U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf

YandereGirlfriend · April 15

coop500 wrote: »

Devs, please please please make any nerfs you do for PvP actually only PvP. As you can see in the parses above, werewolf is just finally competitive, good and acceptable in PvE, do not gut this, do not ruin class uniqueness, do not ruin fun.

Definitely. I don't think that anyone wants to see WW get nerfed into the ground in PvE.

Fortunately, this iteration of the Combat Team seems to have a much lighter touch when it comes to that and is more open to making PvP-specific alterations to mechanics.

One or two magic number tweaks while "against players" likely solves any problems.

coop500 · April 15

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Devs, please please please make any nerfs you do for PvP actually only PvP. As you can see in the parses above, werewolf is just finally competitive, good and acceptable in PvE, do not gut this, do not ruin class uniqueness, do not ruin fun.

Definitely. I don't think that anyone wants to see WW get nerfed into the ground in PvE.

Fortunately, this iteration of the Combat Team seems to have a much lighter touch when it comes to that and is more open to making PvP-specific alterations to mechanics.

One or two magic number tweaks while "against players" likely solves any problems.

I hope so. I would be totally fine with 'against players' changes, but I'd be sad if they removed werewolf being able to interact with a few of the class masteries and stuff for example. Because this creates build diversity, my main werewolf is a Warden and the class masteries feel so fun to play with and theorycraft with.

OrangeMemes · April 15

Blood Hunger stacking with Claw Fury feels unreliable. From skill's description, I'd expect at least a full second at 4 stacks if I started channeling it with 0 stacks active, but in fact I'm either getting just 1 tick at 4 stacks or none at all. Given that it's around 3 ticks a second once you're channeling it, it probably ticks just a bit too early and we're getting 1 stack per 1.333s instead of 1 stack a second

ZhuJiuyin · April 15

I'd like to correct my previous statement: Due to the poor Chinese translation of the Worgen's skills, I misunderstood some skill effects and mechanics.

After retranslating and understanding the skill effects and mechanics myself, I found that the new Worgen doesn't necessarily need to rely on sets like Eye of the Grasp to gain ultimate points to maintain Worgen form, but it does need to accumulate Fury as quickly as possible to gain Rampage status. The advantage of this is that the Worgen can wear two damage sets, which increases its DPS by at least 10%.

I believe the new Worgen will have a chance to be included in HM Trials in PvE, as it can provide the team with Minor Courage, Feeding Frenzy (6% damage buff), and Major Courage, and can deal approximately 120K damage. Furthermore, due to Ferocious Roar's own synergy, the Worgen can use Roar of Alkosh. Therefore, even if the new Worgen's DPS isn't top-tier, its excellent support capabilities make it a viable option for teams to bring a Worgen to provide buffs.

Moreover, if you use Claw Fur, you only need to press 4+1 buttons to reach 120K, which is very easy to operate.

DPS Werewolf

Support Werewolf

Wuuffyy · April 15

autocookies wrote: »

As a strictly PvE player who might one day try PvP, I sincerely hope werewolf is not nerfed into the ground again. As long as ultimate in werewolf form is much more sustainable, I will be very excited to run this in Infinite Archive, random dungeons, and less sweaty trials. Werewolf in PvE right now looks acceptable in my opinion (Assuming in form ult gen is sustainable)

Don't personally understand the PvE/PvP exclusion here. Is werewolf not allowed to be good in PvP too (not directing this at you per-say OP)?

2-3 people come in at the exact same time and post an agenda-based, set of same-statements with what I consider little-to-no-proof and contrary to damage-stacking DPS parses and as a result despite everyone dealing with current DK, a 50+ percent increase on parses in the last 1 to 2 years, and bow+beetles w/auto-purge- we aren't allowed to have a good werewolf in PvP?

Werewolf has been abysmal for 5+ years and has grown farther and farther apart from being viable yet unlike DK which went through the PTS with flying colours- I need to be in fear for my life that werewolf won't even make it through PTS even though it has glaring deficiencies such as ability to sustain berserker, countless bugs impacting damage such as monomyth, etc.?

Why is that?

Wuuffyy · April 15

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I'd like to correct my previous statement: Due to the poor Chinese translation of the Worgen's skills, I misunderstood some skill effects and mechanics.

After retranslating and understanding the skill effects and mechanics myself, I found that the new Worgen doesn't necessarily need to rely on sets like Eye of the Grasp to gain ultimate points to maintain Worgen form, but it does need to accumulate Fury as quickly as possible to gain Rampage status. The advantage of this is that the Worgen can wear two damage sets, which increases its DPS by at least 10%.

I believe the new Worgen will have a chance to be included in HM Trials in PvE, as it can provide the team with Minor Courage, Feeding Frenzy (6% damage buff), and Major Courage, and can deal approximately 120K damage. Furthermore, due to Ferocious Roar's own synergy, the Worgen can use Roar of Alkosh. Therefore, even if the new Worgen's DPS isn't top-tier, its excellent support capabilities make it a viable option for teams to bring a Worgen to provide buffs.

Moreover, if you use Claw Fur, you only need to press 4+1 buttons to reach 120K, which is very easy to operate.

DPS Werewolf

Support Werewolf

Thank you for this! Good to know there is a little more oomph. Once again using 'claw fury' and it's nice that the parses are close but still under the mark of the 150k or so of beam parse right now. (adding context for others here, hence response).

Additionally, have you considered the limitations with 'claw fury' being melee in certain content? Sure a dummy is still and doesn't throw mechs, but especially on the older trials you have both mechs and consistent movement (which can easily take you out of range) to contend to.

*Worgen haha

Erickson9610 · April 15

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Devs, please please please make any nerfs you do for PvP actually only PvP. As you can see in the parses above, werewolf is just finally competitive, good and acceptable in PvE, do not gut this, do not ruin class uniqueness, do not ruin fun.

Definitely. I don't think that anyone wants to see WW get nerfed into the ground in PvE.

Fortunately, this iteration of the Combat Team seems to have a much lighter touch when it comes to that and is more open to making PvP-specific alterations to mechanics.

One or two magic number tweaks while "against players" likely solves any problems.

Whatever changes happen should not make Werewolves irrelevant or undesirable to play in PvP. We belong there, too.

How many Werewolf players do you see in PvP outside of guild events? Hardly any, from my experience. I hope Update 50 makes Werewolf viable again so that we see more people using it.

