U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf

Ataskir · April 15

Perhaps try not to get close to the raging werewolf?

YandereGirlfriend · April 15

A one-bar build should not be doubling-up the sweatiest min-maxed dueling builds. Nothing should be. That degree of overperformance is completely outlandish, it doesn't matter what spec it is.

Sorry, but it is the inconvenient truth.

Also, if you think that React is simply AFK'ing in a Beam and waiting to die... I don't know what to tell you.

React · April 15

Wuuffyy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Is it intended that class mastery passives work while transformed?

There are currently werewolves on the PTS who are doing upwards of 10k PVP DPS by taking advantage of certain class mastery passives while in werewolf form. To be clear - they're currently pushing almost double the highest PVP DPS that the top PVP builds were capable of pushing before, while using only one bar worth of abilities. That is a number nothing has achieved in PVP before, not even the recently reworked DK.

Seems a little insane to me.

Even if you don't slot Class abilities, you are still your Class. Every Class has some passives which don't require Class abilities to be slotted, and it is by design that some Class Mastery passives don't require Class abilities to be slotted, either.

Please don't nerf Pureclass Werewolf (or other builds which do not utilize Class abilities) by requiring Class abilities to be slotted to use any of the Class Mastery passives. We are Pureclassing, just the same as you, except without using our Class abilities — why should we be nerfed for this?

The point remains though that whatever is going on with WW that is enabling it to pull 10k DPS in a duel needs to get the nerf sledgehammer like yesterday.

Something needs adjusting so that it doesn't work as well against players. Like he said, that is like double the output of a sweatlord metabuild.

Beam would do the same??? I don't really citing sources about a beam-equivalent but still, I mean no proof+beam. We can do a bit better than nerf-calling like this.

If you want to 1v1 on PTS I am absolutely happy to provide testimony should you shred me 2 out of 3 in a duel as I have quite a bit of experience with fighting cheese and handling it so I could definitely be a proper judge of how 'uncounterable' you're seeming to claim this beam-equivalent is.

None of the players I'm referring to are using the "beam equivalent" you're referencing.

I'm not sure you understand how much 10k PVP dps actually is. That is a number you can't fight back against. If someone is doing 10k dps to you, there will be zero opportunity to hit them back until you're dead, which will either happen instantly, or if you're extremely tanky with high HPS, will happen the moment you try to hit them back.

For reference, fighting some of the best players on the game running pressure oriented dueling setups on the live server, you'd sometimes see near 7k dps. These are players that are running min-maxed proc/dot setups, never missing a weave, maintaining perfect uptimes on everything, etc. Stuff like rele/pyre or similar. That number is not easy to achieve in the slightest, and surviving a setup doing that much damage to you is already nearly impossible without building specifically to counter it.

On a normal subclass-meta build or reworked DK build without going the full pressure proc/dot route, you could maybe see 5k dps if they're playing very well. Again, not an easy number to maintain on a normal build.

PTS WW is doing 10k DPS with one bar of abilities, using just two damaging skills, to people with cap resists. Surely we aren't going to pretend like this is just fine. Like maybe if it was extremely difficult to achieve there could be some argument in favor of this - but no, you simply light attack and weave two damaging skills. A fraction of the complexity required by a normal PVP build. This is also damage that has extremely little skill based counterplay - it is primarily coming from unavoidable dot & free proc damage via sets and class mastery passives. The only real counterplay is going to be using multiple layers of cleanses in addition to very high HPS (healing per second).

Wuuffyy · April 15

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

A one-bar build should not be doubling-up the sweatiest min-maxed dueling builds. Nothing should be. That degree of overperformance is completely outlandish, it doesn't matter what spec it is.

Sorry, but it is the inconvenient truth.

Also, if you think that React is simply AFK'ing in a Beam and waiting to die... I don't know what to tell you.

This is off topic but can tell it's only the 2 of you posting in this way and you certainly have an Agenda. Is React's nickname 'Yandere' by chance?

On a more serious note, can you provide a video w/ side-by-side demonstrating in-line meta DK and viable werewolf damage build to reflect how these are translating to damage on a player that is both moving to avoid damage and stunning+applying pressure (determining numbers plus counterplay via video) while ensuring that both builds and skill choices are demonstrated without edits/cuts?

Again, the parses aren't anything overglaring and that is your max dps scenario. Werewolf is one bar and this rework was suppose to make it competitive with both subclassing and the class reworks that are and will be very potent in power.

