U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf

React · April 27

Today's changes look pretty reasonable overall! I think with WW's retaining the ability to use their class mastery passives and no adjustment to conserveration of energy, they're still very likely going to be the top parsing 1v1 spec. Looking forward to getting on the PTS this week to test some of these out.

Love the overall focus with WW and elsewhere on separating PVP and PVE within tooltips. We need more of this!

coop500 · April 27

Erickson9610 wrote: »

The changes in Week 3 are a direct nerf compared to what we have on Live, as far as PvP goes. Savage Strength now gives 10% WD/SD, while on Live it gives 18%.

Can we not make Werewolf worse than it already is?

I could defo see it fair to buff this to the half mark, 16% instead of 10%. That would make the passive fairly cut in half.

Erickson9610 · April 27

Above all, what bugs me is that DoT durations are being shortened in PvP. The muscle memory from PvE isn't going to properly carry over into PvP, and vice versa.

I'm okay with damage being reduced against players, but fundamentally changing how a skill works depending on whether the target is a player or not is frustrating. I'd much rather the experience be consistent across PvP/PvE.

dark_hunterxmg · April 27

Erickson9610 wrote: »

The changes in Week 3 are a direct nerf compared to what we have on Live, as far as PvP goes. Savage Strength now gives 10% WD/SD, while on Live it gives 18%.

Can we not make Werewolf worse than it already is?

They also reduced the heal on Rip and Tear, but didn't add that value into the burst heal, which is 33% less than live. Still no real HoT or cross heal.

Inari Telvanni · April 27

Inari Telvanni wrote: »

I have mentioned this in a thread, but I'd like to point out that Werewolves used to be able to use emotes during wolf form. This was later removed, and while it was disappointing, it made enough sense- you were not able to stay in wolf form long enough to find any use in them.

However, with the refresh, you can stay in wolf form outside of combat indefinitely. A big bonus for roleplayers and screenarchers would be if we had access to these emotes again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-xJBkv9zxY

Still no reference to werewolf emotes being considered by the team. Is it just an impossibility?

dark_hunterxmg · April 27

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Above all, what bugs me is that DoT durations are being shortened in PvP. The muscle memory from PvE isn't going to properly carry over into PvP, and vice versa.

I'm okay with damage being reduced against players, but fundamentally changing how a skill works depending on whether the target is a player or not is frustrating. I'd much rather the experience be consistent across PvP/PvE.

This is especially bad if we are expected to use blood claws as part of our healing kit.

coop500 · April 27

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

The changes in Week 3 are a direct nerf compared to what we have on Live, as far as PvP goes. Savage Strength now gives 10% WD/SD, while on Live it gives 18%.

Can we not make Werewolf worse than it already is?

They also reduced the heal on Rip and Tear, but didn't add that value into the burst heal, which is 33% less than live. Still no real HoT or cross heal.

Yeah the Rip and Tear nerf across the board is a little sad. I feel like the other morph of Gnash needed more going for it instead of fully nerfing Rip and Tear.

Wuuffyy · April 27

Balance changes seem incredibly harsh for PvP, especially the fact we kept the reduction to our main heal that we can use while not attacking (healing howl). I was hoping the nerf to rip and tear healing along with the borderline strange reduction of the claws dot/hot from 20 seconds on live to 6 seconds (did I read this right) on players would at least net in a re-increase of our main heal (healing howl) to semi-live values adjusted for the major vitality.

Uptime of 1 sec with a 1 sec delay (I honestly hope I didn’t read that right) for berserker bleed on players with an already-nerfed base tooltip from 4 seconds on live.

I honestly believe this is why we shouldn’t be balancing on ‘what we can do in a duel’ and the harshness and immediacy of these changes seem like a clear demonstration as to why for me.

Can we please just have weapon passives back? I would at least like a way to regain penetration without being forced to run 1-2 sets dedicated to penetration only, if that would be okay.

Wuuffyy · April 27

Erickson9610 wrote: »

The changes in Week 3 are a direct nerf compared to what we have on Live, as far as PvP goes. Savage Strength now gives 10% WD/SD, while on Live it gives 18%.

Can we not make Werewolf worse than it already is?

Apparently we’re the “werewolf community” so our thoughts and opinions ‘don’t matter’ from what I’m gathering from about all sources that do matter. I didn’t want to put anything like this but as heavy handed and quick as this was, I don’t think there is anything else I can say to be honest- this is what it feels like.

We still have no burst so once they finally work to ‘get the DPS back to around 5k in a duel, I guess I’ll go back to struggling to kill anyone without a pure damage build where damage returned to me is half or more of my healthbar (because reworks).

