U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf

Erickson9610

Wuuffyy wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Since we are making Werewolf Berserker bleed come down from the 4 seconds in PVE to the diminutive 1 second in PVP, could we simply replace this and find something more impactful for damage and thematic for a werewolf that is supposed to go on a rampage please? @ZOS_Kevin 1 second just seems not so noticeable at all I'm a afraid.

The recent nerfs really are missing the mark and I would suggest reverting them or coming up with alternative ideas and going back to the drawing board.

At this point I would rather have the werewolf kit on Live with the visuals and sound effects of the PTS.

This is a failure, werewolf players deserve better.

No hold on, I just thought of something legitimately funny to me.

Imagine a giant dog-like creature with dagger-like claws cuts you, you ~bleed~ for a forkin' singular second, and then you're just good-to-go like it was some sort of minor papercut.

Maybe the enemy gets infected with lycanthropy and the wounds immediately close as you'd expect with the supernatural regeneration that werewolves have? I think it'd be funny to force enemy players into their Werewolf form if they're a Werewolf in their human form.

Wuuffyy

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Since we are making Werewolf Berserker bleed come down from the 4 seconds in PVE to the diminutive 1 second in PVP, could we simply replace this and find something more impactful for damage and thematic for a werewolf that is supposed to go on a rampage please? @ZOS_Kevin 1 second just seems not so noticeable at all I'm a afraid.

The recent nerfs really are missing the mark and I would suggest reverting them or coming up with alternative ideas and going back to the drawing board.

At this point I would rather have the werewolf kit on Live with the visuals and sound effects of the PTS.

This is a failure, werewolf players deserve better.

No hold on, I just thought of something legitimately funny to me.

Imagine a giant dog-like creature with dagger-like claws cuts you, you ~bleed~ for a forkin' singular second, and then you're just good-to-go like it was some sort of minor papercut.

Maybe the enemy gets infected with lycanthropy and the wounds immediately close as you'd expect with the supernatural regeneration that werewolves have? I think it'd be funny to force enemy players into their Werewolf form if they're a Werewolf in their human form.

Imagine the SHEER difficulty of feeding your bloodlust when the second you touch your prey- they become a full-fledged, regenerative werewolf

huskandhunger

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Since we are making Werewolf Berserker bleed come down from the 4 seconds in PVE to the diminutive 1 second in PVP, could we simply replace this and find something more impactful for damage and thematic for a werewolf that is supposed to go on a rampage please? @ZOS_Kevin 1 second just seems not so noticeable at all I'm a afraid.

The recent nerfs really are missing the mark and I would suggest reverting them or coming up with alternative ideas and going back to the drawing board.

At this point I would rather have the werewolf kit on Live with the visuals and sound effects of the PTS.

This is a failure, werewolf players deserve better.

Pretty sure you're just theorycrafting out of pocket here.

Wait for the CMXs and actual data to come in before concluding that something is "dead".

don't put words in my mouth

Erickson9610

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Since we are making Werewolf Berserker bleed come down from the 4 seconds in PVE to the diminutive 1 second in PVP, could we simply replace this and find something more impactful for damage and thematic for a werewolf that is supposed to go on a rampage please? @ZOS_Kevin 1 second just seems not so noticeable at all I'm a afraid.

The recent nerfs really are missing the mark and I would suggest reverting them or coming up with alternative ideas and going back to the drawing board.

At this point I would rather have the werewolf kit on Live with the visuals and sound effects of the PTS.

This is a failure, werewolf players deserve better.

No hold on, I just thought of something legitimately funny to me.

Imagine a giant dog-like creature with dagger-like claws cuts you, you ~bleed~ for a forkin' singular second, and then you're just good-to-go like it was some sort of minor papercut.

Maybe the enemy gets infected with lycanthropy and the wounds immediately close as you'd expect with the supernatural regeneration that werewolves have? I think it'd be funny to force enemy players into their Werewolf form if they're a Werewolf in their human form.

