Elephant in the Room - The End-Game PVP Culture is Declining. How Can ZOS Mitigate This?

AD_ThisIsTheWay · November 16

If you as the reader here truly keep up with your daily dose of ESO twitch streamers and YouTubers, then at this point you must be aware of the giant elephant in the room - People are upset!

1 - BGs have gone downhill. People often complain about how in the new system it just isn't fun anymore. In the new 4v4 or 8v8 queues, you are either on the winning team going 30 and 0, or the losing team getting spawn killed. Why is that? And how can we fix it?

2 - People generally are upset by the lack of rewards in PVP. What even is the point? What are we trying to achieve? Why are we still in Cyrodill and imperial city getting zerg'd in a game that never seems to end? Why are we spending so much time playing the same bgs over and over again without any goals or achievements in sight?

3 - In bgs, why are we in a constant rotation of the same maps? Isn't this game 10 years old? How come we don't have more diversity? Only 3 maps for 4v4 and 4 maps for 8v8. It feels extremely repetitive. According to sekaarbgs (a streamer who recently announced that he was quitting ESO): "the lack of maps and new content is actually quite pathetic. Why should I keep playing if I'm not having fun anymore".

4 - Lastly - The huge outrage at the vengeance server and everything that it stands for. It appears that the consensus amongst the culture is that what makes PVP fun is the ability to get creative and make your own builds. Nobody wants to play a dumbed down version of the game, even if the frame rates are faster.

These, in my humble opinion, are the key talking points in the PVP community as we close out 2025. Generally speaking, in the current state of affairs, optimism within the PVP community is at an all-time low. As a true fan of this game, someone who has been playing on and off since 2015, I really hope that ZOS can snap out of it and acknowledge the feelings of their fan base. It feels as though PVP is just an after thought, and for this reason they only do the bare minimum every year.

So the question is, as we move forward, what can ZOS do to improve the end-game experience for PVP players? How can the optimism in the culture be restored?

At this point in my thread I will begin to introduce my own opinions on the matter. Take them or leave them. But I am simply sharing a few ideas for what would ultimately keep me excited about the game, and prevent me from burning out in the mediocrity and dullness of the current landscape.

1. In BGs, I think the queue system needs a large-scale overhaul. The generic solo and group options are not enough. Speaking on behalf of PSNA, most people just queue in the solo categories. And this leads to both veterans and newbies consistently playing in the same games. And it gives the newbies absolutely no chance. The current system has created an incredibly harsh and unforgiving environment for new people to learn.

Personally I don't see any harm in benchmarking the matchmaking strategies from other games. For instance, why can't we have a "casual" mode and a "ranked" mode for bgs? If there was a ranked mode, and perhaps a new leveling system that would place you in a certain "tier" within the ranked mode, this would allow you to always play with people who are the same skill level as you - leading to more interesting and competitive games.

Furthermore, for the ranked mode... I think ZOS would successfully attract a lot more PVP players if they integrated a new reward system. What if you could win special rewards simply by winning and leveling up into different tiers, etc. Let the pvpers earn some new skins, mounts, motif pages, etc, that are solely unique to their rank. There could even be some legendary items that you could earn simply by achieving glory and making it to the top of the leaderboard, etc. Let us run around tamriel and show off our trophys please. This would absolutely incentivize more people to PVP. Especially the people who take great joy in collecting things.

A couple of years ago I wrote a thread about world of warcrafts arena system. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Why can't ZOS do something like that? Give the hardcore end-game pvpers a new place to go. Incentivize them to team up and work together. 6v6, 4v4, 3v3, and 2v2 arena modes would be awesome. In my previous thread I mentioned how perhaps it could be a new mode called "coliseum" or something along the lines of that. In this game mode you would have to officially register your team into the league, and throughout the coliseum season your team can get promoted or relegated. A new league like this would incentivize people to team up together, strategize and work on their "team build" instead of just their "solo" build. And again, if you make it to the top tier within this game mode, there could be some legendary collectibles or items that you could earn by being one of the best. How cool would that be?

I recognize that this is a hot take, but personally, I always enjoyed BGs a lot more than Cyro and IC. For me, I enjoy games that can start and finish in one sitting. I like the satisfaction of winning and seeing the results of my effort. I never enjoyed how the campaign modes drag on for so long. But again, that is just me.

So in conclusion, here are the things that I would absolutely love to see for Bgs.

- New maps, a lot more please.
- An overhaul of the PVP ranking system in bgs
- A new ranked mode for bgs that implements a tier system
- New rewards that can be earned by winning and leveling your rank in bgs
- Lastly, a brand new game mode for the hardcore end-game pvpers who want to become legends! A league that requires you to officially register a team and advance up the bracket. There could be seasons for the league that reset after a set period of time.

My last idea - for the end game PVP league I referred to previously, I recognize that the possibility of a draw is very real. Between tanks, healers, etc. I don't see any harm in the game implementing new mechanics to prevent that from happening. Perhaps there could be traps that your team could fall into, or NPC's that enter the game after a certain amount of time and add a plot twist. There are a plethora of things that could be done to prevent those draws from ever happening. Just food for thought.

Thanks for hearing me out guys. I still love playing this game. I am just sharing my opinions for how the game can get better.