~I'm somewhat reluctant they kept it 1 bar as I knew any power increase would inevitably come with these types of comments (think one-bar PvE pet sorc back in the day and Wolfhunter werewolf also) so I don't completely fault you for having this line of thinking~

As far as I could tell, outside of the 'pack leader' morph which will rid most of your damage increases (you lose major berserk and most importantly the berserker bleed dot which is where the vast majority of your described potential damage would come from via non-claws morph)...

...werewolf healing across the board hasn't come to match your standard soul scribe-able+ vigor output (referring to sustain/viability here) and running all damage should make you even squishier than live therefore I find that what you are describing is nothing more than your standard nuke build in melee range much like a NB with 2-3 burst procs is doing now on live if fully valid (squishy, high damage, susceptible to actual combat).

Ataskir · April 15

Class Masteries add much needed depth to werewolf builds, and I absolutely love that they work while in form.

I’ll take pure classing for these awesome masteries over subclassing any day. It’s a bloody great time!

React · April 15

Wuuffyy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

A one-bar build should not be doubling-up the sweatiest min-maxed dueling builds. Nothing should be. That degree of overperformance is completely outlandish, it doesn't matter what spec it is.

Sorry, but it is the inconvenient truth.

Also, if you think that React is simply AFK'ing in a Beam and waiting to die... I don't know what to tell you.

This is off topic by I can tell it's only the 2 of you posting in this way and you certainly have an Agenda. Is React's nickname 'Yandere' by chance?

Why immediately devolve into baiting? Is that necessary?

Here are some screenshots of the dps in question. Keep in mind when you look at these the 33% weapon damage modifier isn't working at all, so this 10k+ dps is being achieved while missing upwards of 1,000 weapon damage.. Wonder how high it'll go once that is fixed.

Alchimiste1 · April 15

Wuuffyy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Is it intended that class mastery passives work while transformed?

There are currently werewolves on the PTS who are doing upwards of 10k PVP DPS by taking advantage of certain class mastery passives while in werewolf form. To be clear - they're currently pushing almost double the highest PVP DPS that the top PVP builds were capable of pushing before, while using only one bar worth of abilities. That is a number nothing has achieved in PVP before, not even the recently reworked DK.

Seems a little insane to me.

Even if you don't slot Class abilities, you are still your Class. Every Class has some passives which don't require Class abilities to be slotted, and it is by design that some Class Mastery passives don't require Class abilities to be slotted, either.

Please don't nerf Pureclass Werewolf (or other builds which do not utilize Class abilities) by requiring Class abilities to be slotted to use any of the Class Mastery passives. We are Pureclassing, just the same as you, except without using our Class abilities — why should we be nerfed for this?

The point remains though that whatever is going on with WW that is enabling it to pull 10k DPS in a duel needs to get the nerf sledgehammer like yesterday.

Something needs adjusting so that it doesn't work as well against players. Like he said, that is like double the output of a sweatlord metabuild.

Beam would do the same??? I don't really care about citing sources for a beam-equivalent but still, I mean no proof+beam. We can do a bit better than nerf-calling like this.

If you want to 1v1 on PTS I am absolutely happy to provide testimony should you shred me 2 out of 3 in a duel as I have quite a bit of experience with fighting cheese and handling it so I could definitely be a proper judge of how 'uncounterable' you're seeming to claim this beam-equivalent is.

Why would you compare it to beam in pvp ? that things barely hits anything that's moving. You can move two feet away and avoid it lol. In any case WW is doing some absurd dps on pts fights.

coop500 · April 15

Ataskir wrote: »

Perhaps try not to get close to the raging werewolf?

This is what I was worried about. People want to 1 v 1 a werewolf during his rage ultimate in melee range and throw a fit when they lose. Instead of... you know, stunning the crap out of him because he still has no defense against that, using range, draining ultimate, and just disengaging for a bit until his ult is over (not the werewolf form but the ultimate in werewolf form).

You can also 100% dodge the channeled claw attack with just as much ease as you can beam, if not moreso because beam has range and claws do not.

Wuuffyy · April 15

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

A one-bar build should not be doubling-up the sweatiest min-maxed dueling builds. Nothing should be. That degree of overperformance is completely outlandish, it doesn't matter what spec it is.

Sorry, but it is the inconvenient truth.

Also, if you think that React is simply AFK'ing in a Beam and waiting to die... I don't know what to tell you.

