The big downside of the set is that you are locked to the target you marked for 10 seconds, and hit everybody else like a wet noodle! I love that!

Having to switch targets is super important in both pvp (except duels) and pve, and I think it's a fair trade. In pvp, the clear counter is to hide behind your group members, who (against the set user) are basically meat shields.

I love this version of the set!

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Huntsman's Warmask - good change, but 20% is a bit too much. Compare that to Malacath's 16%, which comes with a major downside reducing its damage output. Warmask's downside is very minor by comparison. Looking at PvP, as it stands, this mythic is now more powerful than Monomyth (+20% damage > +20% crit damage). It's very easy to apply, has a short cooldown and a long duration with the only downside being that it can be cleansed (which is only relevant against builds that have a cleanse in the first place).

As it stands I think Malacath could probably use a buff up to 20% (the reason Malacath was nerfed down to 16% was because proc sets had high damage and couldn't crit anyway. Now many of them deal lower damage but can crit, which made Malacath weaker, so there is room to buff it).
For Warmask, either increase the cooldown or lower the bonus to 15%, which would bring it more in line with Velothi in PvE too.

Monomyth has no realistic downside and crit damage is addative, not multiplicative, meaning if you were in a scenario where you could crit 100% of the time, 20% Major force would provide a bigger boost than 20% Huntsman.

Have to chime in here, that's true but also false.

Crit damage is additive with itself, which means that it gives you less of a percentage damage boost the more you stack it.

Here's a scenario: let's say you have a 10 000 tooltip on an ability and you increase your critical damage from 100% to 110%. Your critical strike will now deal 21 000 damage rather than 20 000 - this is an increase of 5%.

Meanwhile if you just increase your base tooltip from 10 000 to 11 000 with a 10% damage done modifier (assuming you have no other ones, these are also additive with each other) you are going to crit for 22 000 - an increase of 10%.

Basically the more you stack one thing, the less efficient it is and all the different modifiers are essentially multiplicative with each other but additive with themselves (base tooltip, %dmg done, penetration, crit dmg, %dmg taken).


...so you'd have to have some crazy numbers of %dmg done modifiers in order for Major Force to be stronger than a 20% damage done buff. This is theoretically possible with things like off balance & heavy attack etc, but very unlikely to ever happen in a practical scenario.

Decimus wrote: »

On the topic of the new mythic... it's cool to see it be viable, but perhaps it's a little bit too strong for single target now that its proc condition has been made infinitely easier?

Previously the "fully charged heavy attack" part kind of reined in the power of the set since doing a fully charged heavy attack does result in a DPS loss typically and aren't without counterplay in PvP... but bash is another thing entirely and very easy to perform in any type of content.


Personally I'd rather see the set be more difficult to proc and encourage different types of gameplay than be just the next evolution of the power creep (for single target fights & most PvP builds).

OR just give it Damage Done To Monsters and call it a day, heh.

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Not sure how I feel about 20% damage that can proc off of bash. I'll wait for parses but that seems like it would be insane at the high-end where players can reliably bash weave to keep the effect up without any DPS loss.

It's a 60s duration and they went to the effort of adding bash as an additional proc condition knowing full well it doesn't effect your pve dps, I'm pretty sure they're not concerned about it being easy to keep up seeing as it has the hefty -50% cleave on top.

Also, if it does have the intended effect of a 10s cooldown @Freelancer_ESO found, then this would prevent players from cycling the debuff to high priority targets every GCD, if they pick a target they kinda have to stick with it for a minimum amount of time. Plus, if the effect is cleansed, you miss out on a solid chunk of time before you can apply it again.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Huntsman's Warmask - good change, but 20% is a bit too much. Compare that to Malacath's 16%, which comes with a major downside reducing its damage output. Warmask's downside is very minor by comparison. Looking at PvP, as it stands, this mythic is now more powerful than Monomyth (+20% damage > +20% crit damage). It's very easy to apply, has a short cooldown and a long duration with the only downside being that it can be cleansed (which is only relevant against builds that have a cleanse in the first place).

As it stands I think Malacath could probably use a buff up to 20% (the reason Malacath was nerfed down to 16% was because proc sets had high damage and couldn't crit anyway. Now many of them deal lower damage but can crit, which made Malacath weaker, so there is room to buff it).
For Warmask, either increase the cooldown or lower the bonus to 15%, which would bring it more in line with Velothi in PvE too.

