SUPRISE ! People dont like VENGEANCE

Taarente · April 25

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Greyhost is intended for end game players, everyone there participating should be "hardcore" by the definition of the rest of the community, same as vet trial pvers, and especially the hardcore mode enjoyers.

No one's telling them they're too sweaty and need to have their content lose focus for everyone else to enjoy their content on easier casual modes for the same rewards, or worse, more rewards than what they're doing despite it being harder.

I really, really loathe this focus on calling greyhost enjoyers who dont want vengeance "tryheard sweats". Lol that has a lot of mileage apparently and is a very, very varied and wide spectrum.

Thanks for calling me hardcore and a sweaty, which I’m neither of. I play grey host and focus on objectives (keeps, resources, scrolls) things that actually matter to the campaign. The body count means nothing to me. Anyway personally not a fan of vengeance. I get it, that there is so much complexity now(entirely zos’s fault) that it’s actually impossible to make grey host support hundreds of players. That said I invested time and energy into a build that suits my needs. I’d rather not throw it away. So if zos say big battles vengeance, full freedom grey host i’ll go grey host thanks. i’ve spent this week in vengeance to get some rewards i want and level a new character. Jobs done. so I’ve no one in standing in front of a zerg with vengeance boxing gloves, clown shoes and a twig and some toy town spells.

Rohamad_Ali · April 25

The pre made templates are hilariously bad. The skill bar is Limbo worthy.

BardokRedSnow · April 25

Taarente wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Greyhost is intended for end game players, everyone there participating should be "hardcore" by the definition of the rest of the community, same as vet trial pvers, and especially the hardcore mode enjoyers.

No one's telling them they're too sweaty and need to have their content lose focus for everyone else to enjoy their content on easier casual modes for the same rewards, or worse, more rewards than what they're doing despite it being harder.

I really, really loathe this focus on calling greyhost enjoyers who dont want vengeance "tryheard sweats". Lol that has a lot of mileage apparently and is a very, very varied and wide spectrum.

Thanks for calling me hardcore and a sweaty, which I’m neither of.

Don't get offended on me, I think you misinterpreted my post. I was saying by the standards of the person I was responding to, and the rest of the community that doesn't pvp, everyone in greyhost is. Thats how out of touch they are with what actually goes on in greyhost.

spartaxoxo · April 25

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

.d

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Greyhost is intended for end game players, everyone there participating should be "hardcore" by the definition of the rest of the community, same as vet trial pvers, and especially the hardcore mode enjoyers.

No one's telling them they're too sweaty and need to have their content lose focus for everyone else to enjoy their content on easier casual modes for the same rewards, or worse, more rewards than what they're doing despite it being harder.

I really, really loathe this focus on calling greyhost enjoyers who dont want vengeance "tryheard sweats". Lol that has a lot of mileage apparently and is a very, very varied and wide spectrum.

There are absolutely would be if vet trials players were constantly fighting tooth and nail to prevent a normal version of trials.

Furthermore, most PvP games don't force new and casual players to fight against top 500s. They have separate matchmaking for a reason. PvP as it stands now has needed different modes/maps so that there is actually choice for a long time now.

ravenwatch, below 50

Campaigns that were not balanced properly for that goal and allowed the use of OP sets. They were not dedicated game modes for that purpose. Vengeance is.

If you want a mode "for beginners", which is a mode to transition into end game, and get used to what pvp is like... those are what you need, not something so different from the game that all it teaches you is to press buttons, and how to follow a zerg.

No. They aren't. Those had the exact same problem as the regular version that's why it wasn't used. It was just a bunch of vets in OP set combos mowing down casuals and new players, no different for them than the main campaign except there was no CP to help mitigate the issue.

AliceIbanez · April 25

Well I like pvp and cyrodiil, but Vengeance is too zergy for me

BardokRedSnow · April 25

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

.d

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Greyhost is intended for end game players, everyone there participating should be "hardcore" by the definition of the rest of the community, same as vet trial pvers, and especially the hardcore mode enjoyers.

No one's telling them they're too sweaty and need to have their content lose focus for everyone else to enjoy their content on easier casual modes for the same rewards, or worse, more rewards than what they're doing despite it being harder.

I really, really loathe this focus on calling greyhost enjoyers who dont want vengeance "tryheard sweats". Lol that has a lot of mileage apparently and is a very, very varied and wide spectrum.

