Arunei wrote: »

I feel the question about what accceptable DPS

Ask 100 players, get 100 answers. Devs gotta figure that one out. If the game feels balanced across playstyles and skill levels, doesn't matter what numbers they slap on it.

To me, Sorc, DK, and WW feel relatively balanced with each other. The numbers look much bigger than what people are used to, but the devs are still reworking the entire game.

Carrying over some info from PTS- werewolf feedback thread (TLDR, in defense of providing proper proof/evidence beyond dueling parse/video showing no info on opponent outside of visible procs like Relequen for actual feedback/input).

---

React wrote: »

Is it intended that class mastery passives work while transformed?

There are currently werewolves on the PTS who are doing upwards of 10k PVP DPS by taking advantage of certain class mastery passives while in werewolf form. To be clear - they're currently pushing almost double the highest PVP DPS that the top PVP builds were capable of pushing before, while using only one bar worth of abilities. That is a number nothing has achieved in PVP before, not even the recently reworked DK.

Seems a little insane to me.

This was the first 'nerf werewolf' comment (that I saw, skimming) that came in and happened to include no information. Later came a CMX with no information on person skills/gear/playstyle and opponent skills/gear/playstyle. Beyond this, and MUCH later, after multiple 'please for proof' requests- came the more-or-less-the-same-style (no real evidence) dueling anyone and everyone in PTS Riften video with once again limited or no information i.e. not real, controlled tests for validity or feedback reasons.

The second point, the 'currently pushing almost double the highest PvP DPS' was pretty quickly disproven by their own 'side' (just repeats on that thread currently so you can find this evidence there):

(which of course you can understand this is mathematically impossible as a parsing build would have your highest sustained DPS possible and with-some-common sense the werewolf PvP 'parse' would be still less than or similar to reworked DK with PTS Pyrebrand... even before introduction of any other 'potential specs' that are comparable or better)

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

I would maybe consider Conservation of Energy busted. The interaction with BfB is silly.

It is broken, but without it Sorc gets dumpstered by DKs and Wardens who are doing 7-8k sustained DPS. I'd say keep Conservation and buff the less ideal passives (NBs, Templars, etc).

We are now at a point of no return. DKs had their moments and will continue to have their moments. Let the other classes be brought up.

Which seemed to lead (or was led by; i.e. same-concept) to conversation about how Relequen in a duel+ a select few interactions with class mastery on werewolf are potentially overtuned (sorcerer; which is also VERY strong on sorc whether/whether not that is intentional):

Decimus wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Serophous wrote: »

Can we move on from this talk of balancing around dueling and move on to different feedback? This thread feels completely hijacked at this point around one specific discussion.

Has anyone been trying any Combat Metrics to even see where werewolves line up with other setups? Can they actually deal damage to bring to trials?

There are 160k+ parses floating around w/ Signet and Sorc.

I'll just drop this here:
https://youtu.be/a1qiAMlAO-E?si=Dl4pOa_mCssK9HtX


Werewolf might not be the problem people think it is...

///

Replying to a later point>>>

Wup_sa wrote: »

Saying that WW has "solid" healing is an uderstatement. I heal around 10k from a smammable that is basically free to use.

In the current form WW is absolutely too strong on any class, sorc is just the strongest. You can still do well above 6k dps on any class and its just an ult, not even a separate class.

Atm WW can kill anything with the right build, but no class can kill WW if they have even one working braincell. Burst heal heals above 20 crits, 100% uptime on armor pots and overall making every ability cost nothing means the WW has unlimited recources.

WW is just extremely unhealthy in the current state and even returning old WW sustain would make it a lot more balanced and healthy for pvp.

Werewolf doesn't have vigor and this healing requires active damage dealing while in melee range. Additionally, werewolf is 'confined' to this healing (i.e. it's not as possible to stack with other ability healing/shield sources/more controlled). Not saying this is right or wrong, just putting this out there.

WW may be strong in 1v1s (especially to non-reworked specs) but that is not the only capacity they exist in (and once again not what we balance anything for/against). This is their 'perfect environment' and b/w the sustain mechanics, fury, high ST focus this is where you'll see them at their strongest.

Anyways, here are more quotes with proof that top-end DPS (your highest DPS) parses posted on dummies are not greater than that of beam builds or even that sorc build with 'class mastery' on PTS right now (not even close):

(for ref your standard 'beam' build is around 150k PvE and is ranged. Sorc currently maxing at ~220k on PTS; werewolf is not 'overperforming' on metrics for provable, sustained DPS here + lacks burst spikes as well unlike bow/whip/beetles/etc.)

100k werewolf parse-

120k parse

Testimony- 140k


*I intend to edit this throughout the day to refine and provide as many relevant points as possible. A bit busy now so may take a while

Arunei wrote: »

I ask more or less because if 6k sustained DPS is still considered too high

It's not. We've been able to do that for years.

Arunei wrote: »

I ask more or less because if 6k sustained DPS is still considered too high, then what would people claiming WW is too strong consider as 'normal' or 'acceptable' damage before they feel WW isn't OP anymore? It went from 10k is too strong to 6k also still being too strong.

xylena wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

I ask more or less because if 6k sustained DPS is still considered too high

It's not. We've been able to do that for years.

6k DPS is the high end of what is possible on the live server. This is achieved by builds using things like rele or pyreband, by players who are very good and maintaining their weaving and not wasting any GCDS, keeping all their buffs and debuffs up as close to perfect as possible, etc. These setups are typically paper-thin as well, and usually only function well within 1v1s. This is not some easy number to hit that is common to see. It is also not something that you can typically survive without specifically building to do so - slotting purges or additional heal over times, running super high mitigation, sets like wyrd/maras, etc.

