SlagasaurusRex wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

After feeling too bleh from COVID for the last like week and a half to bother with the forums, I come back.

@React
Let me ask something and this is a genuine question, but do you truly think the average player is going to be hitting these numbers? The whole reason U35 happened was because ZOS nerfed damage thanks to the top percent of players, in an effort to "lower the ceiling" of DPS and accessibility to content. But all it did was nerf the average player nowhere near able to hit those numbers while those top players just kept on hitting ridiculous numbers in other ways.
.

Hope you feel better man. Since overworld PVP is free-flowing and there really isn't such a thing as skill-based matchmaking, something being overtuned at the highest level still is problematic for game health/balance because the high-skilled players aren't only interacting with other high-skilled players. They're interacting with everyone.

Thanks, I'm over the main stuff but now I'm dealing with the typical easily fatigued thing COVID usually leaves people with. Long COVID man, the gift that keeps on giving lol.

And yeah, it's true that the highest level players are interacting with everyone. But trying to balance things around what a small portion of the playerbase can do only ever negatively affects the people who CAN'T hit those levels. Nerf something because the upper echelon of players can do something, and you wind up weakening the average player a LOT more. Because those top players will always find a way to bounce back, while average players will struggle to get back to where they were.

React wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

After feeling too bleh from COVID for the last like week and a half to bother with the forums, I come back.

@React
Let me ask something and this is a genuine question, but do you truly think the average player is going to be hitting these numbers? The whole reason U35 happened was because ZOS nerfed damage thanks to the top percent of players, in an effort to "lower the ceiling" of DPS and accessibility to content. But all it did was nerf the average player nowhere near able to hit those numbers while those top players just kept on hitting ridiculous numbers in other ways.

This right here is one of the biggest problems with this whole thing, in my opinion. Compared to your average "two bar" meta or pure class PVP build, this new WW has probably half the mechanical complexity required to achieve the top end results. There is only one bar of abilities to manage. This reduces complexity for the obvious reason of not having a second bar to deal with, but also comes with the benefit of never being on the "wrong bar" to deal damage or heal. You're always on the correct bar to respond to incoming pressure/burst, and always on the correct bar to continue dealing damage. This allows you to be very efficient at both of these things.

The "drawback" of WW always was the lack of a solid toolkit due to the limited functionality on the skills themselves, as well as the buffs available. With this rework, the developers have shoehorned a TON of buffs and functionality into that same bar of skills. The end result is that much of the "drawback" has now been removed, and you're left with an extremely strong spec with less mechanical complexity to worry about.

As far as I can tell from a PVP perspective, there are more or less only two real drawbacks remaining with WW which are a lack of cross healing, and a lack of AOE. I'd argue these are more than made up for with how strong the rest of the toolkit has become, especially when class mastery passives are added to the mix.

As my very first comment stated and based on the week 3 adjustments, I think all of this would be well and good if the class mastery passives did not work in WW form. Reworked WW would still be very strong, especially when subclassed properly which is something we obviously have not been testing on the PTS. But not the absurdity that is reworked WW + class mastery passives.

I don't think there's a problem in one-bar builds being as strong as 2bar builds, simply because the people who are in the top will always be dealing out high damage regardless. Making 1bar builds more viable just means people who have below average or average ability would be more capable of doing content, which I'd think both PvEers and PvPers would want. If people can do solid damage or tank or healing regardless of if they have a 1 or 2bar build, PvEers would have a bigger pool of people to do content with. And if more people are able to feel good about their abilities in PvP, it means more people getting into Cyro or doing duels.

As for playing WW or not, there are any number of reasons someone might not decide to be one in PvP. They may not want to mess with keeping WW form up in combat (especially since in Cyro at least I think the 'in combat' bug is still alive and well). They may not want to be restricted to one bar. They might find the playstyle boring. There are other reasons I could probably come up with but those are just off the top of my head.

However, nothing in your post really answered my question; are these numbers that the top PvPers able to hit even without Mastery Passives or Sets like Rele feasible for the average PvPer if they go WW? Are these high numbers something your run of the mill player will be able to consistently pull off even if their skill and/or ability levels aren't up there with those like Pelican?

Health based heal scaling is not and has never been a problem for werewolf. Why does anyone think that big weapon damage should mean big healing? If anything they should be inverse.

Lower that heal on bite. Return the burst heal to its previous value and add a hot and cross heal mechanic like everyone else has.