See ya later!

xFocused · November 16

I’ve been playing PvP in this game for years. From Cyro to IC to battlegrounds to dealing with all the terrible metas, bugs, glitches and the like. I can firmly say this current state of Cyro is one of the worst I’ve ever seen

Ball groups are just way too overpowered at the moment with the number of stackable heals and shields they can have. Siege does nothing, PUG groups can’t fight them due to the comped out meta they run, there needs to be a middle ground for this. A 12 man group should not be able to hold almost 3 bars at a single keep hostage

Rewards aren’t really all that important anymore. The extra transmutes are nice but other than those and selling scripts, I don’t really see how the rewards are all that important anymore.

Warden charm, rush of agony, these are two game breaking features in desperate need of a fix. See the multiple threads on here about both of these things and you’ll understand why

I know there’s more but all in all, I can firmly say that lately on prime time, almost every alliance is only sitting at 1-2 bars instead of 3. Can’t blame them. Cyro is a mess right now and it’s not looking to get any better

Turtle_Bot · November 17

@xFocused has summed up the issues with Live Cyrodiil pretty well.

I do want to add though, the current WardenBladeX build (where X is just insert 3rd skill line of choice) that plagues PvP needs addressing. Solving Charm will fix most of the warden aspect of this build, but the elephant in the room with this build is the Assassination skill line. This skill line needs massive nerfs to it's insane crit chance bonuses (that makes it a mandatory skill line for DPS in both PvE and PvP) and the removal of firing multiple bow procs back to back that are basically ultimate level abilities, but without the long build up time (30s+) that ultimates are supposed to have.

As for the other aspects of PvP raised but not covered:

Rewards:

Rewards are an interesting topic. The main issue I see with things like locked rewards (and it's not an issue with the rewards being locked behind specific content), is that there's a certain subsection of ESO's community who are a very loud minority that feel way too entitled to have absolutely everything in this game given to them, even without participating in the content that gives it (many of them also have an extreme aversion to PvP). So while yes I agree that there should be more meaningful rewards for PvP that are locked to doing PvP activities, I just cannot see it being implemented by ZOS because of this.

Vengeance:

As for Vengeance, this has been interesting to watch over the past few months, there were claims of vengeance killing PvP if it got introduced, but every time I log on to ESO the past few months (which is daily), live Cyrodiil Greyhost barely has 1 bar (maybe 1 alliance has 2 bars). It seems live Cyrodiil is just as dead as it's proponents claimed vengeance would be.

Is Vengeance mode the future for PvP? I doubt it. Too much is lost without the ability to theorycraft builds, but bringing back the ability for the massive scale battles is something that should be strived for, the issue I see with vengeance (assuming it is just tests to find causes of bugs/issues and test fixes that can be taken to live servers) is that it's too slow and too late (this doesn't mean ZOS should stop, but speed it up as much as possible while addressing the concerns of vengeance and balancing to ensure what the tests can find out will be in time to help live Cyrodiil).

Solutions:

Remove Rush of Agony from PvP (it's a PvE set anyway) and make Charm a regular stun.
Directly address ball groups via limiting stacking of buffs, heals and shields. The reward for organized play in PvP should be better coordination and group based skill, not infinite power because the group can slot/stack more buffs than anyone else in the game.
When it comes to rewards, ZOS needs to completely ignore (and ideally drown out) that small selfish subsection that is plaguing this topic and stifling any progress from being made here and actually look into adding desirable rewards for PvP activities/achievements.
Huge balance overhaul for PvP beyond just the specifics above.
Lastly for Vengeance, a few things here.
- ZOS needs to confirm (and stick to this) that vengeance is just tests and won't be "the final product" or at most will be an option for cyrodiil (ideally a "learner" cyrodiil for new players to learn PvP basics).
- ZOS needs to speed up these tests so they don't drag on too long.
- ZOS needs to do balancing for live Cyrodiil in the meantime so PvP doesn't die completely while waiting for the results of these tests to produce outcomes.

iGuavaTH · November 17

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

[...]
Vengeance:

As for Vengeance, this has been interesting to watch over the past few months, there were claims of vengeance killing PvP if it got introduced, but every time I log on to ESO the past few months (which is daily), live Cyrodiil Greyhost barely has 1 bar (maybe 1 alliance has 2 bars). It seems live Cyrodiil is just as dead as it's proponents claimed vengeance would be.

Is Vengeance mode the future for PvP? I doubt it. Too much is lost without the ability to theorycraft builds, but bringing back the ability for the massive scale battles is something that should be strived for, the issue I see with vengeance (assuming it is just tests to find causes of bugs/issues and test fixes that can be taken to live servers) is that it's too slow and too late (this doesn't mean ZOS should stop, but speed it up as much as possible while addressing the concerns of vengeance and balancing to ensure what the tests can find out will be in time to help live Cyrodiil).

Fully agree with the above. I am not a very good pvp'er, but I did enjoy it alot. Before. Not so much anymore.

I took a long break from the game after Markarth up until a few months before Solstice and I haven't seen a single bar in Cyrodiil since I came back. (I am based in SE Asia, so not exactly prime time). That means that Cyro is mostly horse riding to try to find action, and when you find it you are vastly outnumbered most of the time, thus no use to enter at all.

The only 'real' pvp I have managed to join since my return is Vengance.

(BG's are not a good substitute either, I just don't like the new two team mode)

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Solutions:
Lastly for Vengeance, a few things here.
ZOS needs to confirm (and stick to this) that vengeance is just tests and won't be "the final product" or at most will be an option for cyrodiil (ideally a "learner" cyrodiil for new players to learn PvP basics).

ZOS needs to speed up these tests so they don't drag on too long.