I could accept 6k dps as being the high end of what a werewolf is capable of, assuming they're running a full damage setup like what we showed in all of the testing footage & cmx's within the other thread. Even though these WWs have 40k HP and are doing obscene healing from the multiple health scaling heals while remaining fully offensive, 6k DPS would still be acceptable to me since it'd be manageable if you played extremely well, and you'd be able to burst them back with the relatively low resistances they have.

But we are not just looking at 6k dps. Pelican demonstrated as high as 12.8k DPS in his video, with a variety of different sets including relequen, savage werewolf, deadlands demolisher, etc. Often sustaining between 8-10k DPS against very skilled players who built specifically to try to survive his setup. He's since reached 14k DPS in one duel. The number is continuing to escalate as more setups are tested and people gain familiarity with the mechanics. When someone is doing that much damage to you, if you stop blocking/healing/kiting for just 1-2 seconds, you instantly die. There is no surviving it, there is no outplaying it.

People keep saying that somehow we are still lacking context, and at this point I just don't have the patience to continue arguing. Check my comment history if you care to, there is multiple CMX posts straight from pelican himself, one or more of which include his list of buffs that shows his sets and the breakdown of his damage. Between those posts and the 18 minute long video consisting of 5-20 second long duel clips versus a variety of different builds/classes/skill level players, I think there is more than enough to demonstrate exactly why we're suggesting why it may be good to dial things back just a bit.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Is it intended that class mastery passives work while transformed?

There are currently werewolves on the PTS who are doing upwards of 10k PVP DPS by taking advantage of certain class mastery passives while in werewolf form. To be clear - they're currently pushing almost double the highest PVP DPS that the top PVP builds were capable of pushing before, while using only one bar worth of abilities. That is a number nothing has achieved in PVP before, not even the recently reworked DK.

Seems a little insane to me.

This was the first 'nerf werewolf' comment (that I saw, skimming) that came in and happened to include no information. Later came a CMX with no information on person skills/gear/playstyle and opponent skills/gear/playstyle. Beyond this, and MUCH later, after multiple 'please for proof' requests- came the more-or-less-the-same-style (no real evidence) dueling anyone and everyone in PTS Riften video with once again limited or no information.

This was my comment, and was genuinely just a question that caused a dozen people to completely spiral over something they themselves had not tested whatsoever. Ironically, it seems several of those parties have since shifted their stance to "well it seems class mastery passives are the real core of the issue".

At this point though, I don't really know what would qualify as "real evidence" to you. What was provided was probably 10+ hours of PTS duels across a variety of setups which included an on screen DPS meter, broken down into an 18 minute video, and multiple CMX pages showing the damage breakdowns as well as one with pelican's buffs visible - showing exactly the gear that he'd been using and his class mastery passives.

Meanwhile this whole time, all I've seen in return are constant remarks of "this doesn't suffice" and "this lacks context" from people who haven't provided a single thing of substance to substantiate their own claims.

I'm not going to continue arguing about this. I think there is more than enough for objective parties to sort through and decide for themselves what would be the correct path moving forward. Hopefully we'll hear from the team in advance of whatever they're planning to do/not do in the coming weeks, so a healthier conversation can be had there.

React wrote: »

He's since reached 14k DPS in one duel. The number is continuing to escalate as more setups are tested and people gain familiarity with the mechanics.

What within the WW kit do you think is causing this?

aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo

The amount of evidence doesn't matter if it isn't the right evidence. A 3hr video of the same information wouldn't prove any more than what we have seen already in an 18 minute video.

The test needs to be controlled. The same enemy player, geared the same way. Then show what the differences are when things are changed.

@React
Because the information we're asking for isn't being provided. We're asking for CMX and vidoes of WW ON OTHER CLASSES or AT LEAST without Conservation of Energy for healing and Static Reverberation for the massive damage once it starts procing. You and other people keep saying that you're "seeing" these things yet even though it's been asked for for days, none of that proof is finding it's way here. To people who have been asked over and over.

And you just keep defaulting back to top end PvPers as what all of something should be based around. Balancing should NEVER be based around what the top 1% of players can achieve. I've already stated that numerous times, but these people who are super ultra great at the game are the ones you want to refer to as proof that something is OP. If you gave these high-end PvPers mid or even sucky gear, they'd probably STILL be able to crank out better numbers than your average PvPer.

You can't look at what the average person might be hitting and go "oh but THOSE numbers don't matter when this handful of like 20 people (number is just an example) can do a lot more". hoangdz's screen doing 6k without Trial Gear and without those Sorc Passives is way closer to what your average person will probably be running. It'll probably be even less honestly.

But we need more proof than just this one screen, this might have been a fluke. Because maybe WW really IS overperforming, or maybe it's only OP in the hands of people who are at the top of the PvP game. As for people like me not providing evidence, we aren't the ones making claims. If someone makes claims the onus is on THEM to provide proof. Besides, I don't PvP and hoangdz has already basically said if a person doesn't PvP they don't get to have a say in this whole thing.

But let me ask something. I'm horrible at PvP, all forms of it. If I were to try to provide any of my own evidence about whether or not WW is OP on anything than specific builds (my WW is a NB Khajiit using Pillar of Nirn, Deadly Strike, and Oakensoul), would that information be disregarded because it's from someone who doesn't PvP? Would the argument go "well you're not very good at PvP so of course your damage will be low" if it turns out to be butt? The onus isn't on those of us asking, but if any provided evidence will be accepted then I can try to find someone capable of doing recordings and do some fights. PC NA if anyone in here is down.

