U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf

Wuuffyy · April 29

Suggestion

I honestly cannot remember how pets work in the slightest but I believe I remember that you can essentially enter the Konami code to get them to retarget (controller) or heavy attack (which is prob generally better for most based on intent) so excuse me if this is already the case (I have exclusively tested in 1v1 scenarios only with reworked wolf).

Can we have it where Packleader ‘dire wolves’ (werewolf pets) change target priority, i.e. target swap, with a bash also? Since heavy attacking, even by ZoS’ knowledge, is less pertinent now on werewolf. I feel this would be an easier and more appropriate way to ensure they are staying on target- especially in PvP.

Wuuffyy · April 29

Suggestion

I know this is from someone else also, but-

Can we get the Packleader ‘dire wolf’ pets to match the chosen fur colour (black for black, some colour for gray, white for white).

To me, it’s off-putting to have the black fur colour selected and then 1 white dire wolf and 1 tan dire wolf (for example)

Also, they want to stand in each other, ALOT.

Wuuffyy · April 29

Suggestion/Recommendation:

Hey, with how werewolf works now would it be pertinent to disable the ultimate itself in under level 50 BGs?

I feel with the way it works (and hopefully positive changes in the future; especially to werewolf bleed forgiveness/uptime in PvP), it’s okay for CP/non-CP PvE and PvP- but I wanted to put this idea out there as we’re already receiving heavy handed nerfs and the last thing I want is to receive them for under level 50 BGs after a live patch.

I wouldn’t normally say anything as I don’t consider under 50 anything (PvP wise) in a serious manner, but again we’re already receiving nerfs over ‘dueling potential’, so idk, food for thought.

Wuuffyy · April 29

I finally had the opportunity to test with someone on PTS, for an extended period of time (late at night; Auridon and Riften were empty). Found them in IC and they were running some survivability with damage on pure-class templar using Atheric and vateshran with bubble, at least (so very dueling efficient builds, high CC, high pressure).

I was running something similar to a build I have on live so Warden Aerie and Null Arca (trying to augment werewolf for lack of burst, per usual). I wasn't attempting to pure class cheese (I'm still expecting ZOS to hit this somewhere) and I wasn't running Huntsman (found out this is cleansable, for a fact, so GL with that and cleanse CP/netch). I was running stormcalling (obvious damage passives), Aedric Spear (for burning light), and warden (so I could run Aerie's and minor toughness buff for extra healing). I alternated b/w different mythics (hence how I confirmed Huntsman, etc.)

Some notes on my live player with an ‘efficient PvP build’:

I tried the damage version of the healing howl (even with 6k wep/spell or so before any other buffs)... and it's just a no-go against anyone competent with dots. I'm simply taking far too much damage and the heal scales so very weakly that I was almost better off casting anything else that heals me other than my healing howl for this one (we're talking 5-6k non crits on a burst heal with little to no ability to build crit to improve that part if I wanted).

WHEN I didn't have a plethora of dots on me, I felt okay healing wise. So as LONG as I am able to attack, my incoming healing was an improvement OVER live... but that's where it stops. Between bubble and vateshran along with the Aedric proc, it felt incredibly difficult to return damage (for healing bite; as I took so much damage when doing anything but rolling/healing) and the claws dot was almost always purged within 2 or 3 seconds. Until I later slotted the lefthander aegis mythic, my healing was not any noticeable improvement over live. In other words, when an opponent is returning tremendous damage to me (or by proxy I'm needing to move away from a group of enemies to avoid collapse), my healing fails me- similar to live (only movement/kite can save still, in other words).

Despite light attack consistency whenever possible, the uptime on Berserker bleed seemed to be pretty rough (I mean it's 1 sec long and I can literally only apply at a minimum of every 1 second... so of course it's super unforgiving, so I wanted to say that. Quick suggestion here: the whole point was to make this less 'back-to-back' exploitable in PvP, you did that by removing the '5 or greater can now refresh rule that you created'... literally have NEVER heard of a 1 second dot in any game I've personally played.

I would love to have some of the time added back to this or just do something different for PvP entirely if some of the time cannot be restored for forgiveness; ex: turn into a bleed direct damage hit for PvP or maybe provide a lower-value compared to current damage value but longer in PvP while also providing major/minor defile for ~4 seconds on claws usage somewhat similar to live

SPEAKING of berserker- it's a noticeable improvement over last PTS patch in terms of sustain. With that being said, even when constantly engaged with an opponent, I still lost ult once however. I found an okay remedy to this (while in IC) to transform (even if at low ult), and continuously eat corpses until 500 ult and then reengage. However, this is ONLY while constantly engaged and while doing the 'trick' to start with high ult in a timely manner. I can imagine this becomes SIGNIFICANTLY worse when you are moving around/about without a corpse to devour. (my suggestion again, delay the timer for ult loss after transforming by 10-15 seconds. Up the devour sustain time to 30-45 seconds. I feel that it will be MUCH more manageable while still denoting the original sustain intent and requiring the user to be thoughtful of using ult and making sure to devour corpses for form sustain when possible[/b]

The spammable (bite) heal, even at reduced values from last cycle, feels somewhat nice when I can spam for at least 3-4 seconds AND I'm not taking tremendous dot pressure. Claws... feels rough to maintain in the sense that the duration is so short and initial impact is not that much greater than with any of my other damage skills (this was how I felt with the leap-bleed having no initial impact as well... especially when it's being purged off quickly anyway). It was even more rough with the times actively changing b/w killing adds that were in my way/to regain ult, and actually fighting that player (and honestly same with berserker bleed duration. Felt amazing on passthrough back to player, even compared to live... just not on the player).