This is off topic by I can tell it's only the 2 of you posting in this way and you certainly have an Agenda. Is React's nickname 'Yandere' by chance?

Why immediately devolve into baiting? Is that necessary?

Here are some screenshots of the dps in question. Keep in mind when you look at these the 33% weapon damage modifier isn't working at all, so this 10k+ dps is being achieved while missing upwards of 1,000 weapon damage.. Wonder how high it'll go once that is fixed.

The majority of your damage here is coming from Relequen. This is both telling and furthers my point that this appears to be nothing more than a nuke/damage build. Also, thought I'd simply make a fun jab (referencing above) at the fact your are both in here at the same time, doing the same thing, and upvoting each other's posts (which you are free to do, it's a feedback thread after all).

If the screenshot is meant to be proof I don't believe anything outside of a video is really going to drive your point home. So many concepts I cannot see from your screenshot.

Celas_Dranacea · April 15

The backwards dodge roll animation is epic btw - such an awesome detail and I appreciate it

RGvolterra · April 15

After having a second in depth look into the WW colours , I think we should have skill styles to change the yellow / green yellowish marks on the white werewolf. I’m not suggesting to have it removed as it will also serve a role playing purpose but give us all skill styles to have that mark in and off whenever we need it. I really loved the red marks on the other WW though I’d like to use those yellow and red marks on some of my WW characters and plain white , black and brown colours on my other WW characters.

YandereGirlfriend · April 15

I can sympathize with the PvE WW defenders in this thread. As they don't want their class to get pre-emptively dumpstered. We've all been there.

But they also don't know what these numbers mean in context or how ridonkulous they are in comparison to... basically anything that's ever existed. This is like the PvP equivalent of casually pulling 300k DPS at a time when others are still struggling to crack 200k.

I am not a sweaty duelist but I have a great deal of respect for the judgement as well as the findings of those few that are. Folk like React and Alchemiste have domain mastery that anyone in this thread really should pay attention to. Especially if you do not actually PvP yourself. The above screen-caps speak for themselves. That isn't "a little overperforming". It is in a completely different "stratosphere".

Wuuffyy · April 15

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Is it intended that class mastery passives work while transformed?

There are currently werewolves on the PTS who are doing upwards of 10k PVP DPS by taking advantage of certain class mastery passives while in werewolf form. To be clear - they're currently pushing almost double the highest PVP DPS that the top PVP builds were capable of pushing before, while using only one bar worth of abilities. That is a number nothing has achieved in PVP before, not even the recently reworked DK.

Seems a little insane to me.

Even if you don't slot Class abilities, you are still your Class. Every Class has some passives which don't require Class abilities to be slotted, and it is by design that some Class Mastery passives don't require Class abilities to be slotted, either.

Please don't nerf Pureclass Werewolf (or other builds which do not utilize Class abilities) by requiring Class abilities to be slotted to use any of the Class Mastery passives. We are Pureclassing, just the same as you, except without using our Class abilities — why should we be nerfed for this?

The point remains though that whatever is going on with WW that is enabling it to pull 10k DPS in a duel needs to get the nerf sledgehammer like yesterday.

Something needs adjusting so that it doesn't work as well against players. Like he said, that is like double the output of a sweatlord metabuild.

Beam would do the same??? I don't really care about citing sources for a beam-equivalent but still, I mean no proof+beam. We can do a bit better than nerf-calling like this.

If you want to 1v1 on PTS I am absolutely happy to provide testimony should you shred me 2 out of 3 in a duel as I have quite a bit of experience with fighting cheese and handling it so I could definitely be a proper judge of how 'uncounterable' you're seeming to claim this beam-equivalent is.

Why would you compare it to beam in pvp ? that things barely hits anything that's moving. You can move two feet away and avoid it lol. In any case WW is doing some absurd dps on pts fights.

Maybe a user-ended issue with aim? It is the only skill in the game that you have to truly aim after all.

With this in mind, I have not had issues trolling with my PvE character dueling and hitting my targets. If anything, their ability to walk through me or outside of range to avoid damage (and causing me to severely adjust my aim) would be the prime factor as to why it's not viable outside of killing people in viable combat. This is, as you know, made worse when the beam is melee range.

Wuuffyy · April 15

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I can sympathize with the PvE WW defenders in this thread. As they don't want their class to get pre-emptively dumpstered. We've all been there.

