Elephant in the Room - The End-Game PVP Culture is Declining. How Can ZOS Mitigate This?

i11ionward · November 21

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I do want to add though, the current WardenBladeX build (where X is just insert 3rd skill line of choice) that plagues PvP needs addressing. Solving Charm will fix most of the warden aspect of this build, but the elephant in the room with this build is the Assassination skill line. This skill line needs massive nerfs to it's insane crit chance bonuses (that makes it a mandatory skill line for DPS in both PvE and PvP) and the removal of firing multiple bow procs back to back that are basically ultimate level abilities, but without the long build up time (30s+) that ultimates are supposed to have.

Honestly, while the Assassination skill line shows up in almost every build and can feel repetitive or annoying, I actually like the amount of damage it brings. For the first time in years, I’m seeing some of the BG veterans — the ones who used to tank five people and still counterkill — actually having a hard time surviving against 2–3 opponents. That’s a healthy shift, in my opinion.

As long as healing stays as overtuned as it currently is, I really don’t think the Assassination line needs damage nerfs. If anything, I’d rather see more skill lines brought up to its level, instead of dragging this one down.

And also, @Turtle_Bot, I’m assuming you’re an experienced player — you’ve definitely noticed that, against mid- to high-skill players, maybe 1 out of 4 bow procs actually lands for meaningful damage. Most people just dodge or block them. Looking at bow procs against below-average players doesn’t make sense either, because those players die with or without them. So to me, the whole “bow proc problem” is pretty overblown.

AD_ThisIsTheWay · November 21

i11ionward wrote: »

Honestly, while the Assassination skill line shows up in almost every build and can feel repetitive or annoying, I actually like the amount of damage it brings. For the first time in years, I’m seeing some of the BG veterans — the ones who used to tank five people and still counterkill — actually having a hard time surviving against 2–3 opponents. That’s a healthy shift, in my opinion.

@i11ionward I really appreciate and respect your optimistic perspective here. We should ABSOLUTELY be speaking highly about the positive things subclassing has done for the meta. It isn't all bad. The changes have definitely made the game refreshing.

Turtle_Bot · November 22

i11ionward wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I do want to add though, the current WardenBladeX build (where X is just insert 3rd skill line of choice) that plagues PvP needs addressing. Solving Charm will fix most of the warden aspect of this build, but the elephant in the room with this build is the Assassination skill line. This skill line needs massive nerfs to it's insane crit chance bonuses (that makes it a mandatory skill line for DPS in both PvE and PvP) and the removal of firing multiple bow procs back to back that are basically ultimate level abilities, but without the long build up time (30s+) that ultimates are supposed to have.

Honestly, while the Assassination skill line shows up in almost every build and can feel repetitive or annoying, I actually like the amount of damage it brings. For the first time in years, I’m seeing some of the BG veterans — the ones who used to tank five people and still counterkill — actually having a hard time surviving against 2–3 opponents. That’s a healthy shift, in my opinion.

As long as healing stays as overtuned as it currently is, I really don’t think the Assassination line needs damage nerfs. If anything, I’d rather see more skill lines brought up to its level, instead of dragging this one down.

And also, @Turtle_Bot, I’m assuming you’re an experienced player — you’ve definitely noticed that, against mid- to high-skill players, maybe 1 out of 4 bow procs actually lands for meaningful damage. Most people just dodge or block them. Looking at bow procs against below-average players doesn’t make sense either, because those players die with or without them. So to me, the whole “bow proc problem” is pretty overblown.

@i11ionward One of the issues I have with the Assassination line as a whole, is that it's stale, but that's not the only issue I have with the line.

Being Stale:

In PvP, we have seen NBs everywhere, ever since the class got completely overhauled (giga-buffed) in U35, with the only (very brief) reprieve being during U41 when Hardened Ward got mega buffed (which has since been nerfed to even weaker than pre-U41). PvE used to be a nice respite from seeing NB (assassination) everywhere, but since sub-classing was introduced we have also been seeing NB everywhere in PvE as well (well alongside beam, but it's still NB/Assassination).