The roar... ugh (the cast time for starters 0.o)- having to cast this at the beginning of a fight and use a GCD (before I'm on my opponent)... and then use another GCD for the actual synergy (damage morph) feels rough and leaves me open doing a whole lot of 'nothin' before I actually start fighting. Suggestion: Is there any way we can make this one-specific synergy auto-use itself if cast on self and I'm not on CD for the synergy myself; maybe we can consider that suggestion recompense for the sluggish cast time?

~~~

My conclusion in terms of PvP:

-things like berserker bleed feel rough now. Berserker sustain is better but definitely still drops form-sustain-viability greatly when you cannot be actively engaged in fighting (yet are in combat... feels especially rough when you pass by an ad, it attacks you, and suddenly you're already 80 ult less than you had with a few seconds off to react to remediate) and no corpses are around.

-Healing is definitely a noticeable improvement over live (can vouch)... until you can no longer attack a target actively or are taking tremendous sustained damage, for whatever reason, and then it still fails to self-sustain remotely close to vigor+soul healing scribe. In fact, the heal by itself fails at being a sufficient heal outside of doing anything but augmenting the other heals.

-The roar is rough with the amount of GCDs consumed not actively dealing any damage. It feels like a chore to use at times. Might I again suggest having the self-synergy auto-cast for self on this one if possible?

-The claws... and the bleed-leap skill... they feel 'floaty' to say the least and beyond that, the bleed-leap skill feels especially so (so just almost-no impact on the initial GCD I'm spending).

-The lack of defile when fighting a sustain build (build that has a lot of self survivability) seems INCREDIBLY noticeable... especially when purge is a heavy factor during the fight (meaning there is little impact especially b/w dot application, and purge... I can't even reduce a few heals before all of my 'pressure' is potentially gone).

-STILL no burst move. Still can feel this. Still doesn't feel great (can supplement with procs but if we 'on monsters' nerf all of them, this won't be an option). Would like to suggest potentially moving some damage from tooltips around and making bite a bit more like current DK Stonefist in that in has a certain number of uses and then it turns into a burst-move version one-time; could relinquish guaranteed status effect and potentially remove a toxic interaction with the Signet mythic in werewolf as well.

///

Recommendation for healing (again). (I still think we should move some of the power we took away from the other heals/duration and move it back into the healing howl... maybe in the form of a hot to help counter some of the dot pressure that can be relayed from 'meta specs', especially while not on top of a target).

Defile, defile, defile- I don't need the status effects I just want the defiles themselves. It would help as we continuously work to lower werewolf damage while increasing everyone else's damage and survivability.

Damage wise, it feels the same or worse as on live to me. I run berserker there too and my claws aren't lasting any time, purge or no, my berserker bleed isn't lasting any time and I can no longer 'tag and move' to reposition for any reason with any actual impact (1 dot tick is negligible). Claws lasting 6 seconds in PvP and 10 seconds in PvE feels just about as bad as you'd expect it to. Block and/or purge are still greatly removing power from my kit.It legitimately feels incredibly similar to old werewolf here but now 'with a mythic/monster set of my choosing' (which brings power in and of itself, but isn't really the werewolf doing that).

I personally feel like the 'we are just going to give a bunch of generic buffs and move on' has turned into simply a way to buff proc sets but really not do much to change PvP werewolf damage one way or another outside of them.

Sustain (so stam sustain) feels amazing. When running all well-fitted and left-handers I felt like I had the ability to take on the world... until I took significant pressure damage.

Oh, and pen is clearly illegal around these parts. As mentioned, weapon passives would add more variety and help address this to a small, maybe fair degree.

Edit: Suggestion it is so safe to say you could add minor resolve to the damage-based healing howl and it wouldn’t hurt a singular soul for PvP after what I saw; you’re already taking up to 12% more damage from this morph so this would be a balanced and non-toxic way to add minor resolve in kit.

*reason my PvP test (was testing prior on dummy) is so late is due to not being able to find people in PvP/dueling spots I checked 90% of the time + work and life (it's easier and less intensive to comment on threads than it is to build kits and test in-game).

Proof of me in PvP talking with the other person (you can see IC in the backdrop; just talking about form sustain/form loss, their proc set/build they were trying/ potency of the damage howl with my stats at the time (6-7k wep damage after buffs):

Again, I know my feedback clearly isn't being valued BUT there it is. Honestly, we'll see, and I'm still hoping for the best outcome here.

Wuuffyy · April 29

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

WW seems fine on pts

This is awesome feedback! I type out pages worth of clearly separated sub-topics with genuine feedback and everyone else just drops some random ‘player parse’ from the depths of despair or ‘nerf work good’ comment and this seems to be what they are looking for. 🙃

Edit: this is absolutely not a comment focused on the player at-hand. In fact, it’s that it should be a non-issue.

xylena · April 29

Wuuffyy wrote: »

This is awesome feedback!

Unironically, it is. He previously said WW should be nerfed. Now he says it's fine.

Shorter posts are often much more informative and useful than longer ones. For example, yes I think WW should have its own unique Mastery, no I don't need to write 6000 words of "if I were lead dev for a day" roleplay fanfiction about what I think it should be.

Wuuffyy · April 29

xylena wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

This is awesome feedback!

Shorter posts are often much more informative and useful than longer ones. For example, yes I think WW should have its own unique Mastery, no I don't need to write 6000 words of "if I were lead dev for a day" roleplay fanfiction about what I think it should be.

I think this is EXACTLY how proper feedback should be. I cover holes and facets so you, the developer, can make the decision on what is pertinent to you, what tracks, and what doesn’t.

That’s how you are able to make appropriate adjustments to overperforming items while also adjusting underperforming ones, potentially in a symbiotic give and take relationship.

dark_hunterxmg · April 29

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Maybe we can opt out of the U50 Werewolf and just keep using the one from live? I know I'll enjoy it more.

U50 Werewolf handles like a dump truck compared to the live Werewolf, which feels like a sports sedan. Regardless of how much damage it can output, it feels terrible to play.

Skills are delayed and can be easily canceled(not animation cancel, I mean not actually cast) by light attacks and bash. Roar is the biggest offender. The cast time needs to be removed. 0.3s might as well be a full second or longer. If roar has to be delayed, make the impact delayed rather than the cast.

Skills connect at the wrong time if they connect at all. When dueling, at the beginning of a duel, my opponent would be at a distance. I would immediately roll dodge at the start, but take damage from a pounce while they were still standing on the ground at a distance. Then the pounce animation would occur. I can also be attacking an opponent directly in front of me and do zero damage to them.

Heavy attack Werewolf for U50 is dead. It was killed when fast heavy attacks were removed from Roar. New heavy attacks take 2 business days to que.

Hircine's Fortitude heals for 33% less than live, Rip and Tear heal was reduced by nearly half, and Blood Claws is now only a 6 second dot because PvP or something. Hircine's Fortitude needs to be stronger and it needs a HoT and a cross heal.

Are we being serious with the 1 second bleed on Berserker light attacks?

Are we being serious with 10% weapon damage down from 18% on live? This may be okay if we get weapon passives, but we're still waiting.

There were only a small amount of things that I really expected to see for Werewolf with the update:
-Weapon passives
-HoT and/or cross heal for Hircine's Fortitude
-Reduced cost for skills(specifically the heal)
-Improvement in skill functionality:
* Roar range and instant fast heavy attack activation
*Pounce being single cast with Carnage activating on impact.

We got one of those things. Reduced cost for skills. The cost reduction for the heal came with a significant nerf to the healing value.

Comparing weapon damage passives from live and pts is kind of like comparing apples and oranges with ability bases being adjusted.

The only thing directly nerfed would be scaling of procs in pvp. But even then we should factor in major courage buff for a werewolf as well.

IMO U50 Werewolf has significant survival improvements, more damage, flexibility and build variation than it does on live.

It's a pretty apples to apples comparison. The way they "balance" things for werewolf is and has always been to make one thing a little "better" and then take away or nerf something that already existed. It ends up coming out the same or worse.

More survivable? They nerfed healing and heal scaling on the burst heal. Survival depends largely on constantly attacking a target. No target no heal. That burst heal will NOT carry you through.