It feels like nearly everyone switched over to Dragonknight (or Subclassed some Dragonknight lines) in Update 49, so I want to see people using Werewolf in Update 50. Unlike Vampire or Dragonknight, Werewolf requires you to go all in to get any of its benefits — nerf it too much and it'll be in the same spot as it was before.

Werewolf must be overtuned to convince anyone to abandon the human form builds in practice; what Werewolf lacks in flexibility, it makes up for in raw power. This isn't merely a one bar build, because one bar builds have access to so many more abilities, passives, and core combat mechanics than werewolves do.

React · April 15

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm pulling 45k on the 6m dummy to try on my end to translate proof (or lack there of) for overbearing damage running full damage sets slated for PvP (i.e. not a dueling set like rele) with the standard tri-glyphs and mag recovery for werewolf heal (PTS is dead rn I cannot find anyone to duel)

~build~

I have on fully golded monomyth, Yandir's might (just heavy attack once every 15 seconds for 680 BUFFABLE wep/spell), Aerie's cry (literally a damage proc set that gives me more damage than essence thief; 'free' minor toughness from skill line), 1 pc magma, 1 pc monomyth (it's bugged if you die in wolf so this was from a fresh transformation) , flame/poison glyphs with nirnhoned + sharpened, and Orzorga's for food.

Disclaimer: I know there is still more of a focus on having stam recovery on this build which I could certainly reduce to have more straight stats with sustain changes (this would NOT net me MORE than 3k additional on this parse I consider this inconsequential for the message I am trying to relay.

~parse method (skills roto)

focused on keeping any and every skill and buff up only when needed (refresh at last second) while making sure to use spammable ANY opportunity I have the chance outside of those parameters.

///

For reference, I believe a meta PvE DPS is 60-70k+... which means a build like that would do MORE sustained damage in PvP than wolf since the claim is 'this is the highest you've ever seen'.

So the only complaint you must have here is that this 45k is being done on one bar... and I don't know what you're really wanting here as this is the dev's choice and it desperately needed this rework (and I'm going to be real in saying that... it took 5-10 years to get this). If they nerf numbers into oblivion for PTS alone, especially based on testimony, it will most likely never compete with subclassing and the ilk, and never be viable again).

*another disclaimer, 'burden of proof' is not on me (i.e. video to demonstrate my claim) since 100k parse with meta sets exists in same form (100k being good but only being up to 75% of top-end dps with beam, etc.) : )

Respectfully, this setup is awful. You're on the wrong class, you're using sustain when you can legitimately build zero regen and use double armor potions with 35k+ HP and stamina on the correct class, and you're hitting a PVE dummy to try and prove that the PVP parses I shared are somehow irrelevant.

I'm not trying to see WW nerfed in PVE in any case. It definitely did need a rework as it was sort of "dead content" in both areas of the game, outside of roleplay/fantasy for people who enjoy that sort of thing. I don't mind seeing the damage, mechanical, and utility buffs it received.

I do have an issue when a build with half the mechanical complexity of a meta PVP build is outputting double the damage, though. Especially when that damage has nearly no counterplay other than "run maras/cleansing revival/wyrd tree".

My original question was just that; a question. Are class mastery passives supposed to be working in WW form? If this is intended, then there might need to be some adjustments based on the numbers we're seeing on the PTS. Things like adding "against monsters" stipulations to certain skills, much like they did with the reworked DK.

coop500 · April 15

For the upset PvP werewolf folks, assuming at me:
I say what I say because I don't have the knowledge or authority to discuss whether werewolf is currently balanced for PvP or not. Personally though I think it's too early for anyone to say until more testing and counters are experimented with, and for werewolf itself to get it's bugs ironed out.

But I've been here for 9 years, I am FATIGUED to death by seeing all my favorite playstyles and classes destroyed for the sake of PvP when all I want to do is play in PvE in peace and actually enjoy the game without feeling like I have to run meta builds or forever suck because everything else got gutted for one reason or another. Usually for PvP reasons but not always.

With the nature of werewolf being a 1 bar playstyle (as someone already mentioned as a reason for why it can't be strong) I knew this was coming because of the 1 bar vs 2 bar elitism. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if PvEers who hate werewolf start complaining that it can maybe pull similar numbers as they can soon. Ignoring that they are always at a steep disadvantage by being melee only (this also applies to PvP too BTW).

I'm done, I'm out, I don't care anymore. I just want to stop being gutted every 3-6 months over a mode that I actually hate (PvP and more recently, trials). I'm sick and tired of people demanding the entire game to be balanced around these specific two aspects of the game (and the top like 5% of players) when there's SO MUCH MORE going on for it, including lots of solo stuff, and varying skill levels and unique builds that could flourish.

GulmarAvocado · April 15

10k DPS in a duel is completely normal and healthy, surely.

Wuuffyy · April 15

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm pulling 45k on the 6m dummy to try on my end to translate proof (or lack there of) for overbearing damage running full damage sets slated for PvP (i.e. not a dueling set like rele) with the standard tri-glyphs and mag recovery for werewolf heal (PTS is dead rn I cannot find anyone to duel)

~build~

I have on fully golded monomyth, Yandir's might (just heavy attack once every 15 seconds for 680 BUFFABLE wep/spell), Aerie's cry (literally a damage proc set that gives me more damage than essence thief; 'free' minor toughness from skill line), 1 pc magma, 1 pc monomyth (it's bugged if you die in wolf so this was from a fresh transformation) , flame/poison glyphs with nirnhoned + sharpened, and Orzorga's for food.

Disclaimer: I know there is still more of a focus on having stam recovery on this build which I could certainly reduce to have more straight stats with sustain changes (this would NOT net me MORE than 3k additional on this parse I consider this inconsequential for the message I am trying to relay.

~parse method (skills roto)

focused on keeping any and every skill and buff up only when needed (refresh at last second) while making sure to use spammable ANY opportunity I have the chance outside of those parameters.

///

For reference, I believe a meta PvE DPS is 60-70k+... which means a build like that would do MORE sustained damage in PvP than wolf since the claim is 'this is the highest you've ever seen'.

So the only complaint you must have here is that this 45k is being done on one bar... and I don't know what you're really wanting here as this is the dev's choice and it desperately needed this rework (and I'm going to be real in saying that... it took 5-10 years to get this). If they nerf numbers into oblivion for PTS alone, especially based on testimony, it will most likely never compete with subclassing and the ilk, and never be viable again).