ZOS needs to do balancing for live Cyrodiil in the meantime so PvP doesn't die completely while waiting for the results of these tests to produce outcomes.

I think your first point is REALLY important. I can't understand how ZOS can not address the uncertainty in the pvp community. Without more info on what is going on and what the future plans are, pvp is bleeding players, since too many seems certain that Vengance is the only future.

I would like to see some kind of permanent Vengance campaign in the future. I do think it would be a gateway to get new players interested without having to either;
- invest a lot of time and effort in gearing up for a mode they don't know if they like, or
- die all the time in their pve setups, which probably will keep them away from pvp forever.

BUT, as you say, ZOS should be more open about their vision for pvp. Without theorycrafting PVP as we know it will die.

WuffyCerulei · November 17

For Vengeance, I personally would like it to be a separate campaign, probs replacing the no-cp one. A choice, not replacing the main Cyrodiil campaign.

Turtle_Bot · November 17

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

For Vengeance, I personally would like it to be a separate campaign, probs replacing the no-cp one. A choice, not replacing the main Cyrodiil campaign.

Ideally it would replace the below 50 campaign. Have it as a way to learn how to PvP in ESO and develop those skills without the added stress of needing a full PvP build or needing to deal with things like Rush, etc.

Ideally ZOS would also get some knowledgeable PvPers involved to give them some basic builds based on roles that they can implement as presets in such a mode that players would choose upon entering the campaign, that way players who join the vengeance campaign can get an idea of the types of stats, skills, etc. that help to make a good PvP build and can build on that knowledge when/if they feel like dipping their toes into the regular campaigns.

A bonus of replacing the below 50 campaign is that it would remove a lot of the "players" who have maxed out level 45-49 gear and just constantly reroll characters to farm actual new players who step into that campaign who likely would only have mixed overland sets at best.

MasterSpatula · November 17

Ah, a reframing of quite a number of people as "no one." How novel.

Chrisilis · November 17

New BG maps would be lovely. The terrain is a huge part of the strategy of BG's. The same 4 maps over and over is getting incredibly boring. How bout putting the old 4v4v4 maps back into rotation, just leave one spawn empty (or, you know, fill it with a third team:)

New leads. Several new leads. Oodles of leads! BG specific, new statues, paintings, motifs. A house, notable. Fragments of the house to drop in BG rewards mail. Rarely. 10 fragments. Heck, make it 20 (curated). Something like that would up the population of BG's for months. Do a new house every year. Why they aren't using rewards to appeal to the broader player base to drive participation is a mystery to me. A little bit of bribery would go a long way, just sayin.

Not much to say on Cyro, I only dip in there once or twice a month. The short form nature of Bg's is much more my speed. I will say with or without Vengeance I find Cyro to be fairly boring. Run here. Fight! (Or don't, there's no one there) Run somewhere else! Stand in castle wondering where is everyone. Leave and go play Bg's.

Happy to see the continued interest in the community in regards to the future of Battlegrounds. Wish we could all see that same interest on the part of the developers.

xFocused · November 17

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

@xFocused has summed up the issues with Live Cyrodiil pretty well.

I do want to add though, the current WardenBladeX build (where X is just insert 3rd skill line of choice) that plagues PvP needs addressing. Solving Charm will fix most of the warden aspect of this build, but the elephant in the room with this build is the Assassination skill line. This skill line needs massive nerfs to it's insane crit chance bonuses (that makes it a mandatory skill line for DPS in both PvE and PvP) and the removal of firing multiple bow procs back to back that are basically ultimate level abilities, but without the long build up time (30s+) that ultimates are supposed to have.

As for the other aspects of PvP raised but not covered:

Rewards:

Rewards are an interesting topic. The main issue I see with things like locked rewards (and it's not an issue with the rewards being locked behind specific content), is that there's a certain subsection of ESO's community who are a very loud minority that feel way too entitled to have absolutely everything in this game given to them, even without participating in the content that gives it (many of them also have an extreme aversion to PvP). So while yes I agree that there should be more meaningful rewards for PvP that are locked to doing PvP activities, I just cannot see it being implemented by ZOS because of this.

Vengeance:

As for Vengeance, this has been interesting to watch over the past few months, there were claims of vengeance killing PvP if it got introduced, but every time I log on to ESO the past few months (which is daily), live Cyrodiil Greyhost barely has 1 bar (maybe 1 alliance has 2 bars). It seems live Cyrodiil is just as dead as it's proponents claimed vengeance would be.

Is Vengeance mode the future for PvP? I doubt it. Too much is lost without the ability to theorycraft builds, but bringing back the ability for the massive scale battles is something that should be strived for, the issue I see with vengeance (assuming it is just tests to find causes of bugs/issues and test fixes that can be taken to live servers) is that it's too slow and too late (this doesn't mean ZOS should stop, but speed it up as much as possible while addressing the concerns of vengeance and balancing to ensure what the tests can find out will be in time to help live Cyrodiil).

Solutions:
Remove Rush of Agony from PvP (it's a PvE set anyway) and make Charm a regular stun.

Directly address ball groups via limiting stacking of buffs, heals and shields. The reward for organized play in PvP should be better coordination and group based skill, not infinite power because the group can slot/stack more buffs than anyone else in the game.

When it comes to rewards, ZOS needs to completely ignore (and ideally drown out) that small selfish subsection that is plaguing this topic and stifling any progress from being made here and actually look into adding desirable rewards for PvP activities/achievements.

Huge balance overhaul for PvP beyond just the specifics above.