They removed an entire playstyle (my playstyle) by taking away fast heavy attacks. Now we play as tank wolf or dot wolf only. No hard hitting skills, no heavy attacks(unless you are trying to die). Bash weaving is now nearly mandatory too. Never have I seen so many Werewolves bash weaving (except me) than I have since the first day of pts.

Werewolf builds into armor pen and weapon damage, humans build into Onslaught.

There were a few things unique to Werewolf.
-Larger stamina pool (gone)
-18% Weapon damage buff (nerfed)
-33% faster heavy attacks (gone)
-30% faster movement speed(questionable)

I'm still trying to see how this as a whole is better. I would rather keep my live Werewolf.

Wuuffyy · April 29

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Now we play as tank wolf or dot wolf only.
I'm still trying to see how this as a whole is better. I would rather keep my live Werewolf

Mediocre 1 second, 6 second, and no upfront damage execute ~dot wolf~ and same at this point. I was never looking to ‘cheese’ which is the only accusation thrown when I say ‘werewolf felt the same or worse for damage vs live’ (I’m not running dot procs and overtuned passives to exploit every facet of my game).

At this point- keep the claws (PvE) morph (throw it over current “healing” claws), keep the bite attack style, keep the visuals/ animations, “stealth” mechanic, keep the pounce/dot QoL ‘change up’ style, and the rage meter (just make a second bar or something under current timer bar for live). It seems like you all really like the ‘on monsters effect’ so simply double or triple our live weapon and spell damage buff ‘while battle spirit inactive’ for juiced-up PvE numbers.

Revert literally everything else if you aren’t willing to balance this one without a mallet. We’ll figure it out and take it from here while you go back to the drawing board.

On a side note- it seems like ‘Blood Hunger’ is turning out to be as woefully unimpactful as ‘Teriffied’ was as a werewolf specific buff, especially as you remove the few intrinsic interactions you placed in for both give/take.

Your long time werewolf players that have stuck through hekk and back with meta changes deserve better than this. Back when 10-20 forumgoers relentlessly provided suggestions for improvement to get us to where we are now.

Alchimiste1 · April 29

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

WW seems fine on pts

This is awesome feedback! I type out pages worth of clearly separated sub-topics with genuine feedback and everyone else just drops some random ‘player parse’ from the depths of despair or ‘nerf work good’ comment and this seems to be what they are looking for. 🙃

Alright, let me start by saying that your last 10 or so posts have not been coherent at all. You might want to go back and reword those because it sounds like you are having a monologue with yourself that only you really understand. I think it would help the zos team.

Anyways, pts WW is still very strong. It’s still doing very good damage, the sustain is still good. It admittedly did get less healing. Overall, it seems to be in a more balanced state.

Do you mind submitting some of your own cmxs / clips or anything that can help others understand why you think WW is underperforming ? Perhaps we can look over the gameplay a bit.

Wuuffyy · April 29

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

WW seems fine on pts

This is awesome feedback! I type out pages worth of clearly separated sub-topics with genuine feedback and everyone else just drops some random ‘player parse’ from the depths of despair or ‘nerf work good’ comment and this seems to be what they are looking for. 🙃

Alright, let me start by saying that your last 10 or so posts have not been coherent at all. You might want to go back and reword those because it sounds like you are having a monologue with yourself that only you really understand. I think it would help the zos team.

Anyways, pts WW is still very strong. It’s still doing very good damage, the sustain is still good. It admittedly did get less healing. Overall, it seems to be in a more balanced state.

Do you mind submitting some of your own cmxs / clips or anything that can help others understand why you think WW is underperforming ? Perhaps we can look over the gameplay a bit.

Everything is coherent, I had provided my testing earlier in this post (way earlier in this thread I had provided some dummy parse numbers with PvP gear (prior to ‘on monsters’ slammed on every other thing)), and I have also provided descriptors with info above. Many of the suggestions I made simply offer to sidegrade power/ remove werewolf potential to abuse potential systems rather than an outright ‘buff werewolf damage’ so I can simply “be OP”.

Werewolf is still lacking in many areas and has indeed still has had significant reductions from live in several areas (again, berserker bleed duration change is diabolical; I still have nonexistent burst when everyone else has 2-3 burst moves; still don’t have an actual hot). This simply does not fit the “werewolf op” and ‘werewolf needs no changes’ narrative you and group wish to portray.

Someone provided a 4K parse for PvP on werewolf (so what does that mean exactly in relation to the PvP parses) and I quite literally did a breakdown of Redacted’s 6.7k parse using a common and very reasonable scenario I encounter in actual, factual PvP. I’m simply providing feedback, same as you after all my “werewolf seems fine on pts” amigo!

If you’d like- I can pull the tooltips from the ‘live werewolf PvP skills’ (again, we all consider live werewolf to be completely dog so it’s a good item to compare to) and ‘PTS werewolf PvP skills’ using same gear with proof there to give you a side-by-side highlighting where we received heavy nerfs in areas and where we are lacking in comparison to live werewolf/ to your average spec? If anyone wants this part, let me know. I’m not going through the trouble for this person alone (they’ve -these people- wasted enough of my existence).

Because, you know, the PvP community never overreacts here, especially not the Riften duelers or anything.

Wuuffyy · April 29

Also, would you believe me if I told you the majority of exploitable duel damage for werewolf berserker bleed ‘problem’ (again, it’s nerfed from live- everything I’m citing is from the original PTS patch notes this cycle)… came from this:

“This morph now grants Major Berserk while transformed. Updated the Bleed from this morph to apply on Light and Heavy Attacks, rather than only Light Attacks. The Bleed now appears to stack up to 5 times in total and upon reaching 5 stacks, the 1 second delay will be removed, allowing you to deal much more consistent damage while sticking to a target.”

They literally created the old (I think it was Rele) situation where you would have frequent ‘double ticks’ in PvP due to weaving directly after the original tick. when sticking to a target for 5 light attacks… i.e. a duel being the BEST example of this. This is made worse if the werewolf light attack cadence is still set differently than other specs (like it is on live). Removing this alone ‘while Battle Spirit active’ and then translating to this week’s PTS cycle would have been a significant nerf to DPS on duel parses while also not gutting the uptime (after all, for a top-end PvPer/dueler this is still doing the same potential DPS ergo just as manuveruable for ‘damage provided’ without that interaction).

I don’t know what else to relay to you or anyone else to help truly grasp these concepts. Outside of the animations and few other QoL items, werewolf feels worse in many ways for me compared to live when not exploiting certain class masteries. It’s at a point where I’d be happy to get many of the live tooltips back and simply add passive power ‘for monsters only’ and call it. I am a long term werewolf player that uses high damage and movement for primary survivability on live, and succeeds to great degree… yet I’m saying it definitely doesn’t feel as good as it should being a rework to bring us up to new specs.

Wuuffyy · April 29

Quoted post has been removed

And do what? I’m simply doing my best to prove that PvP testing with a player I met in game and not name dropping them and showing conversation relevant to our fights. Let me know if they need to be edited more for ToS but I believe this is okay.

I don’t just go around spouting “14k Eureka!” and providing no receipts so I did what I could to demonstrate this.

And the feedback right before I met the player, showing you that I’m clearly in IC, arena district testing under ‘battle spirit’ modifier.

Dovahmiim · April 29

Quoted post has been removed

He's right though, you use lots of words to self monologue and say nothing substantiative.
I'm not trying to insult you here, I'm trying to encourage you to focus on communicating things in a way that succinctly illustrates a point, post some gameplay or actual pvp CMX screenshots, instead of rambling.
Instead of getting offended, consider the possibility that what you may think is coherent feedback is actually
quite the opposite, from everyone else's perspective.

Wuuffyy · April 29

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

He's right though, you use lots of words to self monologue and say nothing substantiative.
I'm not trying to insult you here, I'm trying to encourage you to focus on communicating things in a way that succinctly illustrates a point, post some gameplay or actual pvp CMX screenshots, instead of rambling.
Instead of getting offended, consider the possibility that what you may think is coherent feedback is actually
quite the opposite, from everyone else's perspective.

I have provided feedback, same as anyone else. I don’t have to provide a parse for every suggestion or QoL improvement request I make, let alone a suggestion on a cosmetic change. “He’s right though” telling me to ‘stop yapping’. Come on people, you don’t like what I have to say so your response is ‘stop talking’ (google: yap/yapping). Who made y’all the rulers of these forums, really?