New Werewolf is not going to survive in open world being as slow as it is and having that baby burst heal.

Arunei wrote: »

I don't think there's a problem in one-bar builds being as strong as 2bar builds, simply because the people who are in the top will always be dealing out high damage regardless. Making 1bar builds more viable just means people who have below average or average ability would be more capable of doing content, which I'd think both PvEers and PvPers would want. If people can do solid damage or tank or healing regardless of if they have a 1 or 2bar build, PvEers would have a bigger pool of people to do content with. And if more people are able to feel good about their abilities in PvP, it means more people getting into Cyro or doing duels.

The issue is that this isn't a PVE argument, where the balance of an individual spec doesn't really impact anyone else's experience. In PVP, it matters when something is too strong because it has the potential to negatively impact other people's experiences when they're forced into dealing with it regularly. In the case of this PTS WW, we're looking at an extremely toxic outlier that enables things like having 50k HP with more damage and healing than a player putting in twice the effort on a meta two-bar build. These aren't small margins either - this is a setup that is going to have 25-50% more damage than any of these builds, with 10-20k more HP, better mobility, better healing - while only using one bar.

Arunei wrote: »

However, nothing in your post really answered my question; are these numbers that the top PvPers able to hit even without Mastery Passives or Sets like Rele feasible for the average PvPer if they go WW? Are these high numbers something your run of the mill player will be able to consistently pull off even if their skill and/or ability levels aren't up there with those like Pelican?

I thought I explained well enough to answer, so that is my fault. To be direct; these results are incredibly easy to replicate. That is the nature of a one bar build - you don't need to be pelican ESO to put on the correct build and get very similar results to the ones demonstrated in the post on page 18.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

However, nothing in your post really answered my question; are these numbers that the top PvPers able to hit even without Mastery Passives or Sets like Rele feasible for the average PvPer? Are these high numbers something your run of the mill player will be able to consistently pull off even if their skill and/or ability levels aren't up there with those like Pelican?

They're using Signet now. Look for anything where there are multiple 'strange' status procs that cannot be sourced normal in werewolf's kit. It quite literally never ends... and you find out from the grape vine as all we get is post CMX once every couple of hours with 'werewolf still OP' and no information on literally anything again.

I am actually SO happy I did that comparison to live. I provided a controlled test and all and that demonstrates this is a net nerf for core-kit PvP werewolf damage outside of the whole 'sorc class mastery'/signet/huntsman mythic in duel AND a significant nerf to healing when not on target.

Don't forget any time you see 'large health' and 'large armor', they are using armor pots in the duel. If they were to curb some of the health-based healing by converting it to damage-based healing in PvP... you wouldn't have these potentially toxic interaction as you'd have weaker heals as you stacked more health... and a basic requirement to some mag pots when fighting more than one player (so open world, etc.).

Wuuffyy, I really do not understand what argument you're trying to present at this point.

We've presented a number of different builds, mythics, class mastery passives, and classes that are achieving these results. Yet you're still saying that they're "exploiting broken mechanics", which is just flat out untrue. Equipping a strong build that compliments the strengths of your spec is exactly how ESO PVP has always worked. We're using these (many) different things because they are what provide the top level results - these are the EXACT builds you can expect to be dealing with if WW goes live in this state.

Using a terrible build or being naked are not good ways to get a feel for how strong the spec actually is. The reality is the best way to test is to do real fights against other skilled players, then to provide the CMX pages and videos to show what those encounters actually look like. I think @SlagasaurusRex said it very well in his comment below.

SlagasaurusRex wrote: »

Its not unreasonable to extrapolate general power levels in other PVP contexts from 1v1 examples. The refrain of "not everything is a duel" is getting somewhat tiring and and less persuasive every time its repeated. I also do not think it necessarily helps your case. If WW is being able to output 10K dps with 50K health in a 1v1 context, imagine what three or four of them together will do in a BG or in Cyrodiil. Far from an instance where the problem might be unique to dueling, I think duels might understate the potential gameplay implications unless other people have compelling reasons as to why it might not.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Health based heal scaling is not and has never been a problem for werewolf.

I'm sorry @dark_hunterxmg , but if you think this then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Having 50k+ HP in PVP shouldn't be a thing; but having your entire defensive toolkit scaling exponentially the higher you push that HP whilst having such a minimal loss of damage that you're capable of dealing 10k+ dps to players... I simply do not understand how any rational individual who is being honest with themselves can look at that and say "Yep, looks fine to me".