Imagine the SHEER difficulty of feeding your bloodlust when the second you touch your prey- they become a full-fledged, regenerative werewolf

This happened to a friend of mine when playing with a werewolf mod for BG3. He used the bite attack on an enemy and then a few turns later was taken aback by the enemy suddenly transforming into a werewolf and continuing to attack him, haha! I've always wondered what the policy was for werewolves who want to eat someone but that person gets infected and transforms before the werewolf is able to eat them.

I definitely feel that we should have some form of "forced transformation" for Werewolves in this game. It's not really an uncontrollable curse if you can avoid transformation by never slotting the Ultimate. I think it would be really cool for roleplaying purposes if in overland zones (not instanced PvE or PvP content) you'd feel a transformation coming on when the moons are full, so you'd have to run away from whatever town you're in before it's too late. It'd be a bit more like how Werewolf worked in Daggerfall and Morrowind, except that you're still encouraged to willingly transform like in Skyrim.

coop500

Wuuffyy wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

luckiestlycan wrote: »

Honestly, from what I've seen I honestly don't think werewolf needed to get nerfed so soon, it sounds more like Conservative Energy needed the nerf; I don't want to feel like I have to play a Sorc Werewolf to be an effective Werewolf.
And Rip and Tear getting it's healing brutalized was not desired, like atleast to me, having good self survivability feels incredibly thematic for Werewolf.

Yeah the nerf to Rip and Tear is a shame. I need to test it in the IA but I suspect it's gonna be rough.

Solo PvE werewolves matter too.

I also feel like the main issue wasn't with Rip and Tear being overpowered (i mean, maybe a little, but not this much) but the fact the other morph doesn't have enough going for it to be worth taking.

It's okay. Did you notice they used this as an excuse to say the morph with horrible passives options now 'increases execute scaling' smh.

*I'm simply done wasting my ~virtual~ breath debating, I'm going low effort too, let's gooooo!

I saw that lol. Like maybe the other morph could just use something interesting for it? It could even be a good way to bring back Defile, for the sake of PvP.

Alchimiste1

Wuuffyy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Pretty sure you're just theorycrafting out of pocket here.

Wait for the CMXs and actual data to come in before concluding that something is "dead".

Can you just not? Like actually just not? You got the equivalent of 'your word'. Haven't you wreaked enough damage with it? Why not use that effort and ~vocal~ prowess to also suggest ways to sidegrade werewolf power elsewhere that they can use it?

Listen to me, they took my berserker dot on live (where EVERYONE agrees werewolf is atrocious), nerfed its damage scaling by ~30% wep damage (and an amount for stam), made it 1 second in duration (a 75% percent nerf in duration), and then made it take a second to apply.

I want to say 'I feel like there isn't a reason to use berserker (the most iconic, bleed-centric, identifying version of werewolf) AT ALL in PvP anymore outside of a 1 v 1', where I can nearly perfect parse someone to death (and because sustain outside of a constant fight/with corspes is still RUFF)... BUT, I legitimately feel that if I say that I am REMOTELY serious, this team will simply find a reason to GUT Packleader there to somehow make it worse than berserker rather than undo ANY harm to the berserker itself.

It's going to REMAIN GOOD by whatever number you pull from thy cheek-a-lings in a duel because it STILL has access to SORC DAMAGE and SUSTAIN masteries that even SORC is overperforming with EVERYWHERE. I just HOPE this is somehow a 100 to 0, incredibly harsh gambit where they are testing to see the impact of sorc masteries (because they nerfed Pyrebrand interaction with werewolf indirectly essentially) and if they decide to 'flip them off' we can have some LOVE back elsewhere- but I'm sure I'm just being naive.

whoa, just take it easy man

Wuuffyy

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Pretty sure you're just theorycrafting out of pocket here.

Wait for the CMXs and actual data to come in before concluding that something is "dead".

Can you just not? Like actually just not? You got the equivalent of 'your word'. Haven't you wreaked enough damage with it? Why not use that effort and ~vocal~ prowess to also suggest ways to sidegrade werewolf power elsewhere that they can use it?

Listen to me, they took my berserker dot on live (where EVERYONE agrees werewolf is atrocious), nerfed its damage scaling by ~30% wep damage (and an amount for stam), made it 1 second in duration (a 75% percent nerf in duration), and then made it take a second to apply.