But they also don't know what these numbers mean in context or how ridonkulous they are in comparison to... basically anything that's ever existed. This is like the PvP equivalent of casually pulling 300k DPS at a time when others are still struggling to crack 200k.

I am not a sweaty duelist but I have a great deal of respect for the judgement as well as the findings of those few that are. Folk like React and Alchemiste have domain mastery that anyone in this thread really should pay attention to. Especially if you do not actually PvP yourself. The above screen-caps speak for themselves. That isn't "a little overperforming". It is in a completely different "stratosphere".

I'm all for balance. I don't want this to be a reality and come to light and they nerf x, y, z haphazardly later down the line like they did with wolfhunter (and leave it there).

With that being said, b/c the actual parses I've seen (dummy), the tooltips and additions in-game, and your lack of a video demonstration backing your claim (DK does 5k, werewolf does 10k is your claim, both viable against a moving enemy without extreme scenarios (?) i.e. one off procs/gimmics/ etc. which you'd find reminiscent of a 'duel' or 'nuke/glass cannon build')-

I'm simply not seeing substantive evidence provided by your 'party' (using term loosely of course) that this is inherently more of a problem than reworked DK/subclassing/ and relevant reworks down the road.

Anyways, and in the spirit of keeping the feedback thread feedback-full (and less debate), if you want to provide that evidence then I am happy to oblige in watching and providing my own input there even if it appears blantantly overturned (again, moreso than new DK or subclassing).

Alchimiste1 · April 15

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Is it intended that class mastery passives work while transformed?

There are currently werewolves on the PTS who are doing upwards of 10k PVP DPS by taking advantage of certain class mastery passives while in werewolf form. To be clear - they're currently pushing almost double the highest PVP DPS that the top PVP builds were capable of pushing before, while using only one bar worth of abilities. That is a number nothing has achieved in PVP before, not even the recently reworked DK.

Seems a little insane to me.

Even if you don't slot Class abilities, you are still your Class. Every Class has some passives which don't require Class abilities to be slotted, and it is by design that some Class Mastery passives don't require Class abilities to be slotted, either.

Please don't nerf Pureclass Werewolf (or other builds which do not utilize Class abilities) by requiring Class abilities to be slotted to use any of the Class Mastery passives. We are Pureclassing, just the same as you, except without using our Class abilities — why should we be nerfed for this?

The point remains though that whatever is going on with WW that is enabling it to pull 10k DPS in a duel needs to get the nerf sledgehammer like yesterday.

Something needs adjusting so that it doesn't work as well against players. Like he said, that is like double the output of a sweatlord metabuild.

Beam would do the same??? I don't really care about citing sources for a beam-equivalent but still, I mean no proof+beam. We can do a bit better than nerf-calling like this.

If you want to 1v1 on PTS I am absolutely happy to provide testimony should you shred me 2 out of 3 in a duel as I have quite a bit of experience with fighting cheese and handling it so I could definitely be a proper judge of how 'uncounterable' you're seeming to claim this beam-equivalent is.

Why would you compare it to beam in pvp ? that things barely hits anything that's moving. You can move two feet away and avoid it lol. In any case WW is doing some absurd dps on pts fights.

Maybe an user-ended issue with aim? It is the only skill in the game that you have to truly aim after all.

With this in mind, I have not had issues trolling with my PvE character dueling and hitting my targets. If anything, their ability to walk through me or outside of range to avoid damage (and causing my to severely adjust my aim) would be the prime factor as to why it's not viable outside of killing people in viable combat. This is, as you know, made worse when the beam is melee range.

If you’ve spent any real time in PvP, you’d understand how frustrating it is to hit moving targets with it—and it’s not because players have bad aim. You can be tracking someone perfectly, right on target, and it can still miss because of how its coded. There’s a reason it’s rarely used in PvP, and it’s not due to low damage. Outside of very niche situations—like funneling a group through a corridor—it’s simply unreliable.

My point is that its not a good comparison.

Erickson9610 · April 15

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I can sympathize with the PvE WW defenders in this thread. As they don't want their class to get pre-emptively dumpstered. We've all been there.

That's an unfair assertion that the people defending Werewolf here are PvE players who don't play PvP.

I would like to see the people who have an issue with Werewolf actually play it for once. Compare it to how it feels on Live.

PvP Werewolf has been in a really rough spot for such a long time, so it really needs the help it's getting this patch.

Wuuffyy · April 15

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Is it intended that class mastery passives work while transformed?