@ReactSlower


How do you know the 2 bar player is putting in twice the effort? what if they had an add-on that told them everything or macros enabled? you don't know do you?

and if you are so concerned about 50k hp builds, have you taken a look at the 70k hp builds in Vengeance? I understand your concerns that health isn't high enough and damage is limited, so we can definitely fix all of this by pursuing a more balanced PVP meta with the Vengeance model, it will solve all of the PTS PVP player's concerns about unequal health, damage inconsistencies, and toxic outlier builds that quite frankly anyone can slot on their character and call it 'overpowered' or 'toxic' but the real toxicity is the imbalances of sets that players are continually abusing.

Together we can fix these concerns you have raised. What do you think @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Erin ? Should players be able to create these toxic wacky builds that are continually ruining players experiences and causing them to cry on the forums over 18 pages about an unrelated topic?

For my part, we could fix all of these concerns by rolling out Vengeance PVP templates to Cyrodiil, Battlegrounds, Imperial City, and Dueling, and we can even enable group duels too so now everyone can enjoy and play on an equal playing field.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React, I provided the actual values and cadences provided by the toolkit itself. You wouldn’t know because all you seem to be capable of is dropping some random parse on glob-knows-who doing who-knows-what for resistances and what-kinda-cheese and then saying ‘but I’m right’ and ‘you’re all wrong’.

Why don't you be his opponent then?

huskandhunger wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React, I provided the actual values and cadences provided by the toolkit itself. You wouldn’t know because all you seem to be capable of is dropping some random parse on glob-knows-who doing who-knows-what for resistances and what-kinda-cheese and then saying ‘but I’m right’ and ‘you’re all wrong’.

Why don't you be his opponent then?

or you perhaps? you are clearly enamored, you chase React around the forums like a lover

He was the opponent in one of the parses/screenshots. And in many before as well.

Dracane wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React, I provided the actual values and cadences provided by the toolkit itself. You wouldn’t know because all you seem to be capable of is dropping some random parse on glob-knows-who doing who-knows-what for resistances and what-kinda-cheese and then saying ‘but I’m right’ and ‘you’re all wrong’.

Why don't you be his opponent then?

or you perhaps? you are clearly enamored, you chase React around the forums like a lover

He was the opponent in one of the parses/screenshots. And in many before as well.

would you like to duel me? I could even make you a werewolf too, just put your hand in my mouth

Hey hitting a single button to swap bars is REALLY HARD you guys!

This argument is so tired and beat to death. On live I have always found the utility of a second bar significantly easier than not having one. That's a whole 5+1 extra skills full of utility and survivability plus a second 5-piece or Arena weapon set to proc and sit on while swapping back to front bar. Never have I EVER thought "man, I wish I could use LESS skills." It's always been "I wish I had ONE MORE SLOT."

These folks are arguing like they're forced to fight with a hand tied behind their back, when in reality they are fighting with both hands while a second set of hands is holding a bazooka for when they need it.

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Can we please stop the bickering back and forth? I'd love to get back to actual constructive feedback for our combat/balance devs.

I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh.

Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Werewolf is designed as a melee brawler with strengths and drawbacks. Simply put, melee range is Werewolf's domain. If you are in melee range fighting a Werewolf, you are not fighting it correctly.

Werewolf cannot attack you from range, only gap close into melee range. Werewolf cannot purge negative effects like snares and damage over time, and has a limited Magicka pool to burn on self healing when there is no target in their melee range to gain health from.

Certain Class kits are built around being in melee range (like Templar and Dragonknight), but the human form always has the flexibility to build differently. There are ranged alternatives to those playstyles, and you can even swap between melee and ranged with the loadout of your two skill bars. Werewolf is permanently stuck as this melee brawler archetype.


Since we cannot test Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil on the PTS, we aren't seeing the full picture. You're expected to be in melee range in a duel, so Werewolf is going to shine in that environment. Once we see Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil, you'll find how easy it is to counter them.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Can we please stop the bickering back and forth? I'd love to get back to actual constructive feedback for our combat/balance devs.

I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh.

Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Werewolf is designed as a melee brawler with strengths and drawbacks. Simply put, melee range is Werewolf's domain. If you are in melee range fighting a Werewolf, you are not fighting it correctly.

Werewolf cannot attack you from range, only gap close into melee range. Werewolf cannot purge negative effects like snares and damage over time, and has a limited Magicka pool to burn on self healing when there is no target in their melee range to gain health from.