At the end of the day, none of us asking for proof are trying to keep WW OP. We're just asking for simple proof that what was claimed to be overperforming actually is, and based on that screen that hoangdz posted...I'm willing to bet the average player won't be pulling super high numbers.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

I ask more or less because if 6k sustained DPS is still considered too high, then what would people claiming WW is too strong consider as 'normal' or 'acceptable' damage before they feel WW isn't OP anymore? It went from 10k is too strong to 6k also still being too strong.

xylena wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

I ask more or less because if 6k sustained DPS is still considered too high

It's not. We've been able to do that for years.

6k DPS is the high end of what is possible on the live server. This is achieved by builds using things like rele or pyreband, by players who are very good and maintaining their weaving and not wasting any GCDS, keeping all their buffs and debuffs up as close to perfect as possible, etc. These setups are typically paper-thin as well, and usually only function well within 1v1s. This is not some easy number to hit that is common to see. It is also not something that you can typically survive without specifically building to do so - slotting purges or additional heal over times, running super high mitigation, sets like wyrd/maras, etc.

I could accept 6k dps as being the high end of what a werewolf is capable of, assuming they're running a full damage setup like what we showed in all of the testing footage & cmx's within the other thread. Even though these WWs have 40k HP and are doing obscene healing from the multiple health scaling heals while remaining fully offensive, 6k DPS would still be acceptable to me since it'd be manageable if you played extremely well, and you'd be able to burst them back with the relatively low resistances they have.

But we are not just looking at 6k dps. Pelican demonstrated as high as 12.8k DPS in his video, with a variety of different sets including relequen, savage werewolf, deadlands demolisher, etc. Often sustaining between 8-10k DPS against very skilled players who built specifically to try to survive his setup. He's since reached 14k DPS in one duel. The number is continuing to escalate as more setups are tested and people gain familiarity with the mechanics. When someone is doing that much damage to you, if you stop blocking/healing/kiting for just 1-2 seconds, you instantly die. There is no surviving it, there is no outplaying it.

People keep saying that somehow we are still lacking context, and at this point I just don't have the patience to continue arguing. Check my comment history if you care to, there is multiple CMX posts straight from pelican himself, one or more of which include his list of buffs that shows his sets and the breakdown of his damage. Between those posts and the 18 minute long video consisting of 5-20 second long duel clips versus a variety of different builds/classes/skill level players, I think there is more than enough to demonstrate exactly why we're suggesting why it may be good to dial things back just a bit.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Is it intended that class mastery passives work while transformed?

There are currently werewolves on the PTS who are doing upwards of 10k PVP DPS by taking advantage of certain class mastery passives while in werewolf form. To be clear - they're currently pushing almost double the highest PVP DPS that the top PVP builds were capable of pushing before, while using only one bar worth of abilities. That is a number nothing has achieved in PVP before, not even the recently reworked DK.

Seems a little insane to me.

This was the first 'nerf werewolf' comment (that I saw, skimming) that came in and happened to include no information. Later came a CMX with no information on person skills/gear/playstyle and opponent skills/gear/playstyle. Beyond this, and MUCH later, after multiple 'please for proof' requests- came the more-or-less-the-same-style (no real evidence) dueling anyone and everyone in PTS Riften video with once again limited or no information.

This was my comment, and was genuinely just a question that caused a dozen people to completely spiral over something they themselves had not tested whatsoever. Ironically, it seems several of those parties have since shifted their stance to "well it seems class mastery passives are the real core of the issue".

At this point though, I don't really know what would qualify as "real evidence" to you. What was provided was probably 10+ hours of PTS duels across a variety of setups which included an on screen DPS meter, broken down into an 18 minute video, and multiple CMX pages showing the damage breakdowns as well as one with pelican's buffs visible - showing exactly the gear that he'd been using and his class mastery passives.

Meanwhile this whole time, all I've seen in return are constant remarks of "this doesn't suffice" and "this lacks context" from people who haven't provided a single thing of substance to substantiate their own claims.

I'm not going to continue arguing about this. I think there is more than enough for objective parties to sort through and decide for themselves what would be the correct path moving forward. Hopefully we'll hear from the team in advance of whatever they're planning to do/not do in the coming weeks, so a healthier conversation can be had there.

Context for real evidence is pretty logical though was stated multiple times (the request was made without discrepancy on multiple occasions through 'the thread', proof in this next spoiler)

Wuuffyy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

A one-bar build should not be doubling-up the sweatiest min-maxed dueling builds. Nothing should be. That degree of overperformance is completely outlandish, it doesn't matter what spec it is.

Sorry, but it is the inconvenient truth.

Also, if you think that React is simply AFK'ing in a Beam and waiting to die... I don't know what to tell you.

This is off topic but can tell it's only the 2 of you posting in this way and you certainly have an Agenda. Is React's nickname 'Yandere' by chance?

On a more serious note, can you provide a video w/ side-by-side demonstrating in-line meta DK and viable werewolf damage build to reflect how these are translating to damage on a player that is both moving to avoid damage and stunning+applying pressure (determining numbers plus counterplay via video) while ensuring that both builds and skill choices are demonstrated without edits/cuts?

Again, the parses aren't anything overglaring and that is your max dps scenario. Werewolf is one bar and this rework was suppose to make it competitive with both subclassing and the class reworks that are and will be very potent in power.

~I'm somewhat reluctant they kept it 1 bar as I knew any power increase would inevitably come with these types of comments (think one-bar PvE pet sorc back in the day and Wolfhunter werewolf also) so I don't completely fault you for having this line of thinking~

As far as I could tell, outside of the 'pack leader' morph which will rid most of your damage increases (you lose major berserk and most importantly the berserker bleed dot which is where the vast majority of your described potential damage would come from via non-claws morph)...