*another disclaimer, 'burden of proof' is not on me (i.e. video to demonstrate my claim) since 100k parse with meta sets exists in same form (100k being good but only being up to 75% of top-end dps with beam, etc.) : )

Respectfully, this setup is awful. You're on the wrong class, you're using sustain when you can legitimately build zero regen and use double armor potions with 35k+ HP and stamina on the correct class, and you're hitting a PVE dummy to try and prove that the PVP parses I shared are somehow irrelevant.

I'm not trying to see WW nerfed in PVE in any case. It definitely did need a rework as it was sort of "dead content" in both areas of the game, outside of roleplay/fantasy for people who enjoy that sort of thing. I don't mind seeing the damage, mechanical, and utility buffs it received.

I do have an issue when a build with half the mechanical complexity of a meta PVP build is outputting double the damage, though. Especially when that damage has nearly no counterplay other than "run maras/cleansing revival/wyrd tree".

My original question was just that; a question. Are class mastery passives supposed to be working in WW form? If this is intended, then there might need to be some adjustments based on the numbers we're seeing on the PTS. Things like adding "against monsters" stipulations to certain skills, much like they did with the reworked DK.

I'm running warden (for minor tough proc and now-overtuned set for PvP which is similar damage wise to combining unfathomable darkness and essence thief in 1 set), sorc (stormcalling for passives), and burning light (templar skill line for passive).

The sets are high-end damage which is amazing for sustained damage (do you not know a lot about the game to be able to identify how these things work; to see how bloated the sets are???), and your parses are running Relequen (hate to break it to you but GL hitting half of those stacks without killing someone on a full damage build) without a video or comparison of how this differs from my input there via the same regarding pure class DK or the burst that subclassing provides.

You keep saying that it 'doubles' over everything but then everything I'm showing you is parsing less than your standard beamcanist build on dummy with its beam-equivalent 'claws' morph (I keep citing this because this is the HIGHEST DPS you can achieve on werewolf unless they REALLY scuffed numbers for the standard spammable outside of execute... they did not btw as people are saying they have less DPS casting the standard spammable during a roto instead of just everything else + 'claws')?

I just need you to make it make sense is all, you aren't doing that regardless of what you just said. Actually, not even 'I'- you NEED to make it make sense otherwise you're throwing a parse with Relequen on it and attempting to use your status and tenure to strongarm your point.

Wuuffyy · April 15

coop500 wrote: »

I'm done, I'm out, I don't care anymore.

I read the rest of what you said but honestly, same. I don't care whether or not this goes through and if it's good...

I've been waiting for 5-10 years for wolf to be reworked and viable, and if it doesn't happen I just won't be on as much barring certain class releases (like now, and NO I did not care for DK rework b/c I simply don't care about DK : ), so I'll live.

End of the day- they just gutted one of the main campaigns+ IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, BGs is still a one-sided flop 75% of the time (due to lack of valid MMR possibly due to PvP player count), IC is as 'dead as a doorknob', and the endgame PvP is just a bunch of toxic duelers that are quite ready to unleash their life's anger after losing a duel if you catch my drift (this one is definitely speaking from personal experience so your milage may vary).

I simply didn't want someone coming in here saying something is blatantly OP, contrary to parses, and seemingly trying to use namesake to spearhead harsh adjustments (again, still waiting on a video- as I would also like to provide suggestions on what they could change/move around for whatever IS overperforming, if so, that we DON'T gut werewolf completely before launch in PvP).

GulmarAvocado wrote: »

10k DPS in a duel is completely normal and healthy, surely.

Again, If I hop on a PvE build, and you sit there for a minute and 30 just healing (IG that's what's happening), and you don't move... I imagine with however they are testing this (again, videos for proof work WONDERS for debating claims like this)... I will do MORE damage (so a very concerning portion of the claim used as 'evidence' here is misleading)- BUT we wouldn't deem that as a 'problem'.

I want to see a comparison, as I don't go around grabbing CMXs of all of my PvP fights, which includes video-proof of gear with rotation showing CMX results for another top-end spec doing 'half the damage'. All I've seen are CMXs with Relequen on where the werewolf spammable is averaging less than ~5k a second with a metric, fluff-ton of potential variables that invalidate the claim without further information- this is how providing evidence works (you either provide proper evidence or your claim lacks legitimacy).

///

I wanted to kind of make an end-all for my argument here + show this (which is yet another example of the developers REALIZING and ACKNOWLEDGING that they are intentionally adding POWER into the game):

"Player pets have had their defensive capabilities updated to account for the >>>ever growing power scaling updates for player abilities.<<<" which is quite literally at the top of the PTS patch notes (so you're aware that power increases for DK and werewolf ARE intentional).

*to note from earlier discussion, 'for monsters' is a great modifier but they designed this wolf just as much with PvP in mind and unless it receives care it's likely to become undertuned... again... there).

I actually came in here to provide further feedback so this is what I'll do directly below>>>

React · April 15

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm running warden (for minor tough proc and now-overtuned set for PvP which is similar damage wise to combining unfathomable darkness and essence thief in 1 set), sorc (stormcalling for passives), and burning light (templar skill line for passive).

Ah, so you aren't even utilizing the class mastery passives which are the entirety of what I was asking about in this thread, and what are responsible for the problematic DPS I am referencing.

Got it.

Wuuffyy · April 15

Suggestion

Is there anything else you would like to share about the Werewolf changes?

The morph of the werewolf skill 'Gnash' known as 'bloody gnash' could use some oomph. Outside of a perfectly optimized group, I see very little reason to choose this morph over the other one that supplies incoming healing making my simplified-rotations safer.

Before end of PTS, I would like to see bloody gnash go from a 50% chance not to consume a 'Blood Hunger' (werewolf, skill damage increase modifier stack) to potentially something more guaranteed and dependable (like a guarantee not to consume a stack once every 2 seconds i.e. one in every 2 or so skill casts if spamming).

Wuuffyy · April 15

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm running warden (for minor tough proc and now-overtuned set for PvP which is similar damage wise to combining unfathomable darkness and essence thief in 1 set), sorc (stormcalling for passives), and burning light (templar skill line for passive).

Ah, so you aren't even utilizing the class mastery passives which are the entirety of what I was asking about in this thread, and what are responsible for the problematic DPS I am referencing.

Got it.

Nothing, and I mean nothing in there is giving such a blatant increase to werewolf that it isn't giving to certain pure classes.

