Now's not the time when there's a huge gap if maximum values.

Enough with the misinformation from salty NB mains that just rely on clickbait youtube parses that are cheesed into oblivion to reach unrealistic numbers that are never seen in real content....

Sorcs haven't been able to push 220k since week 1 of PTS (pre-nerf) and that was only using a specific parse cheesing build that is not viable in actual content and it was already over nerfed in week 3.

More parses were done post week 3 nerf and sorc barely parsed 170k DPS using the full cheese build (55k DPS loss using the full cheese build), additional parses were done without that cheese build and sorc was parsing 140-150k DPS (15k to 25k less than your NB parse).

I really wish ZOS had never released the trial dummies, those things have been the absolute worst thing to use as a metric for balancing classes because they give completely unrealistic parsing conditions that doesn't match up with real content. But players throw around dummy parses like they are actual in-game trial runs and use the most unrealistic and cheesed youtube click bait parse numbers as reasons to call for nerfs to other classes without any understanding of how that number was cheesed and why it is not a good comparison of how the class actually performs in real content.

Zastrix · May 2

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

Yeah, I don't see the point of nerfing nightblade in PvE. Pureclass nightblades aren't really doing that high damage when compared to other pure classes, like sorc. If all things, they should get additional buffs actually. I went from live to PTS, went from 125k to 165k which is a big jump in power but sorcs can push 220k which is... yeah...

PvP-wise they should get buffs as well, at least that's from what I saw in other posts -- I don't really play PvP.

Like, go wild with nerfing the passives once the class has been rebalanced. Now's not the time when there's a huge gap if maximum values.

Enough with the misinformation from salty NB mains that just rely on clickbait youtube parses that are cheesed into oblivion to reach unrealistic numbers that are never seen in real content....

Sorcs haven't been able to push 220k since week 1 of PTS (pre-nerf) and that was only using a specific parse cheesing build that is not viable in actual content and it was already over nerfed in week 3.

More parses were done post week 3 nerf and sorc barely parsed 170k DPS using the full cheese build (55k DPS loss using the full cheese build), additional parses were done without that cheese build and sorc was parsing 140-150k DPS (15k to 25k less than your NB parse).

I really wish ZOS had never released the trial dummies, those things have been the absolute worst thing to use as a metric for balancing classes because they give completely unrealistic parsing conditions that doesn't match up with real content. But players throw around dummy parses like they are actual in-game trial runs and use the most unrealistic and cheesed youtube click bait parse numbers as reasons to call for nerfs to other classes without any understanding of how that number was cheesed and why it is not a good comparison of how the class actually performs in real content.

While true for the sorc parse, the initial post stated that there will be an increase in damage for sorcs while there will be a decrease of damage in nightblades, so the gap starting next week will be even wider, rough estimation just based on the w/s damage would be a ~10k loss, so the gap will at the lowest be 25k to 35k, not taking into account the buffs sorcs will receive.

The point wasn't that much of *buff nightblades* as to at least keep them at the current level.

Zastrix · May 2

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I really wish ZOS had never released the trial dummies, those things have been the absolute worst thing to use as a metric for balancing classes because they give completely unrealistic parsing conditions that doesn't match up with real content. But players throw around dummy parses like they are actual in-game trial runs and use the most unrealistic and cheesed youtube click bait parse numbers as reasons to call for nerfs to other classes without any understanding of how that number was cheesed and why it is not a good comparison of how the class actually performs in real content.

From what I know, at least for the last 5 years, they pretty much did represent the power difference also in content too (specifically talking about trials). A skilled player able to achieve high values on a parse dummy will also be able to update the build according to actual content requirements -- except for HA builds.

ZhuJiuyin · May 2

Zastrix wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I really wish ZOS had never released the trial dummies, those things have been the absolute worst thing to use as a metric for balancing classes because they give completely unrealistic parsing conditions that doesn't match up with real content. But players throw around dummy parses like they are actual in-game trial runs and use the most unrealistic and cheesed youtube click bait parse numbers as reasons to call for nerfs to other classes without any understanding of how that number was cheesed and why it is not a good comparison of how the class actually performs in real content.

From what I know, at least for the last 5 years, they pretty much did represent the power difference also in content too (specifically talking about trials). A skilled player able to achieve high values on a parse dummy will also be able to update the build according to actual content requirements -- except for HA builds.

No, they can't. Before the u46 was released, there were rumors of a sorc achieving over 180K damage (the highest at the time) using Overload. But we all know that in actual PvE, the sorc's usage rate is still very low, tied for last place with the warden.