shadoza wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

People wanting questing to be both immersive and to maintain their functionality does not undermine the idea that they want them to be immersive. I also don't think most people will quit the game because of hard modes work the same as every other vet difficulty in the game as well how hard modes generally work across the entire industry. Some people might get upset but that's their own emotions and has nothing to do with something that is bog standard game design.

This is the one and only game I have ever played where the idea that people should be worse off for wanting to play a higher difficulty has been suggested unironically. In every other game I have played getting more stuff for doing more stuff is a given.

I'm glad the devs decided not to punish us for wanting a more immersive story experience.

So instead, the devs decided to punish those that don't do group /guild play. They said they did not want to divide the player base, but this difficulty toggle is doing just that. Players won't quit the game because of a hard mode. Players will migrate away from the game (quit casually) because that is one more tool for the elite and nothing for the new and repeat players. Players do get tired of being second class consumers. They will move on to a title where they feel heard and related to. Those that take the stance of too bad for the little guys will need to dig a little deeper into their own pockets because the 'little guys' will be taking their money with them.
I have been there; done that so many times that I can see what is coming. I can almost gauge how hard the fall will be.

We have already decided what we are going to do if the changes do not benefit the new and repeat players. What you do is on you.

This argument doesn't sit well with me as I have many, many friends who are new to MMOs that found ESO's overland way too easy. Your opinion isn't that of the masses just like mine probably isn't. This doesn't punish anybody. This is an optional difficulty increase for those that want it.

The game is horizontal progression and has an unbelieveable amount of content for new and repeat players. I just don't see logically where you're drawing these conclusions. "Oh gosh, they're adding a hard mode for those that want it. They hate new players." That doesn't make sense at all? If they were increasing difficulty across the board on a mandatory level, I'd agree 100%.

Your friends are like you so what you are reporting is from an echo-chamber environment.
The reason you cannot understand my PoV is because it is not your own.

I think most players do not want to spend time on the internet trying to figure out how to use their skills / build so they don't die. Any game that even suggests that is a necessity, is doomed. I think the average player (the majority of players) gets on the game to have fun. The fun is defined by their own PoV and their own experiences. It might be RPG, it might be casual story mode, it might be playing at being a mega hero. What ever their idea of fun is, should be addressed not just a Reddit echo-chamber voice. There are many players that do not go to social media or threads who also want to enjoy the game.

Perhaps you cannot see the logic in my conclusions is because you are being dismissive regarding the opinions of others.

Well, the reason I bring up learning about your class, which more people like to do than you think, is because there are many that find the veteran difficult in say, dungeons, to be very difficult and the reason is because there's no onboarding to learn about the game and combat up to that point. Only when you get 1 shot in these dungeons or perform poorly and have a bad time do you question, "why?" It'd be better if this happened naturally through solo gameplay in overland while questing than rudely with some toxic players in a dungeon is what I'm getting at.

I also feel as if you're being incredibly hostile over me not understanding you. Your idea of everyone with an opinion different than you coming from an echo chamber is equally dismissive. I welcome your opinion and am just trying to understand it. Do you find when you boot up any story-driven game that has several difficulty mode selections to be against new players? Or do you find that to be welcoming to many kinds of players (i.e. those who want to chill and relax, those who want to be challenged, those who want something in the middle)?

Alaztor91 wrote: »

I don't see how adding an optional difficulty mode for Overland is a bad change, considering that it is more than half of the entire game. ZOS even said that it won't be some sort of separate ''Vet Overland Instance'', so the playerbase won't be fragmented into different layers.

Is wanting an optional mode that is not balanced around lvl3 white gear, no food, no set, no cp characters seriously considered a toxic and elitist request?

Absolutely noone thinks asking for more difficult overland is toxic or elitist, atleast I do not. Honestly, I think it is a fair request from players and I may even use it if it feels good. Depending on how ZOS implements this feature.

With my posts I just want to make sure all angles are considered and that the feature implementation will be fair to all players, even to those not using the feature.

Question: Are other roles than DD taken into account with increased overland difficulty? Missing out on being able to use increased difficulty overland(and any possible rewards it may grant) due to being specced a tank or healer should not happen, even if they are only specced healer/tank while queueing for groupcontent.

PS: I am glad ZOS has already stated separate veteran instances will not happen.

Sarannah wrote: »

Question: Are other roles than DD taken into account with increased overland difficulty? Missing out on being able to use increased difficulty overland(and any possible rewards it may grant) due to being specced a tank or healer should not happen, even if they are only specced healer/tank while queueing for groupcontent.

Yes, because this is an optional feature. If you want to use it, use it. If you don't, don't. The rewards are not going to blow anyone's mind or give anyone a significant advantage because the devs know that the exact thing you're doing right now will happen. It's only going to be enough to justify increasing difficulty for those who wanted it but wouldn't otherwise consider it if they weren't compensated in-kind.