Lastly for Vengeance, a few things here.
ZOS needs to confirm (and stick to this) that vengeance is just tests and won't be "the final product" or at most will be an option for cyrodiil (ideally a "learner" cyrodiil for new players to learn PvP basics).

ZOS needs to speed up these tests so they don't drag on too long.

ZOS needs to do balancing for live Cyrodiil in the meantime so PvP doesn't die completely while waiting for the results of these tests to produce outcomes.

Thank you and very well said.

AD_ThisIsTheWay · November 17

xFocused wrote: »

Ball groups are just way too overpowered at the moment with the number of stackable heals and shields they can have. Siege does nothing, PUG groups can’t fight them due to the comped out meta they run, there needs to be a middle ground for this. A 12 man group should not be able to hold almost 3 bars at a single keep hostage

@xFocused I hear you on the ball groups being too overpowered. Again, I am a lot more of a BG guy than a Cyro guy. But in my opinion, being a part of a successful ball group is a lot of fun though. Seeing the results of a well-practiced and tested strategy within your team is incredibly rewarding. I understand a lot of balancing still needs to be done. But I don't think we should ignore the fun elements of team work either.

Again, this is why I think a new PVP mode for hardcore end-gamers to go would be clutch. It would be small-scale ball groups pitted against each other. So instead of a ball group taking out PUG groups and noobs in an open field in Cyro after running for 30+ minutes, it would be quick matchmaking for ball groups to fight each other. And I think a new league like this would be incredibly fun and fulfilling. See my comments above with the suggestion about the "coliseum mode". Wouldn't something like that be awesome?

And when you tie in new maps with fresh and interesting mechanics, that would be a completely different level of entertainment. In 4v4 BGs, I am a huge fan of huntsmans fortress. I love it when two teams are fighting on the bridge, and there is a potential for people to fall to their death in the water below. If we had more maps like this in BGs and my proposed "coliseum mode", perhaps with dynamic mechanics, traps, etc, I just think it would be a lot of fun.

Elinhir arena is such a cool housing property. They were truly on to something there with the duel arena and the mechanics that can be triggered from flame damage, to shock damage, and traps, etc. Let's see more stuff like that in actual PVP content. Anything they can do to keep the matches interesting and less repetitive.

Super hot take: Perhaps there is too much focus getting put into testing Cyro and trying to repair a system that is noticeably in decline. Maybe more focus needs to go into renovating the small scale PVP systems. In the small-scale pvp systems, frame rates and lag are much less of an issue. Im a bg guy and I'm fully aware of my bias here haha

React · November 17

AD_ThisIsTheWay wrote: »

@xFocused I hear you on the ball groups being too overpowered. Again, I am a lot more of a BG guy than a Cyro guy. But in my opinion, being a part of a successful ball group is a lot of fun though. Seeing the results of a well-practiced and tested strategy within your team is incredibly rewarding. I understand a lot of balancing still needs to be done. But I don't think we should ignore the fun elements of team work either.

Turtle Bot said it best in his post below.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Directly address ball groups via limiting stacking of buffs, heals and shields. The reward for organized play in PvP should be better coordination and group based skill, not infinite power because the group can slot/stack more buffs than anyone else in the game.

Durham · November 17

ESO PvP Is in Decline

I don’t post often, but I feel like it’s time to say out loud what most long-time ESO PvP players already know: PvP has been ignored for far too long. The imbalance, the power creep, and the lack of meaningful updates have slowly drained the life out of what used to be one of the most unique PvP experiences in MMORPGs.

Ball Groups Are Out of Control

The biggest elephant in the room is the state of ball groups.
Stacked heals, stacked buffs, stacked shields — it’s all gotten ridiculous. They can sprint through an entire keep, wipe entire factions of people without breaking much of a sweat, and shrug off entire factions because the sheer amount of layered defensive power is unlike anything else in the game.

There is no counterplay anymore. Except for another ball group and even that most of the time ends in a stalemate. It’s not even about skill at this point — it’s about stacking mechanics to the point of absurdity.

Speed Creep Has Broken Combat

ESO was always a game where line of sight mattered more than raw mitigation. But now?

People are zooming around keeps at speeds that simply break the intended flow of combat. (Remember when people actually using Gap closers) When the best defense is to outrun and LOS faster than abilities can even register, something has gone very wrong. Speed creep is outpacing the fundamental design of the game.

Old Exploits Still Not Fixed

Here’s another example:
The boxes in keeps that break line of sight even when you can clearly see someone behind them.

This has been exploited for years. Never fixed. Never adjusted. Never even acknowledged. Just like many other long-standing PvP issues.

This is why players say PvP is ignored — because these problems are visible, known, and nothing ever changes.

Population Decline Is Real

It’s not “doom posting” to point out what’s happening.
New players are not staying long enough to become veterans. Why would they? Their first experience in keep defense is usually getting farmed by eight unkillable, speed-warped, heal-stacked players who take near zero damage.

That’s not fun. That’s not inviting. And it kills PvP populations over time — which is exactly what we’re seeing.

Lack of Communication Makes It Worse

ESO has always struggled with communication, especially around PvP.
The silence is honestly one of the most damaging part of this whole situation. Even small statements or roadmaps would help. Instead, we get almost nothing.

It feels like the game is just coasting on its profit margins, not actively investing in the future of PvP gameplay.

The Sad Part? ESO PvP Could Be Great

That’s the tragedy.
ESO has one of the best combat systems in the MMO genre — fluid, responsive, skill-based, visually satisfying. The foundation is there. The potential is there.