It's time for NB to face the same nerf hammer that the rest of the classes have been forced to cycle through over the past 5 years to finally cycle that class out of the meta and bring some fresh playstyles into the game (DoTs/Pressure, Bash, Brawlers, etc.), especially for PvP, and a big part of that is adjusting Assassination and Spec Bow in particular.

Other issues with Assassination:

People complained during the U46 PTS about Storm Calling being too strong for having a mix of Offense and Defense power in the one skill line, but Assassination has that same mix of power, turned up to the extreme.

Assassination is significantly stronger that Storm Calling because it not only buffs damage in a way that no other skill line can (via crit chance, crit damage and massive unique damage done/taken modifiers), but it also buffs the already overpowered healing on top of this. It is so strong compared to other mixed lines because healing gets buffed even more than damage does by those same crit stats because there's no healing mitigation stat in this game like there is armor/percent bonuses/blocking for damage taken. This is why Healthy Offering seemed so overpowered pre-U46 despite being a reskinned Honor the Dead on paper, it was being buffed like crazy by the crit passives from Assassination that no other class had access to within their skill lines.

There's a reason crit chance outside of the named buffs are supposed to be super hard to get in ESO and even more so in PvP. This stat is the strongest stat in the game and it is that strong for both damage and healing, the later of which does not need any such buffs.

As for Spec bow in particular:

It's the combination of everything that ability has.
- It has the highest base and scaling co-efficient in the entire game.
- It gets to stack up multiple procs to fire off back to back to back and the stacks last indefinitely (in PvE) and for a long enough duration in PvP, meaning there's no thought/skill involved in building up at the right time, just build and hold for the combo.
- It gets one of the best named buffs in the game, that being Major Prophecy/Savagery, that buffs both healing and damage significantly, just for slotting it on either bar, not even having to use it.
The above would be more than strong enough of an ability on its own, but this ability also gets a free burst heal on-top of everything listed above.

Spec bow is quite literally the 1 button do everything ability that players were claiming ward used to be. To give an example, I have been using Spec Bow as my sole burst heal in PvE, no need for another heal, barely any need for pale order either when playing solo due to how frequently bow can be cast and how much it heals for on top of how much damage it does meaning I don't need to waste a damage GCD or bar slot on a burst Heal like I would if not using Spec bow. This is absurd power for a single ability to have and is only really matched (in PvE) by Arc Beam, which is also getting a lot of complaints about it because it's so strong for DPS while also providing very strong defensive utility on top of that massive damage.

While I appreciate the higher damage of recent patches, there are some abilities and skill lines that take even this aspect too far or do so in ways that also unintentionally buff healing on top of this. This is why I have issues with Assassination line as a whole and Spec Bow in particular and it is why we are seeing this line on nearly every single build across both PvE and PvP. Other lines need bringing up, sure, but not to the level of Assassination/Spec Bow.

Imo, Aedric Spear is about the level that I would like to see DPS lines be brought up to and Assassination nerfed down to, where they provide strong DPS options, and some unique defensive options for the characters using those lines for different playstyles, but nothing that is so universally strong/universally buffs aspects across multiple roles in the game as crit chance.

We also need to remember that Spec Bow was originally balanced around never having access to other delayed burst to stack with it, but sub-classing has completely eliminated this designed balance factor to Spec Bow, while ZOS failed to rework Spec bow to account for losing this balance aspect when they introduced sub-classing.

There's a lot ZOS can do to balance Spec bow and Assassination while keeping damage high.

- Make the crit passives/secondary effects only work for damage, not healing (this removes the unnecessary, and probably unintended, buffs this line gives to healing).
- Remove the burst heal from Bow proc and make the stacks fall off after a shorter duration (20 seconds max), (this introduces skill in actually building up and timing the burst).
- Adjust some of the percent damage modifiers (incap, concealed, etc) to have their current max values only apply to Assassination/NB skills, and only at half values for non-NB abilities/damage (this limits the generic buff everything that Assassination currently grants sub-classed builds).

These changes would barely hit pure NB too, since the damage remains the same, healing will need to be slightly adjusted, but this can be done with changes to the Siphoning line, which appears to be NBs designated healing line.