There are currently werewolves on the PTS who are doing upwards of 10k PVP DPS by taking advantage of certain class mastery passives while in werewolf form. To be clear - they're currently pushing almost double the highest PVP DPS that the top PVP builds were capable of pushing before, while using only one bar worth of abilities. That is a number nothing has achieved in PVP before, not even the recently reworked DK.

Seems a little insane to me.

Even if you don't slot Class abilities, you are still your Class. Every Class has some passives which don't require Class abilities to be slotted, and it is by design that some Class Mastery passives don't require Class abilities to be slotted, either.

Please don't nerf Pureclass Werewolf (or other builds which do not utilize Class abilities) by requiring Class abilities to be slotted to use any of the Class Mastery passives. We are Pureclassing, just the same as you, except without using our Class abilities — why should we be nerfed for this?

The point remains though that whatever is going on with WW that is enabling it to pull 10k DPS in a duel needs to get the nerf sledgehammer like yesterday.

Something needs adjusting so that it doesn't work as well against players. Like he said, that is like double the output of a sweatlord metabuild.

Beam would do the same??? I don't really care about citing sources for a beam-equivalent but still, I mean no proof+beam. We can do a bit better than nerf-calling like this.

If you want to 1v1 on PTS I am absolutely happy to provide testimony should you shred me 2 out of 3 in a duel as I have quite a bit of experience with fighting cheese and handling it so I could definitely be a proper judge of how 'uncounterable' you're seeming to claim this beam-equivalent is.

Why would you compare it to beam in pvp ? that things barely hits anything that's moving. You can move two feet away and avoid it lol. In any case WW is doing some absurd dps on pts fights.

Maybe an user-ended issue with aim? It is the only skill in the game that you have to truly aim after all.

With this in mind, I have not had issues trolling with my PvE character dueling and hitting my targets. If anything, their ability to walk through me or outside of range to avoid damage (and causing my to severely adjust my aim) would be the prime factor as to why it's not viable outside of killing people in viable combat. This is, as you know, made worse when the beam is melee range.

If you’ve spent any real time in PvP, you’d understand how frustrating it is to hit moving targets with it—and it’s not because players have bad aim. You can be tracking someone perfectly, right on target, and it can still miss because of how its coded. There’s a reason it’s rarely used in PvP, and it’s not due to low damage. Outside of very niche situations—like funneling a group through a corridor—it’s simply unreliable.

My point is that its not a good comparison.

I beg to differ, I think it leaving you wide open and requiring consistent position is the ultimate reasoning that it isn't used seriously in PvP. I've seen it be used in BGs (by PvErs, etc. who I imagine have worse aim than anyone discussing beam in PvP), behind a group, to great effect. All that is, is something covering you so you can do unhindered damage- damage it is already capable of in a perfect world.

>>>QUICK INSERT (edit to avoid additional posts)

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I can sympathize with the PvE WW defenders in this thread. As they don't want their class to get pre-emptively dumpstered. We've all been there.

But they also don't know what these numbers mean in context or how ridonkulous they are in comparison to... basically anything that's ever existed. This is like the PvP equivalent of casually pulling 300k DPS at a time when others are still struggling to crack 200k.

I am not a sweaty duelist but I have a great deal of respect for the judgement as well as the findings of those few that are. Folk like React and Alchemiste have domain mastery that anyone in this thread really should pay attention to. Especially if you do not actually PvP yourself. The above screen-caps speak for themselves. That isn't "a little overperforming". It is in a completely different "stratosphere".

I have no malice towards React Faster/slower and I imagine that if his memory is good and he has no intention of being disingenuous could both recognize my original gamertag from the first ~5 years (give or take) of this game in PvP and tell you that I'm at least a competent PvPer particularly solo and small scale.

With that being said, his testimony is just as good/as great as 'ours' (referring to long time werewolf players for both PvE -do these exist in any serious capacity on live???- and PvP) here (especially Erickson9610 and the player that posted the 100k-120k parse with meta sets) given that we have dedicated ourselves to attempting to succeed with probably the definitively worst spec (maybe non subclass necro prior) that has existed in the game for the last couple of years.

<<<

~with~ that and b/c I wish everyone further ado for the night- I am signing off for the time being!

warm_blanket · April 15

Prowl looks to be the best detection tool in the game by an impressive margin.

100% uptime detect pot for ~800 stam/s

Decimus · April 15

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

A one-bar build should not be doubling-up the sweatiest min-maxed dueling builds. Nothing should be. That degree of overperformance is completely outlandish, it doesn't matter what spec it is.