But the refusal to address the power creep in healing, shields, and speed, along with years of bug neglect, has made the mode feel abandoned.

I’m not saying this because I hate the game. I’m saying it because I care about it. Many of us do— but it’s hard to keep defending a game mode that the developers seem reluctant to support.

RaidingTraiding · November 17

React wrote: »

AD_ThisIsTheWay wrote: »

@xFocused I hear you on the ball groups being too overpowered. Again, I am a lot more of a BG guy than a Cyro guy. But in my opinion, being a part of a successful ball group is a lot of fun though. Seeing the results of a well-practiced and tested strategy within your team is incredibly rewarding. I understand a lot of balancing still needs to be done. But I don't think we should ignore the fun elements of team work either.

Turtle Bot said it best in his post below.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Directly address ball groups via limiting stacking of buffs, heals and shields. The reward for organized play in PvP should be better coordination and group based skill, not infinite power because the group can slot/stack more buffs than anyone else in the game.

Yeah I agree with this. a few years ago I lead a comped small group which we then comped into a ball group. It was pretty off meta but it worked really well because we put more emphasis on synergizing with our players and playing to our strengths, and forming our own playstyle. It felt pretty rewarding and we were often able to kill other ball groups that strictly followed the meta. That was the early days of rush of agony, which we didn't use, and before all of the ridiculous shield stacking.

When zos started doubling down on the unkillable shield meta for ball groups and nerfing certain aoe damage mechanics we were forced to start incorporating the meta and we lost some players because of it as well. It started becoming unfun even though we did a decent job of adapting, but the fun aspects of playing off meta builds and making your own unique group were pretty much gone. we still retained some parts of our old comp but if you didn't run certain things you'd just have no shot.

Kind of a night and day difference between that and a full meta group. I filled for a group that ran the meta to a T and honestly it was very boring. just run around in the open field and the only coordination was a countdown of the pulls, there wasn't even coordination of ults used, and hardly any movement calls, just overall pretty braindead. the gvgs were also very boring. it all came down to who could get the pull off first to kill 1 or 2 people at a time.

needless to say, my group and many others just left the game altogether. all that's left are the diehards that enjoy this rush of agony unkillable group meta.

Theignson · November 17

xFocused wrote: »

I’ve been playing PvP in this game for years. From Cyro to IC to battlegrounds to dealing with all the terrible metas, bugs, glitches and the like. I can firmly say this current state of Cyro is one of the worst I’ve ever seen

Ball groups are just way too overpowered at the moment with the number of stackable heals and shields they can have. Siege does nothing, PUG groups can’t fight them due to the comped out meta they run, there needs to be a middle ground for this. A 12 man group should not be able to hold almost 3 bars at a single keep hostage

Warden charm, rush of agony, these are two game breaking features in desperate need of a fix. See the multiple threads on here about both of these things and you’ll understand why

I know there’s more but all in all, I can firmly say that lately on prime time, almost every alliance is only sitting at 1-2 bars instead of 3. Can’t blame them. Cyro is a mess right now and it’s not looking to get any better

This is well said. Now there are 4 man groups that are virtually immortal and even some 2 man duos extremely hard to kill. This is not due to skill-- Vengeance proved that. These ball groups and small groups refused to play because they died like pugs. Without crutch sets like Proc Of Agony , and without insane cross healing/shields, they had only a slight advantage of coordination, and that wasn't acceptable to them.

On the other hand, build variety makes the game still interesting. If they could greatly tone down cross healing/shileds, take out broken Charm, and Crutch of Agony set, the game would still be interesting. And ball groups could still easily focus 12v1 or 2, but they would face a tougher and more fair fight against similar numbers of pugs

Theignson · November 17

Durham wrote: »

ESO PvP Is in Decline

Ball Groups Are Out of Control

The biggest elephant in the room is the state of ball groups.
Stacked heals, stacked buffs, stacked shields — it’s all gotten ridiculous. They can sprint through an entire keep, wipe entire factions of people without breaking much of a sweat, and shrug off entire factions because the sheer amount of layered defensive power is unlike anything else in the game.

There is no counterplay anymore. Except for another ball group and even that most of the time ends in a stalemate. It’s not even about skill at this point — it’s about stacking mechanics to the point of absurdity.

Speed Creep Has Broken Combat

ESO was always a game where line of sight mattered more than raw mitigation. But now?

People are zooming around keeps at speeds that simply break the intended flow of combat. (Remember when people actually using Gap closers) When the best defense is to outrun and LOS faster than abilities can even register, something has gone very wrong. Speed creep is outpacing the fundamental design of the game.

I’m saying it because I care about it. Many of us do— but it’s hard to keep defending a game mode that the developers seem reluctant to support.

There is something very strange about speed in the current PvP. Let's review this.

Run speed is 100%, sprint is 140%. The speed cap is 200%.

It is almost impossible to get to the speed cap without sprinting: Major= 30%, minor 15%, 3 swift 21%, celerity 10%. Without spring you are at 176%, not capped even with those build concessions (sacrificing 3 enchants and one red CP) But these players are at 200%.
Here's the thing: they need sprint...but...you cannot cast abilities when sprinting. These players are running super fast yet using abilities all the time.
My orc NB has 10% orc bonus to spring, 9% medium armor bonus to spring, equips major and minor and sometimes 1-2 swift and sometimes celerity. He is at the cap but frequently just cannot catch these players eg in towers.