But hey, at least we can tank and dps with our melee-beam flavoring in PvE, right??

“we should be happy as werewolf isn’t a class after all”… it just functions identically to one except that it’s one bar.

*I'm being dramatic y'all, I'm really hoping for the best in all of these otherwise I clearly wouldn't be typing.

allochthons · April 27

I dunno. A ranged taunt such as "Yo mama was an Alfiq" seems like it might be effective...

IncultaWolf · April 27

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Above all, what bugs me is that DoT durations are being shortened in PvP. The muscle memory from PvE isn't going to properly carry over into PvP, and vice versa.

I'm okay with damage being reduced against players, but fundamentally changing how a skill works depending on whether the target is a player or not is frustrating. I'd much rather the experience be consistent across PvP/PvE.

This is especially bad if we are expected to use blood claws as part of our healing kit.

No we're expected to all play sorc werewolf and abuse Conservation of Energy for infinite sustain and burst heals 🐺

huskandhunger · April 27

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Erin

So we are refreshing werewolf by weakening their Savage Strength passive from current live values of 18% in PVP to 10% in PVP in addition to battle spirit reductions?...that sounds like a fantastic way to drop the ball on a refresh, way to go.

luckiestlycan · April 27

Honestly, from what I've seen I honestly don't think werewolf needed to get nerfed so soon, it sounds more like Conservative Energy needed the nerf; I don't want to feel like I have to play a Sorc Werewolf to be an effective Werewolf.
And Rip and Tear getting it's healing brutalized was not desired, like atleast to me, having good self survivability feels incredibly thematic for Werewolf.

xylena · April 27

luckiestlycan wrote: »

I don't want to feel like I have to play a Sorc Werewolf to be an effective Werewolf

Don't worry you can also play Pyrebrand DK WW /s

I did bring this up in that train wreck thread, a few people had the idea of unique WW Class Mastery, then it got lost under all the "no I want to be broken op" comments.

coop500 · April 27

luckiestlycan wrote: »

Honestly, from what I've seen I honestly don't think werewolf needed to get nerfed so soon, it sounds more like Conservative Energy needed the nerf; I don't want to feel like I have to play a Sorc Werewolf to be an effective Werewolf.
And Rip and Tear getting it's healing brutalized was not desired, like atleast to me, having good self survivability feels incredibly thematic for Werewolf.

Yeah the nerf to Rip and Tear is a shame. I need to test it in the IA but I suspect it's gonna be rough.

Solo PvE werewolves matter too.

I also feel like the main issue wasn't with Rip and Tear being overpowered (i mean, maybe a little, but not this much) but the fact the other morph doesn't have enough going for it to be worth taking.

Wuuffyy · April 27

coop500 wrote: »

luckiestlycan wrote: »

Honestly, from what I've seen I honestly don't think werewolf needed to get nerfed so soon, it sounds more like Conservative Energy needed the nerf; I don't want to feel like I have to play a Sorc Werewolf to be an effective Werewolf.
And Rip and Tear getting it's healing brutalized was not desired, like atleast to me, having good self survivability feels incredibly thematic for Werewolf.

Yeah the nerf to Rip and Tear is a shame. I need to test it in the IA but I suspect it's gonna be rough.

Solo PvE werewolves matter too.

If you use this morph and actually commit to it you’ll have mediocre cleave. This heal is no where near as impactful as crit surge is to a PvE DPS (sustained healing while doing damage) and requires you to stop using the skill that even remotely makes werewolf viable in end-game PvE groups (claws).

PvP werewolves matter too, especially those that aren’t abusing proc sets and borked sorc class mastery passives.

Wuuffyy · April 27

xylena wrote: »

luckiestlycan wrote: »

I don't want to feel like I have to play a Sorc Werewolf to be an effective Werewolf

Don't worry you can also play Pyrebrand DK WW /s

I did bring this up in that train wreck thread, a few people had the idea of unique WW Class Mastery, then it got lost under all the "no I want to be broken op" comments.

Pyrebrand now generates a single stack of wildfire once every 12 seconds. ~whoosh~

In other words, for werewolves, it took a 30-40% nerf at live AND you have to focus class mastery… for roleplaying fire purposes ig.

p.s I was one of the few who provided a thought-out way of ‘werewolf class mastery’ and even made a thread for it.

Soarora · April 27

Can it be added so that the aetherial well fills the rage bar?