Sorry, but it is the inconvenient truth.

Also, if you think that React is simply AFK'ing in a Beam and waiting to die... I don't know what to tell you.

This is off topic by I can tell it's only the 2 of you posting in this way and you certainly have an Agenda. Is React's nickname 'Yandere' by chance?

Why immediately devolve into baiting? Is that necessary?

Here are some screenshots of the dps in question. Keep in mind when you look at these the 33% weapon damage modifier isn't working at all, so this 10k+ dps is being achieved while missing upwards of 1,000 weapon damage.. Wonder how high it'll go once that is fixed.

Haven't tested werewolf enough yet to comment on the balance, but what bothers me the most here is that Relequen is still doing 20% damage...

Blackrim · April 15

React wrote: »

Is it intended that class mastery passives work while transformed?

There are currently werewolves on the PTS who are doing upwards of 10k PVP DPS by taking advantage of certain class mastery passives while in werewolf form. To be clear - they're currently pushing almost double the highest PVP DPS that the top PVP builds were capable of pushing before, while using only one bar worth of abilities. That is a number nothing has achieved in PVP before, not even the recently reworked DK.

Seems a little insane to me.

I disagree,

I’ve seen PvP DPS of 15-30k to start so it’s a fallacy to state it’s never been done or seen before. Frankly with what there is in Cyrodiil right now with ball groups and DKs it’s welcoming to see a nice change to challenge those play styles.

Additionally, I’d like to discuss the PvE parse you posted earlier and your request for a nerf. While the damage is very high on the parse it won’t be able to compete with beamers in most trials. vAS +2 is an example. Good beam players will out Dps anything that does not have long range capabilities.

Overall, the wolf is in a good spot and th

Wup_sa · April 15

Blackrim wrote: »

React wrote: »

Is it intended that class mastery passives work while transformed?

There are currently werewolves on the PTS who are doing upwards of 10k PVP DPS by taking advantage of certain class mastery passives while in werewolf form. To be clear - they're currently pushing almost double the highest PVP DPS that the top PVP builds were capable of pushing before, while using only one bar worth of abilities. That is a number nothing has achieved in PVP before, not even the recently reworked DK.

Seems a little insane to me.

I disagree,

I’ve seen PvP DPS of 15-30k to start so it’s a fallacy to state it’s never been done or seen before. Frankly with what there is in Cyrodiil right now with ball groups and DKs it’s welcoming to see a nice change to challenge those play styles.

Additionally, I’d like to discuss the PvE parse you posted earlier and your request for a nerf. While the damage is very high on the parse it won’t be able to compete with beamers in most trials. vAS +2 is an example. Good beam players will out Dps anything that does not have long range capabilities.

Overall, the wolf is in a good spot and th

You are also leaving out the fact that all WW healing/defense scales of hp. You are a +40k hp monster with infinite sustain and the strongest pressure. Thats very unhealthy for pvp.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 15

Blackrim wrote: »

React wrote: »

Is it intended that class mastery passives work while transformed?

There are currently werewolves on the PTS who are doing upwards of 10k PVP DPS by taking advantage of certain class mastery passives while in werewolf form. To be clear - they're currently pushing almost double the highest PVP DPS that the top PVP builds were capable of pushing before, while using only one bar worth of abilities. That is a number nothing has achieved in PVP before, not even the recently reworked DK.

Seems a little insane to me.

I disagree,

I’ve seen PvP DPS of 15-30k to start so it’s a fallacy to state it’s never been done or seen before. Frankly with what there is in Cyrodiil right now with ball groups and DKs it’s welcoming to see a nice change to challenge those play styles.

Additionally, I’d like to discuss the PvE parse you posted earlier and your request for a nerf. While the damage is very high on the parse it won’t be able to compete with beamers in most trials. vAS +2 is an example. Good beam players will out Dps anything that does not have long range capabilities.

Overall, the wolf is in a good spot and th

Sustained in a 1v1? No you haven't.

Spike damage? Sure. That's not DPS, that's burst.

From a group? Absolutely possible.

No one is hitting 15k to 30k sustained dps on a player. That's just not possible in the current state of the game.