I want to say 'I feel like there isn't a reason to use berserker (the most iconic, bleed-centric, identifying version of werewolf) AT ALL in PvP anymore outside of a 1 v 1', where I can nearly perfect parse someone to death (and because sustain outside of a constant fight/with corspes is still RUFF)... BUT, I legitimately feel that if I say that I am REMOTELY serious, this team will simply find a reason to GUT Packleader there to somehow make it worse than berserker rather than undo ANY harm to the berserker itself.

It's going to REMAIN GOOD by whatever number you pull from thy cheek-a-lings in a duel because it STILL has access to SORC DAMAGE and SUSTAIN masteries that even SORC is overperforming with EVERYWHERE. I just HOPE this is somehow a 100 to 0, incredibly harsh gambit where they are testing to see the impact of sorc masteries (because they nerfed Pyrebrand interaction with werewolf indirectly essentially) and if they decide to 'flip them off' we can have some LOVE back elsewhere- but I'm sure I'm just being naive.

whoa, just take it easy man

The claws are out, awoooooo or something adjacent.

Wuuffyy

Vulkunne wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ACTUAL WEREWOLF FEEDBACK

A few more things:

1) Werewolves are still unable to pass the Tarcyr fight in March of Sacrifices. That fight has crouching/sneaking as a requirement. Since Werewolves can't sneak, they will never be able to pass the hunt phases in there without doing the secret areas. I assume this means they will also be unable to pass the Lord Hollowjack fight during Witches' Fest as it also requires characters to actively Crouch.

Should all content in the game be forcibly bent to suite the WW or should something more pragmatic be employed, whereas WW is now a toggle with cool down instead of ult?

This dungeon came out with wolf hunter (which hilarious enough was ‘the last major werewolf rework patch’)…. It is literally in Hircine’s realm… they have a house with infinite werewolf time (haven’t tested if this still works with new werewolf tbh), because you are in Hircine’s realm… and one of the main side objective boons thematically gives werewolf the ability to bypass the sneak mechanic in the fight they’re referring to in that dungeon…

So no, not for every dungeon- but yes for that dungeon.

Darkness734

im actually really sad, legitimately that they are gutting this rework. I thought the refresh was to bring everything up to snuff not show us what it could be and then drag it back to the dirt. Whats the point of the refreshes if youre going to nerf it back to pre- refresh state

YandereGirlfriend

Would like to see some actual evidence of WW being "nerfed into a pre-refresh state" in either game mode.

Is WW suddenly now parsing 80k on the PTS and 4k DPS in duels? I highly doubt it.

Erickson9610

I'm not sure how well the new Werewolf fits the art style of the game. Compare the old, new, and Behemoth werewolves:


First, the thing that's been bugging me the most: Why are the muzzle wrinkles on the new Werewolf so wrong? Both the old and Behemoth werewolves got it right. Naturally, those wrinkles are only visible on a wolf when the wolf's lips are curled up in a snarl, which werewolves in this game perpetually do. The new Werewolf just has an awkward shape with a single line going down the top of the muzzle, with wrinkles intersecting at right angles. This doesn't look right at all.

Secondly, what is going on with the eyes? They're far bigger than either of the other two werewolves, and they've got vertical slit pupils! I made a poll asking people which kind of pupils they prefer, and as of writing, the majority want to see rounded, wolf-like pupils, not vertical slit pupils that remind them of lizards or cats. I made this edit to show what it could look like with rounded pupils:


It's clear to me that the new Werewolf is very stylized. In isolation, it's a great model! I also enjoy how some classic design characteristics from Morrowind's werewolf, such as the glowing eyes and the dewclaws, ended up on this new model. I just wish the muzzle wrinkles and slit eyes would be adjusted to make them more closely fit the style of the existing ESO werewolves.

coop500

Noooo why did you have to point out the face wrinkles, now it bothers me too lol.
Seriously that line does look so funky, it's just THERE.