I’m not devolving this forum with either of you on this topic anymore. I did what I needed to do and I’m moving on with whatever feedback I choose to provide in whatever way I decide to do so that is within ToS.

I just hope this goes to show the level of inability anyone that disagrees has regarding demonstrating understanding/compassion for any long term, knowledgeable werewolf players (again me, I, don’t represent the ‘werewolf community’- just a long term werewolf player “that’s all” as a friendly reminder for the upteenth time).

p.s. I really wish they still had the class rep program that included werewolf. Then I could go provide feedback+ suggestions to someone who’d actually care remotely about the spec (maybe I wouldn’t need to message paragraphs to them since they’d actually understand how the kit worked and works now in this case) and anything relayed would come from a #certified “top end PvP player” without actually talking to you downright disingenuous people.

Erickson9610 · April 29

I left this comment in the Week 2 summary thread.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Can we please increase the intensity of the Berserker marks now that they only show when Rampage is ready? They aren't as intense as the glowing eyes and look off as a result. It's hard to tell when Rampage is ready because there is no sound effect which plays when the Fury meter is full, and the Berserker marks are barely visible.

Please increase the intensity of the Werewolf Berserker markings.

Chrlynsch · April 29

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Maybe we can opt out of the U50 Werewolf and just keep using the one from live? I know I'll enjoy it more.

U50 Werewolf handles like a dump truck compared to the live Werewolf, which feels like a sports sedan. Regardless of how much damage it can output, it feels terrible to play.

Skills are delayed and can be easily canceled(not animation cancel, I mean not actually cast) by light attacks and bash. Roar is the biggest offender. The cast time needs to be removed. 0.3s might as well be a full second or longer. If roar has to be delayed, make the impact delayed rather than the cast.

Skills connect at the wrong time if they connect at all. When dueling, at the beginning of a duel, my opponent would be at a distance. I would immediately roll dodge at the start, but take damage from a pounce while they were still standing on the ground at a distance. Then the pounce animation would occur. I can also be attacking an opponent directly in front of me and do zero damage to them.

Heavy attack Werewolf for U50 is dead. It was killed when fast heavy attacks were removed from Roar. New heavy attacks take 2 business days to que.

Hircine's Fortitude heals for 33% less than live, Rip and Tear heal was reduced by nearly half, and Blood Claws is now only a 6 second dot because PvP or something. Hircine's Fortitude needs to be stronger and it needs a HoT and a cross heal.

Are we being serious with the 1 second bleed on Berserker light attacks?

Are we being serious with 10% weapon damage down from 18% on live? This may be okay if we get weapon passives, but we're still waiting.

There were only a small amount of things that I really expected to see for Werewolf with the update:
-Weapon passives
-HoT and/or cross heal for Hircine's Fortitude
-Reduced cost for skills(specifically the heal)
-Improvement in skill functionality:
* Roar range and instant fast heavy attack activation
*Pounce being single cast with Carnage activating on impact.

We got one of those things. Reduced cost for skills. The cost reduction for the heal came with a significant nerf to the healing value.

Comparing weapon damage passives from live and pts is kind of like comparing apples and oranges with ability bases being adjusted.

The only thing directly nerfed would be scaling of procs in pvp. But even then we should factor in major courage buff for a werewolf as well.

IMO U50 Werewolf has significant survival improvements, more damage, flexibility and build variation than it does on live.

It's a pretty apples to apples comparison. The way they "balance" things for werewolf is and has always been to make one thing a little "better" and then take away or nerf something that already existed. It ends up coming out the same or worse.

More survivable? They nerfed healing and heal scaling on the burst heal. Survival depends largely on constantly attacking a target. No target no heal. That burst heal will NOT carry you through.

They removed an entire playstyle (my playstyle) by taking away fast heavy attacks. Now we play as tank wolf or dot wolf only. No hard hitting skills, no heavy attacks(unless you are trying to die). Bash weaving is now nearly mandatory too. Never have I seen so many Werewolves bash weaving (except me) than I have since the first day of pts.

Werewolf builds into armor pen and weapon damage, humans build into Onslaught.

There were a few things unique to Werewolf.
-Larger stamina pool (gone)
-18% Weapon damage buff (nerfed)
-33% faster heavy attacks (gone)
-30% faster movement speed(questionable)

I'm still trying to see how this as a whole is better. I would rather keep my live Werewolf.

Right you can't just look at a single stat change to compare you need to weigh the full fruit basket. PTS damage and sustain are in a much better place than live. For me the ability to actively roll dodge more due to better sustain is More impactful for survival than overhealing is. Spam heal is weaker but less expensive. Mobility is equal to live in terms of speed, and is better when rampage is engaged.

I would have liked to see some more pure class passives synergize better with ww form. But maybe this will come with class reworks.

Suggestions:
-add additional juice to brutal pounce. Diseased debuff, additional fury on ticks, heal absorb, snare immunity. Something nifty.
-give better indicator for rampage ready, audio/visual. Pack leader could grow another 10% while active.
-Lights attack weaving is still a bit clunky get cancelled too easily, to often.
-speed up the HA, lower the damage and base resorce return if necessary.

Dracane · April 29

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

WW seems fine on pts

This is awesome feedback! I type out pages worth of clearly separated sub-topics with genuine feedback and everyone else just drops some random ‘player parse’ from the depths of despair or ‘nerf work good’ comment and this seems to be what they are looking for. 🙃

Alright, let me start by saying that your last 10 or so posts have not been coherent at all. You might want to go back and reword those because it sounds like you are having a monologue with yourself that only you really understand. I think it would help the zos team.

Anyways, pts WW is still very strong. It’s still doing very good damage, the sustain is still good. It admittedly did get less healing. Overall, it seems to be in a more balanced state.

Do you mind submitting some of your own cmxs / clips or anything that can help others understand why you think WW is underperforming ? Perhaps we can look over the gameplay a bit.

Everything is coherent, I had provided my testing earlier in this post (way earlier in this thread I had provided some dummy parse numbers with PvP gear (prior to ‘on monsters’ slammed on every other thing)), and I have also provided descriptors with info above. Many of the suggestions I made simply offer to sidegrade power/ remove werewolf potential to abuse potential systems rather than an outright ‘buff werewolf damage’ so I can simply “be OP”.

Werewolf is still lacking in many areas and has indeed still has had significant reductions from live in several areas (again, berserker bleed duration change is diabolical; I still have nonexistent burst when everyone else has 2-3 burst moves; still don’t have an actual hot). This simply does not fit the “werewolf op” and ‘werewolf needs no changes’ narrative you and group wish to portray.

Someone provided a 4K parse for PvP on werewolf (so what does that mean exactly in relation to the PvP parses) and I quite literally did a breakdown of Redacted’s 6.7k parse using a common and very reasonable scenario I encounter in actual, factual PvP. I’m simply providing feedback, same as you after all my “werewolf seems fine on pts” amigo!

If you’d like- I can pull the tooltips from the ‘live werewolf PvP skills’ (again, we all consider live werewolf to be completely dog so it’s a good item to compare to) and ‘PTS werewolf PvP skills’ using same gear with proof there to give you a side-by-side highlighting where we received heavy nerfs in areas and where we are lacking in comparison to live werewolf/ to your average spec? If anyone wants this part, let me know. I’m not going through the trouble for this person alone (they’ve -these people- wasted enough of my existence).

Because, you know, the PvP community never overreacts here, especially not the Riften duelers or anything.

I would be interested in this. I have heard a few times that some aspects of WW are actually weaker. I know the weapon damage passive is reduced a bit in PvP, but I believed that all damage values were surely boosted. Otherwise it wouldn't produce this good DPS in pve and pvp?

Chrlynsch · April 30

Dracane wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

WW seems fine on pts

This is awesome feedback! I type out pages worth of clearly separated sub-topics with genuine feedback and everyone else just drops some random ‘player parse’ from the depths of despair or ‘nerf work good’ comment and this seems to be what they are looking for. 🙃