There are absolutely would be if vet trials players were constantly fighting tooth and nail to prevent a normal version of trials.

Furthermore, most PvP games don't force new and casual players to fight against top 500s. They have separate matchmaking for a reason. PvP as it stands now has needed different modes/maps so that there is actually choice for a long time now.

ravenwatch, below 50

Campaigns that were not balanced properly for that goal and allowed the use of OP sets. They were not dedicated game modes for that purpose. Vengeance is.

If you want a mode "for beginners", which is a mode to transition into end game, and get used to what pvp is like... those are what you need, not something so different from the game that all it teaches you is to press buttons, and how to follow a zerg.

No. They aren't. Those had the exact same problem as the regular version that's why it wasn't used. It was just a bunch of vets in OP set combos mowing down casuals and new players, no different for them than the main campaign except there was no CP to help mitigate the issue.

the same thing will happen to you in vengeance except it will be because you didnt log a toon into the most zergiest faction.

Instead of demanding a mode for people who cant do their research they could just look up any youtube build for pvp as a starter position and learn to at least not get one shot. These so called op sets are very easy to obtain, theyre either in guild vendors, craftable, or in cyrodiil vendors and rewards of the worthy.

It doesn't take people long to build up knowledge to play, its the same as you getting trials ready in pve, you gotta farm the sets and learn mechanics, progression.

You will do that far easier playing as a beginner in ravenwatch or BR, below 50 or better, in GH where many guilds will sweep you up and assist you often for free.

Vengeance will do absolutely nothing to help beginners prepare for normal cyrodiil, it will instead just be a bandaid for people who will never touch it and simply get whatever theyre looking to get out of it, tier 3 rewards, meaningless titles, etc.

spartaxoxo · April 25

Nah. Nobody should need to be an expert to start having fun. It should be fun instantly. Vengeance will offer that to newer and casual players.

No credible PvP game tells people they need to do extensive research before playing and neither should ZOS. This mode is long overdue.

There's a reason this game's PvP had dwindled down to unprofitable and unsustainable playerbase full of small tiny percentage of veterans. It frankly might already be too little too late but they're finally addressing long standing complaints in a way that offers players meaningful choices.

I'm not thrilled with the current balance of vengeance but they're taking steps in the right direction. I also look forward to the addition of the smaller version to cut down on horse riding simulator.

Thumbless_Bot · April 25

If 2 team bgs is any indication we will have to suffer through two years of vengeance with these forums filled with complaint threads about it before the reconsider bringing back real cyro if vengeance ever goes live.

BetweenMidgets · April 25

Vengeance is such a snooze fest.

Yes, there are a lot of bodies in one spot. I think it is very cool to see so many people in one spot, too. But the actual gameplay is beyond boring. Whoever has the most bodies will win. The only real PVP is sieging. If you over extend you get chained further away and light attacked down.

I guess this is what we should expect when tales of tribute is considered PVP.

BardokRedSnow · April 26

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Nah. Nobody should need to be an expert to start having fun. It should be fun instantly. Vengeance will offer that to newer and casual players.

No credible PvP game tells people they need to do extensive research before playing and neither should ZOS. This mode is long overdue.

There's a reason this game's PvP had dwindled down to unprofitable and unsustainable playerbase full of small tiny percentage of veterans. It frankly might already be too little too late but they're finally addressing long standing complaints in a way that offers players meaningful choices.

I'm not thrilled with the current balance of vengeance but they're taking steps in the right direction. I also look forward to the addition of the smaller version to cut down on horse riding simulator.

Firstly, every mmo imaginable requires you get gear and level up, learn builds etc to pvp with experienced end game players.

There isn't a single example that goes outside of this, in a successful model. Even again elden ring, which is way more competitive and skill based, requires sometimes you make full playthroughs to get the best gear to fight the sweatiest people. World of Warcraft is an even bigger learning curve and requires even more time invested to participate competitively there.

Secondly this isn't specifically a pvp game, this is again, an mmo. Getting gear, leveling skills etc is the bread and butter of the game, this isn't Halo, this isnt arc raiders, pub g etc, and in those cases you lose gear after you die in truly pvp centric games like that.