I don't expect us to get these kinds of changes, but it's fun to discuss anyway.

pluvioisaplanet

After the week 3 changes, the nerf to rip and tear with the intention of having bloody gnash be the preferred morph for group DPS did nothing.

The only reason rip and tear was and still is better, is because it has a guaranteed sunder proc. While bloody gnash has a guaranteed hemorrhage proc when already have close to 100% uptime on hemorrhage without this skill, so it ends up adding basically nothing apart from having 200% execute damage instead of 175% (A whopping 14.29% stronger execute), and access to the Blood Hunger mechanic which is what I would call entirely useless. The sundered from Rip and Tear is decently stronger than both the stronger execute and blood hunger damage increase from Bloody Gnash. This is partly because Signet is most probably BiS for Werewolf DPS.

The reason I call Blood Hunger useless is because of the rng element tied to Bloody Gnash, and it's adding only 25% to the first part of the skill, so this bonus becomes completely irrelevant when you get to execute where the 2nd hit of the skill gets giga boosted.

For Bloody Gnash to be competitive or better than Rip and Tear for Group DPS, it has to have guaranteed sundered instead of hemorrhage, or it'll need a somewhat significant damage increase to the direct hit of the skill.

Or another probably better way to achieve this would be to remove guaranteed sunder from Rip and Tear, and put Minor Beach on it alongside Major Breach, this would keep the utitility on the skill without completely nuking its damage as it'll still be able to proc sunder sometimes, so it won't suddenly be bad for damage for Solo for instance, and it'll keep its utility for both Solo and Tanking in providing Major and Minor Breach. And trust me, werewolf does not need more damage by buffing Bloody Gnash.

In the two parses I've attached, the difference between Rip and Tear and Bloody Gnash is clear, Rip and Tear providing almost double the DPS from sundered. While the direct hits of both skills are basically the same. And it's no surprise that Rip and Tear parses higher.

For some additonal context, gear, CPs, and everything is the same in both of these parses. And I did multiple of each and picked the best, the difference between the two remained consistent in all my parses.

Edit: This test is on a pure Warden, I've tested across multiple classes and this remains consistent.

Another Edit: I've done some more testing to be absolutely sure, and in most parses, when I'm using Bloody Gnash over Rip and Tear, I'm gaining like 4k hemorrhage DPS while losing 10k sundered DPS. And the gain from the ever so slightly stronger execute and Blood Hunger is not making any difference. Crit luck and status rng can push either of them higher than the other, it's almost no difference.

CP5

I have to agree that, during my time using the werewolf, I was better off just ignoring the Blood Hunger system. I get it as a way to empower the channeled claw attack, but it feels awkward mixing in the roar just to build stacks to spend on bloody gnash every random number of casts with no real tell as to how many stacks I even have. It just feels like wishful thinking that I'm using the skill with any stacks, and it's better damage to just not worry about them at all beyond the channel that builds stacks on its own and purges all stacks when it's done. Now if instead the claw channel was just it's own thing, like the DK channeled breath, and the Blood Hunger was changed to say, build 1 stack every time you apply hemorrhaging, and then had some sort of payoff for building them, then that'd make the otherwise redundant hemorrhaging actually useful.

xylena

The previous version of Rip and Tear was hard carrying in PvP, they were ignoring the rest of their kit and just spamming LA + Rip for both offense and defense. So while the Rip nerf was correct for PvP, the other WW functionality and utility should have been buffed more to compensate.

The interaction with Sorc Conservation is still seriously busted, but I think now that might be more an issue with how it triggers the HP scaling heal on Blood Magic, not anything specific to WW. Personally I'd still perfer to see WW get its own unique Mastery.

dark_hunterxmg

Maybe we can opt out of the U50 Werewolf and just keep using the one from live? I know I'll enjoy it more.

U50 Werewolf handles like a dump truck compared to the live Werewolf, which feels like a sports sedan. Regardless of how much damage it can output, it feels terrible to play.

Skills are delayed and can be easily canceled(not animation cancel, I mean not actually cast) by light attacks and bash. Roar is the biggest offender. The cast time needs to be removed. 0.3s might as well be a full second or longer. If roar has to be delayed, make the impact delayed rather than the cast.