Alright, let me start by saying that your last 10 or so posts have not been coherent at all. You might want to go back and reword those because it sounds like you are having a monologue with yourself that only you really understand. I think it would help the zos team.

Anyways, pts WW is still very strong. It’s still doing very good damage, the sustain is still good. It admittedly did get less healing. Overall, it seems to be in a more balanced state.

Do you mind submitting some of your own cmxs / clips or anything that can help others understand why you think WW is underperforming ? Perhaps we can look over the gameplay a bit.

Everything is coherent, I had provided my testing earlier in this post (way earlier in this thread I had provided some dummy parse numbers with PvP gear (prior to ‘on monsters’ slammed on every other thing)), and I have also provided descriptors with info above. Many of the suggestions I made simply offer to sidegrade power/ remove werewolf potential to abuse potential systems rather than an outright ‘buff werewolf damage’ so I can simply “be OP”.

Werewolf is still lacking in many areas and has indeed still has had significant reductions from live in several areas (again, berserker bleed duration change is diabolical; I still have nonexistent burst when everyone else has 2-3 burst moves; still don’t have an actual hot). This simply does not fit the “werewolf op” and ‘werewolf needs no changes’ narrative you and group wish to portray.

Someone provided a 4K parse for PvP on werewolf (so what does that mean exactly in relation to the PvP parses) and I quite literally did a breakdown of Redacted’s 6.7k parse using a common and very reasonable scenario I encounter in actual, factual PvP. I’m simply providing feedback, same as you after all my “werewolf seems fine on pts” amigo!

If you’d like- I can pull the tooltips from the ‘live werewolf PvP skills’ (again, we all consider live werewolf to be completely dog so it’s a good item to compare to) and ‘PTS werewolf PvP skills’ using same gear with proof there to give you a side-by-side highlighting where we received heavy nerfs in areas and where we are lacking in comparison to live werewolf/ to your average spec? If anyone wants this part, let me know. I’m not going through the trouble for this person alone (they’ve -these people- wasted enough of my existence).

Because, you know, the PvP community never overreacts here, especially not the Riften duelers or anything.

I would be interested in this. I have heard a few times that some aspects of WW are actually weaker. I know the weapon damage passive is reduced a bit in PvP, but I believed that all damage values were surely boosted. Otherwise it wouldn't produce this good DPS in pve and pvp?

With the way some buffs and perks were shifted around a build some things will be weaker. But additional bonuses were added to some abilities that require self buffing to feel the benefit so you won't feel the benefit.

PTS Major has berserk on Berserker
PTS Hircines Rage has a 12% unique damage / Vulnerability modifier that didn't exist before a that is easier to trigger.
Live has major berserk on Hircines rage that was trickier to trigger.

PTS has Major Protection on Pack Leader and Minor protection on Deafening Roar. But deafening also gained major evasion.
Live has Major protection on Deafening Roar.

There is obviously a lot more to lay out, but overall summary is: if you don't self-buff yourself as a werewolf you may have abilities do less damage than their comparable ability on live. If you do self buff yourself your abilities will do more damage than live.

Then you can kick in rampage and do even more damage than on live.

In terms of survivability the biggest hit is the self heal potency.

Dracane · April 30

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

WW seems fine on pts

This is awesome feedback! I type out pages worth of clearly separated sub-topics with genuine feedback and everyone else just drops some random ‘player parse’ from the depths of despair or ‘nerf work good’ comment and this seems to be what they are looking for. 🙃

Alright, let me start by saying that your last 10 or so posts have not been coherent at all. You might want to go back and reword those because it sounds like you are having a monologue with yourself that only you really understand. I think it would help the zos team.

Anyways, pts WW is still very strong. It’s still doing very good damage, the sustain is still good. It admittedly did get less healing. Overall, it seems to be in a more balanced state.

Do you mind submitting some of your own cmxs / clips or anything that can help others understand why you think WW is underperforming ? Perhaps we can look over the gameplay a bit.

Everything is coherent, I had provided my testing earlier in this post (way earlier in this thread I had provided some dummy parse numbers with PvP gear (prior to ‘on monsters’ slammed on every other thing)), and I have also provided descriptors with info above. Many of the suggestions I made simply offer to sidegrade power/ remove werewolf potential to abuse potential systems rather than an outright ‘buff werewolf damage’ so I can simply “be OP”.

Werewolf is still lacking in many areas and has indeed still has had significant reductions from live in several areas (again, berserker bleed duration change is diabolical; I still have nonexistent burst when everyone else has 2-3 burst moves; still don’t have an actual hot). This simply does not fit the “werewolf op” and ‘werewolf needs no changes’ narrative you and group wish to portray.

Someone provided a 4K parse for PvP on werewolf (so what does that mean exactly in relation to the PvP parses) and I quite literally did a breakdown of Redacted’s 6.7k parse using a common and very reasonable scenario I encounter in actual, factual PvP. I’m simply providing feedback, same as you after all my “werewolf seems fine on pts” amigo!

If you’d like- I can pull the tooltips from the ‘live werewolf PvP skills’ (again, we all consider live werewolf to be completely dog so it’s a good item to compare to) and ‘PTS werewolf PvP skills’ using same gear with proof there to give you a side-by-side highlighting where we received heavy nerfs in areas and where we are lacking in comparison to live werewolf/ to your average spec? If anyone wants this part, let me know. I’m not going through the trouble for this person alone (they’ve -these people- wasted enough of my existence).

Because, you know, the PvP community never overreacts here, especially not the Riften duelers or anything.

I would be interested in this. I have heard a few times that some aspects of WW are actually weaker. I know the weapon damage passive is reduced a bit in PvP, but I believed that all damage values were surely boosted. Otherwise it wouldn't produce this good DPS in pve and pvp?

With the way some buffs and perks were shifted around a build some things will be weaker. But additional bonuses were added to some abilities that require self buffing to feel the benefit so you won't feel the benefit.

PTS Major has berserk on Berserker
PTS Hircines Rage has a 12% unique damage / Vulnerability modifier that didn't exist before a that is easier to trigger.
Live has major berserk on Hircines rage that was trickier to trigger.

PTS has Major Protection on Pack Leader and Minor protection on Deafening Roar. But deafening also gained major evasion.
Live has Major protection on Deafening Roar.

There is obviously a lot more to lay out, but overall summary is: if you don't self-buff yourself as a werewolf you may have abilities do less damage than their comparable ability on live. If you do self buff yourself your abilities will do more damage than live.

Then you can kick in rampage and do even more damage than on live.

In terms of survivability the biggest hit is the self heal potency.

What I wanted to know is this:only looking at buffs and passives is too short-sighted for me. Base damage modifiers matter just as much, and surely those did change (increase) compared to live? The heightened DPS of Werewolf betrays that it's active skills are stronger regardless of passive potency.

Wuuffyy · April 30

What I wanted to know is this:only looking at buffs and passives is too short-sighted for me. Base damage modifiers matter just as much, and surely those did change (increase) compared to live? The heightened DPS of Werewolf betrays that it's active skills are stronger regardless of passive potency.

I actually have all the screenshots with proof-of-build. Typing up and adding in just a bit. It's every bit as awful as I knew it was after my own PTS duel post-nerfs... this is why I KEPT asking for info on their parse and never got it (like masteries, proc sets that don't necessarily do damage, etc.)

Erickson9610 · April 30

Thank you for finally updating the help article for the Feeding Frenzy synergy! It's misleading the way it currently is in Update 49, because Feeding Frenzy is only sourced from Howl of Despair (not Piercing Howl or Howl of Agony as implied) and it no longer increases the damage of your Light Attacks. It also does not mention the increase to Critical Damage.

However, unfortunately the image used is now outdated, as the werewolf model has changed, the werewolf isn't shown using the ability which procs the synergy (and is in fact using an ability which no longer exists), and the ally is seen with VFX from Feeding Frenzy which no longer exist.

Additionally, the Feeding Frenzy icon still uses the Howl of Despair icon, which probably should be swapped out for a more thematic icon. Howl of Despair no longer is the sole source of Feeding Frenzy, so there's no reason to use this specific icon.

I would personally like to see one of these icons from the Werewolf Corpse Devourer achievement be used to represent Feeding Frenzy. I think the icon in the middle would work great, since the icon on the right is already being used for Rampage.

Wuuffyy · April 30