Certain Class kits are built around being in melee range (like Templar and Dragonknight), but the human form always has the flexibility to build differently. There are ranged alternatives to those playstyles, and you can even swap between melee and ranged with the loadout of your two skill bars. Werewolf is permanently stuck as this melee brawler archetype.


Since we cannot test Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil on the PTS, we aren't seeing the full picture. You're expected to be in melee range in a duel, so Werewolf is going to shine in that environment. Once we see Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil, you'll find how easy it is to counter them.

Werewolves's healing via Bloodclaws scales per target struck, doesn't it? So Werewolves survival should be even better against more than one target. There aren't many skills who scale their healing in such a way.

hoangdz wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

just put your hand in my mouth

A bit too kinky there buddy

Hey now I'm just talking about meeting in Bangkorai in the woods to offer a bite at the shrine, let's not get carried away now

huskandhunger wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Can we please stop the bickering back and forth? I'd love to get back to actual constructive feedback for our combat/balance devs.

I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh.

Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Werewolf is designed as a melee brawler with strengths and drawbacks. Simply put, melee range is Werewolf's domain. If you are in melee range fighting a Werewolf, you are not fighting it correctly.

Werewolf cannot attack you from range, only gap close into melee range. Werewolf cannot purge negative effects like snares and damage over time, and has a limited Magicka pool to burn on self healing when there is no target in their melee range to gain health from.

Certain Class kits are built around being in melee range (like Templar and Dragonknight), but the human form always has the flexibility to build differently. There are ranged alternatives to those playstyles, and you can even swap between melee and ranged with the loadout of your two skill bars. Werewolf is permanently stuck as this melee brawler archetype.


Since we cannot test Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil on the PTS, we aren't seeing the full picture. You're expected to be in melee range in a duel, so Werewolf is going to shine in that environment. Once we see Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil, you'll find how easy it is to counter them.

Werewolves's healing via Bloodclaws scales per target struck, doesn't it? So Werewolves survival should be even better against more than one target. There aren't many skills who scale their healing in such a way.

It's the same value per target which is very similar to what already exists in the game in the form of the necromancer Scythe ability

ZoS even put a cap of 6 as well on the PTS maybe we should remove the cap, what do you think?

huskandhunger wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Can we please stop the bickering back and forth? I'd love to get back to actual constructive feedback for our combat/balance devs.

I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh.

Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Werewolf is designed as a melee brawler with strengths and drawbacks. Simply put, melee range is Werewolf's domain. If you are in melee range fighting a Werewolf, you are not fighting it correctly.

Werewolf cannot attack you from range, only gap close into melee range. Werewolf cannot purge negative effects like snares and damage over time, and has a limited Magicka pool to burn on self healing when there is no target in their melee range to gain health from.

Certain Class kits are built around being in melee range (like Templar and Dragonknight), but the human form always has the flexibility to build differently. There are ranged alternatives to those playstyles, and you can even swap between melee and ranged with the loadout of your two skill bars. Werewolf is permanently stuck as this melee brawler archetype.


Since we cannot test Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil on the PTS, we aren't seeing the full picture. You're expected to be in melee range in a duel, so Werewolf is going to shine in that environment. Once we see Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil, you'll find how easy it is to counter them.

Werewolves's healing via Bloodclaws scales per target struck, doesn't it? So Werewolves survival should be even better against more than one target. There aren't many skills who scale their healing in such a way.

It's the same value per target which is very similar to what already exists in the game in the form of the necromancer Scythe ability

ZoS even put a cap of 6 as well on the PTS maybe we should remove the cap, what do you think?

Yes, and I did say that it exists, although not often. My point stands. Werewolves's survivability is scalable, hence not confined to mere duels.

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

1 vs 1 means nothing. When duels were added, it was a mistake. There are, thankfully, no 1 vs 1 competitions in the game. Why are you running around solo in a war zone unless you’re really good, really stupid, or just don’t care?

A werewolf ball group vs a non-werewolf ball group will lose everytime. The werewolves will jump in and melt to the stacked non-werewolf ult dump. Werewolf needs major defences added to it.

Yes I could not agree more about the defense part, and the devs could start by returning the unique 10k armor it used to have.

Dracane wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Can we please stop the bickering back and forth? I'd love to get back to actual constructive feedback for our combat/balance devs.

I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh.

Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Werewolf is designed as a melee brawler with strengths and drawbacks. Simply put, melee range is Werewolf's domain. If you are in melee range fighting a Werewolf, you are not fighting it correctly.