Durham · November 17

Theignson wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

ESO PvP Is in Decline

Ball Groups Are Out of Control

The biggest elephant in the room is the state of ball groups.
Stacked heals, stacked buffs, stacked shields — it’s all gotten ridiculous. They can sprint through an entire keep, wipe entire factions of people without breaking much of a sweat, and shrug off entire factions because the sheer amount of layered defensive power is unlike anything else in the game.

There is no counterplay anymore. Except for another ball group and even that most of the time ends in a stalemate. It’s not even about skill at this point — it’s about stacking mechanics to the point of absurdity.

Speed Creep Has Broken Combat

ESO was always a game where line of sight mattered more than raw mitigation. But now?

People are zooming around keeps at speeds that simply break the intended flow of combat. (Remember when people actually using Gap closers) When the best defense is to outrun and LOS faster than abilities can even register, something has gone very wrong. Speed creep is outpacing the fundamental design of the game.

I’m saying it because I care about it. Many of us do— but it’s hard to keep defending a game mode that the developers seem reluctant to support.

There is something very strange about speed in the current PvP. Let's review this.

Run speed is 100%, sprint is 140%. The speed cap is 200%.

It is almost impossible to get to the speed cap without sprinting: Major= 30%, minor 15%, 3 swift 21%, celerity 10%. Without spring you are at 176%, not capped even with those build concessions (sacrificing 3 enchants and one red CP) But these players are at 200%.
Here's the thing: they need sprint...but...you cannot cast abilities when sprinting. These players are running super fast yet using abilities all the time.
My orc NB has 10% orc bonus to spring, 9% medium armor bonus to spring, equips major and minor and sometimes 1-2 swift and sometimes celerity. He is at the cap but frequently just cannot catch these players eg in towers.

You are not wrong

AD_ThisIsTheWay · November 17

Very interesting comments in this thread guys. I'm glad to see everyone sharing their opinions and input.

I must say though, my intention for this thread wasn't to get bogged down fully into the mechanics of the meta, or discuss certain types of gear or abilities that are problematic. I hear you that lots of things need to be addressed in terms of evening out the combat, especially after subclassing has been introduced.

My intention for this thread was to discuss the bigger picture. Where is PVP going? How can we keep it interesting? How can we evolve the PVP systems and game modes entirely to keep up in the current climate of videogaming? Because currently, with what is happening now, it has gotten very stale. It needs to be refreshed. It needs to be shiny and attractive for the new players and veterans alike. I fear that if significant changes don't happen, the population will continue to decline.

So please, lets open this thread up to discuss more BIG PICTURE ideas. Does anyone like my idea of the coliseum mode? See my prior thoughts:

So in conclusion, here are the things that I would absolutely love to see for Bgs.

- New maps, a lot more please.
- An overhaul of the PVP ranking system in bgs
- A new ranked mode for bgs that implements a tier system
- New rewards that can be earned by winning and leveling your rank in bgs
- Lastly, a brand new game mode for the hardcore end-game pvpers who want to become legends (we could call it the coliseum or something)! A league that requires you to officially register a team and advance up the bracket. There could be seasons for the league that reset after a set period of time.

xFocused · November 18

All in all, PvP just isn't what it used to be. I strongly believe Subclassing is one of the main culprits as to why the population is dying. Obviously meta sets and builds (RoA, Warden Charm, WardenBlade, etc etc...) are also factors but Subclassing as a whole was just the wrong decision in my opinion. There's no longer class identity, everyone literally runs the same builds these days from bombers to 1vx'ers to comped ball groups, it's just...stale.

I think there's some serious red flags right now with PvP when on a Saturday night every alliance is sitting at 1-2 bars and even when there is 3 bars, there's no queue. There's barely any fights at 3 bars. It definitely feels like the regular players you see or used to see nightly or weekly are either going back to PvE or just quitting altogether. Can't really blame them. Zos has these forums with players from all every platform talking about our concerns and issues with the game and it seems like they fall on deaf ears. I don't remember anyone ever asking for subclassing but yet they rolled it out anyway and now look at the state of things.

Sad to see honestly.

Major_Toughness · November 18

MAKE AZUREBLIGHT GREAT AGAIN

SaffronCitrusflower · November 18

ZOS can't credibly claim they're trying to fix PvP performance until they've tried limiting heal and shield stacking. That and removing the free pull sets like RoA. #NoFreePulls

Yes ZOS, it really is that simple.

SaffronCitrusflower · November 18

Theignson wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

ESO PvP Is in Decline

Ball Groups Are Out of Control

The biggest elephant in the room is the state of ball groups.
Stacked heals, stacked buffs, stacked shields — it’s all gotten ridiculous. They can sprint through an entire keep, wipe entire factions of people without breaking much of a sweat, and shrug off entire factions because the sheer amount of layered defensive power is unlike anything else in the game.

There is no counterplay anymore. Except for another ball group and even that most of the time ends in a stalemate. It’s not even about skill at this point — it’s about stacking mechanics to the point of absurdity.

Speed Creep Has Broken Combat

ESO was always a game where line of sight mattered more than raw mitigation. But now?

People are zooming around keeps at speeds that simply break the intended flow of combat. (Remember when people actually using Gap closers) When the best defense is to outrun and LOS faster than abilities can even register, something has gone very wrong. Speed creep is outpacing the fundamental design of the game.

I’m saying it because I care about it. Many of us do— but it’s hard to keep defending a game mode that the developers seem reluctant to support.

There is something very strange about speed in the current PvP. Let's review this.