Hey people, I am going to format differently and keep this a brief 'see for yourself'. This took hours to compile everything correctly so I hope, maybe unlike previous posts, everyone can at least consider taking an honest look at this.

Dracane wrote: »

I would be interested in this.

(from at least 1 community member in the 'official werewolf feedback' thread).

Synopsis/more info:

As a result of this request/interest, especially, for this proposal-

I went on PTS and live so I could conduct a 'base values' test (so not carbo-loaded with mastery/proc cheese) comparison of the two (as a long term werewolf player, I had noticed almost immediately after reading the 1st week's patch notes that not everything was a buff so I've stayed skeptical in regards to PvP but only recently had the time to perform this demonstration).

I used the 'PvP damage morphs with healing howl' (the most logical choice, especially when going for maximum damage with sustainability) for each werewolf skill between live and PTS. To note here, you can sub out the health-based healing howl for a morph that increases damage taken by damage increased proportionality. This may have been a little more exploitable prior to rip and tear nerf as the heal itself tends to be significantly weaker than the health-based, healing howl on a PvP build... however post-nerf for incoming HPS, I no longer consider this a 'sustainable heal' there outside of the most optimal of scenarios.

Keep in mind that the PTS werewolf has an increase of 10% at all times thanks to major berserk... and still fails to reach (/gap) tooltip values of live in PvP (where werewolf is considered very weak in terms of viability). This is going to be primarily due to the removal of the 25% default increase for werewolf before any other tooltip increases on live, the Savage Strength passive value that we lost on PTS, and direct nerfs such as that of the werewolf berserker ultimate morph bleed dot (for PvP).

Proof of Build (live and PTS)

I used the exact same gear on both characters. This outlines as follows>

-Oakensoul w/ wep and spell enchant on both wolves to keep standard buff consistency (Oakensoul is the meta on live; I could only sub this out for things like Huntman's/Zaan's/unreliable damage proc like Vele/Selene's which I consider to be 'duel cheese' and very inconsistent in actual combat; to note- defensive options for 1/2 pc combinations ARE significantly better so that's a consideration but not impactful for damage).

-Orzorga's Smoked Bear Haunch Food (to give health scaling some oomph for easier view of tooltip disparity)

-Warrior damage mundus (to provide more organic weapon and spell damage for easier/more identifiable disparity between tool tips)

In terms of skills and passives. This outlines as follows>

-NO other skills or passives of any kind EXCEPT werewolf skills and passives.

-Absolutely no CP allotted.

-All attribute points for both toons were loaded as 64 points of stam (to clearly demonstrate difference b/w PTS no-stam-increase and live's werewolf stam increase)

Location for both toons>

Live wolf is in the 'infinite werewolf timer' house since it does not currently receive PvP-based damage reductions

PTS wolf is in the Imperial City Sewer Base so 'Battle Spirit' is active

Proof of build consistency>

Stat page

Live-

PTS-

No CP allotted

Live-

PTS-

Skills page overview (my skill points allotted)

Live-

PTS-

Now the tooltips comparison (live and PTS) and brief analysis for each, actives:

Werewolf Berserker (ultimate skill)

Live-

PTS-

Nerf. Significant DPS reduction along with horrendous uptime outside of the most optimal of scenarios (from higher tooltip damage and 4 seconds to lower tooltip damage and 1 second with 1 second delay).

Pounce

Live-

PTS-

Nerf in favor of QoL. We received the ability to use either/or instead of having to use the ability twice to receive the execute dot effect. This should have been the case prior regardless. As a result, we have lost the ability to source 600 weapon and spell damage unique to werewolf from this skill.

Healing Howl (health-based)

Live-

PTS-

This is a noticeable decrease from live, even despite major vitality buff provided by new healing howl. Relatively insignificant but we lost Minor Endurance and Minor Fortitude. This was more than acceptable prior with rip and tear having provided the majority of HPS regardless of scenario. Now, outside of fighting low-pressure builds and simply spamming rip and tear- this couples to result in a noticeable, substantial decrease in survivability when not on target (worse than live).

Roar

Live-

PTS-

This was a buff in some ways, and a nerf in others. Prior we received a pen increase, minor maim debuff, and major protection all-in-one for the "PvP morph". Now, you must choose b/w defense (major evasion and minor maim) and inability to use the synergy yourself... or a way to recoup some of the potential previously-mentioned pounce damage with named, Major Courage and a unique 6% increase buff. It however did receive a cast time which feels like a negative regardless. To note, you must essentially use 2 GCDs once every 20 seconds at a minimum (skill+synergy) to receive the maximum benefit of the 'damage morph'.

Howl of Agony/Bite (Rip and Tear)

Live-

PTS-

This one will be a bit longer, a point of contention.

Healing per second wise, while attacking this is a buff simply because this did not exist in any capacity prior. It receives some execute scaling on second hit at a very low value, so 25%... but this mean that it is dodgeable/very unforgiving/and fairly telegraphed in PvP. The actual damage the spammable does, especially without the Blood Hunger buff to add a damage increase any longer, is significantly lower than live (nerf). In fact, in these screenshots the live version is tool tipping for about ~20% more all time with the ability to be increased by yet another 20% when terrified and off balance are up.

The guaranteed status effect certainly provides damage value however is both very susceptible to PvP nerf requests for status effects and is simply guaranteeing something I had a roughly ~16% (10% without CP) chance on prior. So it's negating potential burst by guaranteeing the status effect in the power budget. This was always our 'pseudo-burst move' for live as we do not have an actual burst move of any kind for whatever reason (even on PTS, even now).

It's worth nothing that it also received a range nerf (10m-> 7m) in favor of no longer being considered a projectile ~I assume~ (so depending on who you are fighting and the situation you're in, this part can be a buff/nerf).

Claws

Live-

PTS-

Another slightly-lengthy one.

This is a nerf in every capacity against players on live in terms of damage. I mentioned 'status effects' having value and it had more value here as dots have a relatively low chance of procing their status effect, especially an AoE status effect at this one. Essentially what they did was take the dot, slightly reduce its dps, and then condensed it into 10 seconds while removing the guaranteed status effect. The guaranteed status effect was doing roughly the damage of a standard 'melee' spammable within 10 seconds (so you received 5 diseased procs in 5 seconds, in other words).

This means that while the DPS remained roughly the same, when they reduced the time to 6 seconds from 10 seconds with the recent PTS nerfs, this became significantly less damage per cast than the live version. While becoming more awkward to manage with there being a difference between ads and players for duration. We gained some potential HPS 'while attacking' on this one but lost major and minor defile (so less sustain pressure which I feel is considered thematic for werewolf).

Now the tooltip comparisons (live and PTS) and brief analysis for each, passives:

Devour/Insatiable

Live-

PTS-

This is a buff, no doubt about it. However, you are very unlikely to use this in the heat of combat but definitely considerable for a 'top off'.

Pursuit/Chase

Live-

PTS-

No changes here either way. Some who have tested on PTS are saying the speed increase potentially isn't calculating correctly.

Blood Rage

Live-

PTS-

This is a buff and a nerf. It essentially is the primary way you are going to sustain form as a berserker (werewolf ultimate, damage morph; if you try and 'hold' this as a solo berserker... you'll struggle in all but a constant 1v1 situation). It became 'an ult' for us that doesn't necessarily provide a damage/heal proc. As a result, we now use a significant amount of ult every 10 seconds (aside from Packleader or with other wolves) and our 'sustain' bar became our 'fury' bar. It is almost primarily gained by using werewolf skills, moreso for the 'damage morphs'. It takes a considerable amount (I think fair though) of constant combat to build to full. It is heavily telegraphed now with markings while the werewolf user has it ready/is in 'rampage'.

Savage Strength/Feral

Live-

PTS-

Another somewhat-lengthy analysis.

This is a straight and hefty nerf from live that you can immediately see in the 'setting' screenshots above. It's 18% in PvP on live and was nerfed to 10% on PTS... they had intended for this to release at 36% for both PvE and PvP originally. The more 'base' weapon and spell damage you have, the greater the disparity in actual damage lost regarding the nerfed weapon/spell values.

On a side note, this+ the PvE claws morph, and the 'on monsters' Berserker dot are why PvE parses can be so substantial on PTS now (PvE werewolf basically went from a bugged passive that didn't work last week to having almost a ~40%, unique wep/spell increase in that setting; think of injecting a 'steroid' of stats that increased parse values artificially).

Bloodmoon

Live-

PTS-

No changes here, roleplaying passive. If any passive power needed to be added, unrelated to the skills themselves (such as pen), this passive would be a prime candidate.