Skills connect at the wrong time if they connect at all. When dueling, at the beginning of a duel, my opponent would be at a distance. I would immediately roll dodge at the start, but take damage from a pounce while they were still standing on the ground at a distance. Then the pounce animation would occur. I can also be attacking an opponent directly in front of me and do zero damage to them.

Heavy attack Werewolf for U50 is dead. It was killed when fast heavy attacks were removed from Roar. New heavy attacks take 2 business days to que.

Hircine's Fortitude heals for 33% less than live, Rip and Tear heal was reduced by nearly half, and Blood Claws is now only a 6 second dot because PvP or something. Hircine's Fortitude needs to be stronger and it needs a HoT and a cross heal.

Are we being serious with the 1 second bleed on Berserker light attacks?

Are we being serious with 10% weapon damage down from 18% on live? This may be okay if we get weapon passives, but we're still waiting.

There were only a small amount of things that I really expected to see for Werewolf with the update:
-Weapon passives
-HoT and/or cross heal for Hircine's Fortitude
-Reduced cost for skills(specifically the heal)
-Improvement in skill functionality:
* Roar range and instant fast heavy attack activation
*Pounce being single cast with Carnage activating on impact.

We got one of those things. Reduced cost for skills. The cost reduction for the heal came with a significant nerf to the healing value.

autocookies

I am grateful the only source of major breach on werewolf isn't locked behind slotting a much lower damage spamable. As long as major breach is on that skill it will be forcibly slotted without exception (In non-optimized content or in portals) please keep its damage completive. Need to do more testing with wolf ult rate but thank you for adjusting this.

coop500

All I wanna say is: please don't nerf Rip and Tear any further to make Bloody Gnash more appealing. I honestly don't think werewolf can take anymore direct nerfs without becoming irrelevant. It's in a GOOD spot right now but it could be better with having more choices in skills. Bloody Gnash needs a buff, it needs a reason to trade self healing and major breach/sundered.

I also think Claw Fury could use a small buff, nothing too crazy but it does feel underwhelming. I know that's outside of how ZOS thinks we should play, but like it or not, cleave is King in most PvE, and melee cleave ain't that overpowered to have.

And yeah I do think it's weird that Carnage has no upfront damage, not even a little bit. It just refreshes a DOT, this feels a little odd. Not gamebreaking but it could use a consideration.

Also nobody's mentioned this but why is the unmorphed icon for Bloody Claws more fitting for that morph than the icon we do have that looks almost exactly like Claw Fury? I feel like these icons could be swapped, as I find myself forgetting which morph I had slotted during testing.

IncultaWolf

The 1 second berserker bleed after a 1 second delay and 10% damage after battlespirit are both nerfs compared to the live version of werewolf and it feels very bad. This is supposed to be a big refresh to make people want to play it again in pvp right? I don't mind the nerfs to other things so much as long as we still have access to class masteries, but making something WORSE than the current werewolf just feels awful.

I do think these nerfs were a bit too heavy handed and all you've done is force every werewolf to play sorc if they want to be competitive since they have the best passives. Two passives in particular that were enabling the strong duel setup you saw during week 1 of pts. I'd have much rather seen the class masteries be disabled in form, but leave the actual werewolf toolkit alone.

coop500

IncultaWolf wrote: »

The 1 second berserker bleed after a 1 second delay and 10% damage after battlespirit are both nerfs compared to the live version of werewolf and it feels very bad. This is supposed to be a big refresh to make people want to play it again in pvp right? I don't mind the nerfs to other things so much as long as we still have access to class masteries, but making something WORSE than the current werewolf just feels awful.

I do think these nerfs were a bit too heavy handed and all you've done is force every werewolf to play sorc if they want to be competitive since they have the best passives. Two passives in particular that were enabling the strong duel setup you saw during week 1 of pts. I'd have much rather seen the class masteries be disabled in form, but leave the actual werewolf toolkit alone.

Yeah the nerfs defo felt like a 'okay everyone stop whining' heavyhanded smack and it's a bit sad to see, but it's what we werewolf people feared would happen. I hope some of it is revisited before the end of the PTS cycle.