Werewolf cannot attack you from range, only gap close into melee range. Werewolf cannot purge negative effects like snares and damage over time, and has a limited Magicka pool to burn on self healing when there is no target in their melee range to gain health from.

Certain Class kits are built around being in melee range (like Templar and Dragonknight), but the human form always has the flexibility to build differently. There are ranged alternatives to those playstyles, and you can even swap between melee and ranged with the loadout of your two skill bars. Werewolf is permanently stuck as this melee brawler archetype.


Since we cannot test Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil on the PTS, we aren't seeing the full picture. You're expected to be in melee range in a duel, so Werewolf is going to shine in that environment. Once we see Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil, you'll find how easy it is to counter them.

Werewolves's healing via Bloodclaws scales per target struck, doesn't it? So Werewolves survival should be even better against more than one target. There aren't many skills who scale their healing in such a way.

It's the same value per target which is very similar to what already exists in the game in the form of the necromancer Scythe ability

ZoS even put a cap of 6 as well on the PTS maybe we should remove the cap, what do you think?

huskandhunger wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Can we please stop the bickering back and forth? I'd love to get back to actual constructive feedback for our combat/balance devs.

I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh.

Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Werewolf is designed as a melee brawler with strengths and drawbacks. Simply put, melee range is Werewolf's domain. If you are in melee range fighting a Werewolf, you are not fighting it correctly.

Werewolf cannot attack you from range, only gap close into melee range. Werewolf cannot purge negative effects like snares and damage over time, and has a limited Magicka pool to burn on self healing when there is no target in their melee range to gain health from.

Certain Class kits are built around being in melee range (like Templar and Dragonknight), but the human form always has the flexibility to build differently. There are ranged alternatives to those playstyles, and you can even swap between melee and ranged with the loadout of your two skill bars. Werewolf is permanently stuck as this melee brawler archetype.


Since we cannot test Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil on the PTS, we aren't seeing the full picture. You're expected to be in melee range in a duel, so Werewolf is going to shine in that environment. Once we see Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil, you'll find how easy it is to counter them.

Werewolves's healing via Bloodclaws scales per target struck, doesn't it? So Werewolves survival should be even better against more than one target. There aren't many skills who scale their healing in such a way.

It's the same value per target which is very similar to what already exists in the game in the form of the necromancer Scythe ability

ZoS even put a cap of 6 as well on the PTS maybe we should remove the cap, what do you think?

Yes, and I did say that it exists, although not often. My point stands. Werewolves's survivability is scalable, hence not confined to mere duels.

Have you tried surviving as a werewolf vs.multiple 28m range attackers using bows and destruction staves and scribing abilities?

If you haven't tried it on the Live Version you should because PTS werewolf will still encounter the same problems and get mowed down just as fast in an actual combat setting in Cyro.

Duels are meaningless because they are confined to a small circle you cannot leave or you lose the duel. I actually think they should remove dueling from the game entirely, we are not an e-sports or competitive landscape, it's a fantasy game, let's not delude ourselves.

Duels are meaningless because they are confined to a small circle you cannot leave or you lose the duel. I actually think they should remove dueling from the game entirely, we are not an e-sports or competitive landscape, it's a fantasy game, let's not delude ourselves.

Honestly, I think this wouldn’t have a half bad idea. I thought that we were far removed on complaining about being cheesed in a duel but I guess that is still carrying weight for some reason in 2026.

If we are wanting to gut things over 1 v 1 potential (like running armor pots, hunstman, and the like) then I recommend disabling duels entirely so it’s no longer considered an ‘official medium of combat’. If you want to duel, you can visit ‘Imperial City’ or meet someone in Cyro like ‘the good ol’ days’. Should clean up Riften a bit which I think would be doing everyone a great service.

I wanted to say ‘but I don’t want all reworked classes to be nerfed over duels’… then I realized that @React praised DK from PTS to launch (and that is widely considered to be “OP” in PvP now) so I think it’s only really werewolf that must be impacted by them apparently. (ZOS this person has a CLEAR agenda with no attempt to hide it. Please be aware that there are more players than him and his friend group he duels with on PTS).

On yet another side note, I’ve went to Riften 2-3 times on PTS looking for duels and there isn’t a soul there. They quite literally set up together and pack up together apparently. I’m over it at this point but outside of health stacking especially, not much has really changed on werewolf for me in a positive way outside of the animations themselves and that’s unfortunate to be honest.