...werewolf healing across the board hasn't come to match your standard soul scribe-able+ vigor output (referring to sustain/viability here) and running all damage should make you even squishier than live therefore I find that what you are describing is nothing more than your standard nuke build in melee range much like a NB with 2-3 burst procs is doing now on live if fully valid (squishy, high damage, susceptible to actual combat).

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

A one-bar build should not be doubling-up the sweatiest min-maxed dueling builds. Nothing should be. That degree of overperformance is completely outlandish, it doesn't matter what spec it is.

Sorry, but it is the inconvenient truth.

Also, if you think that React is simply AFK'ing in a Beam and waiting to die... I don't know what to tell you.

This is off topic by I can tell it's only the 2 of you posting in this way and you certainly have an Agenda. Is React's nickname 'Yandere' by chance?

Why immediately devolve into baiting? Is that necessary?

Here are some screenshots of the dps in question. Keep in mind when you look at these the 33% weapon damage modifier isn't working at all, so this 10k+ dps is being achieved while missing upwards of 1,000 weapon damage.. Wonder how high it'll go once that is fixed.

The majority of your damage here is coming from Relequen. This is both telling and furthers my point that this appears to be nothing more than a nuke/damage build. Also, thought I'd simply make a fun jab (referencing above) at the fact your are both in here at the same time, doing the same thing, and upvoting each other's posts (which you are free to do, it's a feedback thread after all).

If the screenshot is meant to be proof I don't believe anything outside of a video is really going to drive your point home. So many concepts I cannot see from your screenshot.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I can sympathize with the PvE WW defenders in this thread. As they don't want their class to get pre-emptively dumpstered. We've all been there.

But they also don't know what these numbers mean in context or how ridonkulous they are in comparison to... basically anything that's ever existed. This is like the PvP equivalent of casually pulling 300k DPS at a time when others are still struggling to crack 200k.

I am not a sweaty duelist but I have a great deal of respect for the judgement as well as the findings of those few that are. Folk like React and Alchemiste have domain mastery that anyone in this thread really should pay attention to. Especially if you do not actually PvP yourself. The above screen-caps speak for themselves. That isn't "a little overperforming". It is in a completely different "stratosphere".

I'm all for balance. I don't want this to be a reality and come to light and they nerf x, y, z haphazardly later down the line like they did with wolfhunter (and leave it there).

With that being said, b/c the actual parses I've seen (dummy), the tooltips and additions in-game, and your lack of a video demonstration backing your claim (DK does 5k, werewolf does 10k is your claim, both viable against a moving enemy without extreme scenarios (?) i.e. one off procs/gimmics/ etc. which you'd find reminiscent of a 'duel' or 'nuke/glass cannon build')-

I'm simply not seeing substantive evidence provided by your 'party' (using term loosely of course) that this is inherently more of a problem than reworked DK/subclassing/ and relevant reworks down the road.

Anyways, and in the spirit of keeping the feedback thread feedback-full (and less debate), if you want to provide that evidence then I am happy to oblige in watching and providing my own input there even if it appears blantantly overturned (again, moreso than new DK or subclassing).

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm pulling 45k on the 6m dummy to try on my end to translate proof (or lack there of) for overbearing damage running full damage sets slated for PvP (i.e. not a dueling set like rele) with the standard tri-glyphs and mag recovery for werewolf heal (PTS is dead rn I cannot find anyone to duel)



~build~

I have on fully golded monomyth, Yandir's might (just heavy attack once every 15 seconds for 680 BUFFABLE wep/spell), Aerie's cry (literally a damage proc set that gives me more damage than essence thief; 'free' minor toughness from skill line), 1 pc magma, 1 pc monomyth (it's bugged if you die in wolf so this was from a fresh transformation) , flame/poison glyphs with nirnhoned + sharpened, and Orzorga's for food.

Disclaimer: I know there is still more of a focus on having stam recovery on this build which I could certainly reduce to have more straight stats with sustain changes (this would NOT net me MORE than 3k additional on this parse I consider this inconsequential for the message I am trying to relay.







~parse method (skills roto)

focused on keeping any and every skill and buff up only when needed (refresh at last second) while making sure to use spammable ANY opportunity I have the chance outside of those parameters.

///

For reference, I believe a meta PvE DPS is 60-70k+... which means a build like that would do MORE sustained damage in PvP than wolf since the claim is 'this is the highest you've ever seen'.

So the only complaint you must have here is that this 45k is being done on one bar... and I don't know what you're really wanting here as this is the dev's choice and it desperately needed this rework (and I'm going to be real in saying that... it took 5-10 years to get this). If they nerf numbers into oblivion for PTS alone, especially based on testimony, it will most likely never compete with subclassing and the ilk, and never be viable again).

*another disclaimer, 'burden of proof' is not on me (i.e. video to demonstrate my claim) since 100k parse with meta sets exists in same form (100k being good but only being up to 75% of top-end dps with beam, etc.) : )

Respectfully, this setup is awful. You're on the wrong class, you're using sustain when you can legitimately build zero regen and use double armor potions with 35k+ HP and stamina on the correct class, and you're hitting a PVE dummy to try and prove that the PVP parses I shared are somehow irrelevant.

I'm not trying to see WW nerfed in PVE in any case. It definitely did need a rework as it was sort of "dead content" in both areas of the game, outside of roleplay/fantasy for people who enjoy that sort of thing. I don't mind seeing the damage, mechanical, and utility buffs it received.

I do have an issue when a build with half the mechanical complexity of a meta PVP build is outputting double the damage, though. Especially when that damage has nearly no counterplay other than "run maras/cleansing revival/wyrd tree".

My original question was just that; a question. Are class mastery passives supposed to be working in WW form? If this is intended, then there might need to be some adjustments based on the numbers we're seeing on the PTS. Things like adding "against monsters" stipulations to certain skills, much like they did with the reworked DK.