JimT722 · April 27

I like the visual changes to the werewolf morphs glyphs. massive improvement

Darkness734 · April 27

wow they are starting to gut the werewolf refresh with these nerfs. SMH. seriously as DEVs how can you guys cater the the vocal minority and try to balance a game that is UNDERGOING A COMPLETE CLASS REFRESH. That makes absolutely no sense, THE WHOLE GAME WILL BE UNBALANACED EVERYTIME A REFRESH IS IMPLEMENTED. Theres no point in refreshing then nerfing the refresh right back into the ground where it previously was so a refreshed class is equal-ish to a non refreshed class.

The werewolf refresh is what got me interested in ESO again but if they keep gutting it I definitely won't be returning.

Werewolves need weapon passives btw. it will help with build diversity

coop500 · April 27

Darkness734 wrote: »

wow they are starting to gut the werewolf refresh with these nerfs. SMH. seriously as DEVs how can you guys cater the the vocal minority and try to balance a game that is UNDERGOING A COMPLETE CLASS REFRESH. That makes absolutely no sense, THE WHOLE GAME WILL BE UNBALANACED EVERYTIME A REFRESH IS IMPLEMENTED. Theres no point in refreshing then nerfing the refresh right back into the ground where it previously was so a refreshed class is equal-ish to a non refreshed class.

The werewolf refresh is what got me interested in ESO again but if they keep gutting it I definitely won't be returning.

Werewolves need weapon passives btw. it will help with build diversity

Agreed, and people are pushing for MORE nerfs on top of it all. That's the last thing we need. Refreshes are supposed to be fun, not left feeling sad about what we could have had.

Erickson9610 · April 27

I have a bit of feedback regarding the icons for the three Werewolf Form Skill Styles:

Why is Ashen depicted as grey in the icon, but the texture looks brown?
Why is the color of the background and eyes of each icon not accurate to what the respective textures look like? I would've expected Black to have red (because Berserker has red markings), Ashen to have blue (because unmorphed has blue markings), and White to have green (because Pack Leader has green markings). The eye color also doesn't actually change with these styles, which makes the icons misleading.
Why doesn't the White icon show the albino look that the texture has? Players may be expecting an arctic themed Werewolf because there's no pink in the icon.

I do have to say that I like the color changes done to the armored human half of the icons. It's a bit hard to tell in the original three icons that the right half is meant to be a human wearing armor, so I appreciate the change in color of the armor to contrast with the change in color of the werewolf's fur.

Also, regarding the Skill Stylist: Werewolf Form achievement:

Can we get the icons at each stage to show the icon of the associated Skill Style earned at that stage? The main icon could remain using this unused "Werewolf Form, Red" style graphic.

Dracane · April 27

Darkness734 wrote: »

wow they are starting to gut the werewolf refresh with these nerfs. SMH. seriously as DEVs how can you guys cater the the vocal minority and try to balance a game that is UNDERGOING A COMPLETE CLASS REFRESH. That makes absolutely no sense, THE WHOLE GAME WILL BE UNBALANACED EVERYTIME A REFRESH IS IMPLEMENTED. Theres no point in refreshing then nerfing the refresh right back into the ground where it previously was so a refreshed class is equal-ish to a non refreshed class.

The werewolf refresh is what got me interested in ESO again but if they keep gutting it I definitely won't be returning.

Werewolves need weapon passives btw. it will help with build diversity

I found it noticably stronger in pve today and from the few minutes I watched people fight in Riften, all I saw was 2 Werewolves thrashing Sorcs (so not WWs themselves) to death. Both on Packleader and Berserker.

It seems overall much stronger and still completely able in pvp. Still constantly topped of HP and constant pressure. That is only my brief, anecdotal reverie though.

Decimus · April 27

Well, there goes any hype I had for playing werewolf in PvP... it's not like people with knowledge kept pointing out to the actual issues (Conservation of Power & burst heal on spammable), but no let's blanket nerf literally everything so it remains terrible compared to DKs, sorcs, probably even wardens (which can do 8k+ DPS easily with status mythic+aerie's+asylum staff).

I thought the idea behind the reworks was to buff things to DK tier, but here we are with werewolf remaining significantly weaker (especially the non-sorc ones with very limited heals and sustain).

You'll still have infinite dodge rolls burst healing you with Gorethief+Dark Magic though (as a sorc, tough luck if playing WW on other classes)... and pretty much infinite sustain, just no damage to kill things in PvP.

JimT722 · April 27

I didn't notice much of a difference fighting world bosses on master as a werewolf. Hopefully, people better than I will test tanking and damage with the new changes.

huskandhunger · April 27

Since we are making Werewolf Berserker bleed come down from the 4 seconds in PVE to the diminutive 1 second in PVP, could we simply replace this and find something more impactful for damage and thematic for a werewolf that is supposed to go on a rampage please? @ZOS_Kevin 1 second just seems not so noticeable at all I'm a afraid.