The MOST problematic line (I Imagine) would be sorc and you could SIMPLY disable the offending damage passives (on werewolf) for THAT PARTICULAR class mastery line until the values are most-likely brought down during its rework... Even then we're talking about losing passives like BURNING LIGHT in that scenario and slapping on 1-2 defensive/pseudo-defensive skill lines to access what should be, at that point, should make those passives rather marginal.

Again, I have seen no evidence outside of your very biased Relequen parse detailing little to nothing about what is happening and the variables in your test (I, once again, am asking your for video proof... I may be exaggerating but I have asked for this very simple item to back up your claim upwards of 5-10 times now... you have the 'burden of proof' here and that screenshot missing heaps of context isn't it).

Ataskir · April 15

How about y’all just duel this out or something? That’ll probably give you all the info you need on this!

IncultaWolf · April 15

Erickson9610 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Devs, please please please make any nerfs you do for PvP actually only PvP. As you can see in the parses above, werewolf is just finally competitive, good and acceptable in PvE, do not gut this, do not ruin class uniqueness, do not ruin fun.

Definitely. I don't think that anyone wants to see WW get nerfed into the ground in PvE.

Fortunately, this iteration of the Combat Team seems to have a much lighter touch when it comes to that and is more open to making PvP-specific alterations to mechanics.

One or two magic number tweaks while "against players" likely solves any problems.

Whatever changes happen should not make Werewolves irrelevant or undesirable to play in PvP. We belong there, too.

How many Werewolf players do you see in PvP outside of guild events? Hardly any, from my experience. I hope Update 50 makes Werewolf viable again so that we see more people using it.

It feels like nearly everyone switched over to Dragonknight (or Subclassed some Dragonknight lines) in Update 49, so I want to see people using Werewolf in Update 50. Unlike Vampire or Dragonknight, Werewolf requires you to go all in to get any of its benefits — nerf it too much and it'll be in the same spot as it was before.

Werewolf must be overtuned to convince anyone to abandon the human form builds in practice; what Werewolf lacks in flexibility, it makes up for in raw power. This isn't merely a one bar build, because one bar builds have access to so many more abilities, passives, and core combat mechanics than werewolves do.

This sums it up perfectly. 💯

People forget what all you're giving up by playing werewolf. No backbar, no shields, no off heals for your allies, no range damage, no burst damage, no support ults, no weapon passives, no snare removal or purge, and we have to deal with a timer mini game. Werewolf deserves to be strong given all the drawbacks.

I think it's fair considering DK can currently insta nuke multiple players at once with acuity corrosive, leaving very little counterplay meanwhile having multiple forms of group utility and aoe heals for themselves and allies.

xylena · April 15

Delete Relequen from PvP along with all the other busted procs (RoA, Null Arca, Charm, etc) before screaming for class nerfs. Check for unintended behavior in the Sorc WD interaction.

React · April 15

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm running warden (for minor tough proc and now-overtuned set for PvP which is similar damage wise to combining unfathomable darkness and essence thief in 1 set), sorc (stormcalling for passives), and burning light (templar skill line for passive).

Ah, so you aren't even utilizing the class mastery passives which are the entirety of what I was asking about in this thread, and what are responsible for the problematic DPS I am referencing.

Got it.

Nothing, and I mean nothing in there is giving such a blatant increase to werewolf that it isn't giving to certain pure classes.

The MOST problematic line (I Imagine) would be sorc and you could SIMPLY disable the offending damage passives (on werewolf) for THAT PARTICULAR class mastery line until the values are most-likely brought down during its rework... Even then we're talking about losing passives like BURNING LIGHT in that scenario and slapping on 1-2 defensive/pseudo-defensive skill lines to access what should be, at that point, should make those passives rather marginal.

Again, I have seen no evidence outside of your very biased Relequen parse detailing little to nothing about what is happening and the variables in your test (I, once again, am asking your for video proof... I may be exaggerating but I have asked for this very simple item to back up your claim upwards of 5-10 times now... you have the 'burden of proof' here and that screenshot missing heaps of context isn't it).

40k HP WW doing 10k dps without relequen over a 1.5 minute normal duel to a 34k phys/spell resist rallying cry player, who is using a disgusting amount of hots and defensive stuff to survive.

Missing 33% weapon damage from the passive assuming the bug reports about it are correct.

He was accidently not wearing one of his 5 piece sets here. This is 3x tfs, 2x rele, 5x savage.

Here's 10k dps to that same player sustained over 2 minutes 40 seconds, when he was actually wearing his 5p tfs.

Wuuffyy · April 15

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm running warden (for minor tough proc and now-overtuned set for PvP which is similar damage wise to combining unfathomable darkness and essence thief in 1 set), sorc (stormcalling for passives), and burning light (templar skill line for passive).

Ah, so you aren't even utilizing the class mastery passives which are the entirety of what I was asking about in this thread, and what are responsible for the problematic DPS I am referencing.

Got it.

Nothing, and I mean nothing in there is giving such a blatant increase to werewolf that it isn't giving to certain pure classes.

The MOST problematic line (I Imagine) would be sorc and you could SIMPLY disable the offending damage passives (on werewolf) for THAT PARTICULAR class mastery line until the values are most-likely brought down during its rework... Even then we're talking about losing passives like BURNING LIGHT in that scenario and slapping on 1-2 defensive/pseudo-defensive skill lines to access what should be, at that point, should make those passives rather marginal.

Again, I have seen no evidence outside of your very biased Relequen parse detailing little to nothing about what is happening and the variables in your test (I, once again, am asking your for video proof... I may be exaggerating but I have asked for this very simple item to back up your claim upwards of 5-10 times now... you have the 'burden of proof' here and that screenshot missing heaps of context isn't it).

40k HP WW doing 10k dps without relequen over a 1.5 minute normal duel to a 34k phys/spell resist rallying cry player, who is using a disgusting amount of hots and defensive stuff to survive.

Missing 33% weapon damage from the passive assuming the bug reports about it are correct.

He was accidently not wearing one of his 5 piece sets here. This is 3x tfs, 2x rele, 5x savage.

Here's 10k dps to that same player sustained over 2 minutes 40 seconds, when he was actually wearing his 5p tfs.

Until you can provide a video instead of screenshot which is organically removing half of what you're running and all of what your opponent is running and doing gameplay-wise (you have not shown this OR the other spec you are claiming werewolf now 'doubles'), then I am not inclined to put full stock in this and neither should other players/the developers logically.