Call of the Pack/Hunt

Live-

PTS-

So this is technically a buff, but because of the increased costs to form sustain (especially for solo berserker werewolf), and loss of blood rage- this is really more like a 'neutral'.

~End of Tooltip Comparison (live and PTS)~

To note, we had reduced costs added to werewolf. This helps a lot in PvE (less doing anything but damage roto). This was neither requested from PvPers nor does it make it up for tooltips losses or complete invalidation of heavy attacking for resources. The healing howl (either morph) stam-sustain change and a removal of the '25% cost increase' to our skills prior would have been sufficient enough without these stark cost reductions. I'd rather this sustain change stay in myself as I understand we're entering a 'new era' and it does increase build variety, but as far as PvP goes- this should not be considered as a viable reason to keep tooltips lower than live where, again, werewolf is considered 'nonviable'/very off meta.

It appears with the stat infusion (whopping 40% unique increase to weapon and spell in PvE), a unique bleed for PvE-only from the berserker morph, the ability to more freely use the damage-healing-howl, and aforementioned cost reduction- PvE werewolf is in a good state from live. PvP on the other hand is much more of a mixed bag that seems almost exclusively tuned to cheese class masteries and procs w/ some increased HPS-while-attacking and falling flat just about everywhere else...

Werewolf players have waited at least half a decade for a rework. Please consider this feedback and easily everything page ~15 and beyond from 'the official werewolf feedback thread' before leaving werewolf behind for another 5 or 10 years again in PvP (for those that don't know, forum PTS week '.3' is typically where you get the bulk of any given PTS' balance changes. If you don't receive them during that week, you are unlikely to receive any other significant balance changes before live and I'm sure we know how that has went for werewolf it the past). Not every suggestion there is requesting a 'power increase' but rather side-grades or power adjustments like removing toxic interaction b/w certain masteries in exchange for furthering in-kit viability, etc.

*link (to majority of new 'official werewolf' feedback for this week of PTS so far): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691083/u50-feedback-thread-for-combat-refresh-werewolf/p16

*I may have to edit this for spelling/grammar inconsistencies (I'm nowhere near perfect, haha). *decided to ~spoiler~ the skills comparisons to try and enhance readability. *decided to also spoiler 'proof of build' *added linked to werewolf feedback thread starting p16 (majority new feedback) *added reasoning/explanation for higher PvE parses outside of active/passive analysis

Wuuffyy · April 30

Here are my suggestions to make this information more actionable for the combat team:

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I went on PTS and live...

My own personal suggestion on how and where to make improvements where I personally see fit after my demonstration above and testing against 'meta efficiency PvP builds' on PTS. All of these will be PvP-suggested changes should have relatively little to no impact on PvE in terms of parse DPS. Many of these will provide reasoning as to the 'why' whenever possible.

Suggestions for general werewolf-

Under level 50 PvP:

Simply disable the ultimate use. The cost decrease and minor/major buffs provided alone are enough to allow a 'smurf' to wreak havok in this content. I don't want werewolf to be further, negatively adjusted on live for this whimsical interaction.

Class mastery (sorc):

Sorc has been underperforming for quite some time in PvE. It makes sense for the 'class mastery' passives to be strong. With that being said, these class masteries are far too volatile in their current state for werewolf. Disable these particular 'class mastery' passives for werewolf (for now until sorc rework). If able/needed, feel free to provide werewolf its own version of 'class mastery' instead. This would be 5 passives, choice of 2 focus on VERY SMALL damage increases (so like 4-8% somehow or another on 2 damage passives), then it could be 'hircine's fortitude shares 50% of healing value to other werewolves in melee range', 'when activating rampage, purge all negative effects', etc.

Weapon passives:

All I ask for here is the ability to take benefit from the dual-wield crit/pen/wep/or crit damage passive so I can properly build in for the small amount of crit (PvE) and the small amount of Pen (PvP) so I'm not necessarily required to build for more-crit-than-normal in sets (PvE) and more pen-than-normal in sets (PvP).

Please keep the 'major expedition' interaction from bow also. It's currently working that way already on PTS.

Suggestions for active skills/ultimate-

Werewolf Berserker DoT Uptime:

I recommend at least restoring to a 2 second, non refreshable dot or rather upping back to 4 seconds since the major offender (listed below) was removed. If we cannot do this, please rework this morph and move the dot power anywhere else damage-wise for PvP (although... that would be tremendously disappointing for a 'bleeding' werewolf)

The bleed time was already nerfed from live even prior to last week's change (the damage value had actually already been reduced along with uptime of ~1 second). This is what was being exploited in duels (it was allows for the toxic 'double tick' that Relequen used to provide.

This was the exact note from the original PTS patch that allowed for this interaction-

"This morph now grants Major Berserk while transformed. Updated the Bleed from this morph to apply on Light and Heavy Attacks, rather than only Light Attacks. The Bleed now appears to stack up to 5 times in total and upon reaching 5 stacks, the 1 second delay will be removed, allowing you to deal much more consistent damage while sticking to a target."...

The 'removed the delay' part when sticking on target was your only offender outside of live version values.

Healing Howl (either morph):

I'd potentially removing some of the remaining 'claws' morph healing per second and translating this into the addition of a small hot on either morph of the healing howl (scaling off damage for 'damage healing howl' and scaling off health for the 'health healing howl').

The 'Hircine's Rage' (damage healing howl) has a rather weak heal compared to anything we seen on live and even the 'health healing howl' on PTS. I believe it could use some love. You take up to 12% increased damage for a 12% damage increase (so proportional). This would be a prime candidate for MINOR RESOLVE as the increased damage is already combatting the power efficiency and many DPS in both PvE and PvP have ready access to 'resolving vigor' for this buff. If you're wondering about 'why don't we just reduce the damage taken at that point'... it can still help at full value with a beginning-of-fight opening 'gank'.

Roar (QoL suggestion only):

In both mediums of content, maximum efficiency of the 'damage roar' involves the user using 1 GCD (using the skill) doing no damage and 1 GCD (using the synergy) doing no damage every 20 seconds. This coupled with the addition of the .3 second cast time makes this skill feel bad and rather clunky to use. If at all possible, I think this could be alleviated in a health way by having the user 'auto-cast' the self-synergy on the initial use if they are able to use this synergy again.

Rip and Tear (specifically):

This is your 'PvP morph'. You can get around not building major and minor breach for the pen in PvE... but you absolutely cannot go without this pen increase in PvP especially with purges/target movement (into group), etc. as you do not have a reliable way to sorc pen except for sets (which everyone else can already do too).

With that being said, if it's your PvP move and this is my 'pseudo replacement for burst' and yet is a reduction from potential-on-live, this could be better in the damage department.

I have 2 (either/or) pathways for recommendation here-

Now that the toxic HPS has been nearly cut in half, I recommend restoring the 'Blood Hunger' damage increase and leaving this alone entirely beyond that.

OR

You can give the 'sundered' guaranteed status effect to 'Bloody Gnash' (morph; you'd remove the guaranteed bleed at this point of course), give this morph minor breach as a debuff instead, and give it the Stone Fist treatment as on live DK (once every 3 casts or so, you 'empower' your next one (I believe by ~50 or 60% meaning the actual DPS of this skill should be roughly the same on parses as right now.

Claws (the 'DoT'/non-PvE morph):

The duration decrease here was absolutely unnecessary and simply serves to negatively impact quality-of-life. I would absolute restore this more back to its original duration of 10 seconds on PTS while potentially removing some of the HPS here in favor of returning that as a small HoT on the 'healing howl'.

I would prefer this morph have major defile and minor defile re-added (but not the status proc), but I could see this being out of the power budget, especially if we don't give (remove) some of the HPS here and returning to healing howl.

Suggestions for passive skills-

Devour/initiable:

I would make this provide 30 or 45 seconds of 'sustain time' versus the ~12 or so it does now. This makes corpse consumption more impactful and lenient during downtime in both PvE and PvP without breaking the system of 'working to keep your form maintained (as a solo berserker).

Savage Strength-

I'd simply request to bump this up to 16% in PvP instead of the 10% we have now so that it's closer to live (so 6% more wep/spell). This would provide a cleaner more rationale 'reduction' while allowing the change of this passive to be less of a straight nerf from live.