Finally, the only reason pvp lost players is because the Game lost players, mostly due to subclassing. After the DK refresh, GH was pushing covid day numbers in the last campaign and the score ended like this:

The reality isnt matching your narrative. By 5 on a weekday people were already locked out of the campaign and had to queue

Again if you were to go to hardcore trial groups and say hey i want your cool mounts and furnishings etc and I dont wanna have to grind for the gear required to perform well enough to earn my spot in the group to get them, you're gonna have a bad time, or be paying gold for the carry.

spartaxoxo · April 26

MMOs are a dying genre because all the good PvP games have skill based modes or matchmaking to ensure that people can learn without a thesis statement.

There was a surge of people coming in with the dk refresh but this game, like the genre, is not great for PvP because of the utter nonsense of not having different modes for different levels of skills and interest.

BardokRedSnow · April 26

spartaxoxo wrote: »

MMOs are a dying genre because all the good PvP games have skill based modes or matchmaking to ensure that people can learn without a thesis statement.

There was a surge of people coming in with the dk refresh but this game, like the genre, is not great for PvP because of the utter nonsense of not having different modes for different levels of skills and interest.

again this isnt a pvp game, maybe go play one of those, it is an mmo with pvp based around that concept. If Zos were intending on Vengeance to aid new players, they'd stick to bettering those game modes so new players actually can learn the ins and outs of the biggest and most popular cyrodiil variant.

Instead it serves as a way to give pvers something else to do with minimal effort on their part, and it shows.

spartaxoxo · April 26

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

MMOs are a dying genre because all the good PvP games have skill based modes or matchmaking to ensure that people can learn without a thesis statement.

There was a surge of people coming in with the dk refresh but this game, like the genre, is not great for PvP because of the utter nonsense of not having different modes for different levels of skills and interest.

again this isnt a pvp game, maybe go play one of those, it is an mmo with pvp based around that concept. If Zos were intending on Vengeance to aid new players, they'd stick to bettering those game modes so new players actually can learn the ins and outs of the biggest and most popular cyrodiil variant.

Instead it serves as a way to give pvers something else to do with minimal effort on their part, and it shows.

I do play PvP in other games. If MMOs don't want to die out as a genre, they need to innovate and adapt. Many people do not want to get beat by a spreadsheet before skill even enters the equation. It's fine to have those modes for the people that do want that element. Good even. Many of the people checking for MMOs are looking for that after all. But they also need different game modes for everyone else. Variety allows them to offer experiences for a bunch of different types of players. And many, many people who want to PvP aren't interested in that. They just want to jump into a fair fight.

Which is why other genres of games are far more popular for PvP gameplay.

SirGabenOfSteamia · April 26

Can't speak for anyone else obviously, but I've been enjoying vengeance. I'm not a big PVP player and normally it feels like I don't have the right gear or skills or champion perks to make a significant difference, with many players stomping over me and myself being unable to dent their health.

That being said, vengeance on PS is completely dead. Especially for AD, yesterday when I got on at 1PM there were 3 people on the leaderboard for the faction. It's insane. Like I've never seen cyro so insanely dead.

I guess I must genuinely be in the superminority.

BardokRedSnow · April 26

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

MMOs are a dying genre because all the good PvP games have skill based modes or matchmaking to ensure that people can learn without a thesis statement.

There was a surge of people coming in with the dk refresh but this game, like the genre, is not great for PvP because of the utter nonsense of not having different modes for different levels of skills and interest.

again this isnt a pvp game, maybe go play one of those, it is an mmo with pvp based around that concept. If Zos were intending on Vengeance to aid new players, they'd stick to bettering those game modes so new players actually can learn the ins and outs of the biggest and most popular cyrodiil variant.

Instead it serves as a way to give pvers something else to do with minimal effort on their part, and it shows.

I do play PvP in other games. If MMOs don't want to die out as a genre, they need to innovate and adapt. Many people do not want to get beat by a spreadsheet before skill even enters the equation. It's fine to have those modes for the people that do want that element. Good even. Many of the people checking for MMOs are looking for that after all. But they also need different game modes for everyone else. Variety allows them to offer experiences for a bunch of different types of players. And many, many people who want to PvP aren't interested in that. They just want to jump into a fair fight.

Which is why other genres of games are far more popular for PvP gameplay.

maybe before you start suggesting eso go the way of dead pvp games like marathon or overwatch, your winning example of Vengeance should try filling more than one faction first.