The math is there for parses and they are going counter to your point. The parses presented now running meta PvE sets, i.e. high DPS sets, and are lower than live beam builds... which pivots to you discussing the damage setup that does less damage than that (so the non-beam equivalent version of the ww 'dps' spec w/ dps morphs)... following that, you're then saying that this is somehow the most damage you've ever seen possible (again how is it more damage ever possible yet these PvE builds that are better do mathematically more than the highest end of reworked wolf??? and they exist now on live)---

and then- that it's doubling 'this other thing' (this 'generic', other, sweatlord meta-build) yet refuse to provide a video to prove 'this other thing' (other 'generic' build like mentioned) does 'x', and that opponent is using+doing 'y' (I legitimately have no idea what you're fighting on that CMX protections-wise for either this 'generic' spec you never provided ANY proof of OR the damage-specced wolf via a video, which is the point being made here).

I mean, has pure-class-passives Pyrebrand DK with maybe so vat and masters went on your radar yet (for the 'generic' parse)? Pyrebrand was a major complaint and they adjusted by removing crit... now it has the potential to do 300% more damage and NOT negatively affect your other DoTs at random AND pure-class DK is actually just generally competitive with meta subclassing while being the closest fit for your werewolf play style (high sustained pressure especially via DoTs although werewolf still lacks true burst that DK has).

*I tried to spell out all intrinsic meaning in parenthesis so little is up for interpretation

Anyhow, I'm tired of sounding like a broken record my friend so I will keep an eye out for substantiated proof from you or Yandere but right now you just don't have it.

But hey, if they do this on your behalf (b/c no one agreeing with you is citing anything other than your screenshot missing a metric ton of information) then that is yet another example of content creators 'strong arming' their way into changes (for any given game) they (content creators) want with little to no actual evidence through gameplay. Make of that what you will. (I suppose the argument then becomes 'is what the content creator saying speaking for the player base as a whole/at least the majority).

Yarcanine · April 15

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm running warden (for minor tough proc and now-overtuned set for PvP which is similar damage wise to combining unfathomable darkness and essence thief in 1 set), sorc (stormcalling for passives), and burning light (templar skill line for passive).

Ah, so you aren't even utilizing the class mastery passives which are the entirety of what I was asking about in this thread, and what are responsible for the problematic DPS I am referencing.

Got it.

Nothing, and I mean nothing in there is giving such a blatant increase to werewolf that it isn't giving to certain pure classes.

The MOST problematic line (I Imagine) would be sorc and you could SIMPLY disable the offending damage passives (on werewolf) for THAT PARTICULAR class mastery line until the values are most-likely brought down during its rework... Even then we're talking about losing passives like BURNING LIGHT in that scenario and slapping on 1-2 defensive/pseudo-defensive skill lines to access what should be, at that point, should make those passives rather marginal.

Again, I have seen no evidence outside of your very biased Relequen parse detailing little to nothing about what is happening and the variables in your test (I, once again, am asking your for video proof... I may be exaggerating but I have asked for this very simple item to back up your claim upwards of 5-10 times now... you have the 'burden of proof' here and that screenshot missing heaps of context isn't it).

40k HP WW doing 10k dps without relequen over a 1.5 minute normal duel to a 34k phys/spell resist rallying cry player, who is using a disgusting amount of hots and defensive stuff to survive.

Missing 33% weapon damage from the passive assuming the bug reports about it are correct.

He was accidently not wearing one of his 5 piece sets here. This is 3x tfs, 2x rele, 5x savage.

Here's 10k dps to that same player sustained over 2 minutes 40 seconds, when he was actually wearing his 5p tfs.

No ability in that recap looks egregiously over tuned. Just seems like WW combined with Sorc Mastery Passives has so much incoming healing and sustain that they can be 100% offensive the entire duel so the opponent just ends up being a parse dummy. In any scenario where the werewolf is pressured and has to play defensively the damage would fall off a cliff very fast

Wuuffyy · April 15

Yarcanine wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm running warden (for minor tough proc and now-overtuned set for PvP which is similar damage wise to combining unfathomable darkness and essence thief in 1 set), sorc (stormcalling for passives), and burning light (templar skill line for passive).

Ah, so you aren't even utilizing the class mastery passives which are the entirety of what I was asking about in this thread, and what are responsible for the problematic DPS I am referencing.

Got it.

Nothing, and I mean nothing in there is giving such a blatant increase to werewolf that it isn't giving to certain pure classes.

The MOST problematic line (I Imagine) would be sorc and you could SIMPLY disable the offending damage passives (on werewolf) for THAT PARTICULAR class mastery line until the values are most-likely brought down during its rework... Even then we're talking about losing passives like BURNING LIGHT in that scenario and slapping on 1-2 defensive/pseudo-defensive skill lines to access what should be, at that point, should make those passives rather marginal.

Again, I have seen no evidence outside of your very biased Relequen parse detailing little to nothing about what is happening and the variables in your test (I, once again, am asking your for video proof... I may be exaggerating but I have asked for this very simple item to back up your claim upwards of 5-10 times now... you have the 'burden of proof' here and that screenshot missing heaps of context isn't it).

40k HP WW doing 10k dps without relequen over a 1.5 minute normal duel to a 34k phys/spell resist rallying cry player, who is using a disgusting amount of hots and defensive stuff to survive.

Missing 33% weapon damage from the passive assuming the bug reports about it are correct.

He was accidently not wearing one of his 5 piece sets here. This is 3x tfs, 2x rele, 5x savage.

Here's 10k dps to that same player sustained over 2 minutes 40 seconds, when he was actually wearing his 5p tfs.

No ability in that recap looks egregiously over tuned. Just seems like WW combined with Sorc Mastery Passives has so much incoming healing and sustain that they can be 100% offensive the entire duel so the opponent just ends up being a parse dummy. In any scenario where the werewolf is pressured and has to play defensively the damage would fall off a cliff very fast

I mean, was this even a duel? There's no way a player could sustain taking 10k+ while attacking (think being on frontbar v.s. staying on backbar and just healing without attacking and/or stunning).

Like the most egregious think I see is the light attack damage (they uncapped it for werewolf however that translates) but not only is weaving considered 'skillful' but is the number that far removed from a standard damage spec (?).

React, I respect that you're passionate about advocating for this, I just wish there was more here to provide input. You clearly believe there's a problem and by extension I believe that I'd like to see this demonstrated to me in a meaningful way ASAP so I can add my own feedback on how I think it should be 'fixed' BEFORE we slap an 'on monsters' tag or worst-case bar werewolf from class passives entirely, if so.