The recent nerfs really are missing the mark and I would suggest reverting them or coming up with alternative ideas and going back to the drawing board.

At this point I would rather have the werewolf kit on Live with the visuals and sound effects of the PTS.

This is a failure, werewolf players deserve better.

Wuuffyy · April 27

coop500 wrote: »

luckiestlycan wrote: »

Honestly, from what I've seen I honestly don't think werewolf needed to get nerfed so soon, it sounds more like Conservative Energy needed the nerf; I don't want to feel like I have to play a Sorc Werewolf to be an effective Werewolf.
And Rip and Tear getting it's healing brutalized was not desired, like atleast to me, having good self survivability feels incredibly thematic for Werewolf.

Yeah the nerf to Rip and Tear is a shame. I need to test it in the IA but I suspect it's gonna be rough.

Solo PvE werewolves matter too.

I also feel like the main issue wasn't with Rip and Tear being overpowered (i mean, maybe a little, but not this much) but the fact the other morph doesn't have enough going for it to be worth taking.

It's okay. Did you notice they used this as an excuse to say the morph with horrible passives options now 'increases execute scaling' smh.

*I'm simply done wasting my ~virtual~ breath debating the logical, I'm going low effort too, let's gooooo!

*edit: I in-fact did not go 'low effort apparently'... I tried though xD

YandereGirlfriend · April 27

huskandhunger wrote: »

Since we are making Werewolf Berserker bleed come down from the 4 seconds in PVE to the diminutive 1 second in PVP, could we simply replace this and find something more impactful for damage and thematic for a werewolf that is supposed to go on a rampage please? @ZOS_Kevin 1 second just seems not so noticeable at all I'm a afraid.

The recent nerfs really are missing the mark and I would suggest reverting them or coming up with alternative ideas and going back to the drawing board.

At this point I would rather have the werewolf kit on Live with the visuals and sound effects of the PTS.

This is a failure, werewolf players deserve better.

Pretty sure you're just theorycrafting out of pocket here.

Wait for the CMXs and actual data to come in before concluding that something is "dead".

Wuuffyy · April 28

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Pretty sure you're just theorycrafting out of pocket here.

Wait for the CMXs and actual data to come in before concluding that something is "dead".

Can you just not? Like actually just not? You got the equivalent of 'your word'. Haven't you wreaked enough damage with it? Why not use that effort and ~vocal~ prowess to also suggest ways to sidegrade werewolf power elsewhere that they can use it?

Listen to me, they took my berserker dot on live (where EVERYONE agrees werewolf is atrocious), nerfed its damage scaling by ~30% wep damage (and an amount for stam), made it 1 second in duration (a 75% percent nerf in duration), and then made it take a second to apply.

I want to say 'I feel like there isn't a reason to use berserker (the most iconic, bleed-centric, identifying version of werewolf) AT ALL in PvP anymore outside of a 1 v 1', where I can nearly-perfectly parse someone to death (and because sustain outside of a constant fight/with corspes is still RUFF)... BUT, I legitimately feel that if I say that I am REMOTELY serious, this team will simply find a reason to GUT Packleader there to somehow make it worse than berserker rather than undo ANY harm to the berserker itself.

It's going to REMAIN GOOD by whatever number you pull from thy cheek-a-lings in a duel because it STILL has access to SORC DAMAGE and SUSTAIN masteries that even SORC is overperforming with EVERYWHERE. I just HOPE this is somehow a 100 to 0, incredibly harsh gambit, where they are testing to see the impact of sorc masteries (because they nerfed Pyrebrand interaction with werewolf indirectly essentially so DK is no longer in the picture imo) and if they decide to 'flip them off' we can have some LOVE back elsewhere- but I'm sure I'm just being naive.

Wuuffyy · April 28

huskandhunger wrote: »

Since we are making Werewolf Berserker bleed come down from the 4 seconds in PVE to the diminutive 1 second in PVP, could we simply replace this and find something more impactful for damage and thematic for a werewolf that is supposed to go on a rampage please? @ZOS_Kevin 1 second just seems not so noticeable at all I'm a afraid.

The recent nerfs really are missing the mark and I would suggest reverting them or coming up with alternative ideas and going back to the drawing board.

At this point I would rather have the werewolf kit on Live with the visuals and sound effects of the PTS.

This is a failure, werewolf players deserve better.

No hold on, I just thought of something legitimately funny to me.

Imagine a giant dog-like creature with dagger-like claws cuts you, you ~bleed~ for a forkin' singular second, and then you're just good-to-go like it was some sort of minor papercut.