Again, we just have less burst than before and our dots are literal seconds long with worse tooltips on everything (proven; same gear on live and PTS; both characters could add the same gear through and through and the disparity would remain the same) yet this person is screaming in my ear telling me how werewolf actually needs to be gutted smh.

Dracane wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

1 vs 1 means nothing. When duels were added, it was a mistake. There are, thankfully, no 1 vs 1 competitions in the game. Why are you running around solo in a war zone unless you’re really good, really stupid, or just don’t care?

A werewolf ball group vs a non-werewolf ball group will lose everytime. The werewolves will jump in and melt to the stacked non-werewolf ult dump. Werewolf needs major defences added to it.

Yes I could not agree more about the defense part, and the devs could start by returning the unique 10k armor it used to have.

Dracane wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Can we please stop the bickering back and forth? I'd love to get back to actual constructive feedback for our combat/balance devs.

I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh.

Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Werewolf is designed as a melee brawler with strengths and drawbacks. Simply put, melee range is Werewolf's domain. If you are in melee range fighting a Werewolf, you are not fighting it correctly.

Werewolf cannot attack you from range, only gap close into melee range. Werewolf cannot purge negative effects like snares and damage over time, and has a limited Magicka pool to burn on self healing when there is no target in their melee range to gain health from.

Certain Class kits are built around being in melee range (like Templar and Dragonknight), but the human form always has the flexibility to build differently. There are ranged alternatives to those playstyles, and you can even swap between melee and ranged with the loadout of your two skill bars. Werewolf is permanently stuck as this melee brawler archetype.


Since we cannot test Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil on the PTS, we aren't seeing the full picture. You're expected to be in melee range in a duel, so Werewolf is going to shine in that environment. Once we see Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil, you'll find how easy it is to counter them.

Werewolves's healing via Bloodclaws scales per target struck, doesn't it? So Werewolves survival should be even better against more than one target. There aren't many skills who scale their healing in such a way.

It's the same value per target which is very similar to what already exists in the game in the form of the necromancer Scythe ability

ZoS even put a cap of 6 as well on the PTS maybe we should remove the cap, what do you think?

huskandhunger wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Can we please stop the bickering back and forth? I'd love to get back to actual constructive feedback for our combat/balance devs.

I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh.

Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Werewolf is designed as a melee brawler with strengths and drawbacks. Simply put, melee range is Werewolf's domain. If you are in melee range fighting a Werewolf, you are not fighting it correctly.

Werewolf cannot attack you from range, only gap close into melee range. Werewolf cannot purge negative effects like snares and damage over time, and has a limited Magicka pool to burn on self healing when there is no target in their melee range to gain health from.

Certain Class kits are built around being in melee range (like Templar and Dragonknight), but the human form always has the flexibility to build differently. There are ranged alternatives to those playstyles, and you can even swap between melee and ranged with the loadout of your two skill bars. Werewolf is permanently stuck as this melee brawler archetype.


Since we cannot test Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil on the PTS, we aren't seeing the full picture. You're expected to be in melee range in a duel, so Werewolf is going to shine in that environment. Once we see Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil, you'll find how easy it is to counter them.

Werewolves's healing via Bloodclaws scales per target struck, doesn't it? So Werewolves survival should be even better against more than one target. There aren't many skills who scale their healing in such a way.

It's the same value per target which is very similar to what already exists in the game in the form of the necromancer Scythe ability

ZoS even put a cap of 6 as well on the PTS maybe we should remove the cap, what do you think?

Yes, and I did say that it exists, although not often. My point stands. Werewolves's survivability is scalable, hence not confined to mere duels.

Have you tried surviving as a werewolf vs.multiple 28m range attackers using bows and destruction staves and scribing abilities?

If you haven't tried it on the Live Version you should because PTS werewolf will still encounter the same problems and get mowed down just as fast in an actual combat setting in Cyro.

Duels are meaningless because they are confined to a small circle you cannot leave or you lose the duel. I actually think they should remove dueling from the game entirely, we are not an e-sports or competitive landscape, it's a fantasy game, let's not delude ourselves.

No doubt. I see this being a problem for sure as for any pure melee build.

Except for melee Dragonknight which has 50% damage reduction vs. ranged attacks with their wings. They even are given snare removal and major expedition.

And this is why the spurious claims about Werewolf health and healing which are limited by range, high ability cost, and a lack of any similar tools that current Live Dragonknight can reach for are blatantly hypocritical and misleading.