Sluggy · November 23

Theignson wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

ESO PvP Is in Decline

Ball Groups Are Out of Control

The biggest elephant in the room is the state of ball groups.
Stacked heals, stacked buffs, stacked shields — it’s all gotten ridiculous. They can sprint through an entire keep, wipe entire factions of people without breaking much of a sweat, and shrug off entire factions because the sheer amount of layered defensive power is unlike anything else in the game.

There is no counterplay anymore. Except for another ball group and even that most of the time ends in a stalemate. It’s not even about skill at this point — it’s about stacking mechanics to the point of absurdity.

Speed Creep Has Broken Combat

ESO was always a game where line of sight mattered more than raw mitigation. But now?

People are zooming around keeps at speeds that simply break the intended flow of combat. (Remember when people actually using Gap closers) When the best defense is to outrun and LOS faster than abilities can even register, something has gone very wrong. Speed creep is outpacing the fundamental design of the game.

I’m saying it because I care about it. Many of us do— but it’s hard to keep defending a game mode that the developers seem reluctant to support.

There is something very strange about speed in the current PvP. Let's review this.

Run speed is 100%, sprint is 140%. The speed cap is 200%.

It is almost impossible to get to the speed cap without sprinting: Major= 30%, minor 15%, 3 swift 21%, celerity 10%. Without spring you are at 176%, not capped even with those build concessions (sacrificing 3 enchants and one red CP) But these players are at 200%.
Here's the thing: they need sprint...but...you cannot cast abilities when sprinting. These players are running super fast yet using abilities all the time.
My orc NB has 10% orc bonus to spring, 9% medium armor bonus to spring, equips major and minor and sometimes 1-2 swift and sometimes celerity. He is at the cap but frequently just cannot catch these players eg in towers.

*ding ding ding*

Would you like to take a vowel?

Sluggy · November 23

AD_ThisIsTheWay wrote: »

Very interesting comments in this thread guys. I'm glad to see everyone sharing their opinions and input.

I must say though, my intention for this thread wasn't to get bogged down fully into the mechanics of the meta, or discuss certain types of gear or abilities that are problematic. I hear you that lots of things need to be addressed in terms of evening out the combat, especially after subclassing has been introduced.

My intention for this thread was to discuss the bigger picture. Where is PVP going? How can we keep it interesting? How can we evolve the PVP systems and game modes entirely to keep up in the current climate of videogaming? Because currently, with what is happening now, it has gotten very stale. It needs to be refreshed. It needs to be shiny and attractive for the new players and veterans alike. I fear that if significant changes don't happen, the population will continue to decline.

So please, lets open this thread up to discuss more BIG PICTURE ideas. Does anyone like my idea of the coliseum mode? See my prior thoughts:

So in conclusion, here are the things that I would absolutely love to see for Bgs.

- New maps, a lot more please.
- An overhaul of the PVP ranking system in bgs
- A new ranked mode for bgs that implements a tier system
- New rewards that can be earned by winning and leveling your rank in bgs
- Lastly, a brand new game mode for the hardcore end-game pvpers who want to become legends (we could call it the coliseum or something)! A league that requires you to officially register a team and advance up the bracket. There could be seasons for the league that reset after a set period of time.

The problem I see, and probably many others as well, is that none of those things mean anything if the core gameplay isn't rewarding in and of itself. I haven't played in a month or so but I doubt it's any different and likely worse. There's a great game deep down there that has been able to flourish despite the mismanagement. But it's gotten to the point that it's no longer accessible for most - even the ones that do it on the regular. And even if it is, how many are really having that much fun? From what I read above even the winners aren't in some cases. Add to that all of the technical issues, exploits, and general disagreement of the community itself on what they'd like to see the game be and it's no wonder PvP has come to this. The population isn't in decline. It's gone. One camp that barely hits the limit during primetime at the lowest population in the history of the game is the very definition of a dead game (or game mode in this case, at least).

AD_ThisIsTheWay · November 24

Sluggy wrote: »

The problem I see, and probably many others as well, is that none of those things mean anything if the core gameplay isn't rewarding in and of itself. I haven't played in a month or so but I doubt it's any different and likely worse. There's a great game deep down there that has been able to flourish despite the mismanagement. But it's gotten to the point that it's no longer accessible for most - even the ones that do it on the regular. And even if it is, how many are really having that much fun? From what I read above even the winners aren't in some cases. Add to that all of the technical issues, exploits, and general disagreement of the community itself on what they'd like to see the game be and it's no wonder PvP has come to this. The population isn't in decline. It's gone. One camp that barely hits the limit during primetime at the lowest population in the history of the game is the very definition of a dead game (or game mode in this case, at least).