Vaqual · April 26

spartaxoxo wrote: »

MMOs are a dying genre because all the good PvP games have skill based modes or matchmaking to ensure that people can learn without a thesis statement.

There was a surge of people coming in with the dk refresh but this game, like the genre, is not great for PvP because of the utter nonsense of not having different modes for different levels of skills and interest.

Many modern PvP games are short-lived and overhyped. Those that are actually successful are successful because they had innovative/interesting concepts to offer. You see copycats failing left and right, dragging remarkable budgets with them into the abyss. If anything, I find having a universal character building system across modes is the single best feature this game has to offer. That is at the core of the Elder Scrolls experience: Play your guy the way you like. Try to tackle challenges your way. Make it work or come back prepared. Integrating this into the MMO space isn't failing design, that is the very essence of the Elder Scrolls Experience. There are obstacles and some boundaries when it comes to fair play. But the goal should be to preserve as much as possible of this experience. If the game feels unfair, make good arguments about what is unfair. The best version of ESO PvP can still be made. The neutered experience that is Vengeance just can't keep up with the wealth of customization options the regular game has to offer.

Trying to eliminate effort, preparation and persistence from the equation by offering a shallow PvP experience is neither playing to ESOs strengths nor generally recognized as successful concept.

SirAxen · April 26

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I didn't even realize there was vengeance with everything else going on. We'll know more when it becomes an actual permanent server and the PvP guild boycotts to stop that fizzle out, I guess. Right now I think it's mostly PvE and Casual PvPers that enjoy Vengeance and I'm not sure how many are even aware that it's out. I didn't see it in the announcements.

It's not a "boycott", we just don't want to play this garbage.

Imagine if your trials and dungeons got replaced with a pve template for damage dealer, healer and tank, no sets to gain or earn, just vanilla template slop where everyone's the same and the difficulty was set to normal.

Worse, the player counts are tripled in number.

Would you like that? That's essentially what is happening here. Ultra snoozefest casual mode not even entertaining to pvers longer than two days.

Suggesting that Cyrodiil PvP is in any way shape or form skill based is laughable.

BardokRedSnow · April 26

SirAxen wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I didn't even realize there was vengeance with everything else going on. We'll know more when it becomes an actual permanent server and the PvP guild boycotts to stop that fizzle out, I guess. Right now I think it's mostly PvE and Casual PvPers that enjoy Vengeance and I'm not sure how many are even aware that it's out. I didn't see it in the announcements.

It's not a "boycott", we just don't want to play this garbage.

Imagine if your trials and dungeons got replaced with a pve template for damage dealer, healer and tank, no sets to gain or earn, just vanilla template slop where everyone's the same and the difficulty was set to normal.

Worse, the player counts are tripled in number.

Would you like that? That's essentially what is happening here. Ultra snoozefest casual mode not even entertaining to pvers longer than two days.

Suggesting that Cyrodiil PvP is in any way shape or form skill based is laughable.

If it wasn't, the forum goers here who swear it isn't would just throw on some sets and prove how easy it is.

spartaxoxo · April 26

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

MMOs are a dying genre because all the good PvP games have skill based modes or matchmaking to ensure that people can learn without a thesis statement.

There was a surge of people coming in with the dk refresh but this game, like the genre, is not great for PvP because of the utter nonsense of not having different modes for different levels of skills and interest.

again this isnt a pvp game, maybe go play one of those, it is an mmo with pvp based around that concept. If Zos were intending on Vengeance to aid new players, they'd stick to bettering those game modes so new players actually can learn the ins and outs of the biggest and most popular cyrodiil variant.

Instead it serves as a way to give pvers something else to do with minimal effort on their part, and it shows.

I do play PvP in other games. If MMOs don't want to die out as a genre, they need to innovate and adapt. Many people do not want to get beat by a spreadsheet before skill even enters the equation. It's fine to have those modes for the people that do want that element. Good even. Many of the people checking for MMOs are looking for that after all. But they also need different game modes for everyone else. Variety allows them to offer experiences for a bunch of different types of players. And many, many people who want to PvP aren't interested in that. They just want to jump into a fair fight.

Which is why other genres of games are far more popular for PvP gameplay.

maybe before you start suggesting eso go the way of dead pvp games like marathon or overwatch, your winning example of Vengeance should try filling more than one faction first.