Again, metrics on parses aren't showing this but just b/c something looks good or bad on paper doesn't mean it translates the same in actual combat of course.

hoangdz · April 15

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm running warden (for minor tough proc and now-overtuned set for PvP which is similar damage wise to combining unfathomable darkness and essence thief in 1 set), sorc (stormcalling for passives), and burning light (templar skill line for passive).

Ah, so you aren't even utilizing the class mastery passives which are the entirety of what I was asking about in this thread, and what are responsible for the problematic DPS I am referencing.

Got it.

Nothing, and I mean nothing in there is giving such a blatant increase to werewolf that it isn't giving to certain pure classes.

The MOST problematic line (I Imagine) would be sorc and you could SIMPLY disable the offending damage passives (on werewolf) for THAT PARTICULAR class mastery line until the values are most-likely brought down during its rework... Even then we're talking about losing passives like BURNING LIGHT in that scenario and slapping on 1-2 defensive/pseudo-defensive skill lines to access what should be, at that point, should make those passives rather marginal.

Again, I have seen no evidence outside of your very biased Relequen parse detailing little to nothing about what is happening and the variables in your test (I, once again, am asking your for video proof... I may be exaggerating but I have asked for this very simple item to back up your claim upwards of 5-10 times now... you have the 'burden of proof' here and that screenshot missing heaps of context isn't it).

40k HP WW doing 10k dps without relequen over a 1.5 minute normal duel to a 34k phys/spell resist rallying cry player, who is using a disgusting amount of hots and defensive stuff to survive.

Missing 33% weapon damage from the passive assuming the bug reports about it are correct.

He was accidently not wearing one of his 5 piece sets here. This is 3x tfs, 2x rele, 5x savage.

Here's 10k dps to that same player sustained over 2 minutes 40 seconds, when he was actually wearing his 5p tfs.

Until you can provide a video instead of screenshot which is organically removing half of what you're running and all of what you're opponent is running and doing gameplay-wise (you have not shown this OR the other spec you are claiming werewolf now 'doubles'), then I am not inclined to put full stock in this and neither should other players/the developers logically.

The math is there for parses and they are going counter to your point. The parses presented now running meta PvE sets, i.e. high DPS sets, and are lower than live beam builds... which pivots to you discussing the damage setup that does less damage than that (so the non-beam equivalent version of the 'dps' spec)... following that, you're then saying that this is somehow the most damage you've ever seen possible (again how is it more damage ever possible yet these PvE builds that are better do mathematically more than the highest end of reworked wolf???)---

and that it's double 'this other thing' (this 'generic', other, sweatlord meta-build) yet refuse to provide a video to prove 'this other thing' (other 'generic' build like mentioned) does 'x', and that opponent is using+doing 'y' (I legitimately have no idea what you're fighting on that CMX protections-wise for either this 'generic' spec you never provided ANY proof of AND the damage-specced wolf via a video, which is the point being made here).

I mean, has pure-class-passives Pyrebrand DK with maybe so vat and masters went on your radar yet (for the 'generic' parse)? Pyrebrand was a major complaint and they adjusted by removing crit... now it has the potential to do 300% more damage and NOT negatively affect your other DoTs at random AND pure-class DK is actually just generally competitive with meta subclassing while being the closest fit for your werewolf play style (high sustained pressure especially via DoTs although werewolf still lacks true burst that DK has).

*I tried to spell out all intrinsic meaning in parenthesis so little is up for interpretation

Anyhow, I'm tired of sounding like a broken record my friend so I will keep an eye out for substantiated proof from you or Yandere but right now you just don't have it.

But hey, if they do this on your behalf (b/c no one agreeing with you is citing anything other than your screenshot missing a metric ton of information) then that is yet another example of content creators 'strong arming' their way into changes (for any given game) they (content creators) want with little to no actual evidence through gameplay. Make of that what you will. (I suppose the argument then is if the content creator speaks for the player base as a whole).

Hello, I was the person tanking 10.2k DPS from the screenshots React posted. If you want a video proof I can show you later.

WW is currently the highest DPS spec in the game and can kill practically anybody. I have been letting everyone parse me tonight on my tankiest setup (10.2k sustained HPS over almost 3 minutes). WW is the only spec that can consistently pull off 10k+ DPS to me. Everyone else has been doing at max 8k (DKs with pyrebrand and class masteries).

Wuuffyy · April 15

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I'm running warden (for minor tough proc and now-overtuned set for PvP which is similar damage wise to combining unfathomable darkness and essence thief in 1 set), sorc (stormcalling for passives), and burning light (templar skill line for passive).

Ah, so you aren't even utilizing the class mastery passives which are the entirety of what I was asking about in this thread, and what are responsible for the problematic DPS I am referencing.

Got it.

Nothing, and I mean nothing in there is giving such a blatant increase to werewolf that it isn't giving to certain pure classes.

The MOST problematic line (I Imagine) would be sorc and you could SIMPLY disable the offending damage passives (on werewolf) for THAT PARTICULAR class mastery line until the values are most-likely brought down during its rework... Even then we're talking about losing passives like BURNING LIGHT in that scenario and slapping on 1-2 defensive/pseudo-defensive skill lines to access what should be, at that point, should make those passives rather marginal.

Again, I have seen no evidence outside of your very biased Relequen parse detailing little to nothing about what is happening and the variables in your test (I, once again, am asking your for video proof... I may be exaggerating but I have asked for this very simple item to back up your claim upwards of 5-10 times now... you have the 'burden of proof' here and that screenshot missing heaps of context isn't it).

40k HP WW doing 10k dps without relequen over a 1.5 minute normal duel to a 34k phys/spell resist rallying cry player, who is using a disgusting amount of hots and defensive stuff to survive.

Missing 33% weapon damage from the passive assuming the bug reports about it are correct.

He was accidently not wearing one of his 5 piece sets here. This is 3x tfs, 2x rele, 5x savage.

Here's 10k dps to that same player sustained over 2 minutes 40 seconds, when he was actually wearing his 5p tfs.

Until you can provide a video instead of screenshot which is organically removing half of what you're running and all of what you're opponent is running and doing gameplay-wise (you have not shown this OR the other spec you are claiming werewolf now 'doubles'), then I am not inclined to put full stock in this and neither should other players/the developers logically.