Run speed is 100%, sprint is 140%. The speed cap is 200%.

It is almost impossible to get to the speed cap without sprinting: Major= 30%, minor 15%, 3 swift 21%, celerity 10%. Without spring you are at 176%, not capped even with those build concessions (sacrificing 3 enchants and one red CP) But these players are at 200%.
Here's the thing: they need sprint...but...you cannot cast abilities when sprinting. These players are running super fast yet using abilities all the time.
My orc NB has 10% orc bonus to spring, 9% medium armor bonus to spring, equips major and minor and sometimes 1-2 swift and sometimes celerity. He is at the cap but frequently just cannot catch these players eg in towers.

Yes, there is something going on with speeding in ESO. That and not everyone can be wearing snow treaders, but nearly everyone seems to be immune to stuns as well. I think people have figured out how to speed hack and get free immovable status somehow.

Udrath · November 19

PVP has been on the decline since Elsweyr, mainly because new players are not joining PvP and more are quitting. Without new players PvP will die, and with all the changes and gear to grind it’s to much to learn to have fun at PvP now as a brand new player.

Nobody is going to invest time into a dying game mode, even if they were to roll back all the changes made in the past decade. Even vengeance will have a short shelf life, and pvp will just be another daily to check off the list, which is how it is treated for most players. That’s why teams in battlegrounds are full of PVE players. They just want the daily, not to pvp.

Then you have the community who are usually cool and friendly, but like most pvp games you have people that hate losing and are heavily invested in PvP, to the point they’re not fun to fight because they’re always using the latest busted builds, mind you in a game that supposedly says “play how you want” yet everyone has the same build? Nobody seems different or fun to fight, and this was true even before subclassing existed.

And then you have ball group farmers with a min/max group build. People do not enjoy fighting unkillable organized zergs which are ballgroups, but do enjoy huge faction vs faction battles. Unfortunately ball groups ruin all big faction vs faction fights the second they show up.

Best bet is hope for ESO 2 because pvp is ruined, with like what maybe 50-100 active pvp players left. I quit last year, only logging in maybe once every few months and it is sad to see such a fun game turn to what it is now.

StackonClown · November 19

Also, it seems the only way to EMP is to ignore your life and camp in Cyro for days and weeks.
Make this easier or add an element of randomness.

AD_ThisIsTheWay · November 19

Udrath wrote: »

Without new players PvP will die, and with all the changes and gear to grind it’s to much to learn to have fun at PvP now as a brand new player.

@Udrath , I completely understand your point about all the gear to grind, and how it is overwhelming to learn. For the third time now, this is why I am recommending a new TIER system within BGs. This way, when you first start to play, you enter tier 1. The more you get kills and begin to level up, you would progress to tier 2, tier 3, etc (think about the matchmaking structures in call of duty or old school halo). This way, veterans at tier 10 won't be playing the newbies in tier 1 anymore, unless they are playing in the "casual" mode or something along the lines of that. However, the casual mode would mostly be for people who are just doing their dailies, or perhaps people who are really new and trying to learn PVP without getting overwhelmed. For the ranked system, If they implemented a good reward structure (think along the lines of a battle pass or something), this would prevent most veterans from playing in the casual mode and 1vxing everyone to death. If people have a purpose, I believe they will follow it.

Yes, the amount of gear out there and all of the mythics and grinding can be super daunting for newbies. But as long as we pit them against each other (either in casual mode or tier 1 ranked) instead of the veterans, that would be OKAY. Or at the very least an ACCEPTABLE first step to incentivize people to keep playing ESO and PVP.

Lastly, I just want to speak on the gear for a moment. But I must say, I am pretty darn good at BGs on the PSNA server. I am constantly on the top of the list at the end of every match mainly because I love PVP and I have been practicing and studying it for a long time. And for the record, I am NOT a meta freak. If I see someone on youtube discussing the word "meta", I run in the opposite direction. I don't run monomyth, I don't stack crit damage, I don't use the warden CC, I don't use nightblades or spec bow. I actually despise nightblades and I've made it a point to make them my arch-nemeses. My favorite character at the moment is a NECRO. And I stack weapon and spell damage, and offensive penetration. My crit chance is literally less than 25%. But I am still able to win quite often and get 20+ kills and 0-2 deaths, using a build that I have made completely myself without watching youtube or following the latest trends. These things are possible if you try.

Another fun build that I have (I will reveal this one) is my warden healer build. EW HEALERS, in BGs? Are you sick? Well yes, maybe I am. But hear me out... This build is a lot of fun:

Nerieneth monster helm,
front bar winterborn,
back bar MALIGALIG,
mad god shoes mythic
2 heavy/reinforced trainee pieces

With this gear on, literally play the game like a PVE healer and see all of the procs that you get. I will sometimes do 1.5 Million healing and 1 million damage with 10+ kills and 0 deaths. Even though I am healing people, I still end up at the top of the list for kills.This is one of my favorite builds I theory crafted that I'm sharing with the world.

I believe this is a prime example of an OFF META build that is a GAME CHANGER in BGs. It confuses everyone and is ultimately a lot of fun to play. These kind of builds are the reason why I love to PVP. And I think if we had a new PVP system in place to encourage people to think like this, outside of the box, and work together as teams in smaller-scale combat, this would create a lot more interest in PVP again. Now, the one potential issue here is that this kind of gaming does take work, and time, and intellect, and I don't think everyone has that kind of time or patience. This is why some people go on youtube, search meta, and copy and paste other peoples builds. But still, for the people who do approach the game the same way as me, there is a LOT of reward potential.