I never heard of marathon but it's funny you mention Overwatch as that is one I play. It is far from dead and is currently on a massively successful turnaround.

It did that by focusing on giving people more ways to play while never abandoning its core players. They added Stadium, which when it launched was massively successful but then cooled down to the third most popular mode. It is still however boasting a large playerbase and helped attract new people to the game. Big get. They added 5 new heroes, as well as map and hero bans in comp. So that people have more meaningful choices in how they engage with the game.

So now we have the anything goes Quickplay, the tightly controlled comp, and the totally different gameplay experience of Stadium as the most popular ways to play. Mystery heroes, arcade, workshop, and death match are all still popular enough to maintain their playerbase. But they are less popular than the big 3. Recently they also launched 5 new heroes.

A 10 year old game that just managed to see big player increases just by offering more variety while continuing to offer big content drops (this year gave us 5 new heroes at once, popular balance changes, new maps, etc) to the main people playing it already.

That's how any online game has to do things.

ZOS isn't messing up by introducing vengeance. It's messing up being light on content for the core content. Supposedly that's in favor of these class refreshes and crossplay. I hope they have something big cooking to drop at the same time as crossplay.

Because it's not giving players options that kill games. It is lack of content. That's what nearly killed Overwatch as they went light on content for a couple of years before OW2 dropped. That is what is killing ESO with it's true playerbase on an overall decrease trend when they announced they would no longer have content Q3 and Q4.

And when they were done OW2 wasn't a different enough experience to justify the light content. They have since recovered from that fumbled ball. I hope ESO does not make the same mistake and they got something big cooking in secret alongside crossplay.

Y'all shouldn't be blaming vengeance. It is good to give multiple layers of options for different types of players. You should be blaming the cancelled project Blackbird that put the studio so far behind on the kinds of QOL changes we should have been getting all along. A lot of the stuff happening now are things they should have done years ago. They have to play catch-up.

The new team is taking a pause to bring ESO up to modern standards. I hope in the end that ESO survives the content draught. It may already be too little too late but the success of the dk refresh brings hope.

ETA
People are blaming vengeance for the lack of content right now for the core game. But this has been going on for years. It's not the issue.

The issue is that for years ESO was not the priority for a lot of the talent at the studio. Blackbird was. Now Blackbird is gone, the studio is smaller, and the new leadership has to deal with years of buildup of missing game modes, visual changes, character balance, and quality of life. They have a Herculean task ahead of them and a smaller team to tackle it with. They seem to really care and are already off to fantastic start. They have already turned around communication.

Idk if ends up working but I wish them all the best.

Major_Mangle · April 26

Jammy420 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

The bars are not equal to Grey Host. 1 bar is like full bars grey host, so like, you are not really showing any useful data. On EU PC its almost always 2-full. Which is what, 3 times more than greyhost?

on ours on pcna during busy hours you will see 2 bars and yes thats anywhere from 600-under 900. Problem is, thats one faction. The others are anywhere from 300-600.

This would be just fine, except Vengeance is a numbers game, and yall have even less ways of dealing with a zerg than we do. Can't speak for EU but on NA what happens is you have 300-600 players on AD and DC sitting in keeps while EP has six scrolls and zergs the map, then the rest of the players either leave, or log in on EP toons, rinse repeat.

So technically yea Vengeance has more players than what GH allows. But its not active pvp. And its not greyhost players either for the most part. I know because my friends list is full of them, and on a friday evening I had under 10 people online, which is crazy.

Meanwhile with greyhost you get 360 active players, with over 2 hours of a queue for people. Not ideal, said queue, which is why Zos needs to get back to figuring out how to improve the server and raising that cap, rather than just making pvp waiting rooms essentially, we already have those.

As someone else said, PC EU is equal population across the board, around 2-3 bars at primetime, that is WAY above the normal gh server. Me thinks it is popular, and the gh sweaties are just big mad. And like someone else said, we have golden pursuits this week, so a lot of people are doing those. So even with those, the population is higher than gh. So like, yeah. The thing is, a lot of people do not wanna have to regrind for endless hours every few months to be able to play pvp. Sometimes people have to take a break, then we come back, and bam, we cant pvp anymore without the latest and greatest setups. That is extremely counterintuitive when it comes to pvp. PvP should be about PvP, not grinding.