Monomyth has no realistic downside and crit damage is addative, not multiplicative, meaning if you were in a scenario where you could crit 100% of the time, 20% Major force would provide a bigger boost than 20% Huntsman. This is ignoring the fact that Huntsman reduces your damage to all other targets by -50% and Monomyth gives Minor Berserk, Major Protection, and Minor Vitality. The "downsides" of the mythic are just as negligble as the -50% depending on your playstyle and perspective. So in this comparison, I'd still say Mono is stronger.

Velothi is not a general multiplier, it's "damage done to monsters" which is an entirely seperate bucket, aka, it doesn't have the same deminishing returns so the 15% you see is actually closer to 20% or above if it was a general all purpose multiplier. It also nerfs your light attack (single target) damage to 1%. This in effect has created 2 mythics with distinct playstyle purposes of 1v1 vs cleave, I hope pve dps parses prove this or else the mythic is useless.

Malacath is just bad, it's been bad and should be buffed as you described a bit. I wouldn't call for nerfs over something that hasn't even been properly tested yet.

Plus, even from pvp perspective, I'd rather die to someone with a +20% single target -50% cleave buff, then someone with a proc set which is what this set directly has to compete with. A Werewolf for instance would have trouble taking this set and a monster set at the same time, would I prefer to die to Selenes or this? This every time.

Frankly, I think in all examples given, the playstyle differences are distinct and interesting, none of them really need nerfs. Malacath needs a minor buff, and Mono needs an added negative for both bars since Minor Vuln and Minor Timity are easy to ignore, the pro's outweigh the con's a bit too much there.

@MashmalloMan Your assessment is correct, but I was mostly talking about PvP, especially while comparing it to Monomyth. In PvP you don't have 100% crit chance and sources of Minor Berserk are plenty. The damage reduction to other targets is quite negligible in PvP as well, because for most builds you are going to primarily deal damage to one target at a time, focus that down, then switch to the next target. Obviously for 1vX Northern Storm Wardens or for bombing, this doesn't apply.
I think at 20% Warmask is far stronger than Monomyth on most builds, provided you aren't fighting a build with a lot of cleanses (which to be fair are quite common). But that just reinforces that running forms of cleanse becomes more mandatory, making the strong builds even stronger.

It's a fair point that in PvP the set competes with monster sets, so perhaps I didn't factor that in enough, but I also don't think that it competes with proc sets much either, especially because this buff should multiply proc damage the same way Malacath does. I'd expect people to run proc sets on body and/or weapons with this, for example a Bash Build, scaling off resistance, with Deadlands Demolisher and getting that extra 20% on top with no extra effort involved to apply the buff. That could be quite strong and annoying to fight.

While talking about Velothi, I was talking about PvE, since you correctly noted that it's "damage done to monsters". From a pure PvE perspective, I wouldn't want to see Warmask nerfed either, so if ZOS decides to change it to 15% damage done, and an extra 5% damage done to monsters (or something along those lines) that would be fine with me. Making all of it only apply to monsters is overkill in my opinion. I like it when my mythic stays relevant in both PvE and PvP, like Oakensoul, so the PvPers can run pledges and daily randoms without needing to swap builds.

I'll concede that 60s duration is way too long for pvp, cleanses are plentiful with subclassing, but not every player wants to take Animal Companions or Restoring Light. However, it's just a debuff from that 1 player, it's not like it's increasing all your damage taken or done. If it lingers for that long you're either 1v1ing them anyway where they can easily reapply it or that player can't get in bash range to move it to another target, thereby nerfing everything they do until they can.

My point about the 100% crit chance comparison wasn't that you need that much, it's that the 20% value is stronger than it really appears because crit damage is addative instead of multiplicative. Although, you can pretty easily stack to 60% crit chance or above right now, and there are many skills and sets to gurantee crits.

My main point was Monomyth is not just a damage set, it has the unique opportunity of giving a huge defensive bonus when you need it most on back bar, Warmask does nothing defensively. In fact it actually hurts your defense because you're not just trading out Major Protection and Minor Vitality, you're losing pressure on secondary targets by not having Major Force and the -50% debuff, giving them more opportunities to pressure you... which I suppose is the point. It's a glass cannon type of item, so it should be powerful, not equal imo to something like Mono.

