Vengeance ruleset for Dungeons/Etc.

SneaK · November 24

Hi there, I have a genuine question:

As I’ve seen how the Vengeance TEST campaign in Cyrodiil has solved all the issues with performance and provided entries into portions of the game that many people have struggled with,,,
could we expect to see some similar tests for PvE?

I personally don’t have the gear or time to build out a 100k+ DPS character or a great healer build that would be required for some of the newer content. It sure would be nice to be able to select a template and just queue up with that template build so I could finally feel relevant and enjoy these portions of the game that I’m currently distanced from.

Oh yea, and I regularly see lag spikes in dungeons or sometimes while gathering skyshards (maybe my mount is just too fast!). Surely this new ruleset could fix this since it fixed Cyrodiil.

I dont see why the PvP community gets access to this type of feature and DLC PvE players don’t.

Thank you.

BardokRedSnow · November 24

Lmao now see, THIS is bait, but I agree.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · November 24

Vengeance also removes things like Craft bag and quests from Cyrodiil.

Imagine what would happen if PvE, you know the 99% of the game had 99% of it's content removed and nobody could do quests, daily writs, had their painfully grinded sets removed, their craft bag empty and forcefully had their vampirism and lycanthrope characters made normal.

SneaK · November 24

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Vengeance also removes things like Craft bag and quests from Cyrodiil.

Imagine what would happen if PvE, you know the 99% of the game had 99% of it's content removed and nobody could do quests, daily writs, had their painfully grinded sets removed, their craft bag empty and forcefully had their vampirism and lycanthrope characters made normal.

But it would stop the lag right? And I could still complete the content/achievements.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · November 24

SneaK wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Vengeance also removes things like Craft bag and quests from Cyrodiil.

Imagine what would happen if PvE, you know the 99% of the game had 99% of it's content removed and nobody could do quests, daily writs, had their painfully grinded sets removed, their craft bag empty and forcefully had their vampirism and lycanthrope characters made normal.

But it would stop the lag right? And I could still complete the content/achievements.

Not under vengeance you couldn't, this is a PvE game not a PvP game, PvP is just the optional versus mode.

SneaK · November 24

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Lmao now see, THIS is bait, but I agree.

Typically anything people disagree with on these forums can be considered bait. But you agree so you obviously understand where I’m coming from.

Radiate77 · November 24

This would be pretty great actually. Good idea.
Skills need to be watered down, across the board.

Why is it that skills like Power Extraction have a whole paragraph of effects while something like Swallow Soul only does damage and heals?

BardokRedSnow · November 24

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Lmao now see, THIS is bait, but I agree.

Typically anything people disagree with on these forums can be considered bait. But you agree so you obviously understand where I’m coming from.

Yea, removing the main thing I do from the game and stripping all of its rpg elements and even remotely considering making it permanent because of a false positive derived from a community that has a chip on its shoulder because they're bad at pvp is beyond outrageous and is unacceptable.

SneaK · November 24

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Vengeance also removes things like Craft bag and quests from Cyrodiil.

Imagine what would happen if PvE, you know the 99% of the game had 99% of it's content removed and nobody could do quests, daily writs, had their painfully grinded sets removed, their craft bag empty and forcefully had their vampirism and lycanthrope characters made normal.

But it would stop the lag right? And I could still complete the content/achievements.

Not under vengeance you couldn't, this is a PvE game not a PvP game, PvP is just the optional versus mode.

Why not? Are you saying the new Vengenace ENHANCEMENT in PvP won’t be tracking achievements when it goes live?

I understand it was just a TEST, but I assumed when they make it live and replace Cyrodiil with it, it would allow character progression like achievements(?). If that’s the case, then why not offer this for PvE, and in doing so fix the lag?

I lagged out at the final boss in White Gold tower many years ago, been too gunshy to even return. Would be nice to have it fixed. Feel like Vengeance PvE could be the answer.

Radiate77 · November 24

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Lmao now see, THIS is bait, but I agree.

Typically anything people disagree with on these forums can be considered bait. But you agree so you obviously understand where I’m coming from.

Yea, removing the main thing I do from the game and stripping all of its rpg elements and even remotely considering making it permanent because of a false positive derived from a community that has a chip on its shoulder because they're bad at pvp is beyond outrageous and is unacceptable.

When Vengeance fails, as we all know it will, they are going to tear down Grayhost with it.

All we will be left with is Imperial City, Battlegrounds, Dueling, and whatever the mid-size PvP mode they plan on making is.

Here’s to hoping that captures the feeling of Cyrodiil, because that new mode is our actual last hope.

BardokRedSnow · November 24

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Vengeance also removes things like Craft bag and quests from Cyrodiil.

Imagine what would happen if PvE, you know the 99% of the game had 99% of it's content removed and nobody could do quests, daily writs, had their painfully grinded sets removed, their craft bag empty and forcefully had their vampirism and lycanthrope characters made normal.

But it would stop the lag right? And I could still complete the content/achievements.

Not under vengeance you couldn't, this is a PvE game not a PvP game, PvP is just the optional versus mode.