Yeah I hear you on a lot of what you just said. And I do agree that PVP is pretty much DEAD in cyro since I see zero bars all the time.

But that being said, speaking on behalf of the BG community on PSNA, there are still A LOT of active players in the BG community. I am still an active player, and at the moment my wait time in between queues is often less than 2 minutes.

At least, for what I see on PS5, the BG community still appears to be going strong. A lot stronger than in CYRO or IC.

Finally, for the record... I just want to say... I AM STILL HAVING FUN. For me, the fun isn't buried "deep down there", or "inaccessible". I am still very much having a great time in BGs. Especially every time I execute a nightblade

. Currently I'm working on a new dragon knight build.

For me, there is still a plethora of fun to be had in the small scale combat, especially when you are working with a team and getting super competitive. I just wish ZOS would incentivize more people to enter BGs and add more refreshing content. That's all.

Sluggy · November 24

AD_ThisIsTheWay wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

The problem I see, and probably many others as well, is that none of those things mean anything if the core gameplay isn't rewarding in and of itself. I haven't played in a month or so but I doubt it's any different and likely worse. There's a great game deep down there that has been able to flourish despite the mismanagement. But it's gotten to the point that it's no longer accessible for most - even the ones that do it on the regular. And even if it is, how many are really having that much fun? From what I read above even the winners aren't in some cases. Add to that all of the technical issues, exploits, and general disagreement of the community itself on what they'd like to see the game be and it's no wonder PvP has come to this. The population isn't in decline. It's gone. One camp that barely hits the limit during primetime at the lowest population in the history of the game is the very definition of a dead game (or game mode in this case, at least).

Yeah I hear you on a lot of what you just said. And I do agree that PVP is pretty much DEAD in cyro since I see zero bars all the time.

But that being said, speaking on behalf of the BG community on PSNA, there are still A LOT of active players in the BG community. I am still an active player, and at the moment my wait time in between queues is often less than 2 minutes.

At least, for what I see on PS5, the BG community still appears to be going strong. A lot stronger than in CYRO or IC.

Finally, for the record... I just want to say... I AM STILL HAVING FUN. For me, the fun isn't buried "deep down there", or "inaccessible". I am still very much having a great time in BGs. Especially every time I execute a nightblade . Currently I'm working on a new dragon knight build.

For me, there is still a plethora of fun to be had in the small scale combat, especially when you are working with a team and getting super competitive. I just wish ZOS would incentivize more people to enter BGs and add more refreshing content. That's all.

I'm glad you are having fun! Sometimes I log in and have it too and that's really the reason I bother posting or logging in at all anymore.

Those times are hard to find now for me. And I've given up on trying to bring others into this game mode because, as I said, it's mostly inaccessible anymore. A casual night with a new person in Cyrodiil feels like taking someone into the sweatiest Unreal Tournament competitive lobby in the world. I'll be the first to say that I like high skill ceilings and I don't want a dumbed down game but we all know that it's just gotten totally out of hand, especially with how well group works now. There's a lot I didn't like about vengeance but at least I knew I could walk out there with zero prep and have a fighting chance against anyone. But it seemed doomed from the very start. There wasn't enough velocity and it seems the general community rejected it so they've likely just halted it at this point. Fair enough but I'd say we've pretty much killed our own last chance at ever seeing a real concerted effort by ZoS.

AD_ThisIsTheWay · November 24

Sluggy wrote: »

Fair enough but I'd say we've pretty much killed our own last chance at ever seeing a real concerted effort by ZoS.

I hope you are wrong. I sincerely do! I've put in too many hours at this game to lose hope haha.

Turtle_Bot · 2:32AM

Well, it looks like they have made a start on what I said needed to happen regarding Vengeance:

Lastly for Vengeance, a few things here.
ZOS needs to confirm (and stick to this) that vengeance is just tests and won't be "the final product" or at most will be an option for cyrodiil (ideally a "learner" cyrodiil for new players to learn PvP basics).