Will be a bit off topic here,

The game has barely changed at all for the last 2-3 years in terms of gear. For me PvP became stale because nothing ever changed. Sure it was convenient to move the same 3-5 sets between each characters (exceptions existed ofc) but god was it stale. As much as it´s anecdotal experience from my end, the same goes for everyone that I used to play with. We all took a long break because of the fact that nothing changed.

Same thing can be said for PvE as well, where the game has been more or less the same ever since arcanist came out. Change is good in MMO´s because it forces you to explore new options, which is more often than not exciting and fun.

Roztlin45 · April 26

The Red Sky is one of the worst design fail I have ever witnessed here. That alone makes the area unplayable for many.

moderatelyfatman · April 26

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

The bars are not equal to Grey Host. 1 bar is like full bars grey host, so like, you are not really showing any useful data. On EU PC its almost always 2-full. Which is what, 3 times more than greyhost?

on ours on pcna during busy hours you will see 2 bars and yes thats anywhere from 600-under 900. Problem is, thats one faction. The others are anywhere from 300-600.

This would be just fine, except Vengeance is a numbers game, and yall have even less ways of dealing with a zerg than we do. Can't speak for EU but on NA what happens is you have 300-600 players on AD and DC sitting in keeps while EP has six scrolls and zergs the map, then the rest of the players either leave, or log in on EP toons, rinse repeat.

So technically yea Vengeance has more players than what GH allows. But its not active pvp. And its not greyhost players either for the most part. I know because my friends list is full of them, and on a friday evening I had under 10 people online, which is crazy.

Meanwhile with greyhost you get 360 active players, with over 2 hours of a queue for people. Not ideal, said queue, which is why Zos needs to get back to figuring out how to improve the server and raising that cap, rather than just making pvp waiting rooms essentially, we already have those.

As someone else said, PC EU is equal population across the board, around 2-3 bars at primetime, that is WAY above the normal gh server. Me thinks it is popular, and the gh sweaties are just big mad. And like someone else said, we have golden pursuits this week, so a lot of people are doing those. So even with those, the population is higher than gh. So like, yeah. The thing is, a lot of people do not wanna have to regrind for endless hours every few months to be able to play pvp. Sometimes people have to take a break, then we come back, and bam, we cant pvp anymore without the latest and greatest setups. That is extremely counterintuitive when it comes to pvp. PvP should be about PvP, not grinding.

Will be a bit off topic here,

The game has barely changed at all for the last 2-3 years in terms of gear. For me PvP became stale because nothing ever changed. Sure it was convenient to move the same 3-5 sets between each characters (exceptions existed ofc) but god was it stale. As much as it´s anecdotal experience from my end, the same goes for everyone that I used to play with. We all took a long break because of the fact that nothing changed.

Same thing can be said for PvE as well, where the game has been more or less the same ever since arcanist came out. Change is good in MMO´s because it forces you to explore new options, which is more often than not exciting and fun.

The game not changing isn't a bad thing: if all six classes had unique playstyles but performed within 5% of each other, I'd say to the devs to leave things as they are. The freshness will in players learning a new class and playstyle and taking that into endgame.

The problem (namely in PvE) is that the game has not been in a good place since patch 35. The devs took the game to its lowest point and then decided they weren't going to do major changes!

In the case of PvP, does the game of Chess need to radically change the rules every 2-3 years? Of course, the answer is no so why do people keep playing?

xylena · April 26

GH enjoyers might wanna look at the top PvP games according to Steam. ESO is #63 and that's obviously the whole game not just PvP, which struggles to hit 3 digits while competitors like Rivals or Overwatch sit steady at 100x that. They are naive to just how small GH PvP is.

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

In the case of PvP, does the game of Chess need to radically change the rules every 2-3 years? Of course, the answer is no so why do people keep playing?

Because in chess you need to actually outplay your opponent, not just outbuild them on the stat sheet before the game even starts.

BardokRedSnow · April 26

Greyhost does not at all struggle to hit a mere 100 players but you would not know that since you don’t log in even to play Vengeance

And this is an mmo not a hero shooter like Overwatch and even if Overwatch isn’t dead anymore lol, Vengeance isn’t even close to being that and it never will be. Nor do I want it to be, if Zos wants to see a big resurgence they need to update their dinosaur tech again for the servers and make ballgroups suffer even more. They’re the source of the lag not zergs.

spartaxoxo · April 26

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Greyhost does not at all struggle to hit a mere 100 players but you would not know that since you don’t log in even to play Vengeance

And this is an mmo not a hero shooter like Overwatch and even if Overwatch isn’t dead anymore lol, Vengeance isn’t even close to being that and it never will be. Nor do I want it to be, if Zos wants to see a big resurgence they need to update their dinosaur tech again for the servers and make ballgroups suffer even more. They’re the source of the lag not zergs.