I can't blame the devs too badly because the complaining was endless, nobody could talk about anything else. But in the grand scheme of things, it was mostly those passives, and a few small things that needed to be tweaked. Not hit this hard.

Wuuffyy

pluvioisaplanet wrote: »

Or another probably better way to achieve this would be to remove guaranteed sunder from Rip and Tear, and put Minor Beach on it alongside Major Breach,

I know my opinion doesn’t appear to matter here, but please no. This is clearly the ‘PvP morph’ with/without the healing (just like howl of agony and defeaning roar were prior regardless of offensive/defense slating; I need the ability to have pen in PvP without throwing away ALL of my damage ). They quite literally nerfed the damage scaling coefficient (no I’m not talking about the recent ‘blood hunger’ nerf) when they reworked this skill.

If anything up the damage scaling on the execute further for the Bloody gnash morph (25% damage threshold is low enough that outside of a PvP parse, it won’t be overbearing in PvP) and change the 50% when consuming a blood hunger to every 2 casts you get the blood hunger increase without needing or consuming blood hunger (so very similar but more reliable and less other-ability spam to get some blood hunger procs as you wouldn’t ’spam’ them in PvE)

~If you do what this person says, please at least consider increasing the scaling coefficient on one/both morphs and potentially returning the blood hunger damage increase to rip and tear again.~

Alchimiste1

WW seems fine on pts

SneaK

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

WW seems fine on pts

Fine?
Is it fun?
Is it competitive vs base DK or meta subs?

Asking cause I don’t have PTS, only PTSD.

React

Fights today vs Pelican (4/28, post week 3 adjustments)

No Class Mastery Passives in on his end

With Class Mastery Passives in on his end

WW still insanely strong after yesterday's adjustments. He's got 45k HP in these fights as well, and outheals nearly all damage due to the sheer amount of offensive healing he's still receiving from the WW toolkit, buffed health recovery, and conservation of energy class passive.

Still arguably the strongest possible thing to play 1v1, but probably more reasonable now outside of this scenario. I'd say yesterday's adjustments hit the mark in regards to reigning in the power level a bit.

I'd like to see conservation of energy's healing brought down still, but many people have given that feedback across the appropriate channels. It also seems problematic to me that most of the heals are scaling on health, encouraging WWs to build 40-50k HP for maximum healing power.

This isn't a WW specific problem - health scaling heals/shields in general are extremely problematic in PVP. Really don't think they should exist the same way the do on the PVE side of the game, where they're intended for tanks to use as a self heal.

coop500

SneaK wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

WW seems fine on pts

Fine?
Is it fun?
Is it competitive vs base DK or meta subs?

Asking cause I don’t have PTS, only PTSD.

In PvE it's okay, defo won't be the meta still, but it's stronger than live.

In PvP however, it's a much more mixed bag. Overall it's a little stronger in some ways than Live, but everyone else is also stronger, and a lot of the PvP specific nerfs are pretty heavyhanded. So I may even be wrong about that.

YandereGirlfriend

coop500 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

WW seems fine on pts

Fine?
Is it fun?
Is it competitive vs base DK or meta subs?

Asking cause I don’t have PTS, only PTSD.

In PvE it's okay, defo won't be the meta still, but it's stronger than live.

In PvP however, a much more mixed bag. Overall it's a little stronger in some ways than Live, but everyone else is also stronger, and a lot of the PvP specific nerfe are pretty heavyhanded. So I may even be wrong about that.

Right now, WW is roasting the newly nerfed pureSorc and all of the other pureclass builds in PTS parses.

There are a bunch of 180-200k parses floating around. I would say that it's more than okay, heh.

Chrlynsch

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Maybe we can opt out of the U50 Werewolf and just keep using the one from live? I know I'll enjoy it more.

U50 Werewolf handles like a dump truck compared to the live Werewolf, which feels like a sports sedan. Regardless of how much damage it can output, it feels terrible to play.