Waillyam23 · April 15

Do the refreshed abilities correctly portray the mechanics of the ability?
Yes
Are there any key Werewolf changes that you enjoyed?
1) Diversity of playstyles
High APM "Bloody Gnash" spam:

-> good single target and ok aoe ("Bloodclaws" spam)
-> very good Hemmorhaging uptime
-> self heal with "Bloodclaws"
-> 125k dps on dummy
Low APM "Claw Fury" spam:

-> good single target and AOE
-> Major breach
-> self heal with "Rip and Tear"
-> 123k dps on dummy
Tank:

-> major breach, protection, vitality, cowardice, maim
-> minor breach (with sundered), courage
-> good resist and healing
-> no interesting spell to spend blood hunger stacks on and neither morph of pounce is rewarding
2) Easy to keep Werewolf form (Eye of the grasp is NOT NEEDED even in solo)
Graph of the ultimate percent vs dummy with applications of Rampage (the werewolf ultimate):

-> the ultimate cost is removed by Rampage, depending on the timing it removes one or two ticks of -80 ultimates per application, which is enough to sustain with the base ult gen of 3/s
Are there any key Werewolf changes that did not feel great?
1) Tooltips in languages other than english do not make comprehensible sentences and are missing information.

coop500 · April 15

Devs, please please please make any nerfs you do for PvP actually only PvP. As you can see in the parses above, werewolf is just finally competitive, good and acceptable in PvE, do not gut this, do not ruin class uniqueness, do not ruin fun.

React · April 15

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

A one-bar build should not be doubling-up the sweatiest min-maxed dueling builds. Nothing should be. That degree of overperformance is completely outlandish, it doesn't matter what spec it is.

Sorry, but it is the inconvenient truth.

Also, if you think that React is simply AFK'ing in a Beam and waiting to die... I don't know what to tell you.

This is off topic by I can tell it's only the 2 of you posting in this way and you certainly have an Agenda. Is React's nickname 'Yandere' by chance?

Why immediately devolve into baiting? Is that necessary?

Here are some screenshots of the dps in question. Keep in mind when you look at these the 33% weapon damage modifier isn't working at all, so this 10k+ dps is being achieved while missing upwards of 1,000 weapon damage.. Wonder how high it'll go once that is fixed.

The majority of your damage here is coming from Relequen. This is both telling and furthers my point that this appears to be nothing more than a nuke/damage build. Also, thought I'd simply make a fun jab (referencing above) at the fact your are both in here at the same time, doing the same thing, and upvoting each other's posts (which you are free to do, it's a feedback thread after all).

If the screenshot is meant to be proof I don't believe anything outside of a video is really going to drive your point home. So many concepts I cannot see from your screenshot.

The "majority"? Rele is making up 20% there. Remove that, and you're left with 8k dps - still higher than anything else in the game currently with just one bar of abilities. Being able to push that number with the level of simplicity that is WW is just indefensible.

Blackrim wrote: »

React wrote: »

Is it intended that class mastery passives work while transformed?

There are currently werewolves on the PTS who are doing upwards of 10k PVP DPS by taking advantage of certain class mastery passives while in werewolf form. To be clear - they're currently pushing almost double the highest PVP DPS that the top PVP builds were capable of pushing before, while using only one bar worth of abilities. That is a number nothing has achieved in PVP before, not even the recently reworked DK.

Seems a little insane to me.

I disagree,

I’ve seen PvP DPS of 15-30k to start so it’s a fallacy to state it’s never been done or seen before. Frankly with what there is in Cyrodiil right now with ball groups and DKs it’s welcoming to see a nice change to challenge those play styles.

Additionally, I’d like to discuss the PvE parse you posted earlier and your request for a nerf. While the damage is very high on the parse it won’t be able to compete with beamers in most trials. vAS +2 is an example. Good beam players will out Dps anything that does not have long range capabilities.

Overall, the wolf is in a good spot and th

What PVE parse did I post? Those screenshots I posted are dps to a player, not a pve mob. I am not concerned at all about how WW is in PVE, I am only talking about how it is currently overperforming in PVP.

You're absolutely incorrect about "15-30k dps" being a thing that exists in pvp. You can take that kind of dps across a couple seconds as burst damage, but not sustained. One of the pictures I shared is 10k dps across 1.5 minutes. Nothing has ever come close to that before.

Wuuffyy · April 15

The "majority"? Rele is making up 20% there. Remove that, and you're left with 8k dps - still higher than anything else in the game currently with just one bar of abilities. Being able to push that number with the level of simplicity that is WW is just indefensible.