I'm running warden (for minor tough proc and now-overtuned set for PvP which is similar damage wise to combining unfathomable darkness and essence thief in 1 set), sorc (stormcalling for passives), and burning light (templar skill line for passive).

The sets are high-end damage which is amazing for sustained damage (do you not know a lot about the game to be able to identify how these things work; to see how bloated the sets are???), and your parses are running Relequen (hate to break it to you but GL hitting half of those stacks without killing someone on a full damage build) without a video or comparison of how this differs from my input there via the same regarding pure class DK or the burst that subclassing provides.

You keep saying that it 'doubles' over everything but then everything I'm showing you is parsing less than your standard beamcanist build on dummy with its beam-equivalent 'claws' morph (I keep citing this because this is the HIGHEST DPS you can achieve on werewolf unless they REALLY scuffed numbers for the standard spammable outside of execute... they did not btw as people are saying they have less DPS casting the standard spammable during a roto instead of just everything else + 'claws')?

I just need you to make it make sense is all, you aren't doing that regardless of what you just said. Actually, not even 'I'- you NEED to make it make sense otherwise you're throwing a parse with Relequen on it and attempting to use your status and tenure to strongarm your point.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Yarcanine wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm running warden (for minor tough proc and now-overtuned set for PvP which is similar damage wise to combining unfathomable darkness and essence thief in 1 set), sorc (stormcalling for passives), and burning light (templar skill line for passive).

Ah, so you aren't even utilizing the class mastery passives which are the entirety of what I was asking about in this thread, and what are responsible for the problematic DPS I am referencing.

Got it.

Nothing, and I mean nothing in there is giving such a blatant increase to werewolf that it isn't giving to certain pure classes.

The MOST problematic line (I Imagine) would be sorc and you could SIMPLY disable the offending damage passives (on werewolf) for THAT PARTICULAR class mastery line until the values are most-likely brought down during its rework... Even then we're talking about losing passives like BURNING LIGHT in that scenario and slapping on 1-2 defensive/pseudo-defensive skill lines to access what should be, at that point, should make those passives rather marginal.

Again, I have seen no evidence outside of your very biased Relequen parse detailing little to nothing about what is happening and the variables in your test (I, once again, am asking your for video proof... I may be exaggerating but I have asked for this very simple item to back up your claim upwards of 5-10 times now... you have the 'burden of proof' here and that screenshot missing heaps of context isn't it).

40k HP WW doing 10k dps without relequen over a 1.5 minute normal duel to a 34k phys/spell resist rallying cry player, who is using a disgusting amount of hots and defensive stuff to survive.

Missing 33% weapon damage from the passive assuming the bug reports about it are correct.

He was accidently not wearing one of his 5 piece sets here. This is 3x tfs, 2x rele, 5x savage.




Here's 10k dps to that same player sustained over 2 minutes 40 seconds, when he was actually wearing his 5p tfs.

No ability in that recap looks egregiously over tuned. Just seems like WW combined with Sorc Mastery Passives has so much incoming healing and sustain that they can be 100% offensive the entire duel so the opponent just ends up being a parse dummy. In any scenario where the werewolf is pressured and has to play defensively the damage would fall off a cliff very fast

I mean, was this even a duel? There's no way a player could sustain taking 10k+ while attacking (think being on frontbar v.s. staying on backbar and just healing without attacking and/or stunning).

Like the most egregious think I see is the light attack damage (they uncapped it for werewolf however that translates) but not only is weaving considered 'skillful' but is the number that far removed from a standard damage spec (?).

React, I respect that you're passionate about advocating for this, I just wish there was more here to provide input. You clearly believe there's a problem and by extension I believe that I'd like to see this demonstrated to me in a meaningful way ASAP so I can add my own feedback on how I think it should be 'fixed' BEFORE we slap an 'on monsters' tag or worst-case bar werewolf from class passives entirely, if so.

Again, metrics on parses aren't showing this but just b/c something looks good or bad on paper doesn't mean it translates the same in actual combat of course.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm running warden (for minor tough proc and now-overtuned set for PvP which is similar damage wise to combining unfathomable darkness and essence thief in 1 set), sorc (stormcalling for passives), and burning light (templar skill line for passive).

Ah, so you aren't even utilizing the class mastery passives which are the entirety of what I was asking about in this thread, and what are responsible for the problematic DPS I am referencing.

Got it.

Nothing, and I mean nothing in there is giving such a blatant increase to werewolf that it isn't giving to certain pure classes.

The MOST problematic line (I Imagine) would be sorc and you could SIMPLY disable the offending damage passives (on werewolf) for THAT PARTICULAR class mastery line until the values are most-likely brought down during its rework... Even then we're talking about losing passives like BURNING LIGHT in that scenario and slapping on 1-2 defensive/pseudo-defensive skill lines to access what should be, at that point, should make those passives rather marginal.

Again, I have seen no evidence outside of your very biased Relequen parse detailing little to nothing about what is happening and the variables in your test (I, once again, am asking your for video proof... I may be exaggerating but I have asked for this very simple item to back up your claim upwards of 5-10 times now... you have the 'burden of proof' here and that screenshot missing heaps of context isn't it).

40k HP WW doing 10k dps without relequen over a 1.5 minute normal duel to a 34k phys/spell resist rallying cry player, who is using a disgusting amount of hots and defensive stuff to survive.

Missing 33% weapon damage from the passive assuming the bug reports about it are correct.

He was accidently not wearing one of his 5 piece sets here. This is 3x tfs, 2x rele, 5x savage.




Here's 10k dps to that same player sustained over 2 minutes 40 seconds, when he was actually wearing his 5p tfs.