And to be clear: I have a tank, I have a healer. I also have many, many ways to change their build for a more challenging setting. I personally welcome this new environment because it will allow me to test these characters in new ways.

Cooperharley wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

People wanting questing to be both immersive and to maintain their functionality does not undermine the idea that they want them to be immersive. I also don't think most people will quit the game because of hard modes work the same as every other vet difficulty in the game as well how hard modes generally work across the entire industry. Some people might get upset but that's their own emotions and has nothing to do with something that is bog standard game design.

This is the one and only game I have ever played where the idea that people should be worse off for wanting to play a higher difficulty has been suggested unironically. In every other game I have played getting more stuff for doing more stuff is a given.

I'm glad the devs decided not to punish us for wanting a more immersive story experience.

So instead, the devs decided to punish those that don't do group /guild play. They said they did not want to divide the player base, but this difficulty toggle is doing just that. Players won't quit the game because of a hard mode. Players will migrate away from the game (quit casually) because that is one more tool for the elite and nothing for the new and repeat players. Players do get tired of being second class consumers. They will move on to a title where they feel heard and related to. Those that take the stance of too bad for the little guys will need to dig a little deeper into their own pockets because the 'little guys' will be taking their money with them.
I have been there; done that so many times that I can see what is coming. I can almost gauge how hard the fall will be.

We have already decided what we are going to do if the changes do not benefit the new and repeat players. What you do is on you.

This argument doesn't sit well with me as I have many, many friends who are new to MMOs that found ESO's overland way too easy. Your opinion isn't that of the masses just like mine probably isn't. This doesn't punish anybody. This is an optional difficulty increase for those that want it.

The game is horizontal progression and has an unbelieveable amount of content for new and repeat players. I just don't see logically where you're drawing these conclusions. "Oh gosh, they're adding a hard mode for those that want it. They hate new players." That doesn't make sense at all? If they were increasing difficulty across the board on a mandatory level, I'd agree 100%.

Your friends are like you so what you are reporting is from an echo-chamber environment.
The reason you cannot understand my PoV is because it is not your own.

I think most players do not want to spend time on the internet trying to figure out how to use their skills / build so they don't die. Any game that even suggests that is a necessity, is doomed. I think the average player (the majority of players) gets on the game to have fun. The fun is defined by their own PoV and their own experiences. It might be RPG, it might be casual story mode, it might be playing at being a mega hero. What ever their idea of fun is, should be addressed not just a Reddit echo-chamber voice. There are many players that do not go to social media or threads who also want to enjoy the game.

Perhaps you cannot see the logic in my conclusions is because you are being dismissive regarding the opinions of others.

Well, the reason I bring up learning about your class, which more people like to do than you think, is because there are many that find the veteran difficult in say, dungeons, to be very difficult and the reason is because there's no onboarding to learn about the game and combat up to that point. Only when you get 1 shot in these dungeons or perform poorly and have a bad time do you question, "why?" It'd be better if this happened naturally through solo gameplay in overland while questing than rudely with some toxic players in a dungeon is what I'm getting at.

I also feel as if you're being incredibly hostile over me not understanding you. Your idea of everyone with an opinion different than you coming from an echo chamber is equally dismissive. I welcome your opinion and am just trying to understand it. Do you find when you boot up any story-driven game that has several difficulty mode selections to be against new players? Or do you find that to be welcoming to many kinds of players (i.e. those who want to chill and relax, those who want to be challenged, those who want something in the middle)?

Cooperharley wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

People wanting questing to be both immersive and to maintain their functionality does not undermine the idea that they want them to be immersive. I also don't think most people will quit the game because of hard modes work the same as every other vet difficulty in the game as well how hard modes generally work across the entire industry. Some people might get upset but that's their own emotions and has nothing to do with something that is bog standard game design.

This is the one and only game I have ever played where the idea that people should be worse off for wanting to play a higher difficulty has been suggested unironically. In every other game I have played getting more stuff for doing more stuff is a given.

I'm glad the devs decided not to punish us for wanting a more immersive story experience.

So instead, the devs decided to punish those that don't do group /guild play. They said they did not want to divide the player base, but this difficulty toggle is doing just that. Players won't quit the game because of a hard mode. Players will migrate away from the game (quit casually) because that is one more tool for the elite and nothing for the new and repeat players. Players do get tired of being second class consumers. They will move on to a title where they feel heard and related to. Those that take the stance of too bad for the little guys will need to dig a little deeper into their own pockets because the 'little guys' will be taking their money with them.
I have been there; done that so many times that I can see what is coming. I can almost gauge how hard the fall will be.

We have already decided what we are going to do if the changes do not benefit the new and repeat players. What you do is on you.

This argument doesn't sit well with me as I have many, many friends who are new to MMOs that found ESO's overland way too easy. Your opinion isn't that of the masses just like mine probably isn't. This doesn't punish anybody. This is an optional difficulty increase for those that want it.