Seemed pretty obvious there that I meant the biggest hitter of your focused damage (i.e. top of your parse) comes from a proc set completely removed from werewolf.

I've yet to see any proof that this is a problem from you. You come in here with a wolf I assume is running every damage morph possible, Rele (which is literally doing 20% in your 'insane' player parse), and no video proof or even proof of another spec running in-line, dueling meta dmg bs and keep saying 'but everything else does this number... and this does this number'.

I'm asking for proof. You want awareness about an issue like this, you create a video. You have a YT channel right so this shouldn't be a difficult ask for you by any means~

Give me a side by side proving you're running the same build on 2 'meta' (subclass/dk and wolf) characters and I want to see the results based on that. Werewolf is NOT running 40k health with all of the damage morphs as the healing howl alone will cause them to lose damage and actually received a healing nerf (albeit some potency returned via major vitality). The damage heal is some number UNDER a breath of life... and you still don't have any vigor equivalent or cross healing so any damage increase (which we knew was coming) would be under check with you running like that and being hyper-squishy.

I mean fluff, your spammable is only pulling 5.2k (2.8k 1st tick, 2.4k 2nd tick) average based on whatever your own parse is showing. Have I lost it, is this considered out of control damage? I can literally incap (70 ult) a max resist player and hit them for 6-8k surprise attacks on crit with ease running rally/essence. If you're worried about spammable damage, don't, people can both return damage back to you and stun you also.

CrimsonXReaper · April 15

100 ult drain is too much for berserker form to maintain, not ideal for battlegrounds where no one is dying or where feeding would create bad positioning, please change to 35-50, there is no need for werewolf to lose their form anymore people build for werewolf form not for human form it's really frustrating losing form in battleground and now it looks just worse.

Wuuffyy · April 15

I'm pulling 45k on the 6m dummy to try on my end to translate proof (or lack there of) for overbearing damage running full damage sets slated for PvP (i.e. not a dueling set like rele) with the standard tri-glyphs and mag recovery for werewolf heal (PTS is dead rn I cannot find anyone to duel)

~build~

I have on fully golded monomyth, Yandir's might (just heavy attack once every 15 seconds for 680 BUFFABLE wep/spell), Aerie's cry (literally a damage proc set that gives me more damage than essence thief; 'free' minor toughness from skill line), 1 pc magma, 1 pc monomyth (it's bugged if you die in wolf so this was from a fresh transformation) , flame/poison glyphs with nirnhoned + sharpened, and Orzorga's for food.

Disclaimer: I know there is still more of a focus for having stam recovery on this build which I could certainly reduce to have more straight stats with sustain changes (this would NOT net me MORE than 3k additional on this parse I consider this inconsequential for the message I am trying to relay.

~parse method (skills roto)

focused on keeping any and every skill and buff up only when needed (refresh at last second) while making sure to use spammable ANY opportunity I have the chance outside of those parameters.

///

For reference, I believe a meta PvE DPS is 60-70k+... which means a build like that would do MORE sustained damage in PvP than wolf since the claim is 'this is the highest you've ever seen'.

So the only complaint you must have here is that this 45k is being done on one bar... and I don't know what you're really wanting here as this is the dev's choice and it desperately needed this rework (and I'm going to be real in saying that... it took 5-10 years to get this). If they nerf numbers into oblivion for PTS alone, especially based on testimony, it will most likely never compete with subclassing and the ilk, and never be viable again).

*another disclaimer, 'burden of proof' is not on me (i.e. video to demonstrate my claim) since 100k parse with meta sets exists in same form (100k being good but only being up to 75% of top-end dps with beam, etc.) : )

Techwolf_Lupindo · April 15

luckiestlycan wrote: »

- Stop killing my Puppies T-T: Please ZoS, it's been a decade of pupper slaughter, can we pretty please transform back from our Pack Leader Werewolf form and not have our two Direwolves die on us? Like, I'm happy to sacrifice the extra in human form Stamina recovery if we can keep the puppers in human form, just something to spare them from the instantaneous death beams XD

We need to start up a campaign: "Stop Killing Puppies!"

autocookies · April 15

As a strictly PvE player who might one day try PvP, I sincerely hope werewolf is not nerfed into the ground again. As long as ultimate in werewolf form is much more sustainable, I will be very excited to run this in Infinite Archive, random dungeons, and less sweaty trials. Werewolf in PvE right now looks acceptable in my opinion (Assuming in form ult gen is sustainable)