Until you can provide a video instead of screenshot which is organically removing half of what you're running and all of what you're opponent is running and doing gameplay-wise (you have not shown this OR the other spec you are claiming werewolf now 'doubles'), then I am not inclined to put full stock in this and neither should other players/the developers logically.

The math is there for parses and they are going counter to your point. The parses presented now running meta PvE sets, i.e. high DPS sets, and are lower than live beam builds... which pivots to you discussing the damage setup that does less damage than that (so the non-beam equivalent version of the 'dps' spec)... following that, you're then saying that this is somehow the most damage you've ever seen possible (again how is it more damage ever possible yet these PvE builds that are better do mathematically more than the highest end of reworked wolf???)---

and that it's double 'this other thing' (this 'generic', other, sweatlord meta-build) yet refuse to provide a video to prove 'this other thing' (other 'generic' build like mentioned) does 'x', and that opponent is using+doing 'y' (I legitimately have no idea what you're fighting on that CMX protections-wise for either this 'generic' spec you never provided ANY proof of AND the damage-specced wolf via a video, which is the point being made here).

I mean, has pure-class-passives Pyrebrand DK with maybe so vat and masters went on your radar yet (for the 'generic' parse)? Pyrebrand was a major complaint and they adjusted by removing crit... now it has the potential to do 300% more damage and NOT negatively affect your other DoTs at random AND pure-class DK is actually just generally competitive with meta subclassing while being the closest fit for your werewolf play style (high sustained pressure especially via DoTs although werewolf still lacks true burst that DK has).

*I tried to spell out all intrinsic meaning in parenthesis so little is up for interpretation

Anyhow, I'm tired of sounding like a broken record my friend so I will keep an eye out for substantiated proof from you or Yandere but right now you just don't have it.

But hey, if they do this on your behalf (b/c no one agreeing with you is citing anything other than your screenshot missing a metric ton of information) then that is yet another example of content creators 'strong arming' their way into changes (for any given game) they (content creators) want with little to no actual evidence through gameplay. Make of that what you will. (I suppose the argument then is if the content creator speaks for the player base as a whole).

Hello, I was the person tanking 10.2k DPS from the screenshots React posted. If you want a video proof I can show you later.

WW is currently the highest DPS spec in the game and can kill practically anybody. I have been letting everyone parse me tonight on my tankiest setup (10.2k sustained HPS over almost 3 minutes). WW is the only spec that can consistently pull off 10k+ DPS to me. Everyone else has been doing at max 8k (DKs with pyrebrand and class masteries).

I would love a video showing prior to setup on both sides plus duel itself! I know it means very little in the grand scheme but I am happy to upvote the video for effort and will even give a quick sub+ comment for proof that I did since this can be a pain for sure.

Please also include the 'generic meta DK build' for comparison if you do this (Pyrebrand DK as you mentioned it is darn-close to the wolf spec you're getting hit by) so that we have something for reference as a base to compare to (I still hate that player skill and latency can cause discrepancy but it should be sufficient for highlighting these potential issues never the less.).

///

If it is that the high-end, full-damage wolf is 10k and this generic 'Pyrebrand' DK build is 8k (I do personally consider this to be the extreme end of acceptable balance though once again devs may not see this/wolf to be that way considering their recent past 1-2 year numeric changes to everything)...

...plus the bulk of damage is coming from pure-class sorcwolf (and if video shows this)... then I could personally, constructively debate having the pure-class, offending sorc damage passives temporarily disabled for wolf for the time being (as upcoming rework is likely to change them drastically anyway and sorc pureclass is definitely awful without them so they are needed and should be unchanged there, with my limited knowledge)...

Also, placing the light attack 'cap' for wolf but only in PvP may reign that in further without toasting the damage (i.e. not completely destroying PvP wolf in favor of slapping on the 'via monsters' tag or simply gutting PvP damage from their current vision as a whole) for PvP although not sure if that (light attack damage being uncapped) is really part of this equation as I'd have to see with my own eyes how everything is playing out on my screen to denote 'a problem' for that one (somewhat just referencing the prior parses if valid and accurate).

autocookies wrote: »

As a strictly PvE player who might one day try PvP, I sincerely hope werewolf is not nerfed into the ground again. As long as ultimate in werewolf form is much more sustainable, I will be very excited to run this in Infinite Archive, random dungeons, and less sweaty trials. Werewolf in PvE right now looks acceptable in my opinion (Assuming in form ult gen is sustainable)

autocookies wrote: »

As a strictly PvE player who might one day try PvP, I sincerely hope werewolf is not nerfed into the ground again. As long as ultimate in werewolf form is much more sustainable, I will be very excited to run this in Infinite Archive, random dungeons, and less sweaty trials. Werewolf in PvE right now looks acceptable in my opinion (Assuming in form ult gen is sustainable)

Wuuffyy wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

The fact that a 1 bar WW build with BROKEN weapon damage passives is getting 8K+ dps on players cannot go live.

hoangdz wrote: »

Sure i’ll record some when I log on. I haven’t seen any Sorcs doing sustained 8k DPS yet, but I’m curious to see that in a real fight.

Here are some "real fight" results of my Sorc vs WW dueler. Confirmed that 8k on StamSorc is replicable, even vs WW. In practice, WW has a hard time landing hits on Sorc.

Duel #1: Sorc win



Duel #2: WW win



Duel #3: Sorc win



From my POV, in practice WW seems balanced vs Sorc and DK. If anything is a problem it's Relequen doing 20% of your dps just from light attacking. It does not need to exist. Many metagame problems could be solved slamming "while Battle Spirit is inactive" onto certain sets.