The game is horizontal progression and has an unbelieveable amount of content for new and repeat players. I just don't see logically where you're drawing these conclusions. "Oh gosh, they're adding a hard mode for those that want it. They hate new players." That doesn't make sense at all? If they were increasing difficulty across the board on a mandatory level, I'd agree 100%.

Your friends are like you so what you are reporting is from an echo-chamber environment.
The reason you cannot understand my PoV is because it is not your own.

I think most players do not want to spend time on the internet trying to figure out how to use their skills / build so they don't die. Any game that even suggests that is a necessity, is doomed. I think the average player (the majority of players) gets on the game to have fun. The fun is defined by their own PoV and their own experiences. It might be RPG, it might be casual story mode, it might be playing at being a mega hero. What ever their idea of fun is, should be addressed not just a Reddit echo-chamber voice. There are many players that do not go to social media or threads who also want to enjoy the game.

Perhaps you cannot see the logic in my conclusions is because you are being dismissive regarding the opinions of others.

Well, the reason I bring up learning about your class, which more people like to do than you think, is because there are many that find the veteran difficult in say, dungeons, to be very difficult and the reason is because there's no onboarding to learn about the game and combat up to that point. Only when you get 1 shot in these dungeons or perform poorly and have a bad time do you question, "why?" It'd be better if this happened naturally through solo gameplay in overland while questing than rudely with some toxic players in a dungeon is what I'm getting at.

I also feel as if you're being incredibly hostile over me not understanding you. Your idea of everyone with an opinion different than you coming from an echo chamber is equally dismissive. I welcome your opinion and am just trying to understand it. Do you find when you boot up any story-driven game that has several difficulty mode selections to be against new players? Or do you find that to be welcoming to many kinds of players (i.e. those who want to chill and relax, those who want to be challenged, those who want something in the middle)?

Where is the hostility? Because my opinion is not yours?
When people group, they do so because they have like minds (beliefs.) When the only people you listen to are those in your own circle or group, you are indeed in an echo chamber.
Everyone in my group agree (echo chamber style) that we are tired of financially supporting advancements in the game that do not interests us. We decided we do not control the game, therefore, we will simply pull our financial support and put our money where it will work for us.

What MMO allows a new player to decided a difficulty level?
I have only noticed single player games offering difficulty settings.

shadoza wrote: »

I am 100% sure one could not and that statement is stale.
If add-ons did not make the content easier, players wouldn't use them.
I just played a level 10 character and got rolled by the final attack of a soul reaper. The attacks were just higher than my health and recovery rates.
When one works in an echo-chamber, one voice sounds like a thousand. I believe it is a small percentage of players that are demanding more difficulty in overland. I stand on my statement: The folks that are demanding overland difficult have not shown the disciple to increase difficult where they can do it easier. If they did, they would use overland gear and empty their CP tray of combat assistance. They won't do it. They make excuses instead. This habit is not going to change with a new difficulty option. That feature is a waste of development time.

If a level 10 player encounters something that they cannot beat just yet (I'm not talking about DLC world bosses here), all they need to do is level up and pick up several better pieces of gear in the process. Even a new player stays at level 10 for such a short period of time, that retreating and coming back later should not be too time consuming. If I remember correctly even one of the game screens says something along these lines (I do not remember exact text unfortunately).

The whole overland should not be designed around level 10s because leveling a toon to level 50 (and even to 160) takes such a short time that crafting any decent permanent gear is generally a waste of resources until 160.

Edit: messed up quotes

shadoza wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

I am 100% sure one could not and that statement is stale.
If add-ons did not make the content easier, players wouldn't use them.
I just played a level 10 character and got rolled by the final attack of a soul reaper. The attacks were just higher than my health and recovery rates.
When one works in an echo-chamber, one voice sounds like a thousand. I believe it is a small percentage of players that are demanding more difficulty in overland. I stand on my statement: The folks that are demanding overland difficult have not shown the disciple to increase difficult where they can do it easier. If they did, they would use overland gear and empty their CP tray of combat assistance. They won't do it. They make excuses instead. This habit is not going to change with a new difficulty option. That feature is a waste of development time.

If a level 10 player encounters something that they cannot beat just yet (I'm not talking about DLC world bosses here), all they need to do is level up and pick up several better pieces of gear in the process. Even a new player stays at level 10 for such a short period of time, that retreating and coming back later should not be too time consuming. If I remember correctly even one of the game screens says something along these lines (I do not remember exact text unfortunately).

The whole overland should not be designed around level 10s because leveling a toon to level 50 (and even to 160) takes such a short time that crafting any decent permanent gear is generally a waste of resources until 160.

Edit: messed up quotes

You missed the point of my statement.

I do not think so. You keep bringing examples of what low level players cannot do as a proof of that they somehow are going to be penalized by the optional feature of harder overland.

Please note that I'm not one of the players that have been requesting this feature (even though I've been lately eyerolling at the ease of the quest line bosses). I just think that as long as it's a) not mandatory and b) not going to replace new areas to explore, it could be good for the game.