I don't think people speak enough on the positive aspects of the game and the theory crafting possibilities that are out there. Perhaps people are just lazy, and for this reason they follow the meta instead, who knows. But for the people who approach the game like me, there is plenty of satisfaction and reward out there. But I do admit, I don't feel this way in Cyro. Cyro is just a train wreck. I rarely step foot into cyro. The ball group zergs, RoA and vicious death have gotten out of control. It doesn't matter what gear you have on, you don't really stand a chance. This is why I prefer BGs. BG's are where I belong. Hence why I made an incredibly long thread to discuss my hopes and dreams for BGs and the smaller scale PVP combat.

ZOS you out there? You hearing me? Love you boo. But you can be a bit better. This is just tough love.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · November 19

Unfortunately there are various speed hack tools out there and it's very hard to prove if people use it.

Also you can simply sprint let go of sprint for a split second, cast and re-sprint.

Players will also do this around the resource tick timer so sprinting doesnt impact their resource gain. ZOS could fix this by ensuring that if a player was sprinting at any time between the last tick being calculated and the new tick calculation the resources are adjusted but that requires a code change. (same with blocking).

The problem with organised groups right now is that the disparity between a 12m and 6-7m is really large due to the power of stacked sets and the amount of heals / support in the game now. In the past 24m groups were balanced by groups choosing to play at lower numbers still being able to perform on relative parity because there were only so many buffs you could stack.
This in combination with the added burst in the game and the much much lower population means that a 12m group is now such a larger % of the overall playerbase that they are no longer a balancing tool and instead are an overpowering force generally.

AD_ThisIsTheWay · November 20

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The problem with organised groups right now is that the disparity between a 12m and 6-7m is really large due to the power of stacked sets and the amount of heals / support in the game now.

This is very well said. This is yet another reason for why I think BGs and small scale pvp systems reign superior. For the most part, BGs guarantee that the teams are EVEN from the start of the match until the end. You aren't in a one sided battle where your failure is guaranteed. Sometimes in Cyro (rarely) if you do encounter an EVEN match between two ball groups, it is worth noting that those fights can be super fun and dynamic (even in the current climate with stackable shields, heals, RoA and subclassing). Now, imagine a 12v12 ranked match in a newer small-scale BG mode, with new and fresh maps that are dynamic with different traps and mechanics that can be triggered. How fun would that be instead? In my opinion this would be a lot more fun and refreshing than running around cyro for 3 hours and hoping to get into a fun battle (but most likely not).

Yes, updates to the mechanics are in desperate need of a refresh. That is a huge part of the elephant in the room.

However, when we zoom out, it isn't the biggest chunk of the elephant in my opinion. The biggest part of the elephant is the LACK OF SUBSTANCE for bgs and small scale PVP. Zos - for 2026, can you please re-access your priorities and give us more maps and more game modes. Before it is too late.

It feels like ESO PVP has been grilled chicken. Every day, just grilled chicken, with hardly any seasoning. Bland. Please, take me to outback steakhouse for a surf n turf, coconut shrimp and a bloomin onion. I fear if I don't get that kind of new experience soon, my time on the game might be coming to an end.

Theignson · November 20

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Unfortunately there are various speed hack tools out there and it's very hard to prove if people use it.

Also you can simply sprint let go of sprint for a split second, cast and re-sprint.

Players will also do this around the resource tick timer so sprinting doesnt impact their resource gain. ZOS could fix this by ensuring that if a player was sprinting at any time between the last tick being calculated and the new tick calculation the resources are adjusted but that requires a code change. (same with blocking).

How do they know when the resource tick timer is up, is that an addon?

I have heard about speed hacks. I have also heard that controller users have an input device that can automate things like heals, breakfree and light attack /skill/bash weaving. Although this device has been named on this board, I will not name it because I suspect that is frowned upon. But if you see people who are constantly running top speed, immediately break all CC, perfectly heal, and on recap perfectly execute their weaving, that may be why.

(a perfect weave is when light attack, skill and bash all land within .1 seconds. In combat with the chaos and movement and defense this is hard to achieve every time for human players. In other words the standard deviation of the time between light attack and skill firing is much higher than if a controller device with a macro does it. People who say this is no advantage in Pvp, due to lag, are not correct. The lag affects the human and the macro equally, but the macro will still do more damage per unit time due to perfect weaving)

Rohamad_Ali · November 20

Open world Vengence PvP day. That would mitigate something for me

aetherix8 · November 20

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Open world Vengence PvP day. That would mitigate something for me

That would scare all the PvEers from the game for good, and could lead to the end of the game imo. Short-term fun, long-term tomb.

Rohamad_Ali · November 20

aetherix8 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Open world Vengence PvP day. That would mitigate something for me

That would scare all the PvEers from the game for good, and could lead to the end of the game imo. Short-term fun, long-term tomb.

For one day. Don't threaten me with a good time.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · November 20

Theignson wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Unfortunately there are various speed hack tools out there and it's very hard to prove if people use it.

Also you can simply sprint let go of sprint for a split second, cast and re-sprint.

Players will also do this around the resource tick timer so sprinting doesnt impact their resource gain. ZOS could fix this by ensuring that if a player was sprinting at any time between the last tick being calculated and the new tick calculation the resources are adjusted but that requires a code change. (same with blocking).

How do they know when the resource tick timer is up, is that an addon?

been in the game for many many years (original was 2018) - https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info4240-MiatsTickTracker.html