I mean, you're the one that brought up Overwatch. And it was just a funny example because they just turned their game around the same way ESO is attempting to do it, but as appropriate for their genre. But the difference is they updated and put out core content at the same. And ESO only does one or the other and that's been the true issue the whole time.

How lackluster is the server upgrades? How many years have people complained they wanted a mode away from OP set combos? How many years have PvPers begged for something to be done about ball groups and healing? How many years did we ask for Overland difficulty options? How many years has it been since console asked for the basic UI options that PC has? How many years have players asked for class balance to be addressed?

It's nice that they're finally giving us so many of these things (and they still haven't addressed a lot of it). But this should have been happening the entire time. They have years of backed up complaints to sort through.

If regular Cyrodiil hadn't been neglected for years, I don't think Vengeance would be nearly as controversial. Like it's legit just a different game mode that a lot of casuals have asked for for years. That shouldn't be a problem. And it wouldn't be in other games. But in this game because we have to pick and choose, players treat new stuff as a zero sum game. So we get people hating PvP options. Asking for events to stop being added. Ripping people's head off for the merely asking if they could make improvements to fishing.

It's put the game at a bad spot and made the playerbase skeptical of stuff that would be easy wins in any other game.

This game doesn't and hasn't ever giving us all the things when other games on the market do. That's the core issue. And idk if they can still solve it.

BardokRedSnow · April 26

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Greyhost does not at all struggle to hit a mere 100 players but you would not know that since you don’t log in even to play Vengeance

And this is an mmo not a hero shooter like Overwatch and even if Overwatch isn’t dead anymore lol, Vengeance isn’t even close to being that and it never will be. Nor do I want it to be, if Zos wants to see a big resurgence they need to update their dinosaur tech again for the servers and make ballgroups suffer even more. They’re the source of the lag not zergs.

I mean, you're the one that brought up Overwatch. And it was just a funny example because they just turned their game around the same way ESO is attempting to do it, but as appropriate for their genre.

You’re right, I agree. Vengeance is not appropriate for this genre.

xylena · April 26

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Greyhost does not at all struggle to hit a mere 100 players

It struggles to hit 100 per faction during NA prime time.

It struggles to hit 100 on the whole server outside of that.

BardokRedSnow · April 26

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Greyhost does not at all struggle to hit a mere 100 players

It struggles to hit 100 per faction during NA prime time.

It struggles to hit 100 on the whole server outside of that.

Again, this is not true lol not even close. I would again advise you try logging in when Greyhost returns to see how off base you are with these comments of yours, it’s getting beyond ridiculous.

spartaxoxo · April 26

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Greyhost does not at all struggle to hit a mere 100 players but you would not know that since you don’t log in even to play Vengeance

And this is an mmo not a hero shooter like Overwatch and even if Overwatch isn’t dead anymore lol, Vengeance isn’t even close to being that and it never will be. Nor do I want it to be, if Zos wants to see a big resurgence they need to update their dinosaur tech again for the servers and make ballgroups suffer even more. They’re the source of the lag not zergs.

I mean, you're the one that brought up Overwatch. And it was just a funny example because they just turned their game around the same way ESO is attempting to do it, but as appropriate for their genre.

You’re right, I agree. Vengeance is not appropriate for this genre.

That's not remotely what I said.

Dracosin369 · April 26

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Greyhost does not at all struggle to hit a mere 100 players

It struggles to hit 100 per faction during NA prime time.

It struggles to hit 100 on the whole server outside of that.

Again, this is not true lol not even close. I would again advise you try logging in when Greyhost returns to see how off base you are with these comments of yours, it’s getting beyond ridiculous.

Anyway you look at it, the GH community is like 0.000001% of ESO. I like eso pvp, its the only thing I do in ESO anymore. But the numbers whether its 100 during the day or 1000 at primetime is tiny...tiny. The fact the devs are doing anything is a miracle.