Someone bagged this guy one too many times. PVP is the only dynamic part of the game, if it were just "optional" they wouldn't bother with constant balancing and nerfing specifically for pvp.

MasterSpatula · November 24

The levels of bad faith here are off the charts.

Morvan · November 24

MasterSpatula wrote: »

The levels of bad faith here are off the charts.

Can you blame them though?

TX12001rwb17_ESO · November 24

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Vengeance also removes things like Craft bag and quests from Cyrodiil.

Imagine what would happen if PvE, you know the 99% of the game had 99% of it's content removed and nobody could do quests, daily writs, had their painfully grinded sets removed, their craft bag empty and forcefully had their vampirism and lycanthrope characters made normal.

But it would stop the lag right? And I could still complete the content/achievements.

Not under vengeance you couldn't, this is a PvE game not a PvP game, PvP is just the optional versus mode.

Someone bagged this guy one too many times. PVP is the only dynamic part of the game, if it were just "optional" they wouldn't bother with constant balancing and nerfing specifically for pvp.

PvP is literally dead, go to the Imperial City and see how many people there are, who exactly are you fighting against?

Radiate77 · November 24

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Vengeance also removes things like Craft bag and quests from Cyrodiil.

Imagine what would happen if PvE, you know the 99% of the game had 99% of it's content removed and nobody could do quests, daily writs, had their painfully grinded sets removed, their craft bag empty and forcefully had their vampirism and lycanthrope characters made normal.

But it would stop the lag right? And I could still complete the content/achievements.

Not under vengeance you couldn't, this is a PvE game not a PvP game, PvP is just the optional versus mode.

Someone bagged this guy one too many times. PVP is the only dynamic part of the game, if it were just "optional" they wouldn't bother with constant balancing and nerfing specifically for pvp.

PvP is literally dead, go to the Imperial City and see how many people there are, who exactly are you fighting against?

Yeah, this is the sad reality.

Vengeance is the last Hail Mary that Cyrodiil and Imperial City have before both regions are transitioned into PvE zones.

SneaK · November 24

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Vengeance also removes things like Craft bag and quests from Cyrodiil.

Imagine what would happen if PvE, you know the 99% of the game had 99% of it's content removed and nobody could do quests, daily writs, had their painfully grinded sets removed, their craft bag empty and forcefully had their vampirism and lycanthrope characters made normal.

But it would stop the lag right? And I could still complete the content/achievements.

Not under vengeance you couldn't, this is a PvE game not a PvP game, PvP is just the optional versus mode.

Someone bagged this guy one too many times. PVP is the only dynamic part of the game, if it were just "optional" they wouldn't bother with constant balancing and nerfing specifically for pvp.

PvP is literally dead, go to the Imperial City and see how many people there are, who exactly are you fighting against?

Vengeance will fix this though. Same with let’s say Galen, I would love to be able to solo world bosses there but I’m not powerful enough and there’s no one ever there to help, I assume it’s cause of lag spikes which is why no one goes there, but decreasing skill load would fix the lag which would enable more players to go. Same with with Writhing Wall Dolmens, so much lag, Vengeance would have fixed it I think.

robpr · November 24

All of the sarcasm aside, this could be an excellent idea for dungeons difficulty mode

SneaK · November 24

robpr wrote: »

All of the sarcasm aside, this could be an excellent idea for dungeons difficulty mode

Vet trials too!

Radiate77 · November 24

SneaK wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

All of the sarcasm aside, this could be an excellent idea for dungeons difficulty mode

Vet trials too!

While we’re at it, when can we side with the trial boss?

I would love to be able to team-kill a toxic raid lead without needing to drop a Worldshaper on their head.

SneaK · November 24

Radiate77 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

All of the sarcasm aside, this could be an excellent idea for dungeons difficulty mode

Vet trials too!

While we’re at it, when can we side with the trial boss?

I would love to be able to team-kill a toxic raid lead without needing to drop a Worldshaper on their head.

That’s off topic, this is about lag and how vengeance would fix lag in PvE just like it will in Cyrodiil. I remember years ago we tried Maw but the final boss was too laggy to finish. Vengeance pve would fix that.

In turn, many more players could experience these parts of the game.

Radiate77 · November 24

SneaK wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

All of the sarcasm aside, this could be an excellent idea for dungeons difficulty mode

Vet trials too!

While we’re at it, when can we side with the trial boss?

I would love to be able to team-kill a toxic raid lead without needing to drop a Worldshaper on their head.

That’s off topic, this is about lag and how vengeance would fix lag in PvE just like it will in Cyrodiil. I remember years ago we tried Maw but the final boss was too laggy to finish. Vengeance pve would fix that.

In turn, many more players could experience these parts of the game.

Yes sir, my apologies.

Perhaps when Orsinium crashed every time we traveled there, a Vengeance answer could have worked splendid.

SneaK · November 24

Radiate77 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

All of the sarcasm aside, this could be an excellent idea for dungeons difficulty mode

Vet trials too!

While we’re at it, when can we side with the trial boss?