I'll wait for testing, but to me 20% seems fair for what you trade in both pve and pvp. It's probably really good on a NB ganker, but honestly if they get like 5% more damage on me by swapping from Mono, at least they're 10-15% easier to kill without Mono's Protection/Vitality.

I'm down for a 15/5 split with damage done to monsters if necessary, but ZOS rarely seems to understand how to balance those 2 things at the same time when implementing it this way. Look no further than the abomination that is Beacon of Oblivion.

Warmask change looks (at least, on paper) excellent.

The change makes this viable in normal builds, instead of yet-another-useless-heavy-attack-item. In the 8% version, it would be lacking behind Rakkhart so it would have been a set you get only to fill your sticker book.

But 20% damage buff? And can be procced with a bash? And lasts for 60 seconds? That rivals Velothi. If penetration is enough, and players use Trap anyway so Force is not an issue, this -- at least, on paper -- is better than Velothi on ST encounters.

This seems pretty awesome. Higher damage buff than Velothi, but with a tradeoff of less damage to ads. So it doesn't replace Velothi, but can be situationally better.

Kudos.

Side note: I see some people mention PVP issues with this, so I hope if any changes are needed because of PVP they use the Battle Spirit instead of changing the entire set for PVE as well.

Glad new set got love,hope one day we not see more dead set add in game and never use
and hope next week you can give other new patch joke set some really love

Can’t believe zos got baited by casuals to make this mythic actually a 20% damage increase

Thanks for buffing Huntsman's Warmask and for making it proc off bashes too. I've only seen a couple of CMX reports with it thus far, but it looks like it'll be the best Mythic for single target damage now. I'll echo what others have said - if turns out to be too strong in PvP, please use Battle Spirit or something to decrease the damage bonus specifically for PvP.

It would also be great if other niche sets with numbers that are far too safe, such as the recent Xanmeer Spellweaver set, would be buffed a bit in the future too (in my humble opinion).

One spot where the latest changes to this mythic are still a little underwhelming to me is on magicka LA pve dps. I know it's not the meta, but some people still play it and ignoring how it performs here pushes it even farther away from the meta. The problem is with sustain. On my pure mag sorc ranged dps, I do see an increase but the problem is I rely on my monster set to give me two light pieces for sustain in a largely medium armor based meta, and even with that the sustain is tight. If I swap in huntsman's warmask suddenly I have to add a mag recovery glyph to one of my jewels and the net dps increase for me after swapping out maw of the infernal only ends up being about 3.5%. I can't justify adding the cognitive overhead of bashing before every ult + target switch bashes / HA for 3.5%. If that resources on kill bit was instead swapped out to its own line of flat recovery, this would be much more appealing to me as it would help make up for the lost magicka regen by adding an extra piece of medium armor into my loadout.

Or if we could finally fix light armor to drop pen for something more useful like spell / weapon damage that might also help with my fomo and open up my options. I realize this might be more about class / skill line / armor passive balance than anything else, but the resource gain the warmask currently has feels way too exclusively pvp oriented.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Can’t believe zos got baited by casuals to make this mythic actually a 20% damage increase

Me either. 60s in PvP is an eternity lol
20s was a bit too long, but probably just about right the more I think about it - can't see the cooldown right now, I'm in Live. Anyone have it offhand or I'll check later. I can think of 7 or 8 sets combined with this, this is going to be crazy damage.

Wow. Can't nerf this back to original once it's released (and we know it'll take 6-9 months anyway) so this is going to be really interesting. I can already hear the first adjustment - We fixed the Mythic, the -50% damage wasn't applying correctly (no one will care in pvp).

Fun times ahead.

Mythic Sets
Huntsman's Warmask: Increased the duration of the mark from this set to 60 seconds, up from 20. Increased the damage done to marked target to 20%, up from 8%, while increasing the penalty to damage done to unmarked targets to 50%, up from 4%. This set now also triggers off dealing damage with a Bash, in addition to fully-charged Heavy Attacks.