Skills are delayed and can be easily canceled(not animation cancel, I mean not actually cast) by light attacks and bash. Roar is the biggest offender. The cast time needs to be removed. 0.3s might as well be a full second or longer. If roar has to be delayed, make the impact delayed rather than the cast.

Skills connect at the wrong time if they connect at all. When dueling, at the beginning of a duel, my opponent would be at a distance. I would immediately roll dodge at the start, but take damage from a pounce while they were still standing on the ground at a distance. Then the pounce animation would occur. I can also be attacking an opponent directly in front of me and do zero damage to them.

Heavy attack Werewolf for U50 is dead. It was killed when fast heavy attacks were removed from Roar. New heavy attacks take 2 business days to que.

Hircine's Fortitude heals for 33% less than live, Rip and Tear heal was reduced by nearly half, and Blood Claws is now only a 6 second dot because PvP or something. Hircine's Fortitude needs to be stronger and it needs a HoT and a cross heal.

Are we being serious with the 1 second bleed on Berserker light attacks?

Are we being serious with 10% weapon damage down from 18% on live? This may be okay if we get weapon passives, but we're still waiting.

There were only a small amount of things that I really expected to see for Werewolf with the update:
-Weapon passives
-HoT and/or cross heal for Hircine's Fortitude
-Reduced cost for skills(specifically the heal)
-Improvement in skill functionality:
* Roar range and instant fast heavy attack activation
*Pounce being single cast with Carnage activating on impact.

We got one of those things. Reduced cost for skills. The cost reduction for the heal came with a significant nerf to the healing value.

Comparing weapon damage passives from live and pts is kind of like comparing apples and oranges with ability bases being adjusted.

The only thing directly nerfed would be scaling of procs in pvp. But even then we should factor in major courage buff for a werewolf as well.

IMO U50 Werewolf has significant survival improvements, more damage, flexibility and build variation than it does on live.

Dracane

React wrote: »

Fights today vs Pelican (4/28, post week 3 adjustments)

No Class Mastery Passives in on his end

With Class Mastery Passives in on his end

WW still insanely strong after yesterday's adjustments. He's got 45k HP in these fights as well, and outheals nearly all damage due to the sheer amount of offensive healing he's still receiving from the WW toolkit, buffed health recovery, and conservation of energy class passive.

Still arguably the strongest possible thing to play 1v1, but probably more reasonable now outside of this scenario. I'd say yesterday's adjustments hit the mark in regards to reigning in the power level a bit.

I'd like to see conservation of energy's healing brought down still, but many people have given that feedback across the appropriate channels. It also seems problematic to me that most of the heals are scaling on health, encouraging WWs to build 40-50k HP for maximum healing power.

This isn't a WW specific problem - health scaling heals/shields in general are extremely problematic in PVP. Really don't think they should exist the same way the do on the PVE side of the game, where they're intended for tanks to use as a self heal.

I wanted to comment that Werewolf is now stronger in pve than before (and on live) and still much better in pvp. After seeing this I am slightly uncertain again, but still think it should be seen now how it goes on Live.

Relequen nerfed and Static Reverb, the 2 things that bothered me the most. Evidently WW did not even need them. Now Conservation of Energy has to stop scaling with max HP and it's okay.

Wuuffyy

React wrote: »

Still arguably the strongest possible thing to play 1v1, but probably more reasonable now outside of this scenario. I'd say yesterday's adjustments hit the mark in regards to reigning in the power level a bit.

Just going to propose a scenario based on this, not that my feedback appearsto matter here in the slightest (in other words, I feel like a fool for wasting my time and wanted to say ‘I know’ but I feel obligated to provide feedback anyway even if the ~outcome~, harsh nerf after harsh nerf for PvP, is inevitable)-

My opponent blocks, rolls, moves, purges (potentially), and of course heals (scenario info below). *Pointless to argue the numbers provided with you, because, of course it doesn’t (I don’t want to get into this again).