I'm the one calling it before this devolves into madness-

If you don't have a video, you don't have proof prior or going forward (a CMX on a 'PvP dummy' means nothing). You are showing no one what you're wearing/doing outside of your visible procs (*cough* *cough* Relequen) or what your opponent is wearing or doing at all- this is highly disingenuous and not sufficient when you're talking about something needing to be nerfed by numbers alone.

I searched through the last few pages (so sincere apologies if I missed something) and even the person that said they were going to source a video didn't (I periodically checked out of respect for potential effort well throughout the day); the main individual making the claim did not source a video despite this being requested of them a number over 5 times. The nerf-calling party (the handful of individuals that jumped in here within minutes of each other with an agenda) has the 'burden of' real 'proof', unfortunately for them.

Werewolf is not a class, it's an ult that locks you out of abilities (and it is balanced around this AND still having access to class passives). I can still turn back into human also after all (it's literally never been cheaper to go back and forth before). Removing class passives for even werewolf alone removes my abilities to 'do what I want' and pureclass effectively in my human form.

If you want this or werewolf to be gutted, you must provide real proof otherwise I'm shipping it to live (yes, me, I'm doing it ) b/c you have nothing and only live at this point can prove your point (because if you can say whatever and expect it to happen, so can I).

CalamityCat wrote: »

We can't come to any solid conclusion about the strength of WW in PvP without trying WW on a range of class bases and builds to actually verify if the WW itself is broken. End of story. A video showing what is going on would make it a lot clearer too. If WW is genuinely so super OP, let's see some video evidence of that in actual mobile PvP and on different classes. If it is truly overtuned then it'll show up as that on different classes with their masteries and gear. It's like everyone's too shy to show the full picture here?

Class masteries are also new in the equation here and therefore they need to be taken into consideration. What people considered high PvP DPS on production doesn't include masteries. Did anyone test how much DPS the actual base sorc + gear + masteries can do without them being a WW? Actually properly test it like you're fighting and you mean it? What does this sorc base WW do when it has no masteries active?

If it's too strong on all classes with and without masteries then WW needs toned down for PvP (and only PvP!). But it shouldn't be nerfed until it's properly tested on all the different classes. Ideally testing these builds with and without WW to see what the class is capable of alone just with masteries. Otherwise the information is too limited to actually work as feedback/testing. Let's not nuke a cool revamp just because there is some agenda, especially if it's as ridiculous as "1 bar builds shouldn't be able to hurt me this much!" Because I know those players exist lol.

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

So what happens when the S+ Tier duelers fight each other? Do they bring tank builds or do they try to race dps? Is Pelican on WW that much better than Pelican on StamSorc?

Pelican on WW will farm Pelican on Stamsorc.

Dueling between S+ Tier duelers is 30% skill, 50% builds, and 20% latency. For example:

Both duelers A and B play on PC NA. They are both S+ tier and have perfect weaving, duel sense, etc. Dueler A lives in America and has 80-100ms ping, while dueler B lives in Asia/Australia and has 250-300ms ping. When they duel each other, these scenarios will happen:

Scenario 1:
If duelers A and B use identical builds, their DPS can be similar, sometimes even identical, but dueler A has a ping advantage and can break free from CCs faster. This means a simple Incap + Spectral Bow combo is often non-threatening because they can break free and roll the Bow. On the other hand, dueler B suffers from 150-200 extra ping. That aforementioned combo now becomes a death sentence, as the game does not allow them to break free from the Incap stun fast enough to avoid the Bow. Dueler A can play defense reactively, while dueler B has to play defense proactively. Dueler B has to output more effort because he has a ping disadvantage. Dueler A will win about 6 times out of 10, while dueler B will win about 4 times out of 10 due to this ping difference.

Scenario 2:
If dueler A uses a superior build/class, then dueler B simply has little to no chance winning vs dueler A. Not only do they have to fight with ping disadvantage, but they also have to fight with a build disadvantage. 9 out of 10 duels will be a loss for dueler B.

Scenario 3:
If dueler A uses an inferior build/class, then dueler B will win about 7-8 times out of 10 duels. This ratio is not the same that in scenario 2 because dueler B still suffers from ping disadvantage, meaning a well-timed CC can give dueler A just enough time to perform a 1-shot combo.

Scenario 4:
If either dueler uses an overwhelminingly superior build (such as WW or Pyrebrand DK), then the other one simply has zero chance of winning. The best they can do in that case is stalemate.

Guess what happened between me and Pelican? It was scenario 4. While we both play with 250-300 ping, Pelican's WW build is exceedingly superior to my stamsorc. If I ran 30k HP in my normal build, I would lose 10/10 times. The fight is 100% in his control, as he is the one with significantly higher DPS. The only way for me to fight Pelican's WW build is by stalemating and hoping that he messes up. That's it.

Not only that, but Pelican and Shoyru both dueled each other plenty of times on PTS (I'm sure you know how good Shoyru is as a dueler). Shoyru plays from America, while Pelican plays from Asia. However, Pelican's WW build is so disgustingly overpowered that Shoyru, in his normal setups, lost 10/10 times. The only way for him to fight Pelican was to stalemate.

xylena wrote: »

Why would I try to tank WW damage? I can beat average meta WW player by Streaking, avoiding their hits, and pressuring from range. They don't do 10k if they can't hit you. If I don't beat Pelican that's because he's a better dueler than me.