[Developer Comment]
Spoiler
We’re significantly upping the damage bonus and the penalty of this set to help carve out more of a niche based on feedback, where the Week 1 numbers were far too safe and didn’t offer enough value in most contexts. Now the set should be a strong contender for single target encounters or prioritizing lethal threats, at the expense of cleave and area damage.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I don't know what you're too worried about.

I have no worries.

20% damage for 60s. Sounds like fun.

Holy moly. Talk about fumbling the bag with the last-minute random nerf to the new Mythic. Now it's just Velothi but worse!

Absolutely inexplicable change.

Firey_Hellhound wrote: »

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

Huntsman's Warmask: Increased the duration of the mark from this set to 60 seconds, up from 20. Increased the damage done to marked target to 20%, up from 8%, while increasing the penalty to damage done to unmarked targets to 50%, up from 4%. This set now also triggers off dealing damage with a Bash, in addition to fully-charged Heavy Attacks.

--

Bravo!

Also wanted to say thank you for listening to the feedback and reacting accordingly. This puts it in a decent place to be used in a good number of places in game. Also the bash trigger is a really useful addition. I will actually look forwards to grabbing the leads for this ASAP.

As it is Hircine related, a slight benefit to wearwolf form could also be considered too pehaps to round it out?

OK so one week later, for no apparent reason you just made this redundant before it even arrives! Congratulations, I retract my thank you accordingly. I give up... I really thought you were making progress and actually taking on board feedback seriously. Clearly not it seems. "Players First" I don't think so.

To absolutely no one's surprise, you've just made Warmask dead on arrival for PvE in an effort to balance PvP while still failing at that objective (assuming based on 0 dev comment). As previously discussed, +15% from Velothi is much stronger than it appears as a "damage done to monsters" multiplier, meaning the higher 20% on Warmask coupled with the massive -50% cleave debuff was actually interestingly balanced to create a dynamic between the 2 sets. Now.. you've killed that.

Minor Berserk is redundant in PvE as it's provided by support, in PvP as a ganker where this set is probably going to be the most competitive, you're either getting Minor Berserk from Monomyth, Camo Hunter, or Bird of Prey. In all 3 scenarios by adding it to Warmask you've effectively kept the damage nearly identical to the previous 20% by saving a bar slot. You don't really need Camo Hunter with Major Savagery on Grim Focus, and if you were going to slot Prey, you can slot Race Against Time instead for 5% more Critical Damage and bar space flexibility as it can be back barred.

So considering the context, why would you nerf it in PvE, while keeping it relatively the same for PvP where the concerns originated from if we can even say they're justified to begin with. I'm still of the camp that considers Monomyth much better bang for your buck considering it gives the power of an offensive and defensive set in one with non-redundant, rare, Major Force, Major Protection, and Minor Vitality... And like I previously said, Minor Berserk saving a bar slot. All the while, you don't get a massive cleave nerf, while having 0 consideration for debuff management and players with cleanses that counter Warmask.

All you had to do was buff Malacath a bit, add 1 more Minor named debuff to front/back bar of Monomyth, lower Warmask duration to 20s-30s, and call it a day... With hopefuly some consideration for all the other mythics you've let die to be buffed in a future patch... But nooooo, your flawed spreadsheets dictate everything you do.

Sigh... What is with your ongoing effort to make your game devoid of any meaningful and interesting choices?

Here's a thought, why not release it in the state it was at 20% where your minimal PTS feedback was met with positivity for once, and if it proved to be a bit too strong, peal back the % to 18, then 17, then 16 until it got to a point you were happy with, utilize "damage done to monsters" and "with Battlespirit active". What is with your hammer over chisel, then abandon the item/skill for 6 years approach?! We're tired of it.

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

Honestly... minor berserk is not so bad if, like me, you just don't have that. I know that 15% + 5% !== 20%, but it's still good.

Wish it was working as described though, because at the moment, minor berserk is nowhere to be found.

Yeah like I said, it really does nothing but keep things the same in PvP, while nerfing PvE. Who asked for this to be nerfed in PvE? Seriously.

I swear they just want us running the same handful of sets and class combinations to reduce their work load because they can't fathom actually balancing 500+ sets, 5000+ skills (including Scribing), and 100s of class combinations.