My “dps” drops from 6.7k to safely 4k or lower after ~aforementioned~. Most people in Cyro have ~35-40k health and do these things. Their healing combats my dots and I have no burst OR defile (I don’t even have defile like on live; couldn’t even do Jerall’s without defile as it isn’t impactful enough outside of a 1v1 so that’s not enough of a replacement imo)…

The opponent can vigor (it’s simply a ‘scenario’ so not going into whole spiel of burst heals and the like)- what 2-3k hps a second and if they keep this up every ~5 seconds, it’s basically a guarantee (this is not even including outside healers)? Side-tangent: I agree that I wanted wep/spell damage scaling and a hot which we didn’t get and instead received more of ~not that~ + of course every werewolf is going to have higher health than your average build… the point there: but like that’s a pure damage spec you’re providing right~ (so high health and squishy; maybe a little bit more because armor pots as you need less mag sustain, unlike free-roam, in a duel)??

If so, I will take a lot of damage and just based on what I said I’m meant to kill people with an effective 2, 3, 4k dps with no burst. DK (only other ‘reworked’ or highly effective thing I can refer to aside from subclass meta) still isn’t an ‘I win’ button and it has 3 burst moves (based on something in general thread, not an expert) with dots of its own (skilled players especially know how to circumvent both the dots and DK burst damage to an extent) and this only becomes more the case, I imagine, when the other ‘classes’ are reworked and come into play.

*I think, also, maybe part of what’s not being considered is that some of what I now have in my kit on PTS (so several of the provided buffs), just about every werewolf is sourcing through oakensoul on live (where we still consider werewolf to be F-tier to my knowledge). I’ve been doing a bit of research and have personally yet to find any damage related proc that I deem to be super reliable and meaningful outside of a 1v1 in terms of a 2 pc to replace it (maybe someone else has, but not me and not yet). So potentially just not as GREAT of shift from live than some are led to believe. I just hope we haven’t dogged werewolf back down into oblivion at the end of this in PvP.

I’d prefer if you/ the gang doesn’t reply to this as, to me, it’s pretty obvious to all who their listening to (another reminder)- just wanted to drop this here ‘screaming at the wind’ for the devs.

QQ (somewhat of a suggestion): would it be pertinent to remove things like the sorc damage class masteries (please not a heavy-handed ~all~), specifically, or provide werewolf its own ‘class masteries’ instead (this doesn’t even have to be damage, it could be low-damage-increase masteries and then utility masteries like ~oh, Hircine’s howl spreads ~50% of heal to allies in melee range or ‘purge all negative effects’ when activating rampage)

I believe this could provide merit to returning power back to werewolf itself (ZOS, this would also allow you to balance once less thing as you ‘go down the road’ and rework class masteries too- if you were to give werewolf its own set of masteries while transformed).

Wuuffyy

Chrlynsch wrote: »

comparing weapon damage passives from live and pts is kind of like comparing apples and oranges with ability bases being adjusted.

The only thing directly nerfed would be scaling of procs in pvp. But even then we should factor in major courage buff for a werewolf as well.

IMO U50 Werewolf has significant survival improvements, more damage, flexibility and build variation than it does on live.

Weren’t the majority of base values nerfed from live in favor of providing more generic power (generic buffs) in kit (so less from oakensoul ig)? I know the berserker bleed has been nerfed base-wise by a heavy amount plus huge, actual uptime nerf (I don’t see many lower-end players keeping this up more than 1 second every 2 seconds but that is simply speculation), and the spammable howl had the 25% increased damage+ higher scaling coefficient+ plus higher off balance + higher on the ‘terrified’ that we lost.

I know the healing howl (burst heal) was nerfed at base (even with a cost reduction this is still less hps which makes it harder to counter burst damage in PvP). We lost the disease proc on every tick of the claws (to my testing prior these status procs are always around 2/10 of a surprise attack and that was occurring once every 2 seconds; so dps value of one surprise attack in dot form every 10 seconds in favor of roughly double to actual dot scaling that was coming from that skill).

I mean, roar is maybe better damage-wise, but we essentially forwent major protection and minor maim on the ‘duel/pvp’ morph on PTS compared to live (yes shifted to Packleader but then you forgo any real dot pressure outside of execute and major berserk). Add to that it has one of those clunky cast times that tend to be especially unreliable during Cyro prime time.