The math is there for parses and they are going counter to your point. The parses presented now running meta PvE sets, i.e. high DPS sets, and are lower than live beam builds... which pivots to you discussing the damage setup that does less damage than that (so the non-beam equivalent version of the 'dps' spec)... following that, you're then saying that this is somehow the most damage you've ever seen possible (again how is it more damage ever possible yet these PvE builds that are better do mathematically more than the highest end of reworked wolf???)---

and that it's double 'this other thing' (this 'generic', other, sweatlord meta-build) yet refuse to provide a video to prove 'this other thing' (other 'generic' build like mentioned) does 'x', and that opponent is using+doing 'y' (I legitimately have no idea what you're fighting on that CMX protections-wise for either this 'generic' spec you never provided ANY proof of AND the damage-specced wolf via a video, which is the point being made here).

I mean, has pure-class-passives Pyrebrand DK with maybe so vat and masters went on your radar yet (for the 'generic' parse)? Pyrebrand was a major complaint and they adjusted by removing crit... now it has the potential to do 300% more damage and NOT negatively affect your other DoTs at random AND pure-class DK is actually just generally competitive with meta subclassing while being the closest fit for your werewolf play style (high sustained pressure especially via DoTs although werewolf still lacks true burst that DK has).

*I tried to spell out all intrinsic meaning in parenthesis so little is up for interpretation

Anyhow, I'm tired of sounding like a broken record my friend so I will keep an eye out for substantiated proof from you or Yandere but right now you just don't have it.

But hey, if they do this on your behalf (b/c no one agreeing with you is citing anything other than your screenshot missing a metric ton of information) then that is yet another example of content creators 'strong arming' their way into changes (for any given game) they (content creators) want with little to no actual evidence through gameplay. Make of that what you will. (I suppose the argument then is if the content creator speaks for the player base as a whole).

Hello, I was the person tanking 10.2k DPS from the screenshots React posted. If you want a video proof I can show you later.

WW is currently the highest DPS spec in the game and can kill practically anybody. I have been letting everyone parse me tonight on my tankiest setup (10.2k sustained HPS over almost 3 minutes). WW is the only spec that can consistently pull off 10k+ DPS to me. Everyone else has been doing at max 8k (DKs with pyrebrand and class masteries).

I would love a video showing prior to setup on both sides plus duel itself! I know it means very little in the grand scheme but I am happy to upvote the video for effort and will even give a quick sub+ comment for proof that I did since this can be a pain for sure.

Please also include the 'generic meta DK build' for comparison if you do this (Pyrebrand DK as you mentioned it is darn-close to the wolf spec you're getting hit by) so that we have something for reference as a base to compare to (I still hate that player skill and latency can cause discrepancy but it should be sufficient for highlighting these potential issues never the less.).

///

If it is that the high-end, full-damage wolf is 10k and this generic 'Pyrebrand' DK build is 8k (I do personally consider this to be the extreme end of acceptable balance though once again devs may not see this/wolf to be that way considering their recent past 1-2 year numeric changes to everything)...

...plus the bulk of damage is coming from pure-class sorcwolf (and if video shows this)... then I could personally, constructively debate having the pure-class, offending sorc damage passives temporarily disabled for wolf for the time being (as upcoming rework is likely to change them drastically anyway and sorc pureclass is definitely awful without them so they are needed and should be unchanged there, with my limited knowledge)...

Also, placing the light attack 'cap' for wolf but only in PvP may reign that in further without toasting the damage (i.e. not completely destroying PvP wolf in favor of slapping on the 'via monsters' tag or simply gutting PvP damage from their current vision as a whole) for PvP although not sure if that (light attack damage being uncapped) is really part of this equation as I'd have to see with my own eyes how everything is playing out on my screen to denote 'a problem' for that one (somewhat just referencing the prior parses if valid and accurate).

Erickson9610 · April 16

If we want Magicka specs to be welcomed in the Werewolf playstyle, I think a few adjustments need to be made:

Hircine's Bounty should cost your lowest maximum resource, while the others should cost your highest maximum resource.
The resource restored by Heavy Attacks in Werewolf form should grant either Magicka or Stamina, depending on which maximum is higher.

This would mean a Stamina spec would restore Stamina from Heavy Attacks, and spend Stamina on every ability except Hircine's Bounty, which costs Magicka.

Conversely, a Magicka spec would restore Magicka from Heavy Attacks, and spend Magicka on every ability except Hircine's Bounty, which costs Stamina.

The issue with the current implementation is that Stamina sustain is now a nonfactor — likely designed that way because Magicka builds are encouraged to play Werewolf now. However, Hircine's Bounty still costs a lot of Magicka, which we still can't restore with Heavy Attacks, so we're encouraged to build into Maximum Magicka since having extra Maximum Stamina is unnecessary.

I believe dynamically changing the cost type of the abilities based on your highest and lowest maximum resource is a better way to encourage Magicka players to play Werewolf while keeping the design of the magicka/stamina split in the toolkit intact.

xylena · April 16

What dps are WW duelers able to do on classes other than Sorc?

Arunei · April 16

I tested WW on a WB (the Kagouti in Deshaan, can't remember the name), and Forgotten Crypts.

Against the WB, I was losing my form every handful of seconds because of how much the WW Ult costs now. It doesn't feel great to constantly be going in and out of your form when you're doing things solo and have no other ways but your own self to keep your Ult up. This should honestly be reworked to maybe take 50 Ult every 10 seconds, or 100 Ult every 20 seconds or something. Too hard to maintain form against enemies with big health pools and nothing around to use Devour on.

We also shouldn't have to sacrifice a whole 5-piece set just to deal with this matter. You 100% should have changed Shapeshifter's Chain from lowering the ability cost of WW Skills and Ult to instead grant Major Heroism (and maybe Minor as well) when transformed. Because right now as it is, it's...kinda redundant and pointless, given how much WW Skills overall have been reduced in cost. It's already the WW Mythic so make it actually useful for WW.

Against the mobs in Forgotten Crypt, including the bosses, everything felt great. Pounce, Claw channel, Gnash basically took out every single boss (testing with RoA, Pillar of Nirn, and Oakensoul).

ZhuJiuyin · April 16

Wuuffyy wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I'd like to correct my previous statement: Due to the poor Chinese translation of the Worgen's skills, I misunderstood some skill effects and mechanics.

After retranslating and understanding the skill effects and mechanics myself, I found that the new Worgen doesn't necessarily need to rely on sets like Eye of the Grasp to gain ultimate points to maintain Worgen form, but it does need to accumulate Fury as quickly as possible to gain Rampage status. The advantage of this is that the Worgen can wear two damage sets, which increases its DPS by at least 10%.