That’s not how it works. The argument of beating average players can be used for every previous broken meta in the game. Triple proc stacking meta, Hardened Ward meta, Subclassing meta, DK meta, etc. were all abused by average players, yet the only ones posing a real threat were top-tier ones. Average players are less mechanically sound and optimized than high-level players. They can run meta builds, but they're not going to line up burst abilities perfectly or have perfect weaving and micromanagement to achieve similar DPS as top-tier ones. Does that mean those builds shouldn't be nerfed? No.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

React wrote: »

For all of those asking for video proof of WW overperforming, here you go. Keep in mind that some of the players in this video are genuinely amongst the top pvp players in the entire game, getting absolutely obliterated with almost no chance of fighting back at all by a guy weaving two damaging skills with light attacks and 40k hp.

There is no defending how broken this is.

https://youtu.be/zYtbITjCW-4?si=geC3xCf8s0W9IhWw

This person is covering up their ability bar and add-ons, so I think this video is disingenuous. We would need full transparency if something is really going on otherwise who is to say this player is not simply exploiting---either in sets or in class mastery passives or other interactions we haven't thought of, those appear to be the real overpowered element.

You cannot be serious lmao

Do you know what an ability bar is ?

It JUST keeps going on, there are EVEN more examples of players deliberately telling you your delivery method is invalid and that 'what I did in a duel in Riften' is insufficient.

You are basing this off duels against players of both varying acumen, gear, and action. A 'controlled test', especially in one that refutes your claim (your claim being>>>)

(dk/sorc does 5k and werewolf trailing ahead at ~double as mentioned; although we now know, for sure, that your own people are claiming pureclass dk/sorc as 'pulling 8k' so not double based on whatever that means to y'all- so some forgiveness there as you couldn't have known as we are FAR TOO EARLY in the cycles)

involves 1 'generic meta DK' parse with proof of self/opponent skills, gear, and actions and then compare this to 1 'meta werewolf' parse with the same.

You rap this up in a video with no cuts. All of this back and fourth is gone. I can properly critique the video and draw conclusions (such as numbers or 'dueling behaviors'/lack there of) based on that.

React wrote: »

Meanwhile this whole time, all I've seen in return are constant remarks of "this doesn't suffice" and "this lacks context" from people who haven't provided a single thing of substance to substantiate their own claims.

-"burden of proof" friend, burden of proof. Although top-end parses (at this time) which are verifiable and replicatable have been my proof and are currently not showing werewolf beside reworked sorc/DK or ESPECIALLY above these via the high end of parses but rather closer to 'da beam builds with their 'max damage spec' (i.e. the spec(s) for maximum damage).

React wrote: »

He's since reached 14k DPS in one duel. The number is continuing to escalate as more setups are tested and people gain familiarity with the mechanics.

-that's great! I reached 17.3k on my sorc in my 1v1 PvP parse [inserts no other information/proof]. Also, didn't you or someone testing with you say that werewolf had no complexity? Wdym 'gaining familiarity with the mechanics'?

React wrote: »

I'm not going to continue arguing about this. I think there is more than enough for objective parties to sort through and decide for themselves what would be the correct path moving forward. Hopefully we'll hear from the team in advance of whatever they're planning to do/not do in the coming weeks, so a healthier conversation can be had there.

-mic drop moment. Well, except you never once provided objective proof but here's hoping they neither balance werewolf because 'streamer said so' or 1 v 1 dueling scenarios with no proof of skills/gear/ opponent skills/gear, etc.

It’s like arguing with brick walls.
You got so much feedback, you just don’t want to accept it.

I don’t think a lot of you guys know what it’s like to take or do 6k+ dps in PVP. And I stress pvp not pve.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

It’s like arguing with brick walls.
You got so much feedback, you just don’t want to accept it.

I don’t think a lot of you guys know what it’s like to take or do 6k+ dps in PVP. And I stress pvp not pve.

One of those 'champions of your cause' said that 6k is okay. You may want to bump your number up to 10k or 14k just to be safe.

xylena wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

I ask more or less because if 6k sustained DPS is still considered too high

It's not. We've been able to do that for years.

Remember, don't worry about what number you throw out or proving how you managed to come across it. Just toss it out like you're fishing.

React wrote: »

He's since reached 14k DPS in one duel. The number is continuing to escalate as more setups are tested and people gain familiarity with the mechanics.

Did you read and process what he said?

I'll break it down again.

1. 6k dps is already a lot for current standards.
2. its barely manageable if you play really well but not completely broken dps like pts WW
3. he conceded to allowing it to have 6k dps because while already very strong it is still comparable dps to the current TOP dps achievable.

Now, I said you don't understand what 6k dps is like because AGAIN you have to play really well to survive against that and you clearly don't understand that. That's enough against vast majority of players you'll come across apart from full tanks that are built specially to survives zergs in cyrodiil( this is not talking about tanky 1vX players).

In the video that showcases the strength of pts WW you can see someone of the best players getting parsed for much higher dps. This is an abnormality. WW does not need to be nerfed into uselessness BUT it should be toned down a bit.

Disable conservation of energy when transformed then. Sorcerer will get their rework eventually so might as well just have that patched up until then.

Soarora wrote: »

Weren’t sorcerers saying conservation of energy is a waste because sorc sustain is fine anyway? Should probably just change the passive in general.

Sorc doesn't need the sustain, but if you didn't notice it heals you every time you use an ability. Every sorc benefits from that.

Wup_sa wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Weren’t sorcerers saying conservation of energy is a waste because sorc sustain is fine anyway? Should probably just change the passive in general.

Sorc doesn't need the sustain, but if you didn't notice it heals you every time you use an ability. Every sorc benefits from that.

Not only ability, dodge roll and bash too.

It was obvious that they would make ww overpowered in pvp.. Just remove it from any pvp content entirely.

@Wuuffyy @Arunei

I think both of you should experience what it’s like to fight a 6k DPS build, either on PTS or the live server. You know, just for information’s sake. It’ll be eye-opening, and I can guarantee that after that experience, both of you will see what we meant about this 6k DPS value.