In summation, nothing I provided is outright injecting power into werewolf 'for free' over live/other classes/etc. and everything suggested is simply a tooltip change/add 'minor buff' here/ disable ultimate in under 50 PvP/ disable this 'mastery passive' (of course I provided a potential alternative to this one).

I think these few simple changes would round out werewolf, help curb toxic interactions, and allow environment on post-release live be a healthier place (especially in under-50 PvP content).

~END~

*edits (like OP) should be primarily spelling/ grammar

@ZOS_Kevin

React · April 30

Some more testing from today. In my last post from Tuesday of this week I mentioned that it seemed WW had been reigned in a bit, but it turns out we were just using "bad" builds - if you can call dealing 8k DPS with 40k HP a "bad" build. Absolutely insane how disgustingly strong WW is, even post nerfs. I really do not understand how you're expected to fight something like this in a PVP environment.

Turns out Sorc class mastery passives aren't the only thing that can push WW to completely unbearable levels. Here is a 50k HP WW build doing 10k DPS in duels (sometimes as high as 14k dps, as seen in the video below), with almost 10k weapon damage as a warden. THIS BUILD HAS 50k HP. No "gimmicky" weaving set required. Critting 20k+ burst heals because of the 50k HP. To be clear, no non-WW build can reach these numbers. It isn't possible.

These CMX parses are fairly short because you cannot survive this on any normal PVP build.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cimNmqOUHk8

Here's another fun CMX. Earlier in this thread, another user shared their target skeleton parses using a PVP build to demonstrate that WW was somehow fine in PVP. Personally I think this is completely irrelevant, because the two environments are very different and there are many mitigation/healing/mobility factors to consider in PVP that do not apply to PVE. However, the 50k HP WW build from above was tested on the trial dummy just for fun.

It parsed 100k+ DPS. While wearing Impenetrable, mixed weight, PVP gear with defensive PVP CP in. With 50k HP.

Wuuffyy · April 30

React wrote: »

but it turns out we were just using "bad" builds - if you can call dealing 8k DPS with 40k HP a "bad" build. Absolutely insane how disgustingly strong WW is, even post nerfs.

Please @React 😅, I didn’t make them add all of the health scaling. Not everything is a duel and not everything I suggested is a straight increase to any particular thing or outside of reason.

I agree the health scaling in PvP is rather atrocious and the fact that I am incentivized to do that instead of benefit from mild damage increases by stacking tri-stat that I already do now isn’t my cup of tea either. If anything they could make these heals scale exclusively off max stat+wep/spell while ‘under battle spirit’ and have ‘Hircine’s fortitude’ just be the one that scales with more wep/spell for less damage than the other if they wanted to resolve this particular problem in PvP.

Additionally while I agree 100k ST damage is a woeful number in terms of competitive DPS, it is certainly toxic to be doing so with 50k health. I think an adjustment of the PvE values of the weapon and spell damage passive (woo- 40% unique wep/spell steroid) would be an appropriate stop gap to work on bringing that back down to easily sub 100k ST for a build like that while they do R and D on how to better separate max health from the werewolf kit as a whole (except for tanking).

Keep in mind, we werewolf players aren’t trying to play werewolf so we can meta hop or have it nerfed because we don’t want to move to the new meta that offers less customization- we need it to be a noticeable improvement of live and aside from health-based, HPS-while-attacking/ cheesing procs,etc. using the generic damage buffs, nothing I demonstrated truly is.

Hekk, above I provided a layout for returning to the majority of the values on live and keeping the animations. Everyone deserves better here after all.

@React and any devs, ideas on next patch how to mitigate more toxic interactions while leaving room for tooltip changes so this can be an all-around improvement from live when not cheesing.

*edited for grammar/readability/etc. like my other posts+ add reference to another post

SlagasaurusRex · April 30

I am sympathetic to the unique fear that a playstyle neglected for close to a decade will be adjusted yet again to irrelevancy (or at least to a point where it gets eclipsed by forthcoming full class reworks). However, I do not believe that is cause for the hysterics or catastrophizing seen herein.

In my personal opinion, a reworked class ought to feel a bit overpowered on release & should feel fun to play (on both sides of the coin). Even if, in theory, one-bar builds ought to trade its simplified ability economy for power: a werewolf rework on release should feels like it slightly outperforms current meta options.

My contention here is that its been shown to me at least that WW, even in its current post-nerf state, is performing at a level far beyond that ideal.

On PTS currently, WWs are: highly mobile melee bruisers who can dish out extremely high rates of consistent dps when they dive a player; i.e 'get on top of you.' Their mobility additionally means they can stay on you with relative ease & dive players fairly easily. At the same time, WWs can be built as extremely bulky tanks while maintaining unforeseen levels of damage. Lets recap: on werewolf you are 1) extremely dangerous in melee range, 2) highly mobile and 3) very tanky at the same time.

This equilibrium is obviously untenable: power without drawbacks make for poor power-fantasies and even worse gameplay experiences. My proposal is to let WW keeps its *current* overperformance in damage and mobility in exchange for making them frail so players get rewarded for good movement, positioning & execution (and get punished for badly executed dives or bursts). Or some other configuration of 3 choose 2.

Werewolf shouldn't be both a top level bruiser/juggernaut and a top level diver/skirmisher with the most simplified ability/rotation economy in the game. If it is to excel at all (as compared to other specs), let it be in one of those areas and not both.

-Slags

dark_hunterxmg · April 30

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Keep in mind, we werewolf players aren’t trying to play werewolf so we can meta hop or have it nerfed because we don’t want to move to the new meta that offers less customization- we need it to be a noticeable improvement of live and aside from health-based, HPS-while-attacking/ cheesing procs,etc. using the generic damage buffs, nothing I demonstrated truly is.

All I wanted was a slightly improved version of what is on live. I don't want it to be "meta", and I certainly don't want it to be whatever the heck it is right now.
I like the health scaling on heals the way that it has always been. The reason we're running close to 50k hp or higher is because the burst heal actually kinda sucks now and you need that in order to scale it up enough to be kinda okay. The weapon damage scaling heal isn't even really worth it with the poor scaling and damage taken trade offs.

SlagasaurusRex · April 30

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

but it turns out we were just using "bad" builds - if you can call dealing 8k DPS with 40k HP a "bad" build. Absolutely insane how disgustingly strong WW is, even post nerfs.

Please @React 😅, I didn’t make them add all of the health scaling. Not everything is a duel and not everything I suggested is a straight increase to any particular thing or outside of reason.

I agree the health scaling in PvP is rather atrocious and the fact that I am incentivized to do that instead of benefit from mild damage increases by stacking tri-stat that I already do now isn’t my cup of tea either. If anything they could make these heals scale exclusively off max stat+wep/spell while ‘under battle spirit’ and have ‘Hircine’s fortitude’ just be the one that scales with more wep/spell for less damage than the other if they wanted to resolve this particular problem in PvP.

Additionally while I agree 100k ST damage is a woeful number in terms of competitive DPS, it is certainly toxic to be doing so with 50k health. I think an adjust of the PvE values of the weapon and spell damage passive (woo- 40% unique wep/spell steroid) would be an appropriate stop gap to work on bringing that back down to easily sub 100k ST for a build like that while they do R and D on how to better separate max health from the werewolf kit as a whole (except for tanking).

Keep in mind, we werewolf players aren’t trying to play werewolf so we can meta hop or have it nerfed because we don’t want to move to the new meta that offers less customization- we need it to be a noticeable improvement of live and aside from health-based, HPS-while-attacking/ cheesing procs,etc. using the generic damage buffs, nothing I demonstrated truly is.

Hekk, above I provided a layout for returning to the majority of the values on live and keeping the animations. Everyone deserves better here after all.

Its not unreasonable to extrapolate general power levels in other PVP contexts from 1v1 examples. The refrain of "not everything is a duel" is getting somewhat tiring and and less persuasive every time its repeated. I also do not think it necessarily helps your case. If WW is being able to output 10K dps with 50K health in a 1v1 context, imagine what three or four of them together will do in a BG or in Cyrodiil. Far from an instance where the problem might be unique to dueling, I think duels might understate the potential gameplay implications unless other people have compelling reasons as to why it might not.

dark_hunterxmg · April 30

We should definitely put all of our trust in this guy though.