I would love to be able to team-kill a toxic raid lead without needing to drop a Worldshaper on their head.

That’s off topic, this is about lag and how vengeance would fix lag in PvE just like it will in Cyrodiil. I remember years ago we tried Maw but the final boss was too laggy to finish. Vengeance pve would fix that.

In turn, many more players could experience these parts of the game.

Yes sir, my apologies.

Perhaps when Orsinium crashed every time we traveled there, a Vengeance answer could have worked splendid.

Exactly. Too many people spamming abilities in town ruined that DLC for a lot of us. Vengeance ruleset would have prevented it I think.

Stamicka · November 24

Imagine 4 man dungeon content became 3 man content…then 2 man…. then solo content. On top of that, imagine it remained that way for 8+ years and it was all because 4 man content was essentially unplayable with 4 man groups as intended.

In that case, it’s not the worst idea in the world to bring back 4 man groups through the Vengeance treatment.

Anyway, nothing like this has ever happened, so it’s just not necessary for PvE. It’s that simple.

SneaK · November 24

Stamicka wrote: »

Imagine 4 man dungeon content became 3 man content…then 2 man…. then solo content. On top of that, imagine it remained that way for 8+ years and it was all because 4 man content was essentially unplayable with 4 man groups as intended.

In that case, it’s not the worst idea in the world to bring back 4 man groups through the Vengeance treatment.

Anyway, nothing like this has ever happened, so it’s just not necessary for PvE. It’s that simple.

I feel like @Radiate77 gave a great example above.

Lord_Hev · November 24

I whole-heartedly agree with this, not because of bait. But because I genuinely think vengeance ruleset would be an amazing test for PvE. It might actually capture some of the old-school charm I yearn for from the good old days when questing was actually engaging and required me to pay attention to enemy mechanics and having to carefully choose which mobs to pull.

Dagoth_Rac · November 24

Dungeons and overland do not have the performance issues or extremely low population that Cyrodiil does. Stop acting like ZOS came up with Vengeance out of personal spite. It is an attempt to fix a very real problem that PvE simply does not have.

Radiate77 · November 24

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Dungeons and overland do not have the performance issues or extremely low population that Cyrodiil does. Stop acting like ZOS came up with Vengeance out of personal spite. It is an attempt to fix a very real problem that PvE simply does not have.

Here’s the thing, PvE used to have all of those problems, if not worse. Anyone who has been around when Sanctum Ophidia dropped knows all about it.

Now what’s the difference?

Well instead of forcing weird restrictions down everyone’s throat back then, actual resources went into fixing the problem.

YandereGirlfriend · November 24

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Dungeons and overland do not have the performance issues or extremely low population that Cyrodiil does. Stop acting like ZOS came up with Vengeance out of personal spite. It is an attempt to fix a very real problem that PvE simply does not have.

Trials DEFINITELY have performance issues!

Ask anyone involved in the trifecta scene how many of their pulls get scuffed due to server performance. It's a shockingly high percentage.

Lord_Hev · November 24

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Dungeons and overland do not have the performance issues or extremely low population that Cyrodiil does. Stop acting like ZOS came up with Vengeance out of personal spite. It is an attempt to fix a very real problem that PvE simply does not have.

PvE surprisingly has a lot of similar issues that PvP has. The game fundamentally has become so incredibly bloated. Single abilities that do multiple things, unnecessary passives that should just be baked natively into characters without needing skill investments. Proc sets that require reading a paragraph. Not to mention severe visual clutter. I can't even understand what half the world bosses do anymore because there's 50+ players all spamming abilities and creating a nightmare of a lightshow while the boss basically T-poses because the server is struggling to keep-up despite playing on a PC that is beyond overkill for the recommended hardware listed.

valenwood_vegan · November 24

Well, I don't know about pve vengenace, but yeah I would definitely agree that zos should shift their focus back to pve.

kargen27 · November 24

Lag and gear are completely separate. The tests in Cyrodiil are all about server performance not player performance. There is some lag in trials and other similar content and it would be nice if that could be fixed. If you can't do the content now though you probably wouldn't be able to do it with a template.
Nothing requires 100k DPS to finish. If all DPS in the group can average 30K DPS and the group understands the mechanics you can make it through all content. You aren't going to make the leader boards but you can do the content.
Vengeance doesn't mean all of a sudden you are going to be competitive in PvP even if you have the same gear. Part of the problem with PvP is all the calculations that have to be made with cross heals, multiple AOE and all kinds of other stuff. Trials are limited to 12 players while PvP can have much more than that. PvP has many more calculations to make.
PvE could probably (I'm guessing) be helped with less effects going off?

PvE is nowhere near as laggy and unstable as PvP probably more than 90% of the time. Would be nice to have better server performance in trials and dungeons. Still either way even if ZoS did put you in a template build it won't mean much towards completion. I have a build where players are showing 110K DPS on a dummy and using that same build I'm lucky to push 60K. Just having the template won't mean much if your rotation isn't on point.
And for the most part the PvP crowd wants to be able to use all their available builds and sets. They want more diversity than what Vengeance provides.