ZOS needs to speed up these tests so they don't drag on too long.

ZOS needs to do balancing for live Cyrodiil in the meantime so PvP doesn't die completely while waiting for the results of these tests to produce outcomes.

Forum Link below:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685603/community-update-vengeance-testing-cyrodiil/p1

They have confirmed that Vengeance is (as per their stated goals) now going to be (ideally) an option at most, to be ran alongside Greyhost (and apparently a new "mini-cyrodiil" mode that is like a mix of BGs and Cyrodiil but with full greyhost ruleset). They definitely need to stick with this though and ideally not let greyhost (or vengeance) just rot balance wise.

They also acknowledged the tests dragging on too long and have stated their plans regarding future tests for next year (including healing vs damage tests). They have also shared a few results of the previous tests and the actual population caps in Cyrodiil (360 total/120 per faction for live, 900 total/300 per faction for vengeance) with us too which was really nice to see.

The last thing that remains unaddressed is my third point: Balancing Live alongside the tests/vengeance so that the tests aren't in vain.
This is still up in the air since it seems most of the combat balance team is tied up with vengeance currently (and less people available due to microsofts recent layoffs).

Also note that the above linked forum thread is stated (by ZOS themselves) to be in addition to the 3rd PvP FAQ update, not a replacement for it. So that FAQ should still be coming soon (tm).

Honestly (cynicism/skepticism aside), as much as ZOS has messed up over the years, these early signs/communications under the new leadership (open and honest communication about the writhing wall event mess up, and now this for vengeance including sharing some of the results/data graphs) have been a really nice step in the right direction so kudos to ZOS where it is due. Hopefully it continues and is built upon, even though it will take a lot of time and rolling with the punches to push through the cynicism/skepticism of the player base that has built up through the years as a result of the many decisions made in the past.

Lucasl402 · 3:16AM

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Well, it looks like they have made a start on what I said needed to happen regarding Vengeance:

Lastly for Vengeance, a few things here.
ZOS needs to confirm (and stick to this) that vengeance is just tests and won't be "the final product" or at most will be an option for cyrodiil (ideally a "learner" cyrodiil for new players to learn PvP basics).

ZOS needs to speed up these tests so they don't drag on too long.

ZOS needs to do balancing for live Cyrodiil in the meantime so PvP doesn't die completely while waiting for the results of these tests to produce outcomes.

Forum Link below:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685603/community-update-vengeance-testing-cyrodiil/p1

They have confirmed that Vengeance is (as per their stated goals) now going to be (ideally) an option at most, to be ran alongside Greyhost (and apparently a new "mini-cyrodiil" mode that is like a mix of BGs and Cyrodiil but with full greyhost ruleset). They definitely need to stick with this though and ideally not let greyhost (or vengeance) just rot balance wise.

They also acknowledged the tests dragging on too long and have stated their plans regarding future tests for next year (including healing vs damage tests). They have also shared a few results of the previous tests and the actual population caps in Cyrodiil (360 total/120 per faction for live, 900 total/300 per faction for vengeance) with us too which was really nice to see.

The last thing that remains unaddressed is my third point: Balancing Live alongside the tests/vengeance so that the tests aren't in vain.
This is still up in the air since it seems most of the combat balance team is tied up with vengeance currently (and less people available due to microsofts recent layoffs).

Also note that the above linked forum thread is stated (by ZOS themselves) to be in addition to the 3rd PvP FAQ update, not a replacement for it. So that FAQ should still be coming soon (tm).

Honestly (cynicism/skepticism aside), as much as ZOS has messed up over the years, these early signs/communications under the new leadership (open and honest communication about the writhing wall event mess up, and now this for vengeance including sharing some of the results/data graphs) have been a really nice step in the right direction so kudos to ZOS where it is due. Hopefully it continues and is built upon, even though it will take a lot of time and rolling with the punches to push through the cynicism/skepticism of the player base that has built up through the years as a result of the many decisions made in the past.

Ya, that's nice. ZOS says a lot of things. What did we get out of the months of condition tests they forced us to play about 3 years ago? Nothing. They walked away after those tests and never did anything with the data except stealth lower the pop cap a few times.