I believe the new Worgen will have a chance to be included in HM Trials in PvE, as it can provide the team with Minor Courage, Feeding Frenzy (6% damage buff), and Major Courage, and can deal approximately 120K damage. Furthermore, due to Ferocious Roar's own synergy, the Worgen can use Roar of Alkosh. Therefore, even if the new Worgen's DPS isn't top-tier, its excellent support capabilities make it a viable option for teams to bring a Worgen to provide buffs.

Moreover, if you use Claw Fur, you only need to press 4+1 buttons to reach 120K, which is very easy to operate.

DPS Werewolf

Support Werewolf

Thank you for this! Good to know there is a little more oomph. Once again using 'claw fury' and it's nice that the parses are close but still under the mark of the 150k or so of beam parse right now. (adding context for others here, hence response).

Additionally, have you considered the limitations with 'claw fury' being melee in certain content? Sure a dummy is still and doesn't throw mechs, but especially on the older trials you have both mechs and consistent movement (which can easily take you out of range) to contend to.

*Worgen haha

I believe mobile combat is actually advantageous for the Werewolf, because the new Pounce and Carnage feels good and allows the werewolf to approach the target faster and more reliably than other classes. In reality, you only needs to pay attention to the Pounce and Carnage's damage over time (DoT) and Hircine's Rage buff; Ferocious Roa only needs to be cast once before each use of Claw Fury. Doesn't need use Gnash . This making the Werewolf's gameplay very simple, allowing them to focus more on following the target and handling mechanics.

Wuuffyy · April 16

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I'd like to correct my previous statement: Due to the poor Chinese translation of the Worgen's skills, I misunderstood some skill effects and mechanics.

After retranslating and understanding the skill effects and mechanics myself, I found that the new Worgen doesn't necessarily need to rely on sets like Eye of the Grasp to gain ultimate points to maintain Worgen form, but it does need to accumulate Fury as quickly as possible to gain Rampage status. The advantage of this is that the Worgen can wear two damage sets, which increases its DPS by at least 10%.

I believe the new Worgen will have a chance to be included in HM Trials in PvE, as it can provide the team with Minor Courage, Feeding Frenzy (6% damage buff), and Major Courage, and can deal approximately 120K damage. Furthermore, due to Ferocious Roar's own synergy, the Worgen can use Roar of Alkosh. Therefore, even if the new Worgen's DPS isn't top-tier, its excellent support capabilities make it a viable option for teams to bring a Worgen to provide buffs.

Moreover, if you use Claw Fur, you only need to press 4+1 buttons to reach 120K, which is very easy to operate.

DPS Werewolf

Support Werewolf

Thank you for this! Good to know there is a little more oomph. Once again using 'claw fury' and it's nice that the parses are close but still under the mark of the 150k or so of beam parse right now. (adding context for others here, hence response).

Additionally, have you considered the limitations with 'claw fury' being melee in certain content? Sure a dummy is still and doesn't throw mechs, but especially on the older trials you have both mechs and consistent movement (which can easily take you out of range) to contend to.

*Worgen haha

I believe mobile combat is actually advantageous for the Werewolf, because the new Pounce and Carnage feels good and allows the werewolf to approach the target faster and more reliably than other classes. In reality, you only needs to pay attention to the Pounce and Carnage's damage over time (DoT) and Hircine's Rage buff; Ferocious Roa only needs to be cast once before each use of Claw Fury. Doesn't need use Gnash . This making the Werewolf's gameplay very simple, allowing them to focus more on following the target and handling mechanics.

Well, I'm wondering in terms of having moving to and from your target so actual DPS in content (CMX parse while doing something like VCR, for example, as an extreme).

Arunei · April 16

After actually skimming through most of the thread and reading a few posts, can we like...not automatically call for nerfs on something that's been in testing for a whole two days? Maybe we could try, I don't know, asking ZOS to change the damage the Skills do vs players like with some other Skills out there.

For one, how many unique builds are there to even test against in the PTS? How can you reliably test if something is 'too strong' if there's only a fraction of the people in the PTS compared to Live and even less of a fraction of those people are doing stuff in Cyro? If you're facing the same handful of people that have no real variation in build, then things are going to come across as skewed. And if we're talking a duel against one person, that's such a miniscule sample size it might as well not even exist.

Second, it's a giant rampaging monster, it stands to reason it's doing to do a decent amount of damage. You know how in PvE the higher-end content it's often recommended to carry a couple of different Gear Sets and Skill Bar loadouts so you can swap depending on the situation? Why not have the same thing for WW? Why not adapt some and have a Skill or two on your backbar to help with Snares or other CC to run out a WW's Ult? Idk about Pack Leader but for Berserker, WW form drops FAST if you don't have things around to constantly munch on. But isn't that whole "adapt evolve overcome" or however it goes meme always what people throw around when others bring up complaints or concerns about something?

Third, I keep seeing people say "oh but a 1bar build shouldn't be able to do as much damage as a 2bar build" and I genuinely don't understand that logic. Yes, 2bar builds take more effort, you need to upkeep this or that more, micromanage more buffs or whatever, but at the same time locking people out of doing actual good damage because they have more fun with something that's easier to run baffles me. A lot of people have any number of reasons why 1bar builds are more accessible, and it just doesn't sit right with me that those people should get told "you're not doing as much work as me you don't get to do as much damage". Plus I mean, you're giving up build variation and any number of things when you go 1bar, you have to pick and choose carefully what you're going to put on your bar. You have less freedom.

WW doing a lot of damage on a 1bar build a) makes it accessible to people who have issues (such as anything related to chronic pain or injuries or slow/bad internet) that make a 2bar build largely impossible, and b) again, it's a rampaging monster brought about by a curse of a God-like being. Of course it's gonna hit hard. WW has been in such an awful state for so long, I'd really like for it not to get neutered again before it hits Live.

All that said, I forgot to mention in my other post but I like the WW markings, including the glow. I can see how other people don't like it, though, and it is a bit of a weird design choice to make them have glowing marks when afaik there's never been any kind of WW in any of the TES games that have glowy marks on them. I'd say jusr make variants of the WW Skill Styles that don't have the glowing marks.

Also, I know the Patch Notes said there's no unique animation for the Prowl mechanic, and there is the big ole eye in the middle of the screen, but...is there really no way to give WWs some sort of crouched animation? Like it doesn't even have to be tied to the Prowl mechanic, just SOME sort of change in posture